Unearthed Arcana: Fighter Archetypes [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

MinotaurWarrior

2016-12-05, 02:53 PM

I really like the arcane archer, at least in feeling.

The Knight and Samurai felt a little bit too many like their class features were competing with feats. That being said, I'd definitely be interested in playing a Knight.

I just don't like the sharpshooter. It feels like a hollow excuse to add bonus action longbow attacks. Why did we need this?

I guess that's really my biggest complaint overall. Aside from the arcane archer, I don't really feel like I needed this UA to play any of these sorts of character concepts.

Nerdynick

2016-12-05, 03:29 PM

Yeah. I felt like they got a little lazy on this one. Three of the four archetypes have the Rapid Strike feature.

Arcane archer I like. Though I would like to see more interaction between the arrows and spellcasting features. Don't really know how to do that without reskinning EK though.

Knight is obviously focused on lockdown. I echo above feelings that they're competing with several feats.

Samurai has some cool stuff. And I normally hate renditions of eastern things in D&D. But it's pretty solid looking.

Sharpshooter seems solid, but not particularly interesting. All about shooting more arrows more effectively.

Tanarii

2016-12-05, 03:42 PM

So ... 2 ranger subclasses and 2 paladin subclass? /throwflamebait

Seriously though, the Sharpshooter subclass strikes me as the perfect fix for the overpowered Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert Feats. Ditch the feats, introduce the subclass option for Fighters ... Voila! All is well once more in the kingdom of 5e.

Edit: Apparently there was another thread about this labeled "1st Unearthed Arcana of December?" that I didn't notice... whoops.
That was a complaint thread that it's not up. Yours is a link to it in the first post once it's actually up. Totally different things. :smallamused:

Joe the Rat

2016-12-05, 03:55 PM

For now I will not lament and lambast the use of Knight (noble variant background) and Samurai (Noble / noble variant background) as archetype names.

General: Two skills? I know that's on par with the other UAs, but methinks two skills plus this load of features is a bit heavy. Seems like either this should have been one plus language, or samurai got screwed. Also, it seems like each class UA is done with a common ability theme (new dice pools, aura effects; the 3/rest versions of feats and other abilities and trade-advantage-for-bonus-action-attack-bite-me-GWM, as seen here).

Arcane Archer is the real winner here for me. Limited force arrow, spell effects on said force arrow (personally, I'd rather see this be imbued onto existing ammo, but enh), and the really cool ability to provide ammunition to anyone who can reach you in the next minute (Conjured arrows can be used by anyone). The 2 shots /rest (plus 1 whenever after 15... THIS would have been a better model for the everful ki/sorc point caps) feels limiting - on average, you get 1 magic arrow/battle. After that, you're just an archer who never runs out of ammo.

Knight makes a good sticky tank, with a good tank sticky options and short-use Feat-Lite Sentinel (which makes the feat half-redundant - you can always get 0 move from OA with the Feat). extra reactions is what really sells it.

Samurai It's like Eldritch Knight, only instead of 1/3 Caster, he's 1/3 Barbarian! Seriously, this is a decent focused warrior who gets a little extra mileage out of Wisdom. Each use of fighting spirit is good for two rounds of attacks (and doesn't give advantage like Reckless Attack). At higher levels (and with action surge), that's a lot of advantage rolls. I kind of like it. I would use it.

Sharpshooter Part-time Feats, the archetype. Sharpshooter AND Crossbow Expert! On the plus side, at 19 he can almost empty a quiver in 12 seconds: 4 attacks + Snap shot + rapid strike + 4 attack action surge = 10 on round 1, down to 9 (no snap shot) for round 2. I would have liked some more trick shooting, but I guess that's more a Rogue thing (cough, cough, wotc!).

ad_hoc

2016-12-05, 04:50 PM

Arcane Archer: I like this one the most. It needs better progression. More magic arrows/short rest and higher damage as you level. The 2 to start is fine and they could even lower the damage to 2d4 to make room for a gradual progression like the Battlemaster.

Knight: This is mostly fine. The rules are a bit convoluted and clumsy. I don't really have an interest in a mounted character but it's fine for there to be one.

Samurai: I don't like that they get resistance to damage. Samurai in movies, which is what this is supposed to emulate, are usually depicted as quick to strike and skillful at dodging/parrying. Most combat in Samurai movies are over very quickly, they don't absorb blows, they just die.

Sharpshooter: I don't like it. I don't think there should be abilities to remove cover and disadvantage for ranged in melee.

Foxhound438

2016-12-05, 05:02 PM

rooneg

2016-12-05, 05:07 PM

Knight: This is mostly fine. The rules are a bit convoluted and clumsy. I don't really have an interest in a mounted character but it's fine for there to be one.

Honestly, I think the mounted combat bits of the Knight are almost certainly going to be window dressing that basically never gets used in play. Assuming a standard D&D campaign where most of the group doesn't ride a horse you're almost always going to be picking that class for the other abilities. The fact that it's good on a horse is just there because in the real world Knights rode horses.

DrDinocrusher

2016-12-05, 05:07 PM

Super disappointed we didn't get any kind of a duelist or gladiator for the fighter and I think we only needed one ranged option but overall pretty pleased. I'm really looking forward to Arcane Archer being AL legal, it seems like a really fun archetype.

Llama513

2016-12-05, 05:12 PM

I personally feel that 2 arcane shots per rest is fine, since they have so much impact with the tack on effects. Just wish they had something else for when they run out, a normal "difficult" combat can be expected to last something like 6 rounds, and past the first 2 there's nothing the archetype does for you.

I feel the same, the thing that comes to mind would be the possibility of adding your INT to your arrow damage or having it where you add half your Proficiency Mod to ranged weapon attack damage and have that at 3rd possibly, but I'm not sure when to give them that, or if that is to good, but I do feel that it needs something for when you are out of Arcane Arrows, before you get Conjure Arrows which I think should have become a Bonus Action at 15 as it fits not only are you always ready with a Arcane Arrow you always have normal arrows as well.

Beleriphon

2016-12-05, 05:37 PM

Samurai: I don't like that they get resistance to damage. Samurai in movies, which is what this is supposed to emulate, are usually depicted as quick to strike and skillful at dodging/parrying. Most combat in Samurai movies are over very quickly, they don't absorb blows, they just die.

I think its more like the heroic last stand that many samurai movies tend to have. The samurai is full of more arrows than meat, but manages to make the final blow that avenges their lord before finally keeling over dead.

Sigreid

2016-12-05, 05:43 PM

I liked the arcane archer and knight. I don't care for the samurai. the sharpshooter is ok, not great.

thepsyker

2016-12-05, 05:43 PM

Honestly, I think the mounted combat bits of the Knight are almost certainly going to be window dressing that basically never gets used in play. Assuming a standard D&D campaign where most of the group doesn't ride a horse you're almost always going to be picking that class for the other abilities. The fact that it's good on a horse is just there because in the real world Knights rode horses.

Yeah, pretty much all of the Knights abilities work just fine on foot although Rapid Strike synergizes nicely with the Mounted feats granting advantage.

Edit:For Acane Archer maybe if they got 2+Int mod Arcane Shots a rest that would give them a bit more of their core feature to play with.

Edit edit:Or maybe for their 7th level ability allow them to make 20 magic arrows of the damage type of their choice. They gave Wizards cantrips because casting spells was part of the draw of the class, well shooting magic arrows is part of the draw of an Arcane Archer so why not enable them to do so even if the magic in question is just switching up the damage type?

Maxilian

2016-12-05, 06:04 PM

I like the Arcane Archer, not great, but quite nice and flavorful, knight is nice and it works well, Sharpshooter well... i have mixed feelings here, its not bad at all, its good, and its even better when you see that it basically makes some feats not necessary for you that you may normally take with a build like this, so you have much more ASI/feats that you could use instead.

ad_hoc

2016-12-05, 06:04 PM

I think its more like the heroic last stand that many samurai movies tend to have. The samurai is full of more arrows than meat, but manages to make the final blow that avenges their lord before finally keeling over dead.

I suppose we have watched entirely different Samurai movies. I didn't know that was a thing, the ability makes more sense now I suppose.

My influence is more Seven Samurai and the like. Do you have any examples of the sorts of movies where the Samurai get hurt a lot and keep on going?

vasharanpaladin

2016-12-05, 06:16 PM

I'm thinking the resistance thing may be in reference to feats such as Ben Kei and his standing death. Which is still a bit off, as Ben Kei was a sohei, not a samurai...

Spellbreaker26

2016-12-05, 06:28 PM

I suppose we have watched entirely different Samurai movies. I didn't know that was a thing, the ability makes more sense now I suppose.

My influence is more Seven Samurai and the like. Do you have any examples of the sorts of movies where the Samurai get hurt a lot and keep on going?

Any anime ever...

But seriously, in Seven Samurai that exact thing happens at the end.

Temperjoke

2016-12-05, 06:29 PM

Well, they did post a blurb about it being more about media and not historical.

I dunno, I'm not terribly thrilled about these. I mean, like it's been said, they're just taking feats and making a subclass based on them. Part of the problem is that Fighters were pretty well balanced as far as their options go, you could flavor the base fighter any way you wanted. I guess giving more ranged options to the Fighter isn't a bad thing, but at the same time, the ranged options here almost feel like two halves of the same class instead of fighter subclasses.

Plaguescarred

2016-12-05, 06:43 PM

They're really interesting Archetypes I like the Knight best and salute the 4E Fighter marking ability for more sticky defender type.

Anderlith

2016-12-05, 07:27 PM

I love the Arcane Archer. I feel like it needs just a bit more. Conjuring arrows is a nice ribbon. I wish the Knight didn't get mounted combat, not all knights have to be jousters. Don't really care about the other two but I think they're fine.

ad_hoc

2016-12-05, 07:53 PM

Any anime ever...

But seriously, in Seven Samurai that exact thing happens at the end.

I don't watch anime, probably why I have a different perspective.

I don't know what you are referring to in Seven Samurai. It's not Kikuchiyo's death is it? He is shot once but has enough strength to run through the bandit before dying.

Are there any cases in the movie where someone gets shot by bullet or arrow and lives? Certainly not by more than 1. It has been a while since I have seen it so it is possible I am wrong. Still, the vast majority of combat is resolved by one touch.

This is common with many live action Samurai movies.

I think I will tweet Mearls to see where the inspiration is coming from. I would have thought it would be live action, but maybe I am just out of touch in my old age and over the top anime is all the rage instead.

Anderlith

2016-12-05, 07:59 PM

So i dont watch anime, i hate shounen stuff but just knowing pop culture, i can tell you...

Fu from Full Metal Alchemist. Lan Fan too
Rurouni Kenshin
Samurai Shamploo

pwykersotz

2016-12-05, 08:02 PM

I think I will tweet Mearls to see where the inspiration is coming from. I would have thought it would be live action, but maybe I am just out of touch in my old age and over the top anime is all the rage instead.

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/am-i-out-of-touch-no-its-the-children-who-are-wrong.jpg

WickerNipple

2016-12-05, 08:16 PM

Arcane Archer: 2x per short rest is not enough. When those are gone you're a fighter with the arcana skill. The effects are interesting, but not when compared to battle master's getting 4-6 uses.

Knight: Glad something got 4e marking. Everything else is awkward, competes with feats or is horsey fluff.

Samurai: Only decent one, and the biggest selling point is honestly the saving throw.

Sharpshooter: 3x "There's a feat for that". 3x "Uses a bonus action" This class is utter garbage.

The only real use I see for either Knight or Sharpshooter is because you happen to play on a table that doesn't allow feats but somehow does allow unearthed arcana. That has to be the rarest of rare tables.

And finally... who is Rapid Strike actually supposed to appeal to? Great weapon fighters want/need Advantage, two weapon fighters and crossbow fighters already do this, and shield fighters already spent their bonus knocking you prone (which is why they have advantage in the first place, duh)... so... who? Bad fighters that didn't know they could do those other things?

Ziegander

2016-12-05, 08:27 PM

And finally... who is Rapid Strike actually supposed to appeal to? Great weapon fighters want/need Advantage, two weapon fighters and crossbow fighters already do this, and shield fighters already spent their bonus knocking you prone (which is why they have advantage in the first place, duh)... so... who? Bad fighters that didn't know they could do those other things?

If you subscribe to the theory that Knight and Sharpshooter were designed for games without feats in mind (kind of a stretch to me, because what table allows UA material but not an option legitimized in the core player's manual?), then Rapid Strike is objectively better than Advantage for great weapon and sword and board fighters. Otherwise? Yeah... I don't know...

rooneg

2016-12-05, 08:35 PM

If you subscribe to the theory that Knight and Sharpshooter were designed for games without feats in mind (kind of a stretch to me, because what table allows UA material but not an option legitimized in the core player's manual?), then Rapid Strike is objectively better than Advantage for great weapon and sword and board fighters. Otherwise? Yeah... I don't know...

Umm, it's playtest material. Presumably the plan is to put it in a book some day, or at least some of it in a book some day. You don't need to assume it's for "allows UA but not feats" tables because it being part of UA is a transitional state, not the end goal.

(Now you can argue that it's going to get crappy playtesting because who allows UA but not feats, but even then it'll get some testing because not everyone agrees about relative value of core class features vs feats, and even if the amount of playtesting is low it'll still get discussed, ad nauseam, on various and sundry internet sites, and if you don't think WotC reads those posts to see what the internet collective has decided about their new toys you're crazy.)

Llama513

2016-12-05, 08:37 PM

I personally like the idea of Knight, when combined with Orc and grabbing Mage Slayer, Sentinel and Mobile as the ultimate shut down of enemy mages and movement

Anderlith

2016-12-05, 08:39 PM

I think 2 + Int Arrows a day would fix Arcane Archer, maybe.

Llama513

2016-12-05, 08:41 PM

I think 2 + Int Arrows a day would fix Arcane Archer, maybe.

I like that idea, it definitely gives more uses, and gives an incentive to have higher int which makes sense with the arcane tie to the class

thepsyker

2016-12-05, 08:43 PM

I think 2 + Int Arrows a day would fix Arcane Archer, maybe.
That would max them at 7 a day, as is assuming two short rests they get 6 a day and even more after 15th.

Llama513

2016-12-05, 08:47 PM

That would max them at 7 a day, as is assuming two short rests they get 6 a day and even more after 15th.

Exactly they end up with about the same number of uses a day, and allows you access to your archetype more, which is what most peoples complaint about it was, I think it is a really good fix for the class as you still get the 15th level feature

thepsyker

2016-12-05, 08:53 PM

Exactly they end up with about the same number of uses a day, and allows you access to your archetype more, which is what most peoples complaint about it was, I think it is a really good fix for the class as you still get the 15th level feature

But it only lets one access the Archytype more if you have a 20 in Int. Anything less and you are in the same uses as before if you have an 18 Int and less uses if your Int is any lower, plus you have the opportunity cost and delay of having to pump Int to get to those results.

WickerNipple

2016-12-05, 08:56 PM

Umm, it's playtest material. Presumably the plan is to put it in a book some day, or at least some of it in a book some day. You don't need to assume it's for "allows UA but not feats" tables because it being part of UA is a transitional state, not the end goal.

Meh, even if you ignore the transitional state -> Who forbids feats but welcomes splatbooks with open arms?

MinotaurWarrior

2016-12-05, 09:00 PM

Does Knight make savage attacker good?

Arcane Archer: 2x per short rest is not enough. When those are gone you're a fighter with the arcana skill. The effects are interesting, but not when compared to battle master's getting 4-6 uses.

It's also lower total damage and you can waste the arrow on a miss.

I think the class needs minor magic arrows roughly equivalent to OHT.

Sharpshooter: 3x "There's a feat for that". 3x "Uses a bonus action" This class is utter garbage.

The important parts stack, and there are few better uses for a bonus action from 600ft away.

And finally... who is Rapid Strike actually supposed to appeal to? Great weapon fighters want/need Advantage, two weapon fighters and crossbow fighters already do this, and shield fighters already spent their bonus knocking you prone (which is why they have advantage in the first place, duh)... so... who? Bad fighters that didn't know they could do those other things?

Shield master ain't so great it's necessary. I could imagine playing a sword and board knight without it. But yeah, it's way too deep into the class. And it makes no sense on Samurai, who best fit with either TWF or GWM, thematically.

Llama513

2016-12-05, 09:00 PM

But it only lets one access the Archytype more if you have a 20 in Int. Anything less and you are in the same uses as before if you have an 18 Int and less uses if your Int is any lower, plus you have the opportunity cost and delay of having to pump Int to get to those results.
That is fair, but as you are an archer you have to worry less about stat spread, you are a fighter, so if you need to you can pump your Int, I really like the idea it fits thematically and you have the methods needed to get your Int to 20 as you are a fighter

Which actually makes sense as you grow better as a fighter and improve your abilities you get better at making arrows and can thus make more.

Ryuu Hayato

2016-12-05, 09:03 PM

The Champion fighter emulate samurai better than the new Samurai archetype.

LVL 3 ability - Samurai archetype wins. It's solid lvl 3 ability, even only using 3 times per rest, and represent very well their warrior spirit.

LVL 7 ability - Samurai archetype ability is really, really bad ability. You'll have everything that you need on the backgroung. Compare with Champion lvl 7 ability, up to +3 on all dex, con, str checks. Plus 3 on 14 DEX is equal to have 20 DEX on the iniciative and checks (something that emulate much better the samurai speed); or have 16 in DEX is better than a person with 20 in the checks.

LVL 10 ability - Well, it's a great feature! Everything that a fighter need is saving on WIS. But, it's a lvl 10 ability. You can have resilient earlier. Champion have second fighting style, that means Archery or Defense. One more time a DEX 16 fighter can compete with 20 DEX fighter, only losing on damage roll by 2 points per hit. The second fighting style emulate much better the samurai versatility.

LVL 15 ability - Bad feature. You can have other things that use your bonus attack with more consistence, like polearm. Champion Crit rolls on 18 is better. As a lore, crit represent their extend training to be a perfect warrior.

LVL 18 ability - Well, it's a great feature, but Champion shine so much with Survivor. And really, what express more resilience? A fighter that regain HP after be attacked or a fighter that have one more turn to attack or use second wind?

Samurai archetype is good, but need somewhat buff. When you looking for a real samurai (a str warrior with some dex on the package), you'll look to the champion. But, if looking for a pop samurai (like kenshin himura), that focus DEX over STR, the new archetype will be better.

rooneg

2016-12-05, 09:05 PM

Meh, even if you ignore the transitional state -> Who forbids feats but welcomes splatbooks with open arms?

I could see it with the right group. A bunch of new players, so you want to keep complexity down, but one guy who just fell in love with this new class...

WickerNipple

2016-12-05, 09:14 PM

The important parts stack, and there are few better uses for a bonus action from 600ft away.

How do you have advantage from 600ft away unless you have the Sharpshooter feat? (Since they did leave out 'that important part'.) And if you have that feat, why are you giving up advantage for one measly attack?

I could see it with the right group. A bunch of new players, so you want to keep complexity down, but one guy who just fell in love with this new class...

I'd really rather our printed material not be aimed at such a tiny minuscule share of the audience.

CantigThimble

2016-12-05, 09:14 PM

Meh, even if you ignore the transitional state -> Who forbids feats but welcomes splatbooks with open arms?

Well, maybe they allow feats, they just don't like the "mandatory" fighting style feats.

thepsyker

2016-12-05, 09:16 PM

That is fair, but as you are an archer you have to worry less about stat spread, you are a fighter, so if you need to you can pump your Int, I really like the idea it fits thematically and you have the methods needed to get your Int to 20 as you are a fighter

Which actually makes sense as you grow better as a fighter and improve your abilities you get better at making arrows and can thus make more.
If peoples complaint is that they dont get enough uses of Arcane Shot as is, making it so that you need to pump Int to get at best 1 extra use doesnt really address the issie. I would agree that connecting usage to Int seems a good thematic fit, but think that 2+Int mod per day is still to few. 2+Int mod per short/long rest would probably be too many, maybe Int mod per short/long rest minimum of 1? That would top out at 15, but only with a fairly decent attribute investment. Still sounds a bit high. Maybe Prof mod + Int mod a day, that would max you at 11 uses a day. A bit more of a pool to play with so you can use it more than once or twice a fight and arent always falling back on Ever Ready Arrow

Anderlith

2016-12-05, 09:17 PM

I originally meant per short rest oops.

Or give them as many uses/refreshes as BM dice

Llama513

2016-12-05, 09:19 PM

Maybe Prof mod + Int mod a day, that would max you at 11 uses a day. A bit more of a pool to play with so you can use it more than once or twice a fight and arent always falling back on Ever Ready Arrow
Thats it, I like that, then you have the thematic involvement of Int, but it still gets better as you progress as a fighter, and even if you don't have any plus to Int you end up having the same number of uses as a battle master has manuevers, I think that is the perfect solution

MinotaurWarrior

2016-12-05, 09:29 PM

How do you have advantage from 600ft away unless you have the Sharpshooter feat? (Since they did leave out 'that important part'.) And if you have that feat, why are you giving up advantage for one measly attack?

What?

A Sharpshooter with Sharpshooter can stack the bonus damage. + 10 + 2 + 1/2 level. The key feature stacks with the feat. That's my point. The only redundancy is with ignoring cover.

And there's like a thousand ways to have advantage by level 15. For the sake of argument, let's just imagine that there's a wolf totem barbarian engaging your target. And you give up advantage on one attack for a second attack because that's strictly better. (%ToHit)^2

MaxWilson

2016-12-05, 09:31 PM

LVL 7 ability - Samurai archetype ability is really, really bad ability. You'll have everything that you need on the backgroung. Compare with Champion lvl 7 ability, up to +3 on all dex, con, str saves. Plus 3 on 14 DEX is equal to have 20 DEX on the iniciative and checks (something that emulate much better the samurai speed); or have 16 in DEX is better than a person with 20 in the checks.

Champion 7 ability doesn't affect saves at all. Unless the DM changes it deliberately, it only affects ability checks where you don't have proficiency already--rolling initiative, getting free of Web, etc.

==================================================

What?

A Sharpshooter with Sharpshooter can stack the bonus damage. + 10 + 2 + 1/2 level. The key feature stacks with the feat. That's my point. The only redundancy is with ignoring cover.

And there's like a thousand ways to have advantage by level 15. For the sake of argument, let's just imagine that there's a wolf totem barbarian engaging your target. And you give up advantage on one attack for a second attack because that's strictly better. (%ToHit)^2

Wolf Totem Barbarian only gives advantage to melee attack rolls, not ranged. (That's why it's lame.)

Assume instead that it's dark and that the enemy is illuminated with a torch. (I.e. you are heavily obscured by darkness and he is not.) That's the easier way to get advantage at range.

WickerNipple

2016-12-05, 09:42 PM

What?

A Sharpshooter with Sharpshooter can stack the bonus damage. + 10 + 2 + 1/2 level. The key feature stacks with the feat. That's my point. The only redundancy is with ignoring cover.

And there's like a thousand ways to have advantage by level 15. For the sake of argument, let's just imagine that there's a wolf totem barbarian engaging your target. And you give up advantage on one attack for a second attack because that's strictly better. (%ToHit)^2

My apologies, I was putting your comment in with the crowd that sees the class for it's use w/o feats. Yes, there is definitely a nice use for it once you get to the end of the road.

MonkeyIke

2016-12-05, 09:43 PM

Just by glancing at it, I do like some of the features that the Samurai brings, but it basically makes TWF obsolete because of the bonus action economy. Not to mention it ruins any multi-class synergy with monk if someone is choosing to roll a more sohei type character. Although I guess their depiction of samurai are more two-handed since it is more commonly depicted in cinema. A shame that their depiction covers more on the armored noble side rather than the unarmored wandering ronin/vagabond type that I personally enjoy more but meh. Arcane Archer looks cool too.

MinotaurWarrior

2016-12-05, 09:43 PM

Wolf Totem Barbarian only gives advantage to melee attack rolls, not ranged. (That's why it's lame.)

Assume instead that it's dark and that the enemy is illuminated with a torch. (I.e. you are heavily obscured by darkness and he is not.) That's the easier way to get advantage at range.

Ah, right.

Finback

2016-12-05, 11:52 PM

I'm thrilled that the Knight is back, especially for marking, but.. the mounted stuff really doesn't float my boat. Most of the time, combat isn't happening in areas where having a mount is feasible (unless they're Small, riding a Medium creature), so it becomes a waste of a feature. Arcane Archer is also a great one - I can see it being popular with those races who naturally have tendencies towards some magic skills. I'm also a little surprised this doesn't also get offered as a ranger sub-class, because in my mind, it would fit in quite well there too.

Samurai, eh. It's just there. Maybe I need to review it some more. Sharp Shooter - I can see potential for this with using thrown weapons like axes.

Submortimer

2016-12-06, 01:23 AM

And finally... who is Rapid Strike actually supposed to appeal to? Great weapon fighters want/need Advantage, two weapon fighters and crossbow fighters already do this, and shield fighters already spent their bonus knocking you prone (which is why they have advantage in the first place, duh)... so... who? Bad fighters that didn't know they could do those other things?

Well, hang on a second: assuming you're not using your bonus action for anything else (which a great weapon fighter is likely not to) getting two attacks is OBJECTIVELY better than advantage on one.

As well, it comes pretty late, but I could see combining this with enough levels of Barbaraian so as to get reckless attack, and then you're giving up advantage on one attack to get all the benefits of frenzy without all the exhaustion.

Coffee_Dragon

2016-12-06, 03:50 AM

Design nitpicks:

Arcane Arrow should perhaps last until the beginning of your next turn. As it is, you can't use it for a Ready action to snipe someone. And no, you can't hand it to someone.

Archer's Lore is wonky because it contains three skills already on the fighter skill list, so if the archer already has any of those, they get that many skills of their free choice. I feel abilities like this should contain some kind of "you can't pick a skill you already have if you could pick another from this list" clause, or that should be a general rule.

Ever-Ready Arrow is potentially wonky because it requires you to track a progress bar on a minute scale. Would it be so much different to just say you regain one use at the beginning of combat if you have none?

Implacable Mark and Defender's Blade are wonky because they violate the "one reaction" principle.

Noble Cavalry is wonky because as pointed out, as written you can exchance two skills for one language, which nobody should do ever.

I assume the "1 foot" in Hold the Line is meant to stop the target from even leaving the square they started in.

Unbreakable Will's "if you have this then you get that" clause makes me wonder if Slippery Mind should be updated to have it also.

Strength Before Death is a little weird... you get mauled, say "Excuse me", pull a Potion of Immunity to Bludgeoning from your utility belt, drink it, and then didn't get mauled after all?

Steady Aim continues the tradition of cover-related abilities to just throw out the effects of cover.

Careful Eyes again has two fighter skills on its list of three.

What exactly does the "no reactions" clause of Close-Quarters Shooting represent? You wave your bow in your enemy's face in an extremely distracting manner?

I wonder if Samurai 3-5 is now the preferred fighter dip for rogues (other than maybe Swashbucklers).

Ryuu Hayato

2016-12-06, 04:13 AM

Champion 7 ability doesn't affect saves at all. Unless the DM changes it deliberately, it only affects ability checks where you don't have proficiency already--rolling initiative, getting free of Web, etc.
I don't have seen that mistake. I was trying to say that is a check. Thanks! :smallbiggrin:

X3r4ph

2016-12-06, 05:29 AM

A lot have mentioned the Arcane Archer's proactive arrows is a problem. Compared to the battlemaster which can use super dice reactive it seems underwhelming. I don't mind this at all. Playing a different archetype should feel different even though it might be less optimal. Also it reminds me of using spells.
That said. It really needs something else to balance the less that optimal mechanic. Spell progression comes to mind... or maybe invocation progression. It could be the first archetype to get 1/3 invocation progression or something.

Zalabim

2016-12-06, 06:13 AM

Arcane Archers don't get a new level 10 feature. They learn another arcane shot, but there's no actual feature there.

Arcane Shots deal less extra damage than BM superiority dice, on average, so the effects better be worth the lower damage as well as taking a bonus action. Some of them are clearly too weak, but others look very worthwhile.

Samurais can also use bows, and are really amazing with the Sharpshooter feat because of it.

If there's a persistent state giving you advantage, then your bonus action attack from Rapid Strike is going to have advantage anyway. Then it's using a bonus action to make an attack without advantage if you have advantage on your attacks.

Sharpshooters have great burst if you still take Sharpshooter and have sufficient accuracy boosts to make it worth using, otherwise Samurai Sharpshooters are generally better at this thing.

Steady Aim is really weak for a long time. Because it's also limited to only a single enemy, takes a bonus action, and lasts just one round, it may be really weak at any time.

Close quarters shooting means you don't have to take Crossbow Expert, except for the bonus action attack, which is less valuable once you also have rapid strikes. So the Sharpshooter is a pretty good archer with no feat investment, but barely gets improved by archery feats and may not be as good an archer as a Samurai that does take archery feats.

Sharpshooter's thing is better with outside effects that boost accuracy, while Samurai's thing is better with outside effects that boost damage.

Both Samurai and Sharpshooter get a per attack boosting ability, so they're worth little at level 3 and worth a great deal at level 20, compared to the BM and now AA's resource abilities. Both might be better done with single strike or single shot boosting bonus actions to make comparisons more equitable at various levels, or maybe it's intentional.

Seriously, at level 3 the Sharpshooter gets +3 damage to usually four attacks per short rest thanks to action surge. That's nothing.

[EDIT:] And the Knight's mark is a fear effect. You have to actually hit them (for whatever definition of hit is) with a melee attack to mark them. You are actually there hitting them on the same round to hinder their attacks. It should not be a fear effect.

Coffee_Dragon

2016-12-06, 06:22 AM

I forgot to say it's wonky to name a class Sharpshooter when there's a feat called Sharpshooter. So, so wonky

X3r4ph

2016-12-06, 06:34 AM

I forgot to say it's wonky to name a class Sharpshooter when there's a feat called Sharpshooter. So, so wonky

Yeah, why not Deepwood Sniper? Geez WotC. Sloppy.

Gwendol

2016-12-06, 07:44 AM

Arcane archer looks rather weak to me. Arcane shot is a nice and interesting feature, but magic arrow is too few and won't scale well. The arcane archer needs spells, or more scalable features (like new shot options available at higher level).

Knight is mixing marking and the 3e Bulwark of Defence feature (one of the better class abilities). I like the idea, but the way it is written it's not entirely clear to me how they want this to play. The class allows for some interesting synergies with other features/feats and is somewhat redundant with others. This class feels the least ready. Mounted combat feature is pretty much a joke and does (nearly) nothing to improve or promote the use of mounted combat.

Samurai. Don't care much for this. Doesn't add anything that the Battlemaster or Champion can't do better (in terms of emulating a samurai).

Sharpshooter. Not bad, but then again a ranged battlemaster with feats isn't bad either.

Arcane archer and Knight are two archetypes I'd like to see progress into real classes. The other two not so much.
Compared with the cleric and druid UA's this was a lot less interesting and not developed enough.

Tanarii

2016-12-06, 09:53 AM

I assume the "1 foot" in Hold the Line is meant to stop the target from even leaving the square they started in.I imagine it's because D&D 5e makes no assumption you'll play with squares, but wanted to make it clear that it doesn't apply to standing up or dancing or fighting in your spot. ie movement means using movement. There have been arguments about it when they didn't make that clear in the past.

Marcotix

2016-12-06, 10:25 AM

jaappleton

2016-12-06, 01:09 PM

Love the Arcane Archer, because there's nothing else like it. It's magic without spellcasting. Nothing else in 5E really exists like that.

I'm REALLY glad none of them have Superiority Dice. I've seen too many archetypes with that, I was worried that'd become a crutch for the design team.

Foxhound438

2016-12-06, 03:02 PM

Or give them as many uses/refreshes as BM dice

I would have to veto this if I were on the design team, because the arcane shots have much more valuable effects than maneuvers do, and don't offer a save to resist the effects.

Llama513

2016-12-06, 03:05 PM

I would have to veto this if I were on the design team, because the arcane shots have much more valuable effects than maneuvers do, and don't offer a save to resist the effects.

An idea is to have the uses of Arcane Arrows be equal to your proficiency modifier times per short rest, this way you start at the level we have now, and over the time get up to the number of uses as Battle Master, and this way you progress as you go up in your class showing your growing ability to both use and create the arrows

eastmabl

2016-12-06, 04:07 PM

They're really interesting Archetypes I like the Knight best and salute the 4E Fighter marking ability for more sticky defender type.

It's also in line with the 3.5 knight, which in retrospect was a proto-4E class.

RulesJD

2016-12-06, 04:21 PM

Ziegander

2016-12-06, 04:27 PM

Good build using Knight:

Knight 3/Sorc 1/Swashbuckler +

Use Booming Blade + Impeccable Mark for off-turn attacks.

Not as OP as the Sentinel/BM build, but pretty close and less investment needed because you don't need Sentinel anymore.

Even better if you can pair it with a Flaming Sphere/Moonbeam to force movement somehow.

I might be missing something, but what makes this good? Wouldn't the enemy just not move? It's got two compelling reasons to not move now, Booming Blade and your reaction attack that deals extra damage. I guess if that's the point... sure, but I don't see how that's particularly powerful.

Llama513

2016-12-06, 04:37 PM

I might be missing something, but what makes this good? Wouldn't the enemy just not move? It's got two compelling reasons to not move now, Booming Blade and your reaction attack that deals extra damage. I guess if that's the point... sure, but I don't see how that's particularly powerful.

You said it yourself the point is so they don't move, that's the whole point of the archetype, and if the enemy is dumb enough to move you break them, your goal is too keep enemies from moving away from or attacking anyone that isn't you, you are the tank, you draw enemy attention to yourself and away from the casters, your job is to keep things from moving away from you.

Flashy

2016-12-06, 04:46 PM

An idea is to have the uses of Arcane Arrows be equal to your proficiency modifier times per short rest, this way you start at the level we have now, and over the time get up to the number of uses as Battle Master, and this way you progress as you go up in your class showing your growing ability to both use and create the arrows

This sort of shafts the late game Battlemaster though. An Arcane Archer is using (generally) stronger abilities the same number of times per short rest, starting every encounter with at least one use, dealing more damage with the arrows than the battlemaster can with the superiority dice, and generally making the battlemaster feel like a sad sap.

It's hard to make the arrows as freely available as superiority dice without making them just feel like refluffed superiority dice.

Ziegander

2016-12-06, 05:02 PM

You said it yourself the point is so they don't move, that's the whole point of the archetype, and if the enemy is dumb enough to move you break them, your goal is too keep enemies from moving away from or attacking anyone that isn't you, you are the tank, you draw enemy attention to yourself and away from the casters, your job is to keep things from moving away from you.

Sorry, I misunderstood, I thought you were saying the build was borderline overpowered. I'd argue it's just an interesting build, neither over or underpowered, just interesting.

It's hard to make the arrows as freely available as superiority dice without making them just feel like refluffed superiority dice.

I'd argue that they already feel that way, at least to me.

Llama513

2016-12-06, 05:07 PM

This sort of shafts the late game Battlemaster though. An Arcane Archer is using (generally) stronger abilities the same number of times per short rest, starting every encounter with at least one use, dealing more damage with the arrows than the battlemaster can with the superiority dice, and generally making the battlemaster feel like a sad sap.

It's hard to make the arrows as freely available as superiority dice without making them just feel like refluffed superiority dice.

This is fair, but you also don't have six uses until level 17, and the variety of the battle master maneuvers is much higher, and the damage is the same at the end, the arrow will average more, but both enter combat with the dice ready at that point in time, if need be I could also seeing having the Arcane arrow damage grow like the Battle master dice. It's a tough position as you are having to balance the damage of the Arcane Arrows against the massive versatility of the Maneuvers. You can also use more than one maneuver a turn, as using the arrow requires a bonus action, where as maneuvers are just part of the attack action, allowing you to do a lot more with your maneuvers faster, and with Martial Adept you can have as many extra superiority dice as you get feats. Which if you aren't human is 7 more superiority dice, taking you up to 13 per short rest, and getting one back every time you roll initiative

RulesJD

2016-12-06, 05:09 PM

I might be missing something, but what makes this good? Wouldn't the enemy just not move? It's got two compelling reasons to not move now, Booming Blade and your reaction attack that deals extra damage. I guess if that's the point... sure, but I don't see how that's particularly powerful.

I actually meant to hit the target, then move away 5ft. Target has to trigger BB to get into range, and because it will eventually be within 5ft of you but not yet adjacent (why they used 1ft increments I don't know but it has to at some point be within 5ft but not yet fully adjacent) thus you immediately get your Reaction attack (another chance for off-turn Sneak Attack. Ironically you could possibly do this 3 times with Action Surge -> Readied Action (after the enemies turn is over which is when Marked sneak attack would happen) -> Booming Blade. This is due to the marked attack not 'really' using your reaction.

Llama513

2016-12-06, 05:09 PM

Sorry, I misunderstood, I thought you were saying the build was borderline overpowered. I'd argue it's just an interesting build, neither over or underpowered, just interesting.

I'd argue that they already feel that way, at least to me.

That's how I have looked at them a little bit, its just that the focus of the arrow is different, the arrow is more for adding damage, while the Superiority dice is more about having all kinds of options in combat, both damage and utility, which is why you get so many more options that you know

Ziegander

2016-12-06, 05:19 PM

I actually meant to hit the target, then move away 5ft. Target has to trigger BB to get into range, and because it will eventually be within 5ft of you but not yet adjacent (why they used 1ft increments I don't know but it has to at some point be within 5ft but not yet fully adjacent) thus you immediately get your Reaction attack (another chance for off-turn Sneak Attack. Ironically you could possibly do this 3 times with Action Surge -> Readied Action (after the enemies turn is over which is when Marked sneak attack would happen) -> Booming Blade. This is due to the marked attack not 'really' using your reaction.

Ah, a much better explanation, but still slightly risky as by moving away you're also provoking an Opportunity Attack against the enemy once every round.

CantigThimble

2016-12-06, 05:54 PM

That's how I have looked at them a little bit, its just that the focus of the arrow is different, the arrow is more for adding damage, while the Superiority dice is more about having all kinds of options in combat, both damage and utility, which is why you get so many more options that you know

I don't know where you would get that idea. The control effects of the arcane shots are far more powerful than the 2d6 damage. Limiting an enemy's vision to 30 feet is great against spellcasters. Halving an enemy's weapon damage is fantastic against beasts, giants or even dragons. You get a wider variety of maneuvers and more uses but I think that any given maneuver offers much less control than an arcane shot.

Temperjoke

2016-12-06, 06:11 PM

I will say, it's interesting that they didn't use the same dice mechanic that their other fighter UAs have used.

MinotaurWarrior

2016-12-06, 06:36 PM

Build thoughts:

Arcane Archer is probably best as a 3/4 level dip after Ranger 5. The Archetype is essentially dead from 4-14. I'd take Shadow and either Brutebane or one of the AoE arrows. Shadow is a decent panic button and source of advantage, while Brutebane seems like it could be huge against mainly physical bosses like a Dragon Turtle.

Knight:

Bugbear's and Kobolds both make great knights. Bugbear Knight 6 / Barb 2 / whatever can TWF with whips to make +7 advantaged attacks marking enemies from 15ft away on foot. Kobold can TWF with lances to do something similar from 10ft away, pure class. Just constantly disadvantaging enemies is a very strong ability.

I'm pretty convinced that Knights make Savage Attacker good as a high-level feat. Alternatively, can't you use warcaster polearm master and magic initiate to get a 10ft radius EB spam field?

As already noted, Knight 3/4 makes an attractive dip after Ranger 11/12.

Samurai:

Samurai 3 is a direct rival to Barbarian 2 for multiclassing rogues. I feel like barbarian still wins out, but situations vary. And now ranged rogues get something similar to the option their melee compatriots have always had.

It's also an interesting option for rangers and warlocks. I'd have fun with a warlock 2 / Samurai 3. 2x Advantaged 1d10+1d6+3 repelling EBs? Yes please. For rangers I'd either go Samurai 5 / Ranger 2 / Samurai more, or Ranger 6 / Samurai 4 / ranger more.

Sharpshooter:

I like the idea of goblin sharpshooters. The fury of the small ability makes for big attacks (you can't do less than 38 damage with a non magical longbow on your special attack), and the bonus action hide gives you an escape hatch if you got unlucky with the 3 round nova and didn't kill the ancient black dragon before it could close 600ft.

Hunter 17 / Sharpshooter 3 is better than hunter 20. lets you 1d8+1d6+5+10+4 (27) everyone in a volley twice, hitting one guy for 1d8+1d6+5+10+4+4 (31) three times (the guy you marked and then hit with horde breaker) once, and then do 27 one and 31 twice for two more turns, possibly pausing for flame arrow refill. Then you switch your bonus action to Swift Quiver, like normal.

Hunter 11 / Sharpshooter 3 / Paladin 2 can do the somewhat more elegant 1d8+1d4+5+10+4 (26) x2 / 1d8+1d6+5+10+4+4 (30) x 3 volley with divine favor, but cannot transition into Swift Quiver

Really though, ****ty fireballs are ****ty.

Hunter 6 / Sharpshooter 4 is, briefly, pretty much a better sharpshooter. I don't know what I'd do at 11 though. War cleric? Bard?

Going past ~ sharpshooter 5 and not going all the way to 20 feels wasteful to me. The archetype is reall mid-empty. The first feature and the final features are really good.

Grey Watcher

2016-12-06, 07:06 PM

Am I the only one confused as to why the Knight flavor text emphasizes mounted combat, but not only do they have no abilities to help with mounted combat? (A fast (dis)mount and falling-from-the-saddle-becoming-meh are nice and all, but don't help you actually FIGHT with the horse). In fact, the whole "You'll stand here and trade blows with me and you're going to like it" theme of the features specifically dovetails poorly with charging around all day with the mighty sword and with the mighty steed and the mighty lance.

Other first impressions: Arcane Archer is neat, can't discern balance issues without re-reading, was there a use per rest limit on their trick arrows?; Knight, flavor confusion aside, feels solid; Samurai seem both front-loaded and OP, their Super Samurai stance should probably have similar usage limits to a Barbarian's Rage, force you to choose between offense and defense, or both; Sharpshooter is just :smallconfused: .

Oh, and if you could use the Arcane Archer's homing arrow on a trick arrow that explodes on impact, you can set up "Target that explosion and fire," because who doesn't like a chance to give a nod to George Takei? :smallbiggrin:

RulesJD

2016-12-06, 07:44 PM

Ah, a much better explanation, but still slightly risky as by moving away you're also provoking an Opportunity Attack against the enemy once every round.

Nope. Swashbuckler. No Opp Attacks (and almost guaranteed Sneak Attacks each time they approach).

I am reading it further it gets worse and worse. You could literally Sneak Attack 3 times a round.

rooneg

2016-12-06, 07:57 PM

Llama513

2016-12-06, 08:38 PM

MinotaurWarrior

2016-12-06, 09:22 PM

Am I the only one confused as to why the Knight flavor text emphasizes mounted combat, but not only do they have no abilities to help with mounted combat? (A fast (dis)mount and falling-from-the-saddle-becoming-meh are nice and all, but don't help you actually FIGHT with the horse). In fact, the whole "You'll stand here and trade blows with me and you're going to like it" theme of the features specifically dovetails poorly with charging around all day with the mighty sword and with the mighty steed and the mighty lance.

Level 3-9

I'm a knight in full plate with a shield and a lance on a warhorse with barding. I zip around at 120ft/round, knocking 1-4 footsoldiers off balance each turn, and then running out of their movement range. If they're foolish enough to dash towards me and try to have me surrounded, I will cut them down as they form up, or when the cowards tries to attack my horse.

I'm not actually all that sticky, and when I am, it's just for 18 seconds per battle. If I stick around for my enemies to target me, then I haven't really inflicted disadvantage at all.

Level 10-17

I can do all of that, but also I crash headfirst into enemy archers or support troops, draw my sidearm and laugh as they try to flee.

Level 18-20

By now I definitely have polearm master, so I get lance attacks against everyone who tries to move within 10ft of my horse. Each attack deals 1d12+7 damage (13.5, ~17.5 with savage attacker), enough to outright kill a bandit or a tribal warrior or a hobgoblin or an orc. I am an absolute god of war. My mere presence on a horse utterly reshapes the battlefield. I can truly solo armies.

Llama513

2016-12-06, 09:25 PM

Level 3-9

I'm a knight in full plate with a shield and a lance on a warhorse with barding. I zip around at 120ft/round, knocking 1-4 footsoldiers off balance each turn, and then running out of their movement range. If they're foolish enough to dash towards me and try to have me surrounded, I will cut them down as they form up, or when the cowards tries to attack my horse.

I'm not actually all that sticky, and when I am, it's just for 18 seconds per battle. If I stick around for my enemies to target me, then I haven't really inflicted disadvantage at all.

Level 10-17

I can do all of that, but also I crash headfirst into enemy archers or support troops, draw my sidearm and laugh as they try to flee.

Level 18-20

By now I definitely have polearm master, so I get lance attacks against everyone who tries to move within 10ft of my horse. Each attack deals 1d12+7 damage (13.5, ~17.5 with savage attacker), enough to outright kill a bandit or a tribal warrior or a hobgoblin or an orc. I am an absolute god of war. My mere presence on a horse utterly reshapes the battlefield. I can truly solo armies.

I had not thought about it that way, thank you for putting that into perspective, the issue I see is that most of the features don't work nicely with a lance as they are for creatures that are 5ft from you, where a lance has disadvantage, but if you can swap between a lance and a sword or some other weapon that works, but the lance is not quite meant for this entirely, never mind about my worry, if you have mounted combat you can hit people with in 5ft of you with the lance from your horse without disadvantage, but I would still personally have a long sword or something for when you can't work your lance, and my big concern with the polearm master thing is that you can't use it with a lance

Fuzzy Logic

2016-12-06, 09:35 PM

... with Martial Adept you can have as many extra superiority dice as you get feats. Which if you aren't human is 7 more superiority dice, taking you up to 13 per short rest, and getting one back every time you roll initiative

I was under the impression that by RAW you can only take martial adept once.

Llama513

2016-12-06, 09:38 PM

I was under the impression that by RAW you can only take martial adept once.

I forgot about that, however as a DM you could allow it to be taken more than once, or come up with something to give them more Superiority dice

Fuzzy Logic

2016-12-06, 09:59 PM

I agree that the archer's abilities are too sparse, but I'm not sure upping the number of arcane shots is the answer, it really does step on the battle master's toes too much. Armchair design: drop the number of arcane shots to once per long rest. This is the stand in for the old archer's arrow of death or whatnot. Give them 1/3 casting like eldritch knights, with perhaps an ability to burn spell slots to add force damage to their arrows. What would we think of that?

Llama513

2016-12-06, 10:01 PM

I have seen another decent option, of giving them 4 uses per short rest at 7th level and than not giving them anymore after that.

Ziegander

2016-12-06, 10:18 PM

Nope. Swashbuckler. No Opp Attacks (and almost guaranteed Sneak Attacks each time they approach).

I am reading it further it gets worse and worse. You could literally Sneak Attack 3 times a round.

BEAUTIFUL. I wondered, "why Swashbuckler?"

Okay, it's definitely powerful, and I'm starting to love it.

pwykersotz

2016-12-07, 02:18 AM

Thinking about it, I want more flavor. These are fairly mechanically heavy with sparse thematics.

Why not have the Samurai have an ability like: Iaijutsu Strike. In the blink of an eye you unsheathe your blade, cut down your foes, and re-sheathe. When you wield a weapon which deals slashing damage that is in its scabbard, you may, as an action, travel up to your movement in a straight line, dodging through any enemies without provoking attacks of opportunity. For each attack you can normally make as part of an action, you may instead roll 1d12 for damage and split the resulting damage to any combination of targets who you passed who were within range of your weapon. Your weapon is sheathed in its scabbard again after this attack is finished. If you kill an enemy in this way, the ability recharges immediately. If you do not, you cannot use this again until you take a short rest.

The recharge style incentivizes using it as a final strike and prevents it from being completely spammable while still allowing it to be used frequently. It's probably lower damage than ordinary strikes since it doesn't benefit from modifiers, but it auto-hits which is a nice thing to have on a finishing blow.

For arcane archer, while the class is a good duplication of the 3.5 class (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneArcher.htm), I feel it could use something special. How about: Mystic Shot. You learn the trick to focus magical energy into arrow form just long enough for you to fire. You learn 2 cantrips with a range of touch of your choice. As an action, you may channel this cantrip into a glowing arrow that you fire. The arrow deals no damage, but the cantrip instead is applied to whoever it hits. If targeting an ally who sees you firing and wants to be hit, you have advantage on the attack roll.

It's not overly powerful or anything, there's only a few cantrips that could be used, but you could tag targets with Light or cause some lightning damage with Shocking Grasp. It's good, at-will fun.

I don't know what to do with Knight or Sharpshooter. Every thematic ability seems constraining to me. But I think they need something extra as well. Something active and more freely usable like above.

Gwendol

2016-12-07, 02:58 AM

Spacehamster

2016-12-07, 06:15 AM

Sharpshooter and Arcane archer is great, the two others I am not that impressed with.

MinotaurWarrior

2016-12-07, 06:31 AM

I still see the arcane archer and the knight as the two options interesting enough to develop further. Maybe a fixed spell list for the archer? As other have noted it will otherwise be a class for dips. The knight should have more incentive to fight while mounted, and it wouldn't hurt to take a second look at the purple dragon for some leader abilities (which the knight is expected to display).

Just reposting the idea since it's been a bit: I really like the idea of something resembling Open Hand Technique for the Arcane Archer. Something like:

Once per turn, you can imbue an arrow with a minor magic property..... a target struck by the arrow is

1) Knocked Back 5ft
2) suffers disadvantage on perception checks
Or
2) Takes half if the arrows damage as another damage type of your choice, instead of the weapons normal damage type (50/50)

Maxilian

2016-12-07, 11:22 AM

Honestly, nobody in a traditional D&D game wants to play a class where its abilities are centered around mounted combat. Unless the whole group is mounted you're going to spend most of your time on foot. Any abilities that require a mount will be wasted a huge percentage of a time.

Unless you're a small race, that way your mount can get almost everywhere

Ravinsild

2016-12-07, 12:03 PM

Unless you're a small race, that way your mount can get almost everywhere

Trying to figure out for myself if Revised Ranger Beastmaster + Samurai is valid for a classic Samurai on a Horse (Wolf Companion) slicing up the people with a Katana (Versatile sword of some kind like Longsword for two-handed use by the small race) is a valid build.

I think a Goblin Samurai on a Wolf is hilarious and epic but I don't know if it fits together mechanically to actually be useful or if it's just a gimmick.

Zalabim

2016-12-07, 08:14 PM

I don't know where you would get that idea. The control effects of the arcane shots are far more powerful than the 2d6 damage. Limiting an enemy's vision to 30 feet is great against spellcasters. Halving an enemy's weapon damage is fantastic against beasts, giants or even dragons. You get a wider variety of maneuvers and more uses but I think that any given maneuver offers much less control than an arcane shot.
The arcane shots are all over the place, really. I mostly see the control ones being too weak, but the damaging ones look useful. Maybe it's just defending arrow that has the problem. Disadvantage on one attack?

CantigThimble

2016-12-07, 09:08 PM

The arcane shots are all over the place, really. I mostly see the control ones being too weak, but the damaging ones look useful. Maybe it's just defending arrow that has the problem. Disadvantage on one attack?

Oh yeah, there's a huge variance in power level, and they're terribly balanced with each other.

Charming Arrow: Situational but amazing when a teammate can't afford to go down. You could easily take a creature's whole turn away if you position right.
Brute Bane Arrow: Great against almost any melee enemy, especially bosses.
Bursting Arrow: The damage doesn't scale so this will be irrelevant after about level 5, and weak before then.
Defending Arrow: Why does this even exist when you have brute bane arrow?
Grasping Arrow: So they either waste an action, don't move or you chill touch them. It's okay sometimes I guess.
Piercing Arrow: Now THIS is a cool AOE. Probably a bit tricky to set up but landing your full bow damage plus 2d6 on 2-3 extra targets is a decent amount of damage.
Seeking Arrow: Cool but probably not very useful most of the time.
Shadow Arrow: Like charming arrow, this can easily steal your target's turn. They just need to be movement+30 away from you. Really good against other archers or wizards.

Princess

2016-12-07, 09:21 PM

Trying to figure out for myself if Revised Ranger Beastmaster + Samurai is valid for a classic Samurai on a Horse (Wolf Companion) slicing up the people with a Katana (Versatile sword of some kind like Longsword for two-handed use by the small race) is a valid build.

I think a Goblin Samurai on a Wolf is hilarious and epic but I don't know if it fits together mechanically to actually be useful or if it's just a gimmick.

Dex bonus and darkvision for goblins = mounted archer or finesse success. The question to ask the DM is if the racial power they get from Volo's would help them *and* their mount disengage together. If yes, plan is excellent. Goblin wolfrider samurai is quirky, maybe less optimal than a halfling, but totally doable.

Ravinsild

2016-12-07, 09:36 PM

Dex bonus and darkvision for goblins = mounted archer or finesse success. The question to ask the DM is if the racial power they get from Volo's would help them *and* their mount disengage together. If yes, plan is excellent. Goblin wolfrider samurai is quirky, maybe less optimal than a halfling, but totally doable.

A longsword is simply Versatile and a 1d10 when used two-handed and does not grant disadvantage to small creatures because it does not have the Heavy property.

Nimple Escape: You can take the Disengage or Hide action as a bonus action on each of your turns.

Mounted Combat Rules: You can control a mount only if it has been trained to accept a rider. (I believe an Animal Companion of the Ranger applies here). Domesticated horses, donkeys, and similar creatures are assumed to have such training. The initiative of a controlled mount changes to match yours when you mount it. It moves as you direct it, and it has only three action options: Dash, Disengage, and Dodge. A controlled mount can move and act even on the turn that you mount it.

It doesn't lose its reaction apparently therefore I would imagine in melee you could attack and with the level 5 Beastmaster feature on the Revised Ranger page says it can use its reaction to attack in tandem with you. Then as a bonus action since you control the movement could you not disengage?

Am I ruining these rules?

RickAllison

2016-12-08, 11:03 AM

Princess

2016-12-09, 12:44 PM

Important thing to note is that a mounted knight never has to worry about opportunity attacks unless taking it for the horse. While mounted, the rider is being moved by the horse and is treated no differently than if an enemy was grappling him and dragging him around. The rider never has to Disengage because having the horse pull him from battle doesn't trigger the opportunity attacks. The horse is left on its own... Of course a DM can rule otherwise, but it isn't supported by 5e rules.

Right, which means if the goblin's disengage-as-bonus action feature helps their horse do that, they can really move. But if it isn't shared, it's sort of a wasted feature.

VoxRationis

2016-12-09, 11:19 PM

Important thing to note is that a mounted knight never has to worry about opportunity attacks unless taking it for the horse. While mounted, the rider is being moved by the horse and is treated no differently than if an enemy was grappling him and dragging him around. The rider never has to Disengage because having the horse pull him from battle doesn't trigger the opportunity attacks. The horse is left on its own... Of course a DM can rule otherwise, but it isn't supported by 5e rules.

Do you really want to encourage your DM to make opportunity attacks against your horse?

RickAllison

2016-12-09, 11:23 PM

Do you really want to encourage your DM to make opportunity attacks against your horse?

That is the entire point of Mounted Combatant. It is supposed to allow the rider to protect the steed while less experienced riders find their horse getting killed underneath them.

MinotaurWarrior

2016-12-10, 12:21 PM

That is the entire point of Mounted Combatant. It is supposed to allow the rider to protect the steed while less experienced riders find their horse getting killed underneath them.

Also why the Knight class features work so well. I'll kill anyone who attacks my noble steed.

Is there a way to be sufficiently elevated by your mount that non-reach weapons can't hit you? Aside from flying mounts, of course. Twinned enlarge isn't enough on a horse.

RickAllison

2016-12-10, 01:18 PM

Also why the Knight class features work so well. I'll kill anyone who attacks my noble steed.

Is there a way to be sufficiently elevated by your mount that non-reach weapons can't hit you? Aside from flying mounts, of course. Twinned enlarge isn't enough on a horse.

Enlarge while being on an Elephant?

Nargrakhan

2016-12-12, 12:38 PM

Why not have the Samurai have an ability like: Iaijutsu Strike.

An iaido master in my opinion, is a Fighter with high DEX and the Alert feat. His katana is a longsword (or nodachi is a great sword). The "draw and re-sheathing" thing are just cool imaginative descriptions of what happens during the attack action.

Thinking about it, I want more flavor. These are fairly mechanically heavy with sparse thematics.

Personally I dislike flavor locking class mechanics to a specific theme like "samurai" and "knight". For example the Knight is being flavored as the 'ole armored European version. Which is cool... but samurai ALSO embodied that style of warfare in the Sengoku-era. It fell into disfavor because Nobunaga slaughtered Takeda at the Battle of Nagashino using firearms. But there are still manga and games that feature cavalry samurai being all cool and badass. There's no reason to flavor lock the Knight as Eurocentric... the style of warfare was everywhere. Same goes for the samurai... European knights having exceptional social grace and indomitable spirit is the entire Arthurian Legend. It doesn't just apply to anime or cinematic samurai.

Let's take this guy for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZG15BaK9r8

Everything he does screams Battle Master to me. No need for a "Kensei/Kensai" specific class features. Hell... his epic Tsubame Gaeshi technique is easily explained as an Action Surge and using his Bonus Action to make an attack (or even justified as a female knight activating her sword technique causing an Opportunity to add another attack). The point being: 5e mechanics already can describe what's happening, without inventing needless new mechanics.

Samurai... Knight... these are titles that a Fighter of any archetype should be able to adapt... because shoehorning a Samurai or Knight as a specific thing, ignores that they're not specific things.

MinotaurWarrior

2016-12-12, 01:07 PM

Personally I dislike flavor locking class mechanics to a specific theme like "samurai" and "knight".

Fortunately, we no longer have fluff requirements for classes like all those 3.X PRCs did, so there's no flavor "lock". I much prefer this "take it or leave it" style to either a generic "Sticky Fighter / Mode fighter" or a "Requirement: 10 years as a squire to a character with Knight Class levels" system.

Right now I'm playing a Holy Slavehunter of Kurgorbaeyag. Mechanically, he's a Bugbear Assassin 3 / Barbarian 2 / Hunter 6 (Character started at level 10). His background probably never matched any of the fluff paragraphs for the individual classes very closely, but the concept works with the mechanics, so it's all good.

RickAllison

2016-12-12, 01:27 PM

Fortunately, we no longer have fluff requirements for classes like all those 3.X PRCs did, so there's no flavor "lock". I much prefer this "take it or leave it" style to either a generic "Sticky Fighter / Mode fighter" or a "Requirement: 10 years as a squire to a character with Knight Class levels" system.

Right now I'm playing a Holy Slavehunter of Kurgorbaeyag. Mechanically, he's a Bugbear Assassin 3 / Barbarian 2 / Hunter 6 (Character started at level 10). His background probably never matched any of the fluff paragraphs for the individual classes very closely, but the concept works with the mechanics, so it's all good.

Indeed. I could see a "samurai" being made as a Barbarian (Final Fantasy Bushido or Tranquility instead of Rage), a Fighter of several varieties, a Rogue (picks apart defense with attacks to set up his Sneak Iaido Attack; I recommend Swashbuckler), a Monk, a Paladin (a la Miko), and there are likely even more options. Heck, you could probably pull off a Wizard or Sorcerer gish who is a supernatural samurai; GFB is drawing the sword across fast enough to generate heat and extending it to a second enemy, while Booming Blade could be either an afterimage-attack or a secret slashing technique that generates intense pain when the target tries to move afterwards.

Princess

2016-12-12, 09:35 PM

Indeed. I could see a "samurai" being made as a Barbarian (Final Fantasy Bushido or Tranquility instead of Rage), a Fighter of several varieties, a Rogue (picks apart defense with attacks to set up his Sneak Iaido Attack; I recommend Swashbuckler), a Monk, a Paladin (a la Miko), and there are likely even more options. Heck, you could probably pull off a Wizard or Sorcerer gish who is a supernatural samurai; GFB is drawing the sword across fast enough to generate heat and extending it to a second enemy, while Booming Blade could be either an afterimage-attack or a secret slashing technique that generates intense pain when the target tries to move afterwards.

Exactly. Swashbuckler/Undying Warlock as a Samurai (Just describe your rapier as a skinny katana :P) works just fine in a D&D context - your patron can be an immortal spirit tied to your home fiefdom or lord's family. I had a PC with a samurai-class background using a variant sorcerer rule that worked just great with the story. And the "Samurai" and "Knight" subclasses in the UA could also be refluffed as some other sort of fierce and determined fighter (Even just flipping them around and making a "Samurai" have a knightly background, or vice versa).

RickAllison

2016-12-12, 10:11 PM

Exactly. Swashbuckler/Undying Warlock as a Samurai (Just describe your rapier as a skinny katana :P) works just fine in a D&D context - your patron can be an immortal spirit tied to your home fiefdom or lord's family. I had a PC with a samurai-class background using a variant sorcerer rule that worked just great with the story. And the "Samurai" and "Knight" subclasses in the UA could also be refluffed as some other sort of fierce and determined fighter (Even just flipping them around and making a "Samurai" have a knightly background, or vice versa).

Okay, so how can we refluff those Fighter archetypes?

Arcane Archer: Trick arrows, channeling spirits, a quiver that is actually a Bag of Tricks and so the Arcane Arrows are firing different animals at the enemy. Replenishing arrows is really just an elephant's trunk that pops out and slips the arrows in, but no one knows where this elephant gets the arrows from...

Knight: So we have mounted combat, and sticky defending. I kind of like a Hunnic or Mongolian warrior-archer who fluffs his melee attacks as taking the reins in hand and having the horse rear and attack (using the appropriate stats from the Fighter as if it was him attacking). Falls apart at the highest levels, but I am not as concerned with that. Samurai actually fit perfectly with this! As I understand, mounted archery formed a significant aspect of samurai warfare, and the mechanic of engaging in melee to protect someone would fit perfectly with someone trained to protect their lord to the death.

Samurai: Has anyone played the Deadliest Warrior fighting games? This strikes me as the perfect fit for the Sun Tzu in those games. Someone who has close ties to the social structures of nobility, but fights with their head. Fluff Fighting Spirit as the Art of War in learning to focus to avoid damage and strike true. Elegant Courtier fits perfectly for a military advisor who has kept his head straight on matters of war, but have developed the skills to gain favor in court so he can vouch for the military when needed. Calm Mind instead of Unbreakable Will. You have a zen master as a fighter! This also works well for a non-magical skald, a warrior-bard who consorts with great nobles while still being a fierce soldier.

Sharpshooter: it's an archer. How can you say much more than that?

Secret Wizard

2016-12-15, 12:24 AM

The Samurai is probably the best of the lot but does nothing new.

DracoKnight

2016-12-15, 02:09 AM

The Samurai is probably the best of the lot but does nothing new.

You and I are in 100% agreement.

Ravinsild

2016-12-15, 10:29 AM

Sharpshooter: it's an archer. How can you say much more than that?

I keep wanting to call it the Gunslinger. It just feels so right with a revolver instead of a bow or whatever. From the moment I read the Archetype my immediate thought was "Gunslinger".

Arcane Archer: Trick arrows, channeling spirits, a quiver that is actually a Bag of Tricks and so the Arcane Arrows are firing different animals at the enemy. Replenishing arrows is really just an elephant's trunk that pops out and slips the arrows in, but no one knows where this elephant gets the arrows from...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3EfQzrIPHI