Fun gish

[sammyp03]

For my new character, I'd like to play a fighter type with some magic tricks up his sleeve like maybe shoot out a fireball to start the round then move into melee. I'm not looking for super optimization as our dm has basically said stick to core with a tiny amount of splat like SC, or a few of the completes.

Not a fan of duskblade because of their spell selection but would be willing to use them as a base class into another multiclass.
Any suggestions? Thoughts on stalwart battle sorcerer?

[John Longarrow]

Barbarian 5 / Sorcerer 1. Go into Abjurant Champion.

Your spell casting won't be for big explosive spells, it will be for upping your defense (Shield, Mage Armor) and granting versatility (Alter Self starting at CL 4) followed by debuffing (Dispel Magic when you get your 3rd level spell)

Really fun options from the complete stuff would be dipping a level in Fighter and taking a level in SpellSword.

If you wind up with 2 levels in Sorcerer, 5 in Abj Chp, and a one level dip in Spellsword you get 4th level spells (polymorph). This would give you character level -1 for BAB and (with the top level ability in Abjurant Champion) a matching Caster Level.

[sammyp03]

My gm thinks abjurant champion is vastly OP so sadly that won't be an option.

Also we cant get into PrC's unless there's a reason enough for it IN GAME like as a part of the story.

[Flickerdart]

I don't think the myconids have a listed LA, so you may be out of luck when it comes to fungish characters...

[ComaVision]

For a core-only gish I'd go with Paladin 2/Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight X. Battle Sorcerer would stop your BaB/HP from falling behind too far until you can get into your PrC. For backstory, you're a paladin of an arcane-magic god. Simple.

[John Longarrow]

You could go the Barbarian wizard route.

You run up and punch people yelling "Sleep Spell".
You throw barrels of alchemical fire yelling "Fireball"
You throw a companion across the pit and yell "Fly spell"

Really high str, really low Int/Wis.

[mastermisha1]

Divine crusader (complete divine) could be right up your alley. Also qualifies you for ordained champion which could be a fun melee based build without too much book keeping. Prerequirements are not too bad for either.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Duskblade is one of your better bets, methinks, and one of the only classes that can actually mix magic and melee in a useful way. You could move into Sand Shaper (Sandstorm) at 5th level to greatly expand your spells known for a single feat.

Stalwart Battle Sorcerer (if allowed) is a fine choice too, though. It gets some crap on the boards because Battle Sorcerer comes off very poorly in a multiclass (the casting penalty remains, but the chassis penalties are ignored), but I'm of the opinion that it's one of the better single-class arcane gish options.

[Kaje]

Sounds like you guys are quite low-op. What about a hexblade?

[Eisfalken]

For a core-only gish I'd go with Paladin 2/Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight X. Battle Sorcerer would stop your BaB/HP from falling behind too far until you can get into your PrC. For backstory, you're a paladin of an arcane-magic god. Simple.

Second this. If your DM consider ab-champ OP, then he's going to nix any other really tricky shenanigans we come up with here. Sticking to a mostly "core" build will set his fears aside. Even without being "optimized", a Sorcadin gish is pretty boss as long as you don't take really bad feats or spells.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Clerics and druids make fine gishes. Clerics can get a few neat blasty spells, especially with practical domain choices (which often turn out to be quite thematic, too). Druids get a lot of blasting in the 'nature's wrath' category, such as tornadoes, earthquakes and lightning strikes. Both are capable in melee with the right buff spells, and they can do lots of other useful stuff, too.

Ordained Champion is the go-to cleric gish class, but maybe prestige paladin is for you, as well. For druids, there's some synergy with Fist of the Forest. Druidic Avenger might be fun, too - it's an UA variant that gets rage on a druid.

[Godskook]

My gm thinks abjurant champion is vastly OP so sadly that won't be an option.

Also we cant get into PrC's unless there's a reason enough for it IN GAME like as a part of the story.

Why does your GM think AbChamp is "vastly OP"? Preferably, to prevent a "proxy war", could you convince him to discuss it with us directly?

Edit: I'd rather he be pissed about arguing with me than you, hence my suggestion.

[John Longarrow]

I think the issue may be swift abjuration + Dispel Magic + caster level = BAB on gish build.

Swift dispel on a buffed bad guy before full attack is really fun for this class. Not nearly as overpowered as some but very easy to get into and, for me, a default if I don't have something else planned out.

[Godskook]

I think the issue may be swift abjuration + Dispel Magic + caster level = BAB on gish build.

1.Good Gish builds don't *USE* the CL = BAB class feature. Your caster level, before practiced caster or any other buffs, is 17+. With Practiced Caster, its = HD. Your BAB will basically never be higher than that, unless you forgo maxCL to save a feat slot.

2.This trick is limited to base Dispel Magic, without any of the usual amps that a full caster gets(More setting the stage with this point. See below, in my response to the latter half of your point.)

3.This is nowhere near a core part of the class. It can easily be delayed or removed for balancing purposes. Or traded for the ability to cast (Greater) Mage Armor as an Abjuration spell. Either way.


Swift dispel on a buffed bad guy before full attack is really fun for this class. Not nearly as overpowered as some but very easy to get into and, for me, a default if I don't have something else planned out.

1.Its nice, but its competing with Wraithstrike for the opportunity.

2.Its limited. It comes online, earliest, at 9th level, and dies the moment enemies get access to CL 20 spells. Which is doable by a class-level 14 Ultimate Magus, with create magic tattoo, practiced caster, and one additional CL from...somewhere. An Archemage is 1 CL behind the UM. Red Wizards can do it as early as 10th level, when they get circle magic, and reach CL 20 with -just- hard class features by level 15. Divine casters get access to Beads of Karma, and so do Theurges(even on their arcane casting), which combined with a Create Magic Tattoo, let's them get access by level 15 at least too. Psionics have access to dispelling buffer, which gives a potent +5 defensively, at level 15(11 for Kineticists) Point being, you get at ECL 9, and it starts failing completely against BBEGs at ECL 10, and reliably fails against casters more and more.

3.Quicken Dispel is competing with WraithStrike for your Swift Action, which means that you need a target sufficiently buffed to make dispelling them worth more than using touch-attacks on them.

4.A +1 Greater Dispelling weapon is a +3 enchantment and gets a CL15 targeted dispel 3/day on-hit+command as a free action, and they're worth half of 9th level WBL and a quarter of 12th level WBL. Its flatout better at dealing with BBEGs, but limited usage and admittedly a tad expensive, so get it as an arrow, for 1/50th the cost, which means the party's archer is flatout better than you against 'special' targets for the low cost of 360g per shot.

[sammyp03]

Why does your GM think AbChamp is "vastly OP"? Preferably, to prevent a "proxy war", could you convince him to discuss it with us directly?

Edit: I'd rather he be pissed about arguing with me than you, hence my suggestion.

His Reasoning "With full BAB, full spellcasting, d10 hit dice, and a smattering of class features, why wouldn’t anyone take this class? It’s overpowered."

[John Longarrow]

Godskook...
Check OPs post. Game is not optimized so most of your points are probably not relevant at his table.

[Troacctid]

If you want a simple, sourcebook-light gish, a single-class cleric should do just fine, honestly. You don't get the same raw offensive AoE power as an arcane caster, but there are still some damaging spells on your list—even in core, you have spiritual weapon, flame strike, and blade barrier all in the War domain (which you're probably taking anyway), and you can channel inflict spells through a spell-storing weapon and stuff. And the chassis is ready-made for melee combat.


His Reasoning "With full BAB, full spellcasting, d10 hit dice, and a smattering of class features, why wouldn’t anyone take this class? It’s overpowered."
I mean, he's not wrong. Class is quite strong for only a single feat tax. *shrug*


I don't think the myconids have a listed LA, so you may be out of luck when it comes to fungish characters...
That's what Thrall of Zuggtmoy is for.

[Inevitability]

Never thought I'd say it, but... Eldritch Knight may actually be useful here.

[Eisfalken]

Yeah, you can't arcane-gish without prestige classes.

So you need to be a cleric and absolutely destroy his game. It's not even hard: Improved Initiative (at 1st if human, at 12th if not), Extend Spell, Persist Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persist Spell), Extra Turning. Dump all your turn undead into persistent divine power and persistent righteous might.

Technically requires two non-core feats (Persist is in Complete Arcane, DMM is in Complete Divine), so just don't tell him your plans up front. Ask for Persist Spell by itself when you get to 3rd, then Divine Metamagic when you get to 6th (he can't ban Extra Turning unless he starts house-ruling core rules). If he approves those, just keep dumping feats into Extra Turning so that you can fire up both spells (persistent divine power and persistent righteous might) again if the DM tries to dispel it halfway through the dungeon.

For more lulz, try to get hold of a nightstick (from Libris Mortis); gives you more turn undead per-days. They're super cheap, only 7,500 gp, so if you can, buy 2-3 of them before you start really going down the DMM path (so the DM won't trip to you just yet; imagine his shock when you can Persist two spells 2-3 times a day, or his rage when you throw in greater magic weapon, magic vestment, etc.).

If he turns into a damn sourpuss who just can't stand the idea of players having any options, he'll strip you of DMM and end your shenanigans. You'll basically be stuck with core. Meaning you need to ask yourself if that's really the D&D game you want to play.

[Troacctid]

You really don't need DMM. If you want something to do with your turning attempts, try Ordained Champion. It's a prestige class from Complete Champion with some very juicy abilities for a cleric gish. It's a lot of fun.

[sammyp03]

You really don't need DMM. If you want something to do with your turning attempts, try Ordained Champion. It's a prestige class from Complete Champion with some very juicy abilities for a cleric gish. It's a lot of fun.

I was a favored soul in my last campaign so I would like to try and stay away from that type of class if possible.

Love ordained champion though

[stanprollyright]

For my new character, I'd like to play a fighter type with some magic tricks up his sleeve like maybe shoot out a fireball to start the round then move into melee. I'm not looking for super optimization as our dm has basically said stick to core with a tiny amount of splat like SC, or a few of the completes.

Not a fan of duskblade because of their spell selection but would be willing to use them as a base class into another multiclass.
Any suggestions? Thoughts on stalwart battle sorcerer?

Eldritch Knight is good but not absolutely necessary.

Sorcerer/Paladin, for Cha Synergy.

Duskblade 3/Fighter 2/Wizard

Bard with Fighter dip. Can get wands of damage spells, and there are several ways to expand your spell list.

Pretty far outside of core, but it's just one feat: Sword of the Arcane Order (http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/feat/Sword_of_the_Arcane_Order) for a Paladin or Ranger to get Wizard spells.

[Inevitability]

Yeah, you can't arcane-gish without prestige classes.

So you need to be a cleric and absolutely destroy his game. It's not even hard: Improved Initiative (at 1st if human, at 12th if not), Extend Spell, Persist Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persist Spell), Extra Turning. Dump all your turn undead into persistent divine power and persistent righteous might.

Technically requires two non-core feats (Persist is in Complete Arcane, DMM is in Complete Divine), so just don't tell him your plans up front. Ask for Persist Spell by itself when you get to 3rd, then Divine Metamagic when you get to 6th (he can't ban Extra Turning unless he starts house-ruling core rules). If he approves those, just keep dumping feats into Extra Turning so that you can fire up both spells (persistent divine power and persistent righteous might) again if the DM tries to dispel it halfway through the dungeon.

For more lulz, try to get hold of a nightstick (from Libris Mortis); gives you more turn undead per-days. They're super cheap, only 7,500 gp, so if you can, buy 2-3 of them before you start really going down the DMM path (so the DM won't trip to you just yet; imagine his shock when you can Persist two spells 2-3 times a day, or his rage when you throw in greater magic weapon, magic vestment, etc.).

If he turns into a damn sourpuss who just can't stand the idea of players having any options, he'll strip you of DMM and end your shenanigans. You'll basically be stuck with core. Meaning you need to ask yourself if that's really the D&D game you want to play.

Or sam could perhaps respect the DM and their game?

I don't know, "Hide your plans from the DM, then break his campaign: that'll teach him for not allowing all books" just doesn't sound like something I'd enjoy, whether I'm DM or player in that game. Think about the other players: do you want them to be overshadowed?

[Kaje]

I keep coming back to a hexblade. Take dark companion and some fear feats.

[Pyromancer999]

If Eberron material is allowed, Knight Phantom is a fun alternative to Eldritch Knight.

[Inevitability]

If Eberron material is allowed, Knight Phantom is a fun alternative to Eldritch Knight.

I like fulfilling the casting requirement with Arcane Disciple (Spider). It makes a few more classes eligible to enter, and makes your phantom steeds look like vermin, rather than horses.

[danielxcutter]

Bard with Snowflake Wardance doesn't seem that bad, considering it's a low-op game.

[sammyp03]

Everyone keeps saying sorcadin. Why for the divine grace?

[Inevitability]

Everyone keeps saying sorcadin. Why for the divine grace?

Well, all gishes need to get decent weapons (no sense in whacking stuff with clubs) and possibly some good armor too, so a dip in a melee class is basically necessitated if you're playing (mostly) core-only. Besides, a few extra points of BAB has never hurt a melee build.

Of all the melee classes in core, paladin is basically the only one with a strong focus on mental ability scores at low levels (ranger doesn't need them until level 4, fighter, barbarian and rogue can do without them, monk is hardly a melee class).

So yes, divine grace in addition to everything that makes a core-only gish need a dip to begin with.

[Virdish]

Because sorcadin is a half decent proto gish that can be pulled off using only core. It's actually a pretty nice chassis.

[Flickerdart]

I quite like Sorcerer 18/Arcane Archer 2 as a Core gish. Never run out of magic ammunition, and have the ability to lob a fireball across a battlefield (even Long range for spells is 1200ft, your basic Distance composite greatbow (CWar) is 1950ft and can carry your short-range spells just fine).

[stanprollyright]

Everyone keeps saying sorcadin. Why for the divine grace?

That's one of the big ones. Smite scales with Cha as well. Lay on Hands and Paladin spells give you some healing ability and other options, like the ability to cast divine wands, and possibly Turn Undead attempts. Other stuff like Divine Health is icing. Paladin 2 or 5 are the natural breakpoints; the Mount is nice because you can polymorph it (there's probably some feat/PrC combo that lets you turn your Familiar and Mount into the same creature).

[Inevitability]

That's one of the big ones. Smite scales with Cha as well. Lay on Hands and Paladin spells give you some healing ability and other options, like the ability to cast divine wands, and possibly Turn Undead attempts. Other stuff like Divine Health is icing. Paladin 2 or 5 are the natural breakpoints; the Mount is nice because you can polymorph it (there's probably some feat/PrC combo that lets you turn your Familiar and Mount into the same creature).

You don't get the ability to use divine wands unless you're a 4th-level paladin, though, which is unwise for most arcane gishes.

[sammyp03]

Does anyone have an opinion on Stalwart Battle Sorcerer?

[Troacctid]

Stalwart Battle Sorcerer is problematic because if you prestige at all, you lose the benefits of both ACFs while retaining the (rather severe) drawbacks. But if you are single-classing anyway (perhaps because your DM has strictly limited prestige classes), or if you can wrangle your DM into houseruling it so that you can retain the benefits when you prestige, then it is fine. I believe your spells known and spells per day still outpace the Duskblade's.

[Thomeyis]

Are Psionics allowed? Plain ol' Psychic Warrior sounds right up your alley, and Ardent is even better if you can use Complete Psionic. Ardent is pretty much the perfect gish-in-a-can, allowing you to choose mantles that either buff your melee capabilities or give you blasting potential.

[ComaVision]

You don't get the ability to use divine wands unless you're a 4th-level paladin, though, which is unwise for most arcane gishes.

That is incorrect.


Spell Trigger
Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

[sammyp03]

Are Psionics allowed? Plain ol' Psychic Warrior sounds right up your alley, and Ardent is even better if you can use Complete Psionic. Ardent is pretty much the perfect gish-in-a-can, allowing you to choose mantles that either buff your melee capabilities or give you blasting potential.

I actually like this. I'm not sure if their allowed but it won't hurt to ask. Easy to refluff the psychic stuff to fit his setting

[Hiro Quester]

Swiftblade (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) is by far my favorite Gish PrC, if an official webPrC is allowed. The haste spell personified.

Lots of options, excellent class features make up for a few lost caster levels, and your main spell (haste) buffs the rest of the party too. Plus you can have a fun character concept to play (fluff as impatient impetuous speed-addict).

Build on a battle sorcerer base. Elf race (fire elf for the win). To get weapon proficiency needed.

A bard base also works very well.

There's a handbook with sample builds here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=333.0). Though some tend towards too optimized for your DM, many would be fine for your table.

[Malimar]

I don't think the myconids have a listed LA, so you may be out of luck when it comes to fungish characters...

They got one in an update, but it's totally butts. LA = HD, IIRC.

[sammyp03]

Swiftblade (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) is by far my favorite Gish PrC, if an official webPrC is allowed. The haste spell personified.

Lots of options, excellent class features make up for a few lost caster levels, and your main spell (haste) buffs the rest of the party too. Plus you can have a fun character concept to play (fluff as impatient impetuous speed-addict).

Build on a battle sorcerer base. Elf race (fire elf for the win). To get weapon proficiency needed.

A bard base also works very well.

There's a handbook with sample builds here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=333.0). Though some tend towards too optimized for your DM, many would be fine for your table.

Ill have to check it out

[Inevitability]

Build on a battle sorcerer base. Elf race (fire elf for the win). To get weapon proficiency needed.

Why would an elf sorcerer want to be a fire elf? The charisma penalty seems annoying, to say the least.

Star Elf would be great if it's approved, but failing that even plain ol' high elf should get better results.

[Chulehdoido]

Yeah, you can't arcane-gish without prestige classes.

So you need to be a cleric and absolutely destroy his game. It's not even hard: Improved Initiative (at 1st if human, at 12th if not), Extend Spell, Persist Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persist Spell), Extra Turning. Dump all your turn undead into persistent divine power and persistent righteous might.

Technically requires two non-core feats (Persist is in Complete Arcane, DMM is in Complete Divine), so just don't tell him your plans up front. Ask for Persist Spell by itself when you get to 3rd, then Divine Metamagic when you get to 6th (he can't ban Extra Turning unless he starts house-ruling core rules). If he approves those, just keep dumping feats into Extra Turning so that you can fire up both spells (persistent divine power and persistent righteous might) again if the DM tries to dispel it halfway through the dungeon.

For more lulz, try to get hold of a nightstick (from Libris Mortis); gives you more turn undead per-days. They're super cheap, only 7,500 gp, so if you can, buy 2-3 of them before you start really going down the DMM path (so the DM won't trip to you just yet; imagine his shock when you can Persist two spells 2-3 times a day, or his rage when you throw in greater magic weapon, magic vestment, etc.).

If he turns into a damn sourpuss who just can't stand the idea of players having any options, he'll strip you of DMM and end your shenanigans. You'll basically be stuck with core. Meaning you need to ask yourself if that's really the D&D game you want to play.
Sorcerer without any prestige class can do everything that cleric can do, but, better.

[Hiro Quester]

Why would an elf sorcerer want to be a fire elf? The charisma penalty seems annoying, to say the least.

Star Elf would be great if it's approved, but failing that even plain ol' high elf should get better results.

You're right. That's better for a wizard base. I misremembered thinking it had a boost to Cha and Dex, but it's a boost to Int and Dex and a -2 to cha and con.

[Inevitability]

Sorcerer without any prestige class can do everything that cleric can do, but, better.

Aaaaaand there we go again.

Also, (Greater) Anyspell. Your move, Chu.

[danielxcutter]

Sorcerer without any prestige class can do everything that cleric can do, but, better.

*cough*turn undead*cough*

[Lokiron]

Does anyone have an opinion on Stalwart Battle Sorcerer?

The cool thing about this variant (or variants), is that you get higher spell levels earlier. Compare eg. the stalwart battle sorcerer at level 10 with paladin 2 / sorcerer 8 (just the casting, so the 8 levels can include PrCs):

StalBatlSorc
Spells known: 0th 8, 1st 4, 2nd 3, 3rd 2, 4th 1, 5th 1
Spell per day: 0th 5, 1st 5, 2nd 5, 3rd 5, 4th 4, 5th 2

Sorcadin:
Spells known: 0th 8, 1st 5, 2nd 3, 3rd 2, 4th 1
Spell per day: 0th 6, 1st 6, 2nd 6, 3rd 5, 4th 3


The StalBatlSorc is better off in the high level spells, while the Sorcadin is better off in the low level spells. This is true at all levels. At level 20, the StalBatlSorc has 1 9th level spell known, same as the Sorcadin, but more 9th level slots. 8th level spells are identical at level 20, lower levels favor the Sorcadin. The StalBatlSorc has better hit points, but the Sorcadin has nice features, too.

In terms of spells per day and highest level spells, the StalBatlSorc will also always be ahead of a wizard gish with two levels of martial classes, often needed to get into good PrCs.

Like almost all gishes, the StalBatlSorc loses out without Abjurant Champion, and you cannot easily get into Eldritch Knight, because that class requires full martial weapon proficiency... Still, I think the StalBatlSorc can work just fine in a game where Abjurant Champion is considered OP.

Btw, feat and profeciency taxes are the reasons it is not OP, and a pure caster has better options.

[Chulehdoido]

*cough*turn undead*cough*
Why sorc want turn undead?

[Inevitability]

Why sorc want turn undead?

The obvious answer here would be 'to turn undead'.

That said, Divine Metamagic is major for a reason. A single-classed sorcerer has no way to make buffs last all day: a cleric can do so from first level on.

[Chulehdoido]

The obvious answer here would be 'to turn undead'.

That said, Divine Metamagic is major for a reason. A single-classed sorcerer has no way to make buffs last all day: a cleric can do so from first level on.

Undead Battery feat + Summon Undead spell + Persistent Spell = Buff all day.

Sorc dont need turn undead.

[Aetis]

For my new character, I'd like to play a fighter type with some magic tricks up his sleeve like maybe shoot out a fireball to start the round then move into melee. I'm not looking for super optimization as our dm has basically said stick to core with a tiny amount of splat like SC, or a few of the completes.

Not a fan of duskblade because of their spell selection but would be willing to use them as a base class into another multiclass.
Any suggestions? Thoughts on stalwart battle sorcerer?

How about a pure fighter, cross-class UMD skill, and acquire a wand of fireball?

I believe it technically meets everything you are looking for.

[Inevitability]

Undead Battery feat + Summon Undead spell + Persistent Spell = Buff all day.

Sorc dont need turn undead.

So... What book is Undead Battery from, again? I don't believe it's first party.

[Kaje]

It's in the Dragonlance book Age of Mortals. You drain HD from undead and use it to reduce metamagic costs.

[Inevitability]

It's in the Dragonlance book Age of Mortals. You drain HD from undead and use it to reduce metamagic costs.

That's not first party, is it?

[Kaje]

Officially licensed and approved I believe, but technically 3rd party.

[ExLibrisMortis]

That's not first party, is it?
Written & Published by Sovereign Press, official licensed product. Not first party. Of a similar status as most Dragon magazines, in fact.

[NightDweller]

You could go the Barbarian wizard route.

You run up and punch people yelling "Sleep Spell".
You throw barrels of alchemical fire yelling "Fireball"
You throw a companion across the pit and yell "Fly spell"

Really high str, really low Int/Wis.

Kudos for that.

Made me laugh on a stressful day.

[John Longarrow]

Glad it brightened your day. I had fun writing it and my girlfriend had to ask what I was laughing about!

For a different fun core only gish, have you thought about Barbarian/Bard?
1st level spells like Grease and Expeditions retreat will help you in combat while CLW is good out of combat.
2nd level gets Alter self, Blur, Heroism, Invisibility, Mirror Image, and Rage as spells.
3rd level has blink, good hope, and haste
4th level has Freedom of Movement and Greater Invisibility.

You can pull off 6th level spells at 20th while running a 16 BAB if you want. Biggest question is what you want out of your spell casting.

Course if you really want melee and spell casting in a core only game, Druid is always a good option... Just saying.

[sammyp03]

My Dm Approved the Psionic classes ardent and psychic warrior. Anyone have any thoughts or tips on them?

[Troacctid]

Psionic warriors are primarily self-buffers. They don't have a lot of power points, so they have to ration their magic out pretty carefully, at least until they hit higher levels, which means they tend to play like a warrior first and a magic-user second.

Ardents have full manifesting with the same progression as a psion, so they can toss around powers more liberally, but they don't have the psychic warrior's bonus feats. Generally, they are the more powerful class by a significant margin, because their manifesting is so much stronger. Also, if you get to Ardent 10, the Dominant Ideal ACF is busted as hell—it basically just gives you free metapsionics, which is nuts. However, depending on what you are trying to do, psychic warrior is also perfectly reasonable.

Basically, they will give you different types of characters.

[Chulehdoido]

So... What book is Undead Battery from, again? I don't believe it's first party.
Official and Licensed Book.
Undead Battery = Free metamagic feat to sorcerers.
Sorcerer can do everything that cleric can do, but, better

[Grod_The_Giant]

Psionic warriors are primarily self-buffers. They don't have a lot of power points, so they have to ration their magic out pretty carefully, at least until they hit higher levels, which means they tend to play like a warrior first and a magic-user second.

Ardents have full manifesting with the same progression as a psion, so they can toss around powers more liberally, but they don't have the psychic warrior's bonus feats. Generally, they are the more powerful class by a significant margin, because their manifesting is so much stronger. Also, if you get to Ardent 10, the Dominant Ideal ACF is busted as hell—it basically just gives you free metapsionics, which is nuts. However, depending on what you are trying to do, psychic warrior is also perfectly reasonable.

Basically, they will give you different types of characters.
Ardent also has a nice trick with its manifesting, which is that it learns powers based on manifester level, not character level. You can leave for a few levels, take Practiced Manifester, and come back without losing progression (though you still miss out on power points and powers known).

[Hunterx]

Duskblade, green star adept

Barbarian sorcerer, rage Mage green star

Fighter, dusk blade, eldrich knight

Samurai,-Ronan, dusk blade, green star adept


Just some ideas off the top of my head