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lotofsnow
2007-07-15, 03:38 PM
This week I will finally (hopefully) start playing in a new Eberron-based campaign. Starting level is 2, and the campaign should only run to about level 9, so I'm more concerned with early usefulness than level 20 optimization. Level adjustments up to +2 are allowed(giving you an ECL 3 character if you choose).

The group makeup, as I understand it, is: Druid, Sorceress, Gambler (home brewed class that relies on improvised weapons and luck bonuses), Fighter, Cleric, and Beguiler, played by your's truly.

My plan is to serve has scout, skill monkey, and battlefield control, while staying out of melee as much as possible (I will probably only use "Surprise Casting" if absolutely necessary).

If you have a second, I'd appreciate it if you would take a look and PEACH what I have so far. Thank you in advance.

Let me introduce you to Cadfan "Lot" Gottfrid, Dark Whisper Gnome Beguiler Extraordinaire (i.e. level 1). That's Dark as in Dark Creature from "Tome of Magic."

My stats, adjustments applied for race and age for your convenience, are:

Str: 10; Dex: 18; Con: 16; Int: 19; Wis: 14; Cha: 13

My feats: Spellcasting Prodigy (the Dragonlance version), Spell Focus (Illusion), and Improved Initiative.
My flaws: Non-Combatent (-2 to melee attack rolls) and Jinxed (a flaw found online; DM forces me to reroll 1 successful die roll per day).
My trait: Quick (+10 to movement, -1hp/lvl).

Some interesting(i.e. important) facts about my character:
- Initiative +8 (+4 Dex and Improved Initiative feat)
- Speed 50 (30 race + 10 dark creature + 10 trait)
- Hide skill modifier = +24 (+4 size, +4 race, +8 dark creature, +4 Dex, +4 ranks)
- Move Silently skill modifier = +18 (+4 race, +6 dark creature, +4 Dex, +4 ranks)
- Level 1 Illusion Spell DC = 17
- HP = 8 (not great, but I don't intend to be in melee much if I can avoid it)
- AC = 18 (+1 size, +4 Dex, +3 armor)
- 10 Cold Resistance (Dark Creature template)
- Hide in Plain Sight (Dark Creature template)

So... what do you think about this for a start?

P.S. For books, my group has the Completes(except Champion), Races of X, Core, PHB2, and Eberron books. If there is something special in another book, let me know and I'll see if one of my friends has it.

P.P.S. Here is my character sheet (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=20848) for your viewing pleasure.

Seffbasilisk
2007-07-15, 03:48 PM
Seems solid, I'd boost escape artist, but that's just me.

Why holy water?

lotofsnow
2007-07-15, 03:52 PM
Seems solid, I'd boost escape artist, but that's just me.

Why holy water?

Escape Artist you say? Hmm... maybe I'll take those random two points I have in Spellcraft (seeing as we have a Sorc who will probably put ranks in it) and toss them there.

The holy water was just a random item I grabbed. The DM said something about a "mysterious graveyard," so I picked up some anti-undead juice. Maybe I should just drop it and grab a couple of clubs to throw.

PinkysBrain
2007-07-15, 03:55 PM
You will have trouble in the daytime ... do you have to fill the rogue roll? Warlock would suit you better, never short of darkness (or a ranged attack).

Seffbasilisk
2007-07-15, 03:59 PM
Hide in plain sight means he doesn't need shadows or things to hide behind. (and is an AWESOME ability)

And WHY are you suggesting WARLOCK when he wants to play a Beguiler? Total disparity.

I'm assuming he's going for a roguish character, aiming to try out beguiler, and dance around fights instead of just being an eldrich archer.

Also, I'd advice boosting bluff up that one more point. High bluff is useful when you don't want to fight, yet are in a sticky situation with people capable of thinking.

lotofsnow
2007-07-15, 04:00 PM
You will have trouble in the daytime ... do you have to fill the rogue roll? Warlock would suit you better, never short of darkness (or a ranged attack).

I know what you're saying, but, during daylight, I only really lose +8 to my hide, +6 to move silently, and Hide in Plain Sight (who has that at level 2 anyway?).

My daytime Hide will be +16 and Move Silently +12. Not too shabby.

I do have to fill the rogue role. I believe my DM's words when I expressed interest in Beguiler were "They have Trapfinding and Disable Device, right?"

lotofsnow
2007-07-15, 04:05 PM
Hide in plain sight means he doesn't need shadows or things to hide behind. (and is an AWESOME ability)

And WHY are you suggesting WARLOCK when he wants to play a Beguiler? Total disparity.

I'm assuming he's going for a roguish character, aiming to try out beguiler, and dance around fights instead of just being an eldrich archer.

Also, I'd advice boosting bluff up that one more point. High bluff is useful when you don't want to fight, yet are in a sticky situation with people capable of thinking.

Hehe... truer words have ne're been said.

Hide in Plain Sight can't actually be used in daylight, but that's fine. I won't suffer much without it. Put me in a dungeon though, and I'm practically invisible.

I don't think I can boost Bluff, can I? I'm not entirely sure how the skill ranks work with LA. Am I considered to be Level 2 so I can have 5 ranks in each class skill?

Arbitrarity
2007-07-15, 04:20 PM
LA doesn't affect ranks at all. Basically, take character level from your HD, then after determining level based stuff (feats, skill ranks), add the LA to your ECL.

lotofsnow
2007-07-15, 04:21 PM
LA doesn't affect ranks at all. Basically, take character level from your HD, then after determining level based stuff (feats, skill ranks), add the LA to your ECL.

Ok, that's what I thought. So I have 1HD, which means my max skill rank is 4.

Seffbasilisk
2007-07-15, 04:22 PM
My mistake, I saw 2, assumed beguiler level 2...

Renx
2007-07-15, 04:36 PM
What's your 2nd level in?

lotofsnow
2007-07-15, 04:38 PM
What's your 2nd level in?

I don't have a second level. My character has the Dark Creature template, which is +1 LA. I'm a level 1 Beguiler, which makes my ECL 2.

Behold_the_Void
2007-07-15, 04:41 PM
What's your 2nd level in?

He has a +1 LA template.

Looks fine to me.

Renx
2007-07-15, 04:41 PM
Also, you might want to consider Improved Counterspell. I'm not much of a walking D&D dictionary, but counterspelling at low levels can really hinder your opponent. Also, you can play it off as a spell resistance thing, so your rivals and BBEGs will be trying to go around that rather than the actual thing.

However, I'm not really sure about beguilers' spellcasting, so it might not be that good. If you get your DM to agree, you might be able to use your racial abilities for counterspelling. That'd be what... 2-3 1st level and 1 2nd?

/* Edit1:

He has a +1 LA template.
Looks fine to me.

Ah, sorry. Got confused with the 'up to ECL 3 if you choose'.
*/

lotofsnow
2007-07-15, 04:52 PM
Ah, sorry. Got confused with the 'up to ECL 3 if you choose'.

Oh, I see what you mean. Yeah, the ECL 3 only applies if you take a +2 LA. Sorry, that was probably too much information in my introduction and easily confusing.

Regarding Counterspelling... that might actually be a good idea. It would require me to put ranks back into Spellcraft, but that's not a big deal.

Here's my thought on that... a Beguiler's spell list is pretty limited in scope. Widely known spells, such as Magic Missile, aren't even on there and you need to know the spell in oder to counter it (or, in some cases, know a spell with the opposite effect). I'd like to think that with a speed of 50 and maxed ranks in Tumble, I could probably close on a spellcaster and at least attempt to interrupt anything they try to cast if not take them out of the fight for a while with Color Spray or Sleep.

Once I get Dispel Magic though, you can bet your bottom dollar I'll be Counterspelling away ... something I might not have thought of if you hadn't reminded me. So, thanks!

Renx
2007-07-15, 04:55 PM
Oh, I see what you mean. Yeah, the ECL 3 only applies if you take a +2 LA. Sorry, that was probably too much information in my introduction and easily confusing.

NP. I confuse easily.


Regarding Counterspelling... that might actually be a good idea. It would require me to put ranks back into Spellcraft, but that's not a big deal.
*snip*

Once I get Dispel Magic though, you can bet your bottom dollar I'll be Counterspelling away ... something I might not have thought of if you hadn't reminded me. So, thanks!

Try Improved Counterspell. You only have to recognize the school of the spell, and can use a spell slot one level lower than the actual spell. Then reactive counterspell, so no need to ready an action for it :P If you decide to build something around it, you might want to get your DM to go along with the 'counterspelling with spell-like abilities'.

lotofsnow
2007-07-15, 05:01 PM
Then reactive counterspell...

That feat sounds nice... what book is it from?

Renx
2007-07-15, 05:14 PM
That feat sounds nice... what book is it from?

Players' guide to Faerūn. Requires improved counterspell and improved initiative, however. I guess you don't have enough levels in the story to get it. :/ You could always try to get it approved. Some DMs love little stuff like that.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-07-15, 05:22 PM
Aww, you took one of my favorite classes and mixed it with one of my favorite races :smallsmile:. The Dark template looks like a very nice touch and compliments both the Whispergnome and the Beguiler.

Looks like a good, solid build. Counterspelling (as has been recently mentioned) works pretty well with the Beguiler's oodles of spells. Personally, I prefer a more active approach than the defensive one, but it should buy your party the time needed against enemy casters.

Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=805782) is a very well written Beguiler Handbook on the Wizard's optimization boards. You might give it a look for future levels.

lotofsnow
2007-07-15, 06:21 PM
I don't think I'll be able use anything from Forgotten Realms since none of us have the books. I'll ask about using my special abilities as counterspells instead though.

I think I'll drop Spell Focus (Illusion) and pick up Improved Counterspell. With +5 DC modifiers, my spells are difficult to resist as it is, the Spell Focus was just gravy. I've played with this group many times and I don't think anyone has ever tried to Counterspell. I can't wait to see the look on their faces when I "ready an action to counterspell the wizard." You're gonna do who to the whatnow?

Any tips on which skill to take points from to invest into Spellcraft? I have 2 points in the cc skill, Intimidate, as I intend to take a level in Mindbender. I could take those out and gain two ranks in Spellcraft and just hope for good rolls. I could sacrifice two points out of Hide as well, giving me a +22 Hide modifier... nothing to scoff at. I dunno though. Suggestions?

I'm very familiar with the Handbook to Being a Strong Beguiler. I posted in there a couple of times when I was still working out the details for this build. I love it.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-07-15, 07:38 PM
Any tips on which skill to take points from to invest into Spellcraft? I have 2 points in the cc skill, Intimidate, as I intend to take a level in Mindbender. I could take those out and gain two ranks in Spellcraft and just hope for good rolls. I could sacrifice two points out of Hide as well, giving me a +22 Hide modifier... nothing to scoff at. I dunno though. Suggestions?

Since your Hide modifier is so high, those extra 2 points are more overkill at this level than anything (someone with a +0 Wis modifier and no Spot ranks can't even try rolling to see you. Well, they can, but they'll fail no matter what. Hello, flatfooted DC bonus!). Lose them right now, then bring your Hide ranks back as soon as you can.

What I think I love most about your build is that in shadow he has Hide in Plain Sight, while if he has to hide in bright light, Invisibility is just a 2nd level spell away (of which you'll have lots). About the only time people can see you (when you don't want to be seen, anyway) is in a non-shadowy area with True Seeing. (Glitterdust or Fairie Fire would work as well, but they'd have to know you were there first.)

lotofsnow
2007-07-15, 08:59 PM
Since your Hide modifier is so high, those extra 2 points are more overkill at this level than anything (someone with a +0 Wis modifier and no Spot ranks can't even try rolling to see you. Well, they can, but they'll fail no matter what. Hello, flatfooted DC bonus!). Lose them right now, then bring your Hide ranks back as soon as you can.

I never even thought about it that way. I'll make that change now.


What I think I love most about your build is that in shadow he has Hide in Plain Sight, while if he has to hide in bright light, Invisibility is just a 2nd level spell away (of which you'll have lots). About the only time people can see you (when you don't want to be seen, anyway) is in a non-shadowy area with True Seeing. (Glitterdust or Fairie Fire would work as well, but they'd have to know you were there first.)

Thanks. My thought process consisted of figuring out how best to make use of Cloaked Casting. Surprise Casting is pointless until you can do it as a Move action. I think Wizards really dropped the ball by giving Beguilers a "class feature" that anyone can do regardless of class. I decided to ignore it altogether and maybe use it only if it is really needed. Even with Improved Feint and a reach weapon, I'm only a five foot step away from a full attack if I try to Feint. Now, with a gem like Hide in Plain Sight for a measly +1 LA, unless I'm in broad daylight, I'll be getting +1 DCs all the time.

Galathir
2007-07-15, 09:12 PM
Spell Focus (Enchantment) might be a solid choice. With your enchantment spells you can prevent a lot of fights before they even start. Of course you could always pick that up later as your begining enchantment spells probably aren't all that great. I would pick it up instead of Spell Focus (Illusion) anyway. I recently played a Beguiler and while he was level 10-15 during the campaign I found enchatment spells MUCH more useful than illusions, though the odd illusion did come in handy on occasion.

Unsettling Enchantment (I believe it's from Complete Mage) would also be a solid choice though as I don't have my books I don't know what the pre reqs are. Other than that, I don't see any problems. Good luck.

CockroachTeaParty
2007-07-15, 09:22 PM
You sir, are beguiled. And you'll never look back.

I'm playing a beguiler in my RL campaign, and let me tell you, it's a blast. Try not to steal the spotlight too much with your clever spells, razor sharp wit, and tricks up every sleeve.

While I play a humble human with no templates, I'm sure the added abilities of whisper gnomes and shadow creatures will be of great use. Just exercise caution early on, as a well placed battleaxe to the face will take you down pretty quickly. But once you've got a few levels under your belt, there should be no reason that battleaxe guy even knows you're there.

Thinker
2007-07-15, 10:43 PM
As far as power goes you'd be better off with class levels over templates, LA, or HD. The beguiler is a caster so you lose out on both spell-level and caster level. Pumping the Intelligence is a good idea for saves, but personally I'd rather have the higher DC's associated with higher spell-levels and the more powerful spells. Just hope your DM doesn't through too many mindless creatures at you.

On a side note, the character is fairly flavorful. If you have fun playing it, go for it. What is the rest of your group's races? If everyone plays an LA race you won't feel overshadowed, but as a group may not be able to stand up to challenges appropriate for your ECL.

lotofsnow
2007-07-15, 11:14 PM
As far as power goes you'd be better off with class levels over templates, LA, or HD. The beguiler is a caster so you lose out on both spell-level and caster level. Pumping the Intelligence is a good idea for saves, but personally I'd rather have the higher DC's associated with higher spell-levels and the more powerful spells. Just hope your DM doesn't through too many mindless creatures at you.

On a side note, the character is fairly flavorful. If you have fun playing it, go for it. What is the rest of your group's races? If everyone plays an LA race you won't feel overshadowed, but as a group may not be able to stand up to challenges appropriate for your ECL.

Since our campaign is only going to 9th level, I weighed the pros and cons of an 8th level caster against a 9th level caster. For Beguiler casting progression, I don't really miss out on much. I'll still be able to cast 4th level spells at ECL 9, just not as many as I would had I gone full Beguiler. Mindless creatures are an issue with any Beguiler, and I understood that when I chose the class. I'm not a 1-man team though. I'll have the various abilities of the 5 other classes backing me up.

I'm not sure of any of the other players' races. As far as I know, no one else has an LA, so they'll all be 2nd level in their respective classes. Are there monsters that can one-shot me? There sure are. However, level 1 Wizards have been avoiding them for decades, hopefully I can, too.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-07-15, 11:59 PM
Actually, this looks like one of the better Level Adjustments you could take for the Beguiler, if you're planning on taking one. The template meshes very well with the class, and getting the whispergnome bonuses is practically just icing on the cake.

Ramza00
2007-07-16, 12:11 AM
Actually, this looks like one of the better Level Adjustments you could take for the Beguiler, if you're planning on taking one. The template meshes very well with the class, and getting the whispergnome bonuses is practically just icing on the cake.

It is one of the best level adjustments in the game. Especially with LA buyoff. Though getting it via an item for 10 mins a day for 10,800 gp or continuous always on benefits for 22,000 gp makes the LA look less special.

Nebo_
2007-07-16, 12:26 AM
Hide in plain sight means he doesn't need shadows or things to hide behind. (and is an AWESOME ability)

Actually, that's not how it works. It means you can hide while being observed, you still need some sort of concealment to hide.

Ramza00
2007-07-16, 12:30 AM
Actually, that's not how it works. It means you can hide while being observed, you still need some sort of concealment to hide.

Isn't each version of Hide in Plain Sight a little different? The text for each ability is not the same. Thus the ranger one is different than the dark creature which is different from some monster's entry's.

lotofsnow
2007-07-16, 12:38 AM
Isn't each version of Hide in Plain Sight a little different? The text for each ability is not the same. Thus the ranger one is different than the dark creature which is different from some monster's entry's.

The Dark Creature text is somewhat vague. The Shadowdancer ability implies that any sort of concealment is unnecessary:


"A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind."

Dark Creature gives no such requirements. I don't think I'm allowed to quote the Tome of Magic text on here though. It is on page 161 if you want to look it up.


Actually, that's not how it works. It means you can hide while being observed, you still need some sort of concealment to hide.

That's not true. You can't perform a normal Hide check if you're being observed. You're required to find a corner or obtain some sort of concealment or total cover. Hide in Plain Sight is meant to negate the need for concealment or cover, which is why it is such a fantastic ability. It might have certain requirements (i.e. natural terrain, shadows, etc.), but you don't need to duck around a corner.

Ramza00
2007-07-16, 01:01 AM
Ranger is this

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex)

While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed.

so yeah each hide in plain sight is different. I am looking at ToM p161 and the Dark Creature's hide in plain sight is similar to shadowdancer but without the shadow restriction only requiring it not to be daylight.

lotofsnow
2007-07-16, 09:10 AM
Spell Focus (Enchantment) might be a solid choice. With your enchantment spells you can prevent a lot of fights before they even start. Of course you could always pick that up later as your begining enchantment spells probably aren't all that great. I would pick it up instead of Spell Focus (Illusion) anyway. I recently played a Beguiler and while he was level 10-15 during the campaign I found enchatment spells MUCH more useful than illusions, though the odd illusion did come in handy on occasion.

Unsettling Enchantment (I believe it's from Complete Mage) would also be a solid choice though as I don't have my books I don't know what the pre reqs are. Other than that, I don't see any problems. Good luck.

Most Beguiler builds I see focus on the "Illusion" aspect throughout, but there is no reason that one couldn't play an enchantment focused one. I had originally selected Spell Focus (Illusion) as a 1st level feat, but there actually aren't that many 0 & 1st level Illusion spells. Unfortunately, the same goes with Enchantment. I think the Spell Focus feats will be especially handy once I have a few levels of spells to choose from. Right now though, I'm afraid they would go to waste.

SMDVogrin
2007-07-16, 04:24 PM
What I think I love most about your build is that in shadow he has Hide in Plain Sight, while if he has to hide in bright light, Invisibility is just a 2nd level spell away (of which you'll have lots).

Or even better than Invisibility, Blinding Color Surge. Just a 2nd lvl spell, gives you invisibility with the benefit of also possibly blinding a target. Great spell to kick off a fight for a Beguiler.

Admittedly, it's 1 rd/lvl invisibility, rather than 1 min/lvl, but that shouldn't be a real difference in a fight (you're probably going to break that invis in only a rd or 2, anyways)

Ramza00
2007-07-16, 04:43 PM
One thing to never forget with a beguiler (though it won't matter much to the original poster since he is going to end at lvl 9 or so). Is that Beguilers have UMD. UMD combine with spell slots makes runestaves of spells off your class list suddenly on your class list and thus spells you can now cast.

Also combine this with shadowcraft mage for extra fun :smallwink:

Mike_G
2007-07-16, 04:48 PM
One thing to never forget with a beguiler (though it won't matter much to the original poster since he is going to end at lvl 9 or so). Is that Beguilers have UMD. UMD combine with spell slots makes runestaves of spells off your class list suddenly on your class list and thus spells you can now cast.

Also combine this with shadowcraft mage for extra fun :smallwink:

Can't underestimate UMD.

My Beguiler actually substituted for a missing Cleric with a Cure LIght Wounds wand and a handful of scrolls of Restoration and so on.

With a limited class list, UMD can help fill the gaps nicely.

lotofsnow
2007-07-16, 05:17 PM
Can't underestimate UMD.

My Beguiler actually substituted for a missing Cleric with a Cure LIght Wounds wand and a handful of scrolls of Restoration and so on.

With a limited class list, UMD can help fill the gaps nicely.

Yep, I'm in total agreement. Actually, I just found out that our Cleric is actually playing a Favored Soul, so no ability to switch out for cure spells. At first opportunity, I'm going to get a nice wand of Cure Light Wounds to use if necessary.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-07-17, 12:44 AM
Yep, I'm in total agreement. Actually, I just found out that our Cleric is actually playing a Favored Soul, so no ability to switch out for cure spells. At first opportunity, I'm going to get a nice wand of Cure Light Wounds to use if necessary.

If you're looking for the most bang for your buck, get a wand of Lesser Vigor (Complete Divine) instead. IIRC, Cure Light Wounds wands have a ratio of 1 hp/3 gp. Very efficient, and the most cost-effective healing in core. However, Lesser Vigor wands have a 1 hp/1 gp ratio.

The "problem" is that this makes you an after-battle healer--unlike CLW's instant restoration of hp, Lessor Vigor gives Fast Healing 1 for 15 rounds. Then again, healing during battle isn't terribly efficient either.

lukelightning
2007-07-17, 06:43 AM
I'm playing a changeling beguiler (just got to level 2, woo hoo!), and I've made some observations:

Spell focus is the best feat you can take, since most of your spells are enchantment or illusion. I'm planning on taking spell focus and greater spell focus for both illusion and enchantment.

Skill trick from Complete Scoundrel are worth looking into.

Cloaked casting is a TRAP, as General Akbar would say. Sure, it's nice to get that +1 DC, but don't try to feint to get it. You can only feint in melee combat. A beguiler has no place in melee combat. You have virtually no touch spell. Don't waste feats to get improved feint (which also requires combat expertise). If you want to get your cloaked casting bonus, use invisibility or hiding or other ways to deny your target's dex bonus.

lotofsnow
2007-07-17, 07:27 AM
I'm playing a changeling beguiler (just got to level 2, woo hoo!), and I've made some observations:

Spell focus is the best feat you can take, since most of your spells are enchantment or illusion. I'm planning on taking spell focus and greater spell focus for both illusion and enchantment.

Skill trick from Complete Scoundrel are worth looking into.

Cloaked casting is a TRAP, as General Akbar would say. Sure, it's nice to get that +1 DC, but don't try to feint to get it. You can only feint in melee combat. A beguiler has no place in melee combat. You have virtually no touch spell. Don't waste feats to get improved feint (which also requires combat expertise). If you want to get your cloaked casting bonus, use invisibility or hiding or other ways to deny your target's dex bonus.

Spell focus is so very important, I know that. I went ahead and took the Spellcasting Prodigy feat from Dragonlance Age of Mortals. It essentially gives me +1 to my DCs, so it's like taking Focus feats in all my spells. Not too shabby, am I right?

Which skill tricks do you suggest?

A common suggestion is concealed spellcasting. My issue with that is, in the Races of Stone "Skills" section, it suggests you use just plain Slight of Hand to do the exact same thing (hide your spellcasting by making a slight of hand check opposed by your opponent's spot check). That's without wasting skill points on a trick. Now, I don't have any ranks in Slight of Hand yet, but I will eventually.

I'm going to argue with you now though. It isn't Cloaked Casting that is the trap, it's Surprise Casting. Cloaked Casting is an amazing ability. Surprising Casting isn't even an ability unique to Beguilers. Here, Wizards has granted Beguilers "permission" to use an ability at level 2 that everyone else can use at level 1, Feint.

But I agree that melee will be the death of me. As you can see, I took the noncombatent flaw, so my character shouldn't even be tempted to close with a monster. I intend to use stuff like "Hide in Plain Sight" to gain my Cloaked Casting bonus. Once I get invisibility, I will use that when necessary, too.

Now, I've heard it suggested that a whip can be used to Feint/Surprise Cast. I was under the impression that, since a whip doesn't actually threaten any areas, it can't be used in that way. Can anyone confirm this?

Keld Denar
2007-07-17, 08:11 AM
Nice character, lots of fun flavor and getting off a sneak attack style suggestion or illusion then fading away is kind of cool.

I'd almost suggest against improved counterspell though. It lets you counterspell using the same school, but since beguilers only really know 2 schools (enchantment and illusion) you can only improved counterspell those 1/3 of the wizard spell list. Granted, they are good ones to counterspell, but not the be all end all. Dispel magic makes up some of the difference, but it'd be often times more effective to attack with spells to confuse and
"beguile" your opponents than spending a round waiting to counterspell only to have the party get fireballed when you can't do anything against it.

Just my thoughts anyway

A pclass you might look into is shadowcraft mage. You can use your illusion spells to simulate spells that arn't on your list, which basically means you can use a hightened silent image to replicate any spell of any level you can cast. This lets you make up for any missing buffs your party might have, as a 60% real GMW in the hands of the party fighter does 100% damage, and a 70% real bull str or bears endurance gives full str or con.

lotofsnow
2007-07-17, 08:24 AM
Nice character, lots of fun flavor and getting off a sneak attack style suggestion or illusion then fading away is kind of cool.

I'd almost suggest against improved counterspell though. It lets you counterspell using the same school, but since beguilers only really know 2 schools (enchantment and illusion) you can only improved counterspell those 1/3 of the wizard spell list. Granted, they are good ones to counterspell, but not the be all end all. Dispel magic makes up some of the difference, but it'd be often times more effective to attack with spells to confuse and
"beguile" your opponents than spending a round waiting to counterspell only to have the party get fireballed when you can't do anything against it.

Just my thoughts anyway

After hearing folks above suggest Improved Counterspell, I went ahead and checked the Beguiler's spell list. Actually, there is a surprising number of schools represented at each level. Now, Evocation and Necromancy are seriously lacking, but Conjuration, Divination, and a smattering of Abjuration are available pretty much every level. Remember, too, I have access to my entire spell list, so even with a single Conjuration spell at 1st level, I can counterspell summonings until I run out of spell slots.


A pclass you might look into is shadowcraft mage. You can use your illusion spells to simulate spells that arn't on your list, which basically means you can use a hightened silent image to replicate any spell of any level you can cast. This lets you make up for any missing buffs your party might have, as a 60% real GMW in the hands of the party fighter does 100% damage, and a 70% real bull str or bears endurance gives full str or con.

Shadowcraft Mage is awesome; however, since this campaign is only going to level 9, I won't be able to access it until the last level (unless I use some Heighten Spell/Earth Spell cheese, but I doubt my DM would allow it). I'm not too sure about PrCs. I might take a level in Mindbender to delay my second Advanced Learning. Also, the Earth Dreamer PrC seems like it was made for sneaky beguilers, but that class only really becomes great at 4th-5th levels.

lukelightning
2007-07-17, 08:41 AM
The skill tricks I'm planning on are cloaked casting (yeah, I know you can do it with the Races of Stone rules, but the trick is automatic, not opposed, and I don't plan on spending any more ranks in sleight of hand), and the two disguise tricks: assume quirk and the other one that lets you bluff to recover from getting your disguise penetrated.

I've noticed that without even trying, my diplomacy skill has skyrocketed because of all the synergy and racial bonuses I got. I was trying to go for a sneaky lying SOB beguiler, but right now I don't even have to lie, I just have to be schmarmy and use diplomacy to make friend and influence people.

lotofsnow
2007-07-17, 08:54 AM
The skill tricks I'm planning on are cloaked casting (yeah, I know you can do it with the Races of Stone rules, but the trick is automatic, not opposed, and I don't plan on spending any more ranks in sleight of hand), and the two disguise tricks: assume quirk and the other one that lets you bluff to recover from getting your disguise penetrated.

I've noticed that without even trying, my diplomacy skill has skyrocketed because of all the synergy and racial bonuses I got. I was trying to go for a sneaky lying SOB beguiler, but right now I don't even have to lie, I just have to be schmarmy and use diplomacy to make friend and influence people.

You might want to take a look at that conceal spellcasting trick again. It does allow a Spot check to debunk it. If it didn't, oh ho ho, I would take that in a second.

lukelightning
2007-07-17, 09:06 AM
You might want to take a look at that conceal spellcasting trick again. It does allow a Spot check to debunk it. If it didn't, oh ho ho, I would take that in a second.
The trick would certainly work on me, 'cuz I obviously fail my spot check quite easily.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-07-17, 11:46 AM
If you're the party face, Social Recovery (Bluff check to replace a failed Diplomacy check at -10 penalty) is amazing, and I only now came up with why that is.

Normally, it'd look like a mediocre at best social skill trick. Your Diplomacy is usually going to be higher than your Bluff. And the -10 penalty is really painful. But guess what? You're a Beguiler. At level 6, you have one of the best spells in the game on your list. Which spell is that? Why, Glibness, of course. +30 to Bluff for 10 min/level. Which means that if you've cast glibness in the previous hour or so, you can make a Bluff check at +20 to replace your Diplomacy check. Which means... you win.

lotofsnow
2007-07-17, 11:57 AM
I don't believe I'm going to be the party's face. We have a Sorcerer and a Favored Soul who should easily be able to take that role. I have ranks in Bluff mostly for the usefulness in feinting and distracting.

Have you any experience with the "Timely Misdirection" skill trick? If I find myself in melee, feinting and moving away without an AoO could be very useful. Would the monster still be denied its Dex to AC if I move away? That could make the trick even nicer.

lotofsnow
2007-07-17, 12:27 PM
I just re-read the description for Improved Counterspell. Apparently I failed my Spot check the first time through just like my friend, lukelightning, up there. I didn't realize that the spell you cast has to be one or more levels higher than the spell being cast by the enemy caster. This means, at first level, Improved Counterspell is somewhat worthless, since I'm not really worried about counterspelling too many cantrips with my useful level 1 slots.

That said, I think I'll change my 3rd first level feat from Improved Counterspell to Spell Focus (Illusion) to get rid of the requirement for Shadowcraft Mage.

Or maybe I could do something wild and crazy and pick up Skill Focus (UMD). What do you guys think of that?