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Catharsis
2007-07-15, 03:35 PM
One of the character concepts I'm itching to play is a true neutral cleric of Akadi, the goddess of elemental air. She would basically be out for spiritual enlightenment rather than to evangelize and do good. The cloistered cleric seems like a perfect fit for her. In particular, her heavy armor goes against the airy concept a bit... (though protecting herself against the cruel Earth-based world out there sort of works, and Divine Vigor helps too). However...

- We usually play at low to mid levels, i.e. maybe 1-12, where fighting is still important and cleric spells not über yet. Seven levels are a long time to wait for Divine Power. Turning undead is nice, though.
- None of us are seasoned gamers and have never met Batman or CoDzilla; in fact, my girlfriend felt her cleric was outgunned by my sorcerer and outfought by the ranger (!) and barbarian back in our first campaign... and the Cloistered Cleric looks like it needs even more skill than the regular Cleric to play efficiently.
- Everyone seems to accept "full caster" as reason enough to call the CC powerful, but the spell list is clearly weaker than the arcane one, and rather vulnerable to SR.

Oh, and I'd like to see a CC build or two. Would you dump Str and Dex and become a divine wizard? Keep Dex for the sake of AC? Is Cha 12 enough for turning (it certainly is for Divine Vigor :smallwink: )?

What are your takes on this?

Diggorian
2007-07-15, 03:51 PM
Were I to make a CC I'd likely do ability priority: Wis, Cha, Con then Int, or Int then Con. The later two options depend on if he's gonna be bookish(Int) or a traveler(Con). The player in my game made a battlefield healer, so Con to the precendence.

Their casting is nice cause they get the full cleric list plus a few arcane spells and dont need to research them. They just know them. More versatility than RAW cleric, and I dont see an especial vulnerability to SR.

Callix
2007-07-15, 04:08 PM
The Cloistered Cleric is no less of a buffer than the full cleric. But with no heavy armor and a poor BAB they tend much more towards the party buffer than the self buffer. Oh, and even wizards don't dump Dex. *Clerics* dump Dex. Low dex is the archetypal heavy-armor, shield, never-pick-up-a-ranged-weapon guy, not someone who has to fight monstrosities with nothing but a robe/leather vest/breastplate even. Still, Con, Int, Wis and Cha are all more important than Dex. Str is much less. But a lot of divine feats get better as your Cha improves, so 12 is probably not really enough. I know I saw one feat in one of the Completes that turned a turn attempt into fast healing (Cha modifier) for (1+Cha modifier) rounds, for everyone in 30ft. That was probably overpowered, but you get the idea. Quadratic scaling with Cha.

TheOOB
2007-07-15, 10:41 PM
With enough turn attempts you can divine metamagic a persistant divine power or divine favor, turning you back into a good fighter.

Thinker
2007-07-15, 10:56 PM
Your domain choices can also affect your feeling of power. If you choose 2 good domains you can supplement your spell-list very well. Another good alternative is the Archivist from Heroes of Horror. Its very much like a wizard, except divine. It may also be the second most powerful class (most powerful goes to Artificer, but its close imo).

CASTLEMIKE
2007-07-16, 01:55 AM
Over time mechanically many of the spellcasting classes are renamed or tweaked for other spellcasters.

It would be interesting using the Cloistered Cleric with a Favored Soul and using the Ultimate Magus PRC as the Ultimate Mystic PRC and changing Arcana prereq to Religion and the Any Meta to a Domain (Spontandeous Divine Spellcasting and Non Spontaneous Spellcasting would leave it open for an Archivist or a Cloistered Cleric) which could be a lot of fun in a level 1 - 12 leveling up campaign. This would give you lots of spells for casting.

Wisdom, Charisma, (Probably Con or Int (to taste and personal preference), Dex, St)

Catharsis
2007-07-16, 06:46 AM
Re: Divine Metacheese -- I'm staying away from that.

Re: Domains -- I'm choosing Travel and Trickery, and intend to play her accordingly. :smallwink: As a CC, I actually have the skill points to make use of Bluff as a class skill...


But a lot of divine feats get better as your Cha improves, so 12 is probably not really enough. I know I saw one feat in one of the Completes that turned a turn attempt into fast healing (Cha modifier) for (1+Cha modifier) rounds, for everyone in 30ft. That was probably overpowered, but you get the idea. Quadratic scaling with Cha.
Those feats are perfect for paladins, who have a huge Charisma and nothing else to do with their turn attempts. Divine Shield is also a very nice one. For my CC, however, I don't know if I can afford much Cha. A 14 is doable, but Fast Healing 2 for 3 rounds is hardly overpowered... except maybe at the first few levels before you get that wand of Lesser Vigor. The good thing about it, though, is that it doesn't use up spell slots.

Here are a few builds I'm considering, to give you an idea of the point-buy we've been using so far:

High Charisma: S 9, D 12, C 14, I 10, W 17, X 16
Mid Charisma: S 9, D 14, C 14, I 10, W 17, X 14
Low Charisma: S 9, D 14, C 14, I 10, W 18, X 12

I set Int to 10, since 7 skill points (human) already seem quite generous to me, especially since the skill list is not exactly mindboggling. Though I would get some more mileage out of Knowledge skills and Lore, I find it hard to give up survivability in the form of Dex and Con for it.

Is it a crime to set Wisdom to anything but 18? Going from 17 to 18 costs me as much as from 14 to 16 or 12 to 14... and I do get that stat increase at level 4.

The Str 9 is already painfully low, I will be running around with medium load in the first level or two until I can afford a mithral shirt and a darkwood shield.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-07-16, 08:51 AM
The Adaptive Learning Feat to take adavantage of the skill points and a Heward's Handy Haversack as you level up to address the load issue.

A mid charisma S 11 Dex 12.

Catharsis
2007-07-16, 09:31 AM
I could even afford S 12 D 12 in the mid-Charisma build, since our point-buy is somewhat nonlinear. However, that S 12 feels like a total waste as soon as I don't have to worry about the load anymore (which will be, like, after the first adventure). It's not like I'll ever be useful with a weapon either. On the other hand, D 12 just screams "full plate" or "painfully low AC". Maybe I should just forget about having a decent AC and accept my role as a background caster.

Life as a regular cleric would be so much easier... I'd simply go S 16, D 12, C 12, I 10, W 17, X 12, wear full plate and spend those first few levels bashing stuff with a morningstar. Divine Vigor, which I'd have from the very start, would add extra HP and solve the speed problem...

But there's something about sacrificing early-level power and survivability in favor of flavor and skills that appeals to me in a strange way. :smallamused:

As for skills, I would probably ask the DM to give me Sense Motive as a Cloistered Cleric class skill. That just makes oodles of sense, and is a useful niche to fill. Our current party believes anything an NPC says. :smallsigh:

ZeroNumerous
2007-07-16, 09:50 AM
My suggestion?

Screw DEX. You don't suffer arcane spell failure because you're a divine caster. Further, the only penalty for wearing armor that you aren't proficient in is taking the ACP to attack rolls. A feycrafted mithral full plate(total cost: 10,900 gold) has an ACP of 2. One Righteous Might and Divine Power later and you're smashing away like a normal cleric.

Stats: My suggestion is this: 10/8/14/14/18/14. That 10 will let you have 16 full-buffed, while the Charisma is fairly low, you can take Extra Turning at 3rd(or 1st if you're human) to give you a grand total of 9 attempts.

The problem with CC is that people play it like a normal Cleric. It's not. It's a knowledge-heavy wizard/cleric hybrid. You rely much more on your spells than normal Clerics, and certainly aren't going to be as capable as a normal cleric in a straight fight.

At low levels, I suggest using alot of low-level buffs to make up for your weaker attack bonus. A bull's strength before(or during) the battle is abit more useful for you since it'll make you fighting-capable. For the barbarian, it's just +2 damage.

Diggorian
2007-07-16, 09:58 AM
Maybe I should just forget about having a decent AC and accept my role as a background caster.

I concur. This is the fundamental shift of attitude to be made to effectively play a CC. My player with this variant is still adjusting to this and was nearly eaten by a giant ant. Load up the Wizard melee tactics: Dont be in it.:smallamused: I've seen a feat that allows healing as a ranged touch ray, cant recall it's name though.

What skill will you swap out for Sense Motive.

MrNexx
2007-07-16, 01:04 PM
Ever keep track of damage done, just for fun? I did this once while playing a Cloistered Cleric, and there's something to remember:

If they hit because of your buff bonuses, all of that damage belongs to you. If you gave them a damage bonus from buffing, then any damage done by that bonus belongs to you.

A Cloistered Cleric goes really well if you take the Scribe Scroll feat (I often go for the Magic and Rune domains; ability to use wizard magic items and free Scribe Scroll, plus some useful feats; also fits in well with Boccob, my favorite PH deity), and fill out scroll after scroll of low-level buffs and other useful spells. Stand back and sling in between throwing your buff spells.

Catharsis
2007-07-17, 04:35 PM
The changes I would probably ask from my DM are:

- Allow Sense Motive as a class skill. If I need to remove a skill in return, I'd take Decypher Script, that's what I have a scroll of Comprehend Language for. Spot/Listen would also be nice, but more difficult to justify, flavor-wise.

- Allow me to apply the Wis modifier to Knowledge skill checks instead of Int. If I'm going to be the party library, I might as well be an effective one. The Lore class feature can stay the way it is; it's balanced for the Bard, after all, who doesn't have Int as a through-the-roof stat.

All in all, the standard Cleric is still enticingly easy in comparison... but I'd like the flavor and the new roleplaying angle.