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Ziegander
2016-12-05, 10:37 PM
I know many of you probably read these new Martial Archetypes (http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/2016_Fighter_UA_1205_1.pdf) and became excited to try them out at your game table, but I found them all to be disappointing in some way. So, I've decided to put my own spin onto all of them. ALL OF THEM!

ARCANE ARCHER
Putting it bluntly, this Martial Archetype should not exist. It should be a Ranger Archetype where it makes more sense thematically and can be put to much better use mechanically. I'm renaming it and refocusing the concept, changing the mechanics almost entirely. This Martial Archetype is a bland rehash of the same superiority dice we keep seeing in so many UA Fighter subclasses, which I'm simply tired of, but it's also more limited.

ELDRITCH VANGUARD
The archetypal Eldritch Vanguard serves the same arcane traditions as the Eldritch Knight, not from the front lines of their arcane army, but rather in the open field, on the high hilltop, and behind enemy lines as advance scouts and couriers without peer. While the Eldritch Vanguard places specific emphasis on the Evocation and Illusion schools of wizardry, they also learn a some of the woodsman's magics, allowing them to better traverse hostile countrysides and deliver devastating ranged attacks on their foes.

SPELLCASTING
As Eldritch Knight, except you may learn wizard spells from the Evocation or Illusion schools, as well as the following spells (should you choose):


1ST LEVEL -- Goodberry, Hunter's Mark
2ND LEVEL -- Cordon of Arrows, Pass Without Trace
3RD LEVEL -- Conjure Barrage, Lightning Arrow
4TH LEVEL -- Conjure Woodland Beings

VANGUARD'S LORE
At 3rd level, you learn some skill relating to the typical duties of the Eldritch Vanguard. You learn to understand magical theory and develop a measure of survival skill for wandering the wild.

You gain proficiency in Arcana as well as one of the following: Athletics, Nature, Perception, Stealth, or Survival.

CONJURE ARROWS
At 3rd level, you learn how to conjure arrows or bolts out of thin air. As an action you can conjure 20 nonmagical arrows or bolts which appear in your hand or in a suitable container on your person, such as a quiver. These arrows last for up to 8 hours, or until you use this ability again.

ELEMENTAL ARROW
At 7th level, whenever you hit with a bow or crossbow attack you may expend a spell slot of 1st level or higher. If you do, the attack is considered magical and deals 1d6 additional damage per slot level of the expended spell slot and you may change all the damage dealt by the attack to cold, fire, or lightning damage.

For example, if you hit with a Heavy Crossbow and expend a 2nd level spell slot your attack overcomes resistance as a magical weapon would deal damage equal to 1d10 + 2d6 + your Dexterity modifier, and you could change that damage from force to your choice of cold, fire, or lightning damage.

GUIDED ARROW
Starting at 10th level, when you would miss with a bow or crossbow attack you may use your bonus action to roll 1d6 and add the result to your attack roll.

After using this ability you can't use it again until you complete a long or short rest.

ARCANE CUNNING
Starting at 15th level, when you use your action to cast a spell you may Dash, Disengage, or Hide as a bonus action. You may do so before or after your spellcasting has been completed.

SEEKING ARROW
Starting at 18th level, when you make your first attack on your turn with a bow or crossbow you may use your bonus action and expend a spell slot to automatically hit with that attack. If you do, then for the next hour, plus 1 hour per slot level above 1st, you know the direction to and your distance from the target of your attack and you have advantage on Perception checks made to hear or spot the target of your attack as well as on Survival checks made to follow tracks made by your target.

After using this ability you can't use it again until you complete a long rest.

KNIGHT
The archetypal Knight is a shining beacon of valor and a colossus on the battlefield, able to shrug off attacks with heavy armor and protect allies from harm. As the Knight wades into combat he seeks out the mightiest foe to engage and keep away from the rest of his party. His courage and endurance are a source of inspiration to those fighting alongside him.

This version of the Knight archetype doesn't invalidate the Sentinel feat and loses Rapid Strike for more party buffs. It's still a very reaction-based archetype, but the language is cleaned up and your reasons for using your reaction are less conflicting with each other. It's built to get in early and protect and encourage allies.
CAVALRY CHARGER
Starting at 3rd level, mounting or dismounting costs you only 5ft of movement, rather than half your speed. Additionally, you have advantage on saving throws against any effect that would cause you to fall or be knocked off your mount, and if you would fall or be knocked off your mount, you land on your feet as long as you are not incapacitated.

Your speed is not reduced for wearing heavy armor, and you may add half your Proficiency bonus to Initiative checks instead of your Dexterity modifier.

When you use your action to Dash, you may use your bonus action to make one melee weapon attack or to grab a creature. Finally, if you make a melee weapon attack after Dashing at least 10ft in a straight line, or while mounted and after your mount has moved at least 10ft in a straight line, you deal 1d8 extra damage with that attack.

BULWARK OF DEFENSE
At 3rd level, if you have not used your reaction this round when an enemy within 5ft of you makes an attack roll against a creature other than you, that attack roll has disadvantage. Furthermore, once per turn you may make an Opportunity Attack (PHB, pg 195) without using your reaction. And finally, if an enemy within 5ft of you would move out of your reach you may use your reaction to follow them to a distance up to half your speed.

NOBLE CAVALRY
Starting at 7th level, at the start of your first turn during a combat encounter you may choose up to six friendly creatures who are within 30ft of you, who can see you or hear you, and who can understand you. Creatures chosen this way gain 1d8 temporary hit points which last until the end of the encounter. During the encounter, a creature with temporary hit points from this feature can spend a bonus action on their turn to lose any remaining temporary hit points and add the number of temporary hit points lost this way to an attack roll, ability check, or saving throw. A creature can also use their reaction to lose remaining temporary hit points and add the number lost to their AC against one attack.

The temporary hit points granted by this feature become 1d10 at 10th level and 1d12 at 15th level.

Additionally, you gain proficiency in two of the following skills: Animal Handling, History, Insight, Persuasion, or Religion. In place of gaining proficiency in a skill, you may instead learn a new language.

HOLD THE LINE
Starting at 10th level, you have advantage on saving throws against being frightened.

If a creature did not start its turn within your reach, but moves into your reach during its turn you may use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against that creature. Further, melee weapon attacks you make on another creature's turn deal an extra 1d8 damage. Finally, allies within 5ft of you gain a +1 bonus to AC.

SURGE OF VICTORY
At 15th level, if you use your Action Surge feature during an encounter allies within 60ft of you who can see you or hear you gain 1d12 temporary hit points. Though these temporary hit points do not fade at the end of the encounter, creatures otherwise treat these temporary hit points like they had gained them from your Noble Cavalry feature. If a creature who gains temporary hit points in this way was frightened, that effect ends.

STEEL WIND
Starting at 18th level, when you make an Opportunity Attack or when you use your bonus action to attack after Dashing, you may make two melee weapon attacks, rather than one.

Furthermore, you run toward danger, not away from it. You cannot be frightened.

SAMURAI
Coming soon...

SHARPSHOOTER
Maybe... not coming soon... I see no reason for this archetype to exist...

Steampunkette
2016-12-06, 07:26 AM
I deeply disagree that the Arcane Archer should be a Ranger Archetype...

...

It should be a Warlock Archetype.

Specifically one that allows the warlock the option of channeling Eldritch Blast through their bow/crossbow/whatever (Thus using Dex mod rather than an invocation for Charisma mod) to launch four arrows in a round or use invocation to instead empower their one shot per round with a nifty magical rider on it. (And give them a Pact of the Bow option so they can get a second attack but only use one archery-invocation a round).

The damage/MAD difference on the EB through the bow would be minimal (Since a Pact Rod does the Attack/Damage increase as well as any bow does), it would be a class built around spellcasting some but with only a few spell slots available at any time, and with some fluffing of the Pact Itself (Pact of the Weave or something similar) you can ditch the whole "Wicked person binding themself to darkness" for the lore aspect.

Ziegander
2016-12-06, 10:46 AM
I deeply disagree that the Arcane Archer should be a Ranger Archetype...

...

It should be a Warlock Archetype.

Specifically one that allows the warlock the option of channeling Eldritch Blast through their bow/crossbow/whatever (Thus using Dex mod rather than an invocation for Charisma mod) to launch four arrows in a round or use invocation to instead empower their one shot per round with a nifty magical rider on it. (And give them a Pact of the Bow option so they can get a second attack but only use one archery-invocation a round).

The damage/MAD difference on the EB through the bow would be minimal (Since a Pact Rod does the Attack/Damage increase as well as any bow does), it would be a class built around spellcasting some but with only a few spell slots available at any time, and with some fluffing of the Pact Itself (Pact of the Weave or something similar) you can ditch the whole "Wicked person binding themself to darkness" for the lore aspect.

While this could be interesting, I don't see how any of that is remotely similar to what an Arcane Archer has been in the past or what people expect an Arcane Archer to be when they hear the name. Warlocks don't have archetypes, though, they have Pacts and Patrons. A Pact of the Bow could be done, certainly, but a lot what you're suggesting would have to come with a Patron's support, and thus it would have to be a specifically archery-based Patron, which feels weird, if not impossible (the Vestige, Laraje, anyone?).

Anyway, Knight's up. I really wanted to work fear resistance/immunity in there somewhere, but it's already cram-packed full of stuff. ***k it, I added it. It's probably too much now, but I love it.

Sicarius Victis
2016-12-06, 12:43 PM
I deeply disagree that the Arcane Archer should be a Ranger Archetype...

...

It should be a Warlock Archetype.

Specifically one that allows the warlock the option of channeling Eldritch Blast through their bow/crossbow/whatever (Thus using Dex mod rather than an invocation for Charisma mod) to launch four arrows in a round or use invocation to instead empower their one shot per round with a nifty magical rider on it. (And give them a Pact of the Bow option so they can get a second attack but only use one archery-invocation a round).

The damage/MAD difference on the EB through the bow would be minimal (Since a Pact Rod does the Attack/Damage increase as well as any bow does), it would be a class built around spellcasting some but with only a few spell slots available at any time, and with some fluffing of the Pact Itself (Pact of the Weave or something similar) you can ditch the whole "Wicked person binding themself to darkness" for the lore aspect.

What, like this (http://www.middlefingerofvecna.com/2016/01/the-wild-hunt.html)?

Also, concerning the OP: These subclasses are interesting, but Im really not that good of a judge of balance.

DeAnno
2016-12-06, 02:03 PM
I've started rewriting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?508086-Fixing-the-New-Fighter-Archetypes&p=21460445) all of these new archetypes, but now I'm really starting to want to write the Knight as a full, stand-alone class... Not sure how I would do archetypes for it though, since it's already a pretty specific concept...

This is a weird idea, but maybe you could make Knight a SuperType. Have it replace the core Fighter features, but have it share archetypes with the Fighter class. So you could be a Battlemaster Knight instead of a Battlemaster Fighter or what have you.

Ziegander
2016-12-06, 02:17 PM
Actually... that's a very cool idea...

Steampunkette
2016-12-06, 03:07 PM
Yes, Ziegander, a lot of it would have to come from the Patron. Which is why I suggested a refluffing to get away from the whole "Bound to an entity of darkness" angle.

The Chassis of Warlock is great for an Arcane Archer, is the point. A few spells to throw around in combat, a couple of attacks (with the right invocation), and the ability to make Arcane Shots into Invocations for selection.

Mechanically it fits really well. Better than the Ranger would. Particularly because at high level it could "Keep Up" with the fighter's number of attacks by using Eldritch Blast through the bow for 4 ranged attacks without expending actual spell slots. Though it wouldn't be able to use spells in the process.

But you could also give it Gish-ability like Sicarius Victus sort of did and like I suggested in the invocations that allow them to do something magical with one attack in a round and if they grab a "Pact of the Bow" ability they get a second attack.

Lore-wise it doesn't fit any more than trying to shoehorn a Ranger into Arcane Magic and ignoring all the "This class gets a pile of nature-abilities and favored enemies and all" tacked onto it which has nothing to do with magic and everything to do with being a ranger. But the abilities would be closer, mechanically.

clash
2016-12-06, 04:11 PM
I dont mean to be rude or anything but I dont understand why everyone assumes that fighting with a bow is the rangers thing. It isnt. the fighter is meant to be the best at fighting with any weapon. Period. Ranged or melee makes no difference, that's why the fighter gets the archery fighting style. The theme of a ranger is not a bowman. The theme of a ranger is a nature-centric hunter. Sorry I dont mean to rant, I just cant stand how everyone seems to be under the impression that fighting with a bow is what defines a ranger thematically.

Steampunkette
2016-12-06, 04:28 PM
That's a big part of it, Clash, but they're also a half-caster, which provides a spellcasting base for the Arcane Archer class. Add in some of the ranger's nicer "Do a thing with arrows" spells and it becomes even more attractive.

I definitely agree, though, that all of the other stuff (Favored Enemy/Primeval Awareness/Etc) bog it down -way- too much for it to feel like an Arcane Archer and instead make it into a slightly different archery hunter ranger.

Ziegander
2016-12-06, 05:16 PM
Personally, I think the MFoV team has already done a great job of the Arcane Archer with their Ranger Archetype (http://www.middlefingerofvecna.com/2015/06/arcane-archer.html).

Steampunkette
2016-12-06, 06:26 PM
Yeah, those are neat abilities. They'd make a good basis for an arcane archer. The issue is the whole rest of the Ranger class.

Arcane Archers don't have Favored Enemies they prefer to kill over all others. They're not Woodswomen who ignore difficult terrain in favored environments. They're not Divine Casters who call on nature and happen to also have access to a couple of arcane spells on the side. They don't sacrifice spell slots to figure out whether any monsters are in the area. They're not trackers.

Arcane Archers are people who use some magic and some archery and put them together to be better than other archers by gaining interesting secondary mechanics.

There's too much "Not Arcane Archer" tied up in the Ranger, mechanically speaking, for it to make a good Arcane Archer.

Steampunkette
2016-12-06, 09:53 PM
I -really- like your knight, Ziegander. That's vastly better than what was provided.

Llama513
2016-12-06, 09:57 PM
I would like to present my thoughts about the Arcane Archer, and why it should remain a Fighter as it matches the focus of a fighter.
As a Fighter your focus is on mastering your weapon of choice, in the Arcane Archers case the Bow, they just combined a bit of magic into their archery, where as for a Ranger you are a natural explore and scout first, and usually an archer second, you just happen to have a bit more magical talent which is why they stand out more as archers, as up until now they were the best archery class, which due to the nature of fighter the Ranger should not have been as a fighter that chose to master archery should, and now is better than a Ranger in archery

Ivogel
2016-12-07, 05:22 AM
Also really digging your knight, but i feel it should be a base class because your knoght is better than the other fighter archetypes available.

maybe all suggest on the survey it should be a base class? ;)

Ziegander
2016-12-07, 10:59 AM
So I rather liked the Samurai from this UA, it's not perfect, and Fighting Spirit is both overpowered and competes against some of its later features, but it hit a lot of the right notes. Someone wrote up a comparison between the Champion and the Samurai and though I find Champion to be lacking in many ways, Samurai was still shown to be essentially even more lacking (despite seeming better on the surface).

What suggestions do you all have for fixing the Samurai archetype?

Riker
2016-12-07, 11:33 AM
Ziegander,

NICE WORK on changes to the Knight. Anyone else feel that the Samurai's Elegant Courtier might fit in nicely with the Knight too?

Maybe make a distinction between knights who were predominantly mounted men-at-arms and those knights who were less martial and more geared to navigating court politics and the nobility. In this regard, make it a player choice between Noble Cavalry and Elegant Courtier, combat knights get the former, courtly knights get the latter.

Anyway, just spit-balling ideas here. :smallsmile: