Low level Dragonborn Gish

[Captain Morgan]

Hey folks,

I wrote up a big backstory for a Dragonborn Paladin for the starter adventure. But then my party has changed classes from it's original composition. They are now 2 fighters (probably EK and Battlemaster) and a wizard. A paladin feels a bit redundant, albeit far from useless. I want to stay dragonborn and have some melee prowess but also add some magic and utility. Options are:

1) Stay Pally. Gets me healing, spells, and auras to help teammates on the frontline with me. Downside: little out of combat beyond CHA skills, not a ton of spells.
2) Bladelock. Could maybe do something fun and tricky with a polearm, flame shield, and so on. Downsides: all the drawbacks on the Bladelock, really.
3) Valor Bard. Gets healing spells and skills, and eventually decent armor and weapons. Downside: Less offensive presence.

Since we are starting at level 1, I don't think multiclassing is ideal. Especially if it starts with a level of fighter. 3 fighters at level 1 feels silly, doesn't it? But I could be convinced.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Stats don't match perfectly, but maybe an Arcana Cleric? Pick up Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade from the same book and they make surprisingly good gish.

[gfishfunk]

Dragonborn Strength-y Bard could be fun.

Warlock is actually quite doable, but I would recommend taking the Mage Armor invocation and Fiend pact - I'm not sure if that is too limiting for you at this point. It will be several levels before you can truly play as a Gish though.

[Zanthy1]

Maybe go cleric? Still combat capable, but significantly more spellcasting. Can stay back with the wizard, or stand up with the fighters. Life cleric for lots of heals, or war if you want to be more combative. essentialyl taking a little less combat form the pally, and adding it to spellcasting.

[Ruslan]

A Paladin is not redundant to two fighters. Between the healing powers, the nova powers of Smiting, and Aura of protection, they'll be glad to have you in their party.

[Heather]

I have a Dragonborn Tempest Cleric and she is awesome! I love her to pieces. She's essentially a melee tank with added healing and huge zappy spells (those Tempest domain spells kick arse). I would highly recommend considering this option. She's bronze, of course, for the lightning, and follows Ishkur (a Sumerian god of thunderstorms).

[Captain Morgan]

Hmm, seems like there are a lot of good options. One fighter changed to a Barbarian who will probably be doing a lot of grappling. My current idea is sticking paladin for levels 1 and 2, but then retraining to fighter 1/warlock 2 when I hit level 3, with some fun RP tie ins. I'm really tempted by EB + Repelling Blast, so I can FUS DOH RAH like a true dragonborn. I normally go for invocations like Many Forms, but I think I'd rather keep this guy as a man of action. False life, hex, and Hellish rebuke would probably round out my selections.

However, I could stick paladin until 6. Auras seem really helpful if we are all side by side in melee. And I could go into Warlock from there and skip the blade pact for a sweet ass pet, helping provide utility.

Cleric is also a decent option, but isn't wowing me for whatever reason. Maybe if I can talk my dm into making it Cha based? And I don't want to play the same adventure more than once as a Bard, so that's out.

[Captain Morgan]

Here's a question. The paladin is going build a really solid ass kicker in combat, but how do they do for out of combat utility? Beyond the obvious face skills. Find Steed seems nifty but there's not a lot else that jumps out at me from their spell list and the limited slots vs smites seem like it be very limiting. Then again, I suppose a Bladelock also has to trade off its utility if it wants combat staying power.

Would a cleric fare any better on that front?

[Captain Morgan]

I'm actually starting to come around to the idea of a Paladin/Tomelock or maybe even Chainlock.

-Pally 2 to get Divine smite, spells, and fighting style.
-Warlock 3. Picks up EB, Green Flame Blade, and/or maybe booming blade. Armor of A, and Darkness are all possible.
-Pally 6. Get dat aura.

The idea is you can use the scaling damage on EB, GFB, and/or Booming Blade to make it OK to delay extra attack. While you don't get a lot of spell slots with 2 levels of Paladin, access to their spell list adds some versatility to the Warlock, since heal spells can be cast in Pact slots and such. The recharging slots mean when you really need the damage you can smite.

The lock half is there to provide utility rather than damage. I'm of the opinion that an Imp familiar means you can save an Invocation for the old Devil's Sight/Darkness combo, and I love the flavor and overall usage of an improved familiar. Tome remains a strong option though, especially as this class really likes the extra cantrips. I'm currently thinking Silent Image and Repelling Blast. I know Agonizing Blast might be more ideal but with only 2 invocations for a while I'd rather get a new ability than raw numbers.

Should I instead just do Pally 6 out of the way first? Extra attack is definitely a big deal, and a mount seems like it could be dandy.

[djreynolds]

Why not paladin sorcerer? Start as paladin, wisdom saves are as important as con saves, and Aura of protection will help out.

Grab 6 of paladin, the rest sorcerer. Use cure wounds with any slot. Smite with any slot

[Drackolus]

Palasorc is a solid choice. Also, dm may not allow warlock slots to used for smites. I think that's dumb, but your dm might not. I think there was some ruling to that effect.

[Gastronomie]

Palasorc is a solid choice. Also, dm may not allow warlock slots to used for smites. I think that's dumb, but your dm might not. I think there was some ruling to that effect.Not a ruling, but an errata. Smites can be done using any class's spell slot.

If going Bladelock, dip your first level in Fighter for CON save proficiency and heavy armor, and go the rest in Warlock. Take the Fiendish Vigor and Devil's Sight invocations over the EB buffs. That solves almost all the problems of a Bladelock.

If going Sorcadin/Palasorc/however you want to call it, look at my sig.

[Captain Morgan]

Sorcadin does actually seem like a good way to go, actually. How does that compare to a Warlock out of combat?

Edit: Great guide BTW.

[Tanarii]

3) Valor Bard. Gets healing spells and skills, and eventually decent armor and weapons. Downside: Less offensive presence.The main problem with a Valor Bard is you either build it Dex / Cha and dump Str to 8, effectively wasting the sub-class, especially if you're a Dragon Born. Or you build it as high Str, Dex 14, high Con, and high Cha ... and it's crazy MAD. Even more so than a Pally, which doesn't need Dex and can (and almost always should) put their 8 in it.

Of course, you can build a Str Valor Bard as Cha 12 who doesn't use offensive spells at all, but you did specify a Gish. Or you can leave Con down at 10 or 12, but as a dragonborn you're wasting your primary racial feature ...

Every time I think about a Dragonborn Bard character, I end up discarding the idea because I just can't bring myself to play the Str/Dex14/Con/Cha10 GWM & mostly Divination spells PC I mocked up, and that's only build that seems reasonable.

Edit: Obviously you can also not push up Dex as high as a 14, and accept the lower AC. If you're planning on a Shield Master & Athletics with Expertise build the shield & feat's Dex save effect could be considered to make up for dropping Dex down to (say) a 10.

[Captain Morgan]

The main problem with a Valor Bard is you either build it Dex / Cha and dump Str to 8, effectively wasting the sub-class, especially if you're a Dragon Born. Or you build it as high Str, Dex 14, high Con, and high Cha ... and it's crazy MAD. Even more so than a Pally, which doesn't need Dex and can (and almost always should) put their 8 in it.

Of course, you can build a Str Valor Bard as Cha 12 who doesn't use offensive spells at all, but you did specify a Gish. Or you can leave Con down at 10 or 12, but as a dragonborn you're wasting your primary racial feature ...

Every time I think about a Dragonborn Bard character, I end up discarding the idea because I just can't bring myself to play the Str/Dex14/Con/Cha10 GWM & mostly Divination spells PC I mocked up, and that's only build that seems reasonable.

Edit: Obviously you can also not push up Dex as high as a 14, and accept the lower AC. If you're planning on a Shield Master & Athletics with Expertise build the shield & feat's Dex save effect could be considered to make up for dropping Dex down to (say) a 10.

Yeah, this is all true.

So what would be the recommended progression for a Sorcadin? Pally 2, sorc X? Maybe coming back to Paladin levels if I find we need the saves? What would be the best fighting style if I can't get Warcaster until level 6?

[Tanarii]

Are scag cantrips in play? If so, probably pally 1 or 2 followed by a bunch of sorcerer. You can always double back at higher level and crank pally up to 6 for extra attack and saves.

If you want to be a divine smiter, probably pally 6 then sorcerer. Extra attack to get your crit in faster (and hit, for that matter), save aura, then sorcerer for bonus slots.

(Caveat: this is all theorycrafting on my part I've never played one.)

[Petrocorus]

I'm actually starting to come around to the idea of a Paladin/Tomelock or maybe even Chainlock.

-Pally 2 to get Divine smite, spells, and fighting style.
-Warlock 3. Picks up EB, Green Flame Blade, and/or maybe booming blade. Armor of A, and Darkness are all possible.
-Pally 6. Get dat aura.

If you go Warladin, You'll focus on melee and investing in EB would be a waste, though you'll still want the spell itself, just in case.
You'll probably take Devil's sight and Fiendish vigor as your first Invocation, so you don't need Armor of A. You need your spell slot for Hex and smite anyway. You'll want melee cantrips, and with Tome, you can also have Guidance, Thorn Whip, and some utility cantrips. Ask your DM if you can take cantrips from several spell list.

You can take the Fey patron for the fear/charmed effect, and the teleportation effect. It's also the more compatible with paladin, and Faerie fire is a good spell, Blink maybe too, at least in some situations.

You'll obviously want to try to go melee with the Darkness/ Devil's sight combo on, if the situation don't make it hinder your party.

Except for Shield, Levitate and Haste, the Warlock spells list has all the spells a gish can dream for. I wish the Eldritch Knight had the same spells list. And you add this to the Paladin's spells list.

Note that Booming blade can probably combo with PAM + War Caster. If you have the ASI for it.




The lock half is there to provide utility rather than damage. I'm of the opinion that an Imp familiar means you can save an Invocation for the old Devil's Sight/Darkness combo, and I love the flavor and overall usage of an improved familiar. Tome remains a strong option though, especially as this class really likes the extra cantrips. I'm currently thinking Silent Image and Repelling Blast. I know Agonizing Blast might be more ideal but with only 2 invocations for a while I'd rather get a new ability than raw numbers.


The Warlock side can provide you with Hex, Faerie Fire, Darkness/Devil's Sight combo, Mirror Image, Misty Step, Spider Climb, all of this can be very useful in combat and not only out of combat.

Both Tome and Chain provide good utility, though, IMHO, the Tome cantrips can add versatility in combat. I like Thorn Whip for instance to force these freaking covered ranged attacker to come closer to your Halberd / Great sword.


Another possibility is to go Paladin / Knowledge Bard. The Bard will give you a ton of OoC utility and a lot of spell slot for Smite. The spell list is less gishy than the Warlock's one, but the magical secret can help a bit with that, you wanted to Haste your Pally, here you go.