Fixing Kineticist

[lord pringle]

I keep looking at Kineticist, expecting it to get better, but it feels like a Warlock without the blasting power of Hellfire or the goofy fun of five-fold breath DFA. Does anyone have any simple fixes to make them more palatable? I feel like they're one step away from being my favorite class, but I have no idea what it could possibly be.

[Muggins]

Kineticists can actually reach some comparable damage numbers through the use of hybrid blasts, although that does mean you'll be getting a lot more Burn.

Your best bet to tweaking the class upwards is probably to give their blasts an attack progression at higher levels (a second blast at 10th level and a third at 20th, maybe?) and to make Burn less sucky in general. In fact, I doubt the class would be at all broken if you removed Burn entirely.

[D4rkh0rus]

Like muggins said, kineticist said can reach pretty decent numbers, capping at 20d6+20+ bonuses (such as vital aim and point blank shot) with hybrid blasts, now, these have the downside of being rather limited, until you pull out shenanigans.

There's a feat in the occult book, Interweave composite blast, that allows two characters who both have the feat to ready actions and combine blasts to make a composite one.
One applies one kind of infusion, the other applies the other kind. The main blaster can also gather power and use metakinesis (so empower ftw).

With 4 feats, you can get skill focus, eldritch heritage (for a familiar), improved familiar and interweave comp blast.

The chuspiki (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/chuspiki) is a recent improved familiar that gets a simple air blast, and, as a familiar, it scales with your level.

So, in essence, you can have a means of using composite blasts every round without burn. How's that for viable?

[Kurald Galain]

I keep looking at Kineticist, expecting it to get better, but it feels like a Warlock without the blasting power of Hellfire or the goofy fun of five-fold breath DFA. Does anyone have any simple fixes to make them more palatable? I feel like they're one step away from being my favorite class, but I have no idea what it could possibly be.

The big three problems of the kinny are,

(1) if you have an average of 12 combat rounds per day, then it doesn't matter if you can use your powers 12 times per day or 1200 times. Since any full or partial caster can easily reach that 12, that the kinny can do it 1200 times is not relevant. Note how the warlock's powers are equivalent to similar-level spells whereas the kinny's powers are weaker; this is justified by being usable more often, but that justification doesn't work.

(2) Their utility is sharply limited, first because you can only pick from one or two elements, and second because almost utility power is a weaker version of a lower level spell. A simple solution here is to reduce the level of all utility talents by one, and remove the level limit on the Extra Talent feat.

(3) Their spike damage (i.e. when they're taking burn) is still markedly less than what other damaging classes do (e.g. archer, paladin, rogue, blaster sorc). Without taking burn, they're not even close. This is more complicated to fix; it helps to make the "powerup" move more effective, and to give more burn points, and to allow iteratives on the kinetic blast attacks.

The straightforward fix is to play a Warlock, of course. Warlocks aren't overpowered in the slightest.

[Mithril Leaf]

Have you considered a Spheres of Power Elementalist? Lots of conceptual overlap but doesn't suck.

Failing that, give them iteratives and make burn per encounter.

[Manyasone]

Have you considered a Spheres of Power Elementalist? Lots of conceptual overlap but doesn't suck.

This, and use the destroyers Handbook when you're at it

[Mehangel]

Have you considered a Spheres of Power Elementalist? Lots of conceptual overlap but doesn't suck.

I was just about to recommend the Elementalist (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/elementalist).

[Gnaeus]

The big three problems of the kinny are,

(1) if you have an average of 12 combat rounds per day, then it doesn't matter if you can use your powers 12 times per day or 1200 times. Since any full or partial caster can easily reach that 12, that the kinny can do it 1200 times is not relevant. Note how the warlock's powers are equivalent to similar-level spells whereas the kinny's powers are weaker; this is justified by being usable more often, but that justification doesn't work.

(2) Their utility is sharply limited, first because you can only pick from one or two elements, and second because almost utility power is a weaker version of a lower level spell. A simple solution here is to reduce the level of all utility talents by one, and remove the level limit on the Extra Talent feat.

(3) Their spike damage (i.e. when they're taking burn) is still markedly less than what other damaging classes do (e.g. archer, paladin, rogue, blaster sorc). Without taking burn, they're not even close. This is more complicated to fix; it helps to make the "powerup" move more effective, and to give more burn points, and to allow iteratives on the kinetic blast attacks.

The straightforward fix is to play a Warlock, of course. Warlocks aren't overpowered in the slightest.

Agree. Alternately, if DM prefers 3pp to 3.5, Vizier is a better, simpler at will blaster from DSP.

I would add to problems that Kenny is just badly written and laid out. It reminds me of truenamer in that it is too complicated for what it does, and super easy to gimp yourself in build or in play without meaning to.

I also agree with the poster who said that for the most part just removing burn would not make kineticist OP, with a small handful of exceptions.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I would add to problems that Kenny is just badly written and laid out. It reminds me of truenamer in that it is too complicated for what it does, and super easy to gimp yourself in build or in play without meaning to.
Basically this. It has possibly the worst ratio of rules complexity:actual options I've ever seen in an RPG. It's, like, bad homebrew levels of complexity-for-complexity's-sake.

[Calthropstu]

Someone in our psi game uses a kinetecist. It's pretty badass actually, probably one of the most powerful classes around in terms of raw damage output. A little less utility than I normally like in my characters, but eh...

Right now he's drilling a hole with his ability through 80 feet of rock.

[CockroachTeaParty]

At least give them full BAB and a d10 HD. The gunslinger gets it... :/

[Kurald Galain]

Basically this. It has possibly the worst ratio of rules complexity:actual options I've ever seen in an RPG. It's, like, bad homebrew levels of complexity-for-complexity's-sake.

Yep.

Based on an earlier debate: The Warlock and kinny are really nothing alike aside from the superficial fact that "they have at-will powers". The warlock is elegantly written, very straightforward to build and play, and has powers comparable to equal-level wizard spells that offer strong versatility and pretty good damage (or very good damage if you cheese it up). Comparably, the kinny is overly verbose and confusing, very hard to build due to numerous trap options or things that aren't allowed together, and while it has decent-but-not-great damage, it is laughably weak in terms of everything else. For example, most level-4 kinny powers are the equivalent of level-2 spells.

[digiman619]

Am I the only one who sees the corollaries between the kenny and the 3.5 Soulknife? I mean, both were non-casters in a splatbook all about mental magic (or its equivalent), both were supposed to be the martial of the splat, but were stuck with 3/4th BAB and light armor, both had interesting ideas but horribly executed them (the 3.5 soulknife's mind blade didn't scale properly, the kenny couldn't decide if having a lot of burn is good or bad)...

[Grod_The_Giant]

Am I the only one who sees the corollaries between the kenny and the 3.5 Soulknife? I mean, both were non-casters in a splatbook all about mental magic (or its equivalent), both were supposed to be the martial of the splat, but were stuck with 3/4th BAB and light armor, both had interesting ideas but horribly executed them (the 3.5 soulknife's mind blade didn't scale properly, the kenny couldn't decide if having a lot of burn is good or bad)...
Mmm, maybe. Except the Soulknife just generally suffered from early-3.5-martial-crappiness (upgrade to full BAB and make Psychic Strike a swift action to charge and he's a lot more functional already), while the Kineticist feels like it was written by two different people, neither of whom properly understood the rules the other was making.

[Calthropstu]

At least give them full BAB and a d10 HD. The gunslinger gets it... :/

Actually, I think the gunslinger should get reduced bab rather than upgrade the kinetecist. Going against touch ac is bad enough. I don't think our kinetecist has EVER missed. I also watched him rip apart an encounter with 1 attack.

[Kurald Galain]

Actually, I think the gunslinger should get reduced bab rather than upgrade the kinetecist.

...why? The gunslinger is already one of the weakest classes in the game.

[Calthropstu]

...why? The gunslinger is already one of the weakest classes in the game.

Errrr...

I have to disagree with extreme prejudice. PFS had to greatly nerf the gunslinger because people were instagibbing encounters.

[Gnaeus]

Actually, I think the gunslinger should get reduced bab rather than upgrade the kinetecist. Going against touch ac is bad enough. I don't think our kinetecist has EVER missed. I also watched him rip apart an encounter with 1 attack.

This is like those stories about how some group's monk is consistently the MVP. I don't actually think you are lying, but I really wonder what is going on there. Our kineticist has never missed suggests that he is using energy blasts. I'll further assume a campaign of mostly big slow heavily armored guys with no resist to his attack type. And that through some combination of skill and luck, or ignorance and luck, he either navigated the Kenny maze without self gimping or is misreading some of the rules, either of which is possible. But "rip up an encounter with 1 attack?" Their damage even with composite energy blasts is less than I would expect from a blasting specced sorcerer. With worse damage types. Certainly, there's a lot of variables like optimization level, stats, gear, common foes, party composition, and the kenny's exact build, but I suspect that something unusual is occurring.

[Gnaeus]

Errrr...

I have to disagree with extreme prejudice. PFS had to greatly nerf the gunslinger because people were instagibbing encounters.

PFS starts with a baseline of massively nerfed casters and makes further bad rulings from there. For example, it bans Synthesist, which is actually weaker than regular summoner, because it is stronger than fighter. PFS banning something proves nothing to me.

[Calthropstu]

This is like those stories about how some group's monk is consistently the MVP. I don't actually think you are lying, but I really wonder what is going on there. Our kineticist has never missed suggests that he is using energy blasts. I'll further assume a campaign of mostly big slow heavily armored guys with no resist to his attack type. And that through some combination of skill and luck, or ignorance and luck, he either navigated the Kenny maze without self gimping or is misreading some of the rules, either of which is possible. But "rip up an encounter with 1 attack?" Their damage even with composite energy blasts is less than I would expect from a blasting speccced sorcerer. With worse damage types. Certainly, there's a lot of variables like optimization level, stats, gear, common foes, party composition, and the kenny's exact build, but I suspect that something unusual is occurring.

Actually, he hit a 13th level wizard with 173 points of electrical damage by blowing a huge chunk of burn. I have seen comparable damage output from fighters, magus, and all sorts of other characters but never against touch ac. It was insane.

[Kurald Galain]

PFS had to greatly nerf the gunslinger because people were instagibbing encounters.
I'm not sure when you've last played PFS, but for the last three years at least PFS has no "great nerfs" (or indeed, any nerfs whatsoever) to the gunslinger, other than banning a handful of archetypes. The main argument against gunslingers has never been "zomg overpwoered" but "I don't want guns in my fantasy".


Actually, he hit a 13th level wizard with 173 points of electrical damage by blowing a huge chunk of burn. I have seen comparable damage output from fighters, magus, and all sorts of other characters but never against touch ac. It was insane.
Empowered Scorching Ray and roll a crit, it's not that hard. Or, try Magus with the Accurate Strike arcana, or TWF Rogue with Greater Invis up.

The point is that "it anecdotally did lots of damage once" does not make a strong class. Pretty much every damage-focused class will anecdotally deal lots of damage once in a while.

[Gnaeus]

Actually, he hit a 13th level wizard with 173 points of electrical damage by blowing a huge chunk of burn. I have seen comparable damage output from fighters, magus, and all sorts of other characters but never against touch ac. It was insane.

Well, first, I would expect a 13th level wizard to have at least a quite respectable touch AC. Second, this is clearly a wizard caught with his pants down, because a 13th level wizard can make himself functionally immune to electricity or virtually impossible to hit. Third, this really doesn't answer much, lacking things like party level or opti fu. Fourth, that's not out of line with what I would expect an 11th level orc blooded/draconian sorcerer to do with a heavily metamagiced scorching ray + quickened scorching ray, without hitting themselves for a bunch of damage, with better utility, and without nerfing themselves for the rest of the day.

Well, if I'm gonna be ninjaed, at least I'm ninjaed well...

[Xuldarinar]

Fixing the Kineticist. I can't say much that hasn't been said.

1. Flagellant: Among other things, this feats makes it so you don't pass out from non-lethal damage, instead just being staggered. The kicker is you need to worship ZK (and be 7th level first), but since you are no cleric the 1-step rule doesn't apply. If it makes you feel better, follow Dou-bral as a good character and you are covered.

2. Grant a free bloodline: Odd fix, but bare with me. Allow them to pick a bloodline to be advanced by their Kineticist level, and base abilities from it on Con. Bonus spells be granted at appropreate level as Wild Talents (someone can figure proper burn costs for them. I'd say multiply the level by 2/3 and round down for burn cost, see where it gets you.) Let the arcana apply to wild talents/kinetic blast. Wont work for all, but it is a boost and rolls in some flavor, pointing to the nature of your connection.

[Calthropstu]

12th level kinetecist.

And yeah, sure... a wizard COULD make himself suitably invulnerable to electricity. But how is he supposed to KNOW what to make himself immune to? Actually, he had made himself immune to fire because he let out a maximized 90 damage fireball as his opening attack, nearly wiping our party.

The kinetecist's response was to full out rip him a new one.

And even if he had used his 120 points of energy immunity from protection, that would have left 53 points to eat, and we had 4 more party members to go after that. My character, a psion, was focused on cold, our battle sorcerer/dragon disciple was attuned to cold as well, and our psychic warrior was ready to put the hurt on him too. Each of us (except my psion) made our saves... and I had energy adaptation up. So I ate 60 fire damage (bringing me down to 3) and the rest of our party ate 45 each. None of us were looking good after that.

Our GM originally wanted it to be maximized delayed blast fireball, but we had to inform him such a scroll can't exist in pathfinder because the spell level 10th simply doesn't exist, and the caster level required for such a scroll is infinite. 120 would have floored the entire party, killing my psion outright, and none of us would have been up.

[Gnaeus]

12th level kinetecist.


So, at level 12 he can do less than 180 damage, once/day.
Sorcerer 12. Draconic bloodline. Quicken spell as a bloodline feat. Has a rod of empower spell (minor).
Shoots a maximized scorching ray, empowered by Rod. 12d6 maximized is 72, + 36 for empowered, + 12 for bloodline =120.
Quickened scorching ray is 12d6*3.5=42+12 bloodline =56.

That's 176 damage, with touch attacks, 3x/day. With a 9000gp item. No particular opti-fu. I can beat it pretty significantly with tricks if I want. Without hurting himself. While retaining all the utility of a T1 caster.

But that's a T1. An alchemist with TWF, rapid shot, fast bombs, haste. 24int at level 12. Any of the races that add to damage. 30d6*3.5 =105+65. No burn. 3x/day. Can casually change damage type with discoveries. Gets infusions and mutagens.

Yeah, I'm not super impressed.

[Serafina]

A Kineticist who has Elemental Overflow (so basically everyone) announces their element to the world because it has a "thematic effect" related to their element. And you can't suppress that without suppressing the effects of it.
So yes, it's likely a Wizard can identify their element via some form of Knowledge-check, and just respond with suitable spells.


Honestly, the Kineticist suffered a lot from using unique mechanics - that's always a gamble, because they can potentially just not stack up to what we already have.
But let's not go on about that too much. Instead, let's take a nice role for the Kineticist and just go with that.

Kineticists are elemental manipulators, able to lock down and damage their foes in combat while bypassing obstacles and providing other supernatural utility outside of it.
They can easily be switch hitters, and aredurable as long as their elemental defense is upheld.
(having a daily limit or a lack thereof is not a role, incidentally).
Okay, so what's that got to do with mechanics?

First - Kinetic Blast. We still want that, but let's keep it simple. It now deals damage that works out to 1D6+1/level, as a ranged touch attack. If you want to get fancy and give early-level Kineticists a buff, that could be 1D6/level, +Constitution modifier, +1 every so-many levels to keep it scaling.
Infusions get changed too. We do away with Burn as any sort of main resource - instead, you just get Form Infusions as you level that are applied at no cost, and Substance Infusions are handed out every few levels, and you can apply one with no cost.
Furthermore, Elements become much more universal. Once a day, you can commune with an elemental plane to change your element. As you level, you get options to specialize (for those who want to), or to have multiple elements prepared. Whenever you prepare an element, you also get to pick a physical damage type - which your blast can then also do, to help bypass resistances further (at some cost, maybe just somewhat reduced damage). Archetypes can naturally lock you into an element as well.
Melee doesn't use Kinetic Blast damage progression - instead, it's a normal melee damage progression. You can at-will form a weapon out of your element, which counts as an unarmed strike (and thus can be magically enhanced via items). You get Weapon Finesse for free with that, can add Constitution to damage with it, and let's just have an enhancement (possibly as an elemental specialization) that just lets you transfer that benefit to any weapon you're wielding. You can also learn to get more reach and attacks of opportunity with it.

Okay, that's damage taken care of. Long story short, you get to do about as much damage as a Caster-Blaster, just at-will and with more flexibility, while also having the option to go for melee.
We can actually consider that a bit too strong, certainly, especially if we add more in-combat capabilities. So, let's control this a little:
- certain Form Infusions require you to spend a move-action to activate them, thus reducing your mobility.
- most Substance Infusions take 1 or more point from a limited pool, similar to the Gunslinger. Daily starting points are equal to constitution (giving us 3 to 5), with more added while leveling (say, +1/4 levels). Refill on a saving throw, killing blow strikes me as appropriate, and why not add a flavor-based one such as "encounter significant source of element, at most once per hour" to it (so that you can recharge at a lake if you use water, at a bonfire if you use fire, in a forest if you use wood, during a storm if you use air etc). Possibly, the infusions that do not require charge could be combat maneuver based, and refill a point if they succeed by 10 or more.
There, that should keep things from going out of control entirely.

What about defense? Using your elements to deflect attacks is perfectly appropriate after all. We could just start with an AC-bonus, and give you options for trading that for damage reduction, miss chances or damaging melee attackers. However, this defense should not be constant, and instead be a resource you can expend.

We also wanted battlefield control. Walls, damaging areas, areas of reduced visibility and difficult terrain are all perfectly appropriate for all elements. I'd suggest a standard action to activate it, but at the cost of disabling your elemental defense. You can get an additional area up, but it costs one elemental charge and a standard action to maintain.

Finally, utility - that should be simple.
Movement modes for yourself - everyone gets flight, for example, it just looks different. If you specialize in one element, you can get something related to it - flight for additional people, as well as more speed and maneuverability, earthglide, a swim speed, stuff like that.
Being able to shape your element should be standard, and just get more powerful as you advance in level.
Then we just emulate spells, some at-will, some with either elemental charge cost or just with daily limits. No need to make this too complicated.