What conditions should a primary healer be able to deal with?

[Ssalarn]

Hey all,
I'm working on finishing up the last bits of the new akashic healer class I've been designing for my follow-up release to Akashic Mysteries, and I just wanted to verify that I haven't left any important status effects out of the line-up of conditions that can be addressed. While a couple of these conditions won't be directly addressed in the class chassis, my goal is to have an answer for all of them by the time the final supplement is published. The conditions that I currently have ensured there are ways to address are-

Ability Damage / Drain
Bleed
Blinded/Deafened
Confused
Cursed
Dazed/Staggered/Stunned
Dead
Diseased
Energy Drained
Fatigued/Exhausted
Paralyzed
Petrified
Poisoned
Shaken/Frightened/Panicked
Sickened/Nauseated


Are there any conditions I haven't accounted for that you feel should fall within the capabilites of a primary healer? I want to ensure that Akashic Mysteries is robust enough after this expansion that a single group of akashic characters can deal with an entire adventure without needing to look outside their own system for solutions to commonly encountered problems.

[KillingAScarab]

Are there any conditions I haven't accounted for that you feel should fall within the capabilites of a primary healer? I want to ensure that Akashic Mysteries is robust enough after this expansion that a single group of akashic characters can deal with an entire adventure without needing to look outside their own system for solutions to commonly encountered problems.That sounds great. One of the things which seemed frustrating to me about 3.x psionics was the lack of coverage of removing status conditions. I don't have much Pathfinder experience, but it always struck me as odd that stone to flesh (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/stone-to-flesh) was never made into even a domain spell for a cleric, though the shaman can cast it. I don't know if this is the class which should have the ability to restore a petrified (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Petrified) character, but as long as there's a monster which can cause it, someone in the system should be capable.

[legomaster00156]

I would also consider Stunned's lesser cousins, Dazed and Staggered. These are nasty action-economy-ruining effects. In addition to Shaken and Panicked, also consider Frightened.

[Ssalarn]

That sounds great. One of the things which seemed frustrating to me about 3.x psionics was the lack of coverage of removing status conditions. I don't have much Pathfinder experience, but it always struck me as odd that stone to flesh (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/stone-to-flesh) was never made into even a domain spell for a cleric, though the shaman can cast it. I don't know if this is the class which should have the ability to restore a petrified (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Petrified) character, but as long as there's a monster which can cause it, someone in the system should be capable.

Good call! I'll add petrified to the list and get it addressed.


I would also consider Stunned's lesser cousins, Dazed and Staggered. These are nasty action-economy-ruining effects. In addition to Shaken and Panicked, also consider Frightened.

Noted. I'll add dazed and staggered in alongside stunned and make sure there's some tools for dealing with them.

[stack]

Frightened is missing from the fear conditions, but that's been mentioned. Dazzled is minor but could be on there. You have energy drained, though that seems to only specify negative levels that might become permanent. A way to remove temporary negative levels that can never become permanent is a narrower option that would likely be covered in the text for energy drained anyhow, but forums live in nitpicks.

Yeah, I went through the life sphere and checked all the restore options.

[NomGarret]

Pretty solid list as far as named conditions go. I think in order to stand on its own you need some dispelling ability. How can an Akashic character help someone who has been turned into a toad (by curse or other Polymorph)? How do they help someone who has been magically aged?

[Ssalarn]

Frightened is missing from the fear conditions, but that's been mentioned. Dazzled is minor but could be on there. You have energy drained, though that seems to only specify negative levels that might become permanent. A way to remove temporary negative levels that can never become permanent is a narrower option that would likely be covered in the text for energy drained anyhow, but forums live in nitpicks.

Yeah, I went through the life sphere and checked all the restore options.

Thanks stack :smallsmile:

I added frightened both to the OP and my work notes. I kind of feel like dazzled is such a minor debuff, it's not worth addressing unless I can work it into a larger and more comprehensive ability. Maybe I can tag it in with blinded/deafened? I'll think about it. I'm restructuring a few of the vedist's class abilities to work more as scaling features and less like single condition restoratives (basically, more Life sphere restoration and less Paladin Mercy), so there's got to be some wiggle room in there.


Pretty solid list as far as named conditions go. I think in order to stand on its own you need some dispelling ability. How can an Akashic character help someone who has been turned into a toad (by curse or other Polymorph)? How do they help someone who has been magically aged?

Well, gurus in general can punch non-instantaneous effects off of people from fairly early on, but instantaneous polymorph effects and magical aging are both items I hadn't thought to address. Honestly, they weren't even on my radar, so I really appreciate you calling them out. I did have curses covered though, and I think what I've got is going to be flexible enough to cover most corner cases (though I'll definitely be revisiting it now that you've brought up these other items, just to be sure). Thank you!

[stack]

Putting dazzled in with blinded works for me. Maybe a note in thr same about restoring special senses should they be post? Not sure if there are any ways to lise them outside of the enhancement sphere...

(For those that don't know, when we mention spheres we are talking about the spheres of power casting system from Drop Dead Studios)

[Sayt]

Fascinated?

[Ssalarn]

Fascinated?

I think fascinated tends to be one of those conditions where the cure is baked into the effect. Typically you can shake someone out of fascinated, cover their eyes, throw a rock at whatever is causing the effect, punch them in the face and snap them out of it, etc.

Is there currently a spell or ability that exists specifically to cure fascinated? I'm not aware of one, but if there is I don't mind making sure there's an analogue somewhere, but my understanding is that abilities that cause fascinated have the method of their recovery listed as part of the ability itself. Related to that, is there an example of an ability that fascinates that can't be addressed by attacking either the target or initiator of the ability, or dispelling the effect?

Thank you for the suggestion!

[khadgar567]

mind control spells gonna need some way to fix like aggressive veil to temporary stun the controlled person

[Korahir]

The Protection from X line of spells spring to mind to work around mind control.
Also if healer refers to the guy who keeps his friends able to battle the following conditions are worth considering (if only briefly):
grappled/pinned/swallowed
flatfooted
disarmed
prone
sundered (objects)
entangled
levitated
unconscious (little cousin of death)
asleep
helpless (pretty sure there is spell that uses helpless as a key word and not paralyzed, might be 3.5 though)
entombed (imprisonment spell or ice tomb special ability both countered by freedom spell)
mind controlled /dominated


I am sure I missed some.

[Ssalarn]

mind control spells gonna need some way to fix like aggressive veil to temporary stun the controlled person

Well, there's currently Bangles of the Jealous Seductress (fascinate), Hands of the Bard (fascinate - pattern), Heartsblood Caress (unnatural lust), Lover's Tread (charm person/monster), Mantle of Murderous Intent (stun), Stare of the Ghaele (shaken/stagger), and Vestments of the Maharaja (uber charm) as options for either countering mind control with mind control of your own or locking out an ally so they can't cause more harm. I think dispelling should cover any other corner cases that aren't covered? Let me know if I'm wrong.
Thank you for the input!


The Protection from X line of spells spring to mind to work around mind control.
Also if healer refers to the guy who keeps his friends able to battle the following conditions are worth considering (if only briefly):
grappled/pinned/swallowed
flatfooted
disarmed
prone
sundered (objects)
entangled
levitated
unconscious (little cousin of death)
asleep
helpless (pretty sure there is spell that uses helpless as a key word and not paralyzed, might be 3.5 though)
entombed (imprisonment spell or ice tomb special ability both countered by freedom spell)
mind controlled /dominated

I am sure I missed some.

Okay, I think we've got an answer to most of those, or they provide their own answers inherently... Are there any instances of unconsciousness that aren't covered by hit point healing and don't have their cure built in (like "The target can be awoken X action" included in the effect line?). Helpless is potentially interesting, I'm going to do some digging on the SRD, see if that's something that might need to be addressed. Entombed is also interesting, I think I've got an idea for addressing that with a veil that functions as both the source and a cure. Really good idea to include, especially since daeva, a type of akashic monster, are functionally immortal and an ability like that would simply make sense for the mortal races to develop.

Thank you for your feedback!

[Korahir]

Well, there's currently Bangles of the Jealous Seductress (fascinate), Hands of the Bard (fascinate - pattern), Heartsblood Caress (unnatural lust), Lover's Tread (charm person/monster), Mantle of Murderous Intent (stun), Stare of the Ghaele (shaken/stagger), and Vestments of the Maharaja (uber charm) as options for either countering mind control with mind control of your own or locking out an ally so they can't cause more harm. I think dispelling should cover any other corner cases that aren't covered? Let me know if I'm wrong.
Thank you for the input!



Okay, I think we've got an answer to most of those, or they provide their own answers inherently... Are there any instances of unconsciousness that aren't covered by hit point healing and don't have their cure built in (like "The target can be awoken X action" included in the effect line?). Helpless is potentially interesting, I'm going to do some digging on the SRD, see if that's something that might need to be addressed. Entombed is also interesting, I think I've got an idea for addressing that with a veil that functions as both the source and a cure. Really good idea to include, especially since daeva, a type of akashic monster, are functionally immortal and an ability like that would simply make sense for the mortal races to develop.

Thank you for your feedback!

Unconsciousness came to my mind because of drow poison but that may be covered by the poisoned state.

[KillingAScarab]

Okay, I think we've got an answer to most of those, or they provide their own answers inherently... Are there any instances of unconsciousness that aren't covered by hit point healing and don't have their cure built in (like "The target can be awoken X action" included in the effect line?).

Unconsciousness came to my mind because of drow poison but that may be covered by the poisoned state.
Color spray (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/color-spray) causes unconsciousness. I realized in another thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?505539-Elementals-Mind-affecting-spells-and-color-spray) that it might work on a small elemental.

[Ssalarn]

Color spray (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/color-spray) causes unconsciousness. I realized in another thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?505539-Elementals-Mind-affecting-spells-and-color-spray) that it might work on a small elemental.

That is interesting. And the unconscious condition only accounts for negative hp or nonlethal damage in excess of current total hp. Do clerics or oracles have a way to address this condition, or is it simply something the core game expects you to ride out? I'm thinking the latter, given how narrow and specific the ability to inflict the condition is.

[Zanos]

A lot of magical effects don't impose specification conditions, but come with an array of penalties. I think a dedicated healer should be able to dispel magic in general for situations where specific curatives aren't helpful.

[Ssalarn]

A lot of magical effects don't impose specification conditions, but come with an array of penalties. I think a dedicated healer should be able to dispel magic in general for situations where specific curatives aren't helpful.

Yeah, general dispelling is going to be well covered, I'm currently just looking to make sure that the specific conditions that require a particular counter are covered. Instantaneous effects that impose a particular condition are particularly relevant, because a character can't be expected to (for example) just be blind forever, so I want to make sure all of those are specifically addressed. Weird items that aren't necessarily covered in existing options (like the unconscious condition imposed by color spray) are also worth noting, though my focus is more on making sure that you don't have to look outside of Akashic Mysteries to grab existing solutions than it is to create solutions that don't already exist. Which isn't to say I don't want to include new and innovative design, I just don't currently think it's necessary for an akashic healer to be able to heal things a cleric or druid can't (though I'm open to persuasion).

Thank you for weighing in!

[Mithril Leaf]

I think that when all else fails, one should be able to strip down a character and have the healer hose all the magic off them. Maybe not quite disjunction levels of stripping spells, but something of that nature. A catch all buff and debuff removal. Have permanent class abilities come back after X amount of time.

[GilesTheCleric]

Have you considered the ability to cure uncurable damage? I don't know what exists in PF, but in 3.5 there's eg. vile damage, which cannot be healed except within a Consecrated or Hallowed area (BoVD 34). There's also desiccation damage, which if it dehydrates a target can only be healed after the target has been treated for the dehydration, ie with water (or a Hydration spell) (Ss 15).

[khadgar567]

I think that when all else fails, one should be able to strip down a character and have the healer hose all the magic off them. Maybe not quite disjunction levels of stripping spells, but something of that nature. A catch all buff and debuff removal. Have permanent class abilities come back after X amount of time.
good idea.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Have you considered the ability to cure uncurable damage? I don't know what exists in PF, but in 3.5 there's eg. vile damage, which cannot be healed except within a Consecrated or Hallowed area (BoVD 34). There's also desiccation damage, which if it dehydrates a target can only be healed after the target has been treated for the dehydration, ie with water (or a Hydration spell) (Ss 15).

Most 'lingering wounds' things require a caster level check, and the environmental damage is usually treated with a Heal roll.

[Castilonium]

Hi Ssalarn, you're awesome :smallsmile:

A lot of PoW maneuvers have undispellable untyped debuffs, like having a penalty to d20 rolls (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/veiled-moon-maneuvers#TOC-Cursed-Fate) or taking +1d6 damage when you get hit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/sleeping-goddess-maneuvers#TOC-Harmony-shattering-Strike). Some inflict status effects that aren't necessarily bad, like incorporeal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/pow-e-feats/veiled-moon-style). Will this class be able to reverse those effects?

Will the class have any preventative abilities to help allies, or will they all be reactive? Some nasty effects are instantaneous and don't have a lasting effect in the same way polymorph any object does, like being forcefully teleported (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/cursed-razor-maneuvers#TOC-Warlock-s-Blow). Some abilities can steal your buffs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/shattered-mirror-maneuvers#TOC-Carnival-Swap).

[Ssalarn]

Hi Ssalarn, you're awesome :smallsmile:


Thanks :smallbiggrin:



A lot of PoW maneuvers have undispellable untyped debuffs, like having a penalty to d20 rolls (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/veiled-moon-maneuvers#TOC-Cursed-Fate) or taking +1d6 damage when you get hit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/sleeping-goddess-maneuvers#TOC-Harmony-shattering-Strike). Some inflict status effects that aren't necessarily bad, like incorporeal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/pow-e-feats/veiled-moon-style). Will this class be able to reverse those effects?

So, that was something I really started thinking about in regards to Mithril Leaf's "hose off the penalties" comment. The issue with undispellable, untyped debuffs is that if I'm going to create a counter to them, I have to be able to define them. I'm not sure how familiar you are with 3.5's Tome of Battle, but there was that maneuver Iron Heart Surge (I think) that was written to be that kind of counter and was unfortunately vague enough that it led to people arguing that you could use it to flex out the sun (or something along those lines). That being said, I just pulled ToB off my shelf to take a look at Iron Heart Surge, and now I'm thinking that I may be able to create a similar ability that's able to deal with undefined penalties that's more tightly worded and functional, so..... Yeah, I think this is a request I can fulfill, even though it wasn't something I'd had prior plans to address.



Will the class have any preventative abilities to help allies, or will they all be reactive? Some nasty effects are instantaneous and don't have a lasting effect in the same way polymorph any object does, like being forcefully teleported (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/cursed-razor-maneuvers#TOC-Warlock-s-Blow). Some abilities can steal your buffs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/shattered-mirror-maneuvers#TOC-Carnival-Swap).

So, the class will be up for open playtest soon (my plan had actually been Wednesday, but then a flash of inspiration and some local alpha playtest feedback on how to do something much more simply and efficiently led to me burning two major class features to the ground and reworking them from the ground up, which I'm still finishing), but the basic premise is this:

You've got a caster chassis (1/2 BAB, d6), with three good saves and vizier essence progression. The class uses WIS as its primary veilweaving modifier and can use WIS in place of CON when determining bonus hit points and Fortitude saving throws (I'm honestly still considering just making CON its primary veilweaving modifier, but I'm not sure how I feel about that thematically). In addition to having full veilweaving progression with a bunch of new veils, the class has an ability called Akashic Bonds that can be used to invest essence into its allies (kind of like a daevic's passion- you invest essence into the bond to determine its effects and the number of allies affected). As long as an ally is included in your akashic bond, you can spend actions (specific action determined by exactly what you want to do) to freely share your own hit points with wounded allies, and draw their conditions onto yourself, gaining a new save against the effect in the process, with a bonus on the save equal to the amount of essence invested in that ally. Starting at 2nd level, you gain Vivifications, selectable class features that provide scaling bonuses to allies other than the vedist based on the amount of essence invested into the akashic bond; for example, there's a Poison Resistance vivification that grants allies increasing bonuses to poison saving throws scaling up to poison immunity, and a higher level vivification that actually gives them scaling blindsense for when their other senses are blocked out. The vedist itself gains a separate set of personal buff class features called Martyr's Renewals; Martyr's Renewals are reactive buffs that kick in whenever the vedist draws a particular type of negative condition out of an ally and onto themselves. Most martyr's renewals activate regardless of whether or not the vedist succeeds on the save against the transferred condition; so a vedist with the Plague-eater renewal who draws a disease out of an ally and onto themselves takes half damage from any attack capable of spreading a disease (such as a mummy's slams or a ghoul's natural attacks), and can sicken opponents with a touch.

All of that leading to the actual answer to your question, which is- Yes, they will have both preventative and reactive abilities, and while I currently don't have anything that addresses the two items you mentioned specifically, I think proactive counters to buff-stealing and forced teleportation are both great ideas and I'll see where I can work them in.

Thanks so much for your input!

[khadgar567]

Thanks :smallbiggrin:



So, that was something I really started thinking about in regards to Mithril Leaf's "hose off the penalties" comment. The issue with undispellable, untyped debuffs is that if I'm going to create a counter to them, I have to be able to define them. I'm not sure how familiar you are with 3.5's Tome of Battle, but there was that maneuver Iron Heart Surge (I think) that was written to be that kind of counter and was unfortunately vague enough that it led to people arguing that you could use it to flex out the sun (or something along those lines). That being said, I just pulled ToB off my shelf to take a look at Iron Heart Surge, and now I'm thinking that I may be able to create a similar ability that's able to deal with undefined penalties that's more tightly worded and functional, so..... Yeah, I think this is a request I can fulfill, even though it wasn't something I'd had prior plans to address.



So, the class will be up for open playtest soon (my plan had actually been Wednesday, but then a flash of inspiration and some local alpha playtest feedback on how to do something much more simply and efficiently led to me burning two major class features to the ground and reworking them from the ground up, which I'm still finishing), but the basic premise is this:

You've got a caster chassis (1/2 BAB, d6), with three good saves and vizier essence progression. The class uses WIS as its primary veilweaving modifier and can use WIS in place of CON when determining bonus hit points and Fortitude saving throws (I'm honestly still considering just making CON its primary veilweaving modifier, but I'm not sure how I feel about that thematically). In addition to having full veilweaving progression with a bunch of new veils, the class has an ability called Akashic Bonds that can be used to invest essence into its allies (kind of like a daevic's passion- you invest essence into the bond to determine its effects and the number of allies affected). As long as an ally is included in your akashic bond, you can spend actions (specific action determined by exactly what you want to do) to freely share your own hit points with wounded allies, and draw their conditions onto yourself, gaining a new save against the effect in the process, with a bonus on the save equal to the amount of essence invested in that ally. Starting at 2nd level, you gain Vivifications, selectable class features that provide scaling bonuses to allies other than the vedist based on the amount of essence invested into the akashic bond; for example, there's a Poison Resistance vivification that grants allies increasing bonuses to poison saving throws scaling up to poison immunity, and a higher level vivification that actually gives them scaling blindsense for when their other senses are blocked out. The vedist itself gains a separate set of personal buff class features called Martyr's Renewals; Martyr's Renewals are reactive buffs that kick in whenever the vedist draws a particular type of negative condition out of an ally and onto themselves. Most martyr's renewals activate regardless of whether or not the vedist succeeds on the save against the transferred condition; so a vedist with the Plague-eater renewal who draws a disease out of an ally and onto themselves takes half damage from any attack capable of spreading a disease (such as a mummy's slams or a ghoul's natural attacks), and can sicken opponents with a touch.

All of that leading to the actual answer to your question, which is- Yes, they will have both preventative and reactive abilities, and while I currently don't have anything that addresses the two items you mentioned specifically, I think proactive counters to buff-stealing and forced teleportation are both great ideas and I'll see where I can work them in.

Thanks so much for your input!
first take real careful aproach for shape veil and iron heart surge veil i smell trouble for that veil
and did you say vedist can absorb and cure lycantropy

[John Longarrow]

Insanity?
Atonement?

Both can pop up as really useful at times.

[khadgar567]

Insanity?
Atonement?

Both can pop up as really useful at times.
insanity has no problems besides roll will save to keep in control.

[TheFamilarRaven]

insanity has no problems besides roll will save to keep in control.

Except that it's permanent, and has some specific spells as cures. So it's worth mentioning so that this new healer has a way to deal with permanent confusion effects.

[khadgar567]

Except that it's permanent, and has some specific spells as cures. So it's worth mentioning so that this new healer has a way to deal with permanent confusion effects.
if you ask me i gladly roll insane sorcrer then try to handle my parties bickering.

[Zanos]

Insanity leaves an afflicted character with a 10% chance to act normally each round, so I'm pretty sure it qualifies. I think you're looking at something else.

[khadgar567]

Insanity leaves an afflicted character with a 10% chance to act normally each round, so I'm pretty sure it qualifies. I think you're looking at something else.
its their work not mine.

[TiaC]

Break Enchantment, for all the undispellable effects.

[Pugwampy]

Well your main problem is , you cannot cover everything at once , no point in making any list or filling slots full of useless spell . If you have a basic idea of what you are up against that might help .

Whats your Dm,s fave playing style ? Does he have a favorite status condition that he has used more then once ?
Does he have a favorite monster that puts a status condition on your party ?

[Zanos]

Well your main problem is , you cannot cover everything at once , no point in making any list or filling slots full of useless spell . If you have a basic idea of what you are up against that might help .

Whats your Dm,s fave playing style ? Does he have a favorite status condition that he has used more then once ?
Does he have a favorite monster that puts a status condition on your party ?
OP is designing a class, not making a character.

[Ssalarn]

Break Enchantment, for all the undispellable effects.

I'll double check to ensure the spread between dispel and break enchantment is suitably covered.
Thanks for the reminder!



and did you say vedist can absorb and cure lycantropy

As long as it's contracted and not inherited, yes, though the vedist runs the risk of contracting the disease themselves.

[NomGarret]

You've got a caster chassis (1/2 BAB, d6), with three good saves and vizier essence progression. The class uses WIS as its primary veilweaving modifier and can use WIS in place of CON when determining bonus hit points and Fortitude saving throws (I'm honestly still considering just making CON its primary veilweaving modifier, but I'm not sure how I feel about that thematically).

So first off, let me say that I'm awaiting this playtest as eagerly as I await my Akashic Mysteries hardcopy. (It's in the mail.) As to the stat spread, my gut reaction is to go with CON as the veilweaving modifier, as WIS remains useful for Will saves and more, and more important, skills. Beyond that, what races would you like to see be natural fits? Elves want it to be WIS-based. Dwarves want CON-based. How scary would a CON-based Solhafaat Vedist be?

[soulsabre345]

I'm also very interested indeed in this playtest. I may just grab it and play with it in a high-level campaign here when it drops. My question is, is the vedist going to have anywhere near the raw healing throughput of say the vitalist, or are they going to be more focused on the preventive healing, or debuff removal? And can a vedist establish a link to a opponent, and throw debuffs on them, or steal hp from them?

[Ssalarn]

I'm also very interested indeed in this playtest. I may just grab it and play with it in a high-level campaign here when it drops. My question is, is the vedist going to have anywhere near the raw healing throughput of say the vitalist, or are they going to be more focused on the preventive healing, or debuff removal? And can a vedist establish a link to a opponent, and throw debuffs on them, or steal hp from them?

Vedist has slightly less raw hit point recovery ability, focused more on preventative measures and debuff removal, but it's not a slouch in the healing department either. The vedist will have some options for pushing debuffs onto enemies instead of taking them on itself. The plan is to have it up and available as soon as Spheres of Combat is far enough along in its Kickstarter and associated playtest that I have enough time to regularly respond to feedback on the vedist.