Best way to Arcane Trickster? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Ninja_Prawn

2016-12-07, 02:28 AM

I love arcane tricksters. They're loads of fun and really flexible.

1. At low levels, your selection is pretty limited. Invisibility, Silent Image are no-brainers, Sleep is good at low levels but will be starting to fade by level 5. Hold Person, Suggestion are great spells if you've got the Int for them, which this character should have. One of Blur/Mirror Image might be worth picking up. For your free picks, Find Familiar, Fog Cloud are the most tempting to me.

2. I don't know about must-have. War Caster could be handy, Ritual Caster or Magic Initiate give you more magic, Observant, Skilled or Keen Mind are options to boost your exploration utility. Sharpshooter if you're an archer?

3. With two 17s rolled and the high elf race, your comrade can start with 19 and 18 in Dex and Int. Dex is so utterly central to every rogue that it's hard to argue against maxing that at level 4. After that, it's up to you.

4. Sneak Attack for consistent single-target damage. As an elf, I'd focus on longbow sniping, which means you probably won't need to use Cunning Action for mobility as much as melee rogues. So use it for Mage Hand! Your DM might let you use it to Help others at range, but if not, you can poison arrows as a bonus action, pick locks at range, mess with your enemies, all sorts of shenanigans.

5. See above. Illusion spells reward creativity, and your Mage Hand is massively improved over the standard version.

6. Flight would be nice. With Invisibility, Stealth expertise and flight, an arcane trickster is as good an infiltrator as anyone.
Pick up a damage spell if you can, as all your weapon damage will be piercing and a lot of things resist that, so having an alternative can't hurt.

famousringo

2016-12-07, 03:35 AM

The sneaky arthropod covered most of it, but it's also worth mentioning that Booming Blade is pretty neat for Arcane Tricksters. Not only can it add a few d8s to your sneak attack, but a Cunning Action Disengage afterward can leave a foe standing around with nobody to attack unless he wants to take more damage.

For feats, I'd favour Warcaster and wouldn't recommend Sharpshooter, not for the -5/+10 benefit, anyway. The hit penalty is effectively a negative multiplier on all that Sneak Attack bonus damage. You want to land that Sneak Attack reliably. If you want to rogue at range, Crossbow Expert should be taken before Sharpshooter.

Digimike

2016-12-07, 07:20 AM

The Mobile feat can keep that bonus action handy in your back pocket.

Specter

2016-12-07, 07:43 AM

1) For cantrips, definitely pick Booming Blade, even if going the bow way. It synergizes perfectly with the rogue features. As for spells, it depends, but good level 5 bets are Charm Person, Silent Image and Find Familiar.
2) Nope. Good options are Lucky, Alert and War Caster (if you want to dual-wield).
3) With stats so high, just max DEX and then go whatever route you want.
4) An arcane trickster shouldn't act as a caster, but as an opportunist. What does that mean? It means, only cast a spell under the most beneficial circumstances. If you can get your target in a suggestion to benefit the whole team, for instance, definitely do so, but if not sneak and disengage. If they get close, uncanny dodge, booming blade, rinse and repeat.

I may write a guide on these guys soon.

MinotaurWarrior

2016-12-07, 09:29 AM

1)What are the go to spells to pick up?

You want to have Find Familiar at some point, cast it, and forget it next level up. Similarly, you probably want sleep at level 3, and then to forget it soon afterwards.

By level 9, you'll want to pick up Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Invisibility, Suggestion, and Hold Person.

With 14 strength, Expertise: Athletics and Enhance Ability wouldn't be a slam dunk, but they'd be grappling as well as a barbarian to start.

A lot of what you want from 3rd level spells are just what everyone else wants. At level 13 you can take hypnotic pattern, and then upshift your 8th level spell to flying / haste. Get the other one at 14.

2)are there any must have feats?

Sharpshooter, as always.

3)What do you think the ability score increases/feats should look like?

Racial: +1 Int, +1 Dex
Level 4: Sharpshooter
Level 8: +2 Dex
Level 10: + 2 Int
12, 16, 19: Warcaster, Skulker, and Lucky would be my top three picks, in any order.

4) What is an arcane trickster niche in combat?

You're an especially sneaky rogue who has something else going on. That's basically it. Your ideal combat is one where there's a big dumb guy like a cyclops quarreling with his hobgoblin handlers, you sneak up, get suggestion off, and then shoot the hobgoblins the cyclops doesn't smash.

5)what are some useful tricks/uses for the arcane trickers abilities?

It's easy to hide outside of combat. Be a weirdo who goes for the drapes when in the throne room.

You can go invisible and then be an absolute jerk with mage hand. Especially after level 11, you're guaranteed a 23 on sleight of hand checks, so there are a fair number of enemies you can 'ready for combat' to your hearts content. E.g. you can just steal an Erinyes' weapons before combat begins.

6)any useful advice / ideas you may be willing to offer.

Get creative! Encourage creativity!

Finieous

2016-12-07, 09:47 AM

Sharpshooter, as always.

This really surprises me and I'd like to see the math. With one attack and sneak attack increasing your damage on a hit, I can't imagine -5/+10 being efficient across a particularly broad range of ACs. As a rule of thumb, SS is best with multiple low-damage attacks (e.g. Crossbow Expert fighters with hand crossbows).

Anyway, melee will offer the best damage output (if that's your thing), and my "must-haves" are booming blade, find familiar (owl), and shield if you have room for Magic Initiate. With booming blade, Cunning Action, Uncanny Dodge and shield, you'll have a variety of defensive tools in the toolbox to make melee survivable.

Specter

2016-12-07, 10:10 AM

rooneg

2016-12-07, 10:23 AM

You want to have Find Familiar at some point, cast it, and forget it next level up.

Your DM never tries to kill your Familiar? Maybe if you're just never using it to help in combat for advantage I guess...

MinotaurWarrior

2016-12-07, 10:42 AM

This really surprises me and I'd like to see the math. With one attack and sneak attack increasing your damage on a hit, I can't imagine -5/+10 being efficient across a particularly broad range of ACs. As a rule of thumb, SS is best with multiple low-damage attacks (e.g. Crossbow Expert fighters with hand crossbows).

Anyway, melee will offer the best damage output (if that's your thing), and my "must-haves" are booming blade, find familiar (owl), and shield if you have room for Magic Initiate. With booming blade, Cunning Action, Uncanny Dodge and shield, you'll have a variety of defensive tools in the toolbox to make melee survivable.

1) ATs get reliable advantage from their hand at level 13
2) ATs get the most context-independent hiding justification from level 3 on
3) Low AC monsters exist
4) Shooting from very far away and ignoring cover is always nice.

I'm level 4 against a CR 4 AC 14 Gnoll Fang. I cast silent image before combat, giving myself a hiding justification. I have +6 to hit w/o Sharpshooter. 1d6 Shortbow + 2d6 sneak attack + 4 ASM = 14.5 Damage. With advantage, without -5/+10, I hit ~88% of the time. With -5/+10, I hit 64% of the time. That's a 14% accuracy loss, but I gain about 68% damage. The expected output is 12.76 vs 15.68. Then I can bonus action hide and repeat. Since I can do this from long range, I also can be as much as 320ft away (compared to 80ft previously) meaning that I have four extra turns before the Fang gets within melee range.

As you go up in level, +10 represents less and less of a % of your damage, so you need better and better %'s to hit before you'll take the -5, but the range and cover is always helpful.

Your DM never tries to kill your Familiar? Maybe if you're just never using it to help in combat for advantage I guess...

ATs don't need that nearly as much as anyone else, since they have the invisible hand. And if that happpens, you can get it back next level. Your familiar is gonna get treated like Blackwing, popping in and out of the pocket dimension to use senses or do a trick.

Finieous

2016-12-07, 11:03 AM

1) ATs get free advantage from their hand at level 13
2) ATs get the most context-independent hiding justification from level 3 on
3) Low AC monsters exist
4) Shooting from very far away and ignoring cover is always nice.

I'm level 4 against a CR 4 AC 14 Gnoll Fang. I cast silent image before combat, giving myself a hiding justification. I have +6 to hit w/o Sharpshooter. 1d6 Shortbow + 2d6 sneak attack + 4 ASM = 14.5 Damage. With advantage, without -5/+10, I hit ~88% of the time. With -5/+10, I hit 64% of the time. That's a 14% accuracy loss, but I gain about 68% damage. The expected output is 12.76 vs 15.68. Then I can bonus action hide and repeat. Since I can do this from long range, I also can be as much as 320ft away (compared to 80ft previously) meaning that I have four extra turns before the Fang gets within melee range.

As you go up in level, +10 represents less and less of a % of your damage, so you need better and better %'s to hit before you'll take the -5, but the range and cover is always helpful.

Yeah, against that AC 14 target, you're about +2 damage at 5th level, +1 damage at 7th level, +0.5 damage at 9th level, and underwater thereafter. Obviously, your benefit is even smaller (or negative) against targets with greater than AC 14. With a baseline 60% hit rate and advantage, I think you're about breakeven at 7th level and underwater thereafter.

The 4th-level AT with a rapier will do 14.7 damage, or 19.2 if the target pursues after Cunning Action disengage, against your 15.68. He'll be doing more damage even without movement from 5th level on. And he didn't spend an ASI on it.

(Another way to look at it: spending that 4th level ASI on +2 Dex instead of SS, he's doing 16.1 damage with the rapier and 20.6 if the target moves. So he's already out-damaging the Sharpshooter at 4th level.)

I can see going ranged and Sharpshooter if the campaign suits it: basically, lots of very long-range fights in well-lit areas. Otherwise, I feel you're better off saving your ASI and playing to the AT's strengths.

Specter

2016-12-07, 11:18 AM

1) ATs get reliable advantage from their hand at level 13
2) ATs get the most context-independent hiding justification from level 3 on
3) Low AC monsters exist
4) Shooting from very far away and ignoring cover is always nice.

I'm level 4 against a CR 4 AC 14 Gnoll Fang. I cast silent image before combat, giving myself a hiding justification. I have +6 to hit w/o Sharpshooter. 1d6 Shortbow + 2d6 sneak attack + 4 ASM = 14.5 Damage. With advantage, without -5/+10, I hit ~88% of the time. With -5/+10, I hit 64% of the time. That's a 14% accuracy loss, but I gain about 68% damage. The expected output is 12.76 vs 15.68. Then I can bonus action hide and repeat. Since I can do this from long range, I also can be as much as 320ft away (compared to 80ft previously) meaning that I have four extra turns before the Fang gets within melee range.

As you go up in level, +10 represents less and less of a % of your damage, so you need better and better %'s to hit before you'll take the -5, but the range and cover is always helpful.

ATs don't need that nearly as much as anyone else, since they have the invisible hand. And if that happpens, you can get it back next level. Your familiar is gonna get treated like Blackwing, popping in and out of the pocket dimension to use senses or do a trick.

The good part of Sharpshooter is indeed ignoring cover and distance, but the damage tradeoff will be bad several times. Why?
1) Rogues don't have the Archery fighting style to facilitate hitting like Fighters and Rangers;
2) If you miss with the one attack you have, that's zero damage for your turn. All the bazillion Sneak Attack die lost in the wind.

So if you're at level 5, for instance, trying to hit a dude with 15AC, you'll need a 9 or higher (16DEX + proficiency). With the -5, you'll need a solid 14, something that's easy to miss normally and still very missable with advantage. The hit that would normally deal 17 average with a shortbow now deals 27, but if you miss, you deal 0. Now picture missing 10d6 sneak at level 19. Too rough.

MinotaurWarrior

2016-12-07, 11:22 AM

Yeah, against that AC 14 target, you're about +2 damage at 5th level, +1 damage at 7th level, +0.5 damage at 9th level, and underwater thereafter. Obviously, your benefit is even smaller (or negative) against targets with greater than AC 14. With a baseline 60% hit rate and advantage, I think you're about breakeven at 7th level and underwater thereafter.

The 4th-level AT with a rapier will do 14.7 damage, or 19.2 if the target pursues after Cunning Action disengage, against your 15.68. He'll be doing more damage even without movement from 5th level on. And he didn't spend an ASI on it.

(Another way to look at it: spending that 4th level ASI on +2 Dex instead of SS, he's doing 16.1 damage with the rapier and 20.6 if the target moves. So he's already out-damaging the Sharpshooter at 4th level.)

I can see going ranged and Sharpshooter if the campaign suits it: basically, lots of very long-range fights in well-lit areas. Otherwise, I feel you're better off saving your ASI and playing to the AT's strengths.

I'd never go melee as an AT, because that exposes you to more attacks, and more chances that you break concentration on something like suggestion that was swinging the fight.

Also, the player rolled two 17's, so there's not much to save. Plus, honestly, if the DM isn't going to allow for a lot of PC agency in setting up fights, the AT isn't a very appropriate anyway.

90sMusic

2016-12-07, 11:55 AM

Whenever I play an arcane trickster, I usually try to put a succubus-ish spin on it. I pick my proficiency and expertise in persuasion and deception, get high charisma and be the party face. Then use a lot of charm person, suggestion, things like that. You can usually get a DM to allow you to change your spell DC to be charisma based instead of intelligence based if you can make a good argument for it based on the nature of the character. Tiefling of course would be the race, since it's the closest thing to a fiend.

Nothing like being sociable and deceptive and alluring, then when a fight breaks out slip into the shadows and start slitting throats. And sneaking around, picking locks, and high social skills are all very useful for infiltration. You have enough spells to get your charmy/manipulative picks as well as defensive ones that keep you alive. And at a certain level, you can get advantage on every attack.

That's just how I do it, your mileage and playstyle may vary, but I always find this kind of character to be a fun one.

I tend to use a short bow mostly to be safe but keep short swords and daggers on me in case I need to fight up close.

If I roll well on ability scores, I usually grab sharpshooter after I max out my dexterity.

JellyPooga

2016-12-07, 11:56 AM

I'd never go melee as an AT, because that exposes you to more attacks, and more chances that you break concentration on something like suggestion that was swinging the fight.

AT's are the best melee Rogues.

Take your pick of Blur, Mirror Image, Shield, Prot vs. E/G, (Greater) Invisibility and more...combine with high Dex and you're often looking at AC 20+ with opponents rolling at Disadvantage. Add solid damage output from BB/GFB+Sneak Attack and off-turn Sneak Attack OA's, plus the option of being able to control the battlefield to your advantage with the likes of Cloud of Daggers, Fog Cloud, etc...AT's can mix it up in a stand up fight like a boss. Hell, work your way into the midst of a mook-squad and drop Fireball on yourself; Evasion to the rescue and you're looking at a lot of dead mooks and you unscathed. Just because you're in melee, doesn't mean you have to make melee attacks...

Finieous

2016-12-07, 12:30 PM

I'd never go melee as an AT, because that exposes you to more attacks, and more chances that you break concentration on something like suggestion that was swinging the fight.

I noted that you'd go melee if damage is your thing. That said, with booming blade and Cunning Action, I'm not really planning to spend much time "in melee" even though I'm making melee attacks. With shield, Uncanny Dodge, and Evasion, however, I am perfectly capable of dealing with attacks (ranged, melee, or spell) when necessary. With my 1/3 spell slots, I'm probably not casting a lot of suggestion spells in combat -- there are bards and wizards for that. I might cast the spell to avoid combat or get what I want without resorting to combat, but then it's irrelevant whether I'm predominantly melee or ranged in combat.

Also, the player rolled two 17's, so there's not much to save. Plus, honestly, if the DM isn't going to allow for a lot of PC agency in setting up fights, the AT isn't a very appropriate anyway.

I don't see it as a "player agency" issue. I just don't think there's often much benefit in being able to shoot a target 320 feet away when you're in a thirty-by-thirty room or can only see sixty feet. Still, there may be campaigns where SS is a great choice, even when sneak attack damage will obsolete the -5/+10 feature fairly quickly.

Saggo

2016-12-07, 01:31 PM

1) ATs get reliable advantage from their hand at level 13

ATs don't need that nearly as much as anyone else, since they have the invisible hand. And if that happpens, you can get it back next level. Your familiar is gonna get treated like Blackwing, popping in and out of the pocket dimension to use senses or do a trick.
That's 12 levels of needing Familiar Advantage the same amount as everyone else, 9 levels of time where you have Find Familiar but not Versatile Trickster, a significant amount of time. Waiting a level to relearn Find Familiar isn't insignificant either.

Versatile Trickster also takes your bonus action. Reliable of course, but it prevents Cunning Action whereas an owl familiar wouldn't. There's a very strong case for keeping Find Familiar as a spell, and I'd rather have both sources of advantage.

Waazraath

2016-12-07, 02:12 PM

Hey folks,

One of my fellow players died and is rejoining as an arcane trickster. She thought it sounds fun and all, but we realized that we really haven't looked into this archetype nearly as much as others. She was previously our party infiltrator as a shadow Monk.

She is a level 5 half elf rogue. We are choosing not to multiclass at our table.
17, 17, 14, 13, 13, 11 as rolled base stats.

We see that there are a lot of magehand type class abilities and some limited spell options.

Here are our main questions/concerns:

1)What are the go to spells to pick up?
2)are there any must have feats?
3)What do you think the ability score increases/feats should look like?
4) What is an arcane trickster niche in combat?
5)what are some useful tricks/uses for the arcane trickers abilities?
6)any useful advice / ideas you may be willing to offer.

Thank you in advance, your superior experience and booksmarts never fail to impress giantitp!

-dove

Some general stuff (some already mentioned):
- make sure you get a reaction attack (with feats or multiclassing); doing 2 times sneak attack damage is a huge increase in DPR
- same vor the SCAG cantrips, booming blade and greenflame blade. Booming is at first sight more logical, if you make a hit & run attacks, but you can choose to go all out melee
- find familiar is great anyway, an owl that can relatively safely and often advantage on your attack is even greater

If you need a new infiltrator, the skills, expertise, high dex, and spells like invisibility should more than do the trick, maybe use a few of your spell picks that don't need to be charm/illusion to get spider climb, levitate, misty step or fly, if needed.

Though the hit & run fighter is the most obvious, personally I'd love to try out a full melee / tank build with arcane trickster. With the few extra asi's you get, it's not a problem to get a high (or even maxed out) con. Rogue has decent defensive class options, like uncanny dodge. And with (at least) 1 level of fighter dip, you can go full plate / shield, and wield a rapier using str instead of dex, and have a very good AC. Especially if you devote a few of your spell options on defensive spells like mirror image and greater invisibility, I think it should work.

Examples:
- Variant human rogue 20 build, mage slayer, sentinel and lucky for feats, dex 20, con 18, spell list including find familiar, disguise self (infiltration), mirror image, misty step, invisibility, fear and fly.
- Hill dwarf fighter 1 / rogue 5 / fighter +5 / rogue +9; maneuvers: in any case reposte; feats: shield master, tough, max dex & con; huge amount of hp, good defensive features (incl spells), and strong offensive features (shield bash, 2 attacks or SCAG cantrip, 7d6 sneak attack, reaction attacks, maneuvers, action surge)

Spookykid

2016-12-07, 04:03 PM

Yagyujubei

2016-12-07, 04:11 PM

Dont forget scrolls!!! You can cast spells like find familiar from them, saves spell slots which you get so few.
Emergency scrolls for higher level spells are also a kick ass option if you have the arcana proficency.

yeah this so much. I played one and i kept like a bandolier belt of scroll tubes with some super important spells that I wouldnt have room for otherwise.

Tanarii

2016-12-07, 04:18 PM

I cast silent image before combat, giving myself a hiding justification.What special hiding justification does Silent Image give? It's just worse cover, that goes away if it interacts physically with anything. That means it has all the DM interpretation issues regarding pop-up hiding that cover does.

Edit: If you mean you can create cover to hide behind even when there is none, yes, it definitely does that.

Klorox

2016-12-07, 10:53 PM

MinotaurWarrior

2016-12-08, 01:35 PM

Below, I'm defending a certain style of play. I want to be clear out front that I'm not saying other styles are bad or wrong or not fun. If your player wants to play a 1/3 Caster Rogue that stands and fights and doesn't engage in shenanigans, that's fantastic and I hope they have a bunch of fun with that, utilizing all the advice provided by advocates of that playstyle.

AT's are the best melee Rogues.

Take your pick of Blur, Mirror Image, Shield, Prot vs. E/G, (Greater) Invisibility and more...combine with high Dex and you're often looking at AC 20+ with opponents rolling at Disadvantage. Add solid damage output from BB/GFB+Sneak Attack and off-turn Sneak Attack OA's, plus the option of being able to control the battlefield to your advantage with the likes of Cloud of Daggers, Fog Cloud, etc...AT's can mix it up in a stand up fight like a boss. Hell, work your way into the midst of a mook-squad and drop Fireball on yourself; Evasion to the rescue and you're looking at a lot of dead mooks and you unscathed. Just because you're in melee, doesn't mean you have to make melee attacks...

Yes, but if you're doing that, you didn't magical ambush: mind control. Maintaining concentration on suggestions turns whole dungeons on their heads, and while fireball can do a lot of damage, Hypnotic Pattern just flat out wins fights. Less on the power, back to the fun, shield is a great spell, but every time you cast it that's an illusory wall you can't hide behind or use to cut off an enemy's escape.

ATs may make fine melee rogues, but melee rogues aren't great tricksters. I mean, consider how few of those spells you mentioned are actually illusions or enchantments?

I noted that you'd go melee if damage is your thing. That said, with booming blade and Cunning Action, I'm not really planning to spend much time "in melee" even though I'm making melee attacks. With shield, Uncanny Dodge, and Evasion, however, I am perfectly capable of dealing with attacks (ranged, melee, or spell) when necessary. With my 1/3 spell slots, I'm probably not casting a lot of suggestion spells in combat -- there are bards and wizards for that. I might cast the spell to avoid combat or get what I want without resorting to combat, but then it's irrelevant whether I'm predominantly melee or ranged in combat.

1) even with cunning action, if you're making melee attacks, you're exposing yourself to more danger than if you can safely retreat to far away.

2) Magical ambushes work really really well not just to avoid combat, but also to start them. If I can suggest to a captive monster that it turn on its handlers, or set up a hypnotic pattern to isolate the Aboleth from its chuul servants, maintaining that concentration becomes my number one job.

3) Arcane tricksters are arguably the best at casting Hypnotic Pattern, Fear, and Confusion. Wizards and Bards never get to inflict disadvantage on the saves, and it's costly for sorcerers to do so, plus none of those classes are as good at getting into the optimal position to cast it in the surprise round while all the enemies are clustered together.

I don't see it as a "player agency" issue. I just don't think there's often much benefit in being able to shoot a target 320 feet away when you're in a thirty-by-thirty room or can only see sixty feet. Still, there may be campaigns where SS is a great choice, even when sneak attack damage will obsolete the -5/+10 feature fairly quickly.

SS removes the disadvantage not just at the maximum range - it's an asset from as close as 85ft. And cover should also be more abundant than that.

Obviously long weapon ranges are most useful in overland encounters. But if the enemies are in a 30 x 30 room, well, what can you the sneaky rogue do to get them into a more favorable battlefield? What happens when you use MHL to turn out the bandit's campfire and cast them into darkness? Where do they go? Perhaps into the long hallway, where they can retrieve a lit torch? That's the sort of player agency I'm talking about. When circumstances don't favor the Arcane Trickster, the Arcane Trickster can often change his circumstances. The less you're able to do that, the less valuable circumstantial benefits are.

That's 12 levels of needing Familiar Advantage the same amount as everyone else, 9 levels of time where you have Find Familiar but not Versatile Trickster, a significant amount of time. Waiting a level to relearn Find Familiar isn't insignificant either.

Versatile Trickster also takes your bonus action. Reliable of course, but it prevents Cunning Action whereas an owl familiar wouldn't. There's a very strong case for keeping Find Familiar as a spell, and I'd rather have both sources of advantage.

I guess it depends on how quick you level, and how permissive your DM is with spending an hour around a brass brazier in a dangerous circumstance / lugging brass braziers around. Iirc most of those 9 levels pass in a single adventuring day.

What special hiding justification does Silent Image give? It's just worse cover, that goes away if it interacts physically with anything. That means it has all the DM interpretation issues regarding pop-up hiding that cover does.

Edit: If you mean you can create cover to hide behind even when there is none, yes, it definitely does that.

Yes, that's what I mean. It can provide a justification where otherwise there would be none. And it can be a better justification than anything occurring naturally. E.g. I can make the silent image of an Arcane Gate effect, which makes much more sense as justification for hiding than might an isolated shrub.

Finieous

2016-12-08, 01:57 PM

MinotaurWarrior

2016-12-08, 02:24 PM

1. I agree. The melee rogue will do more damage but will typically also be exposed to more danger.
2. ATs who use AT spells and class abilities to fight in melee when damage output is called for can do all these trickster things when they are called for.
3. See #2.

1 takes away from 2&3. If maintaining my concentration is completely changing the battlefield, then maintaining it is a higher priority than dealing more damage (to me). For instance, an Aboleth and 4 Chuul's is a deadly encounter for four level 14 PCs. If I Magical Ambush hypnotic pattern (99% chance success on each), I've effectively dropped it down to an easy encounter. I can then bonus action dash and be as much as 180ft away when regular rounds start, plinking away with my shortbow from a safe distance. If, on the other hand, I'm trying to fight in melee, I'm exposing myself to as many as six melee attacks a turn, any of which could turn this back into a deadly encounter.

You seem to be under the impression that fighting in melee means the AT can't do trickstery things. I don't know why. You don't need any feats or other build requirements (such as SS and/or CE for the ranged AT). You need a cantrip and a spell. The rest just comes with the AT package. The rest of your build choices and spell selections can be as trickstery as you want.

Other posters were recommending more than just the one cantrip and spell. Also, a melee AT probably wants resilient: con and Warcaster at least as much as the ranged one wants SS. But the biggest thing is definitely just the risk of losing concentration.

JellyPooga

2016-12-08, 02:36 PM

ATs may make fine melee rogues, but melee rogues aren't great tricksters. I mean, consider how few of those spells you mentioned are actually illusions or enchantments?

You're absolutely right that an Arcane Trickster can be played in a lot of other ways than just mixing it up in melee. The point I was making is that, of all the Rogue Archetypes, AT is one of the best for doing so; definitely better than Thief or Assassin, probably better than Mastermind and whether it's better than Swashbuckler or not is at least open for debate. If you want to be a front-line melee Rogue, AT is where it's at.

Whether or not it's more effective than shenanigans like Suggestion, Hypnotic Pattern, etc is beside the point and to be fair, if you want to be playing with those kind of toys, you're probably better off playing a full spellcaster Class, who get to play with more fun toys, more often and sooner than AT. As a spellslinger, AT trades away far too much in the way of slots and spell levels for what they get in return compared to say, a Bard.

Finieous

2016-12-08, 02:40 PM

1 takes away from 2&3. If maintaining my concentration is completely changing the battlefield, then maintaining it is a higher priority than dealing more damage (to me). For instance, an Aboleth and 4 Chuul's is a deadly encounter for four level 14 PCs. If I Magical Ambush hypnotic pattern (99% chance success on each), I've effectively dropped it down to an easy encounter. I can then bonus action dash and be as much as 180ft away when regular rounds start, plinking away with my shortbow from a safe distance. If, on the other hand, I'm trying to fight in melee, I'm exposing myself to as many as six melee attacks a turn, any of which could turn this back into a deadly encounter.

Sounds like an awesome idea for this encounter. The "melee AT" can do it, too, and then do more damage in all the other encounters that day. And that's fine, since the 14th-level AT only has two 3rd-level slots. The "melee AT" can even "plink away" at range in this situation -- he'll do just as much damage as the "ranged AT," since -5/+10 is a loser with 7d6 sneak attack dice.

Other posters were recommending more than just the one cantrip and spell. Also, a melee AT probably wants resilient: con and Warcaster at least as much as the ranged one wants SS. But the biggest thing is definitely just the risk of losing concentration.

Both the melee AT and the ranged AT probably want either Resilient (Con) or Warcaster. But okay, sure, the melee AT takes one of them instead of SS and now he's better than the ranged AT at maintaining those trickstery concentration spells (such as hypnotic pattern).

Heather

2016-12-08, 03:01 PM

A lot of these replies seem to be focusing on combat, which is fine. But there's more to D&D than combat. :)

I made an Arcane Trickster with the Charlatan background and the Actor feat and took a bunch of illusion-based spells. Basically, he can be anyone he wants and can trick just about anyone into believing anything. He's no slouch when it comes to combat, either. With a pair of shortswords he's able to do a bit of damage.

Finieous

2016-12-08, 03:22 PM

A lot of these replies seem to be focusing on combat, which is fine. But there's more to D&D than combat. :)

Actually, I think this is the best thing about the subclass: it's pretty much terrific in the social, exploration and combat pillars right out of the box. And for that matter, while we've been arguing about "ranged vs. melee," the AT can be effective in both simply by virtue of high Dex and sneak attack.

JellyPooga

2016-12-08, 03:29 PM

For instance, an Aboleth and 4 Chuul's is a deadly encounter for four level 14 PCs. If I Magical Ambush hypnotic pattern (99% chance success on each), I've effectively dropped it down to an easy encounter. I can then bonus action dash and be as much as 180ft away when regular rounds start, plinking away with my shortbow from a safe distance. If, on the other hand, I'm trying to fight in melee, I'm exposing myself to as many as six melee attacks a turn, any of which could turn this back into a deadly encounter.

Hypnotic Pattern ends as soon as the charmed creature takes damage. One "raging waters" lair action from the Aboleth just wasted your 3rd level spell slot and your first turn on (effectively) "forcing" the Aboleth to deal 2d6 damage to each of his minions and/or giving your allies one "free hit" against each Chuul (once the charm breaks, the incapacitation breaks too). Other such shenanigans are similarly easily broken under the circumstances, without laying a finger on the Rogue.

On the flipside, a melee Rogue with Haste, combined with Mirror Image, which if you're starting from hidden (as you assume) you'll have time to get both up, with non-magical Studded Leather and Dex 20, gives you AC:12+5+2=19. Burning a 1st level slot on Shield as soon as you're attacked bumps that up to 24. Given that you're a front-liner, you could also have a Cleric cast Protection vs. E/G on you for Disadvantage on all incoming attacks too (as well as immunity to the Aboleths own Charm effects). You might have 6 incoming attacks, but with only +6 to hit, the Chuuls are only hitting on an 18+ and with possible (probable?) Disadvantage, that means you're almost never going to be hit. Even then they've got to actually target you and not one of your duplicates...So what was it you were saying about losing Concentration?

With Booming Blade, a move speed of at least 50ft (if you're Small...still fast enough to close-kite the 30ft speed Chuuls), two Actions per turn and (probably) the Sentinel feat, you're capable of a damage output of something in the region of 1d8+5 (rapier) + 6d8+5 (BB) + 7d6 (sneak attack) plus a possible OA (admittedly forcing you to drop Shield) for another 1d8+5+7d6, for an eyeballed DPR of around 90ish...about enough to drop a Chuul with only slightly better than average rolls and that's not even considering more optimal tactics, magic items or any other spells you might cast or have cast on you.

Is that threat enough to draw the Chuuls attention? I'd say so. While you're tanking all the Chuuls, the rest of the party can deal with the Aboleth itself and draw it's attention from you. Four, five, maybe six rounds in and you've a good chance of having taken out all the Chuuls single handed. With Warcaster, it's unlikely that Haste has dropped, if you've even been hit at all and you can turn your attention to the Aboleth as well.

MinotaurWarrior

2016-12-08, 04:03 PM

You're absolutely right that an Arcane Trickster can be played in a lot of other ways than just mixing it up in melee. The point I was making is that, of all the Rogue Archetypes, AT is one of the best for doing so; definitely better than Thief or Assassin, probably better than Mastermind and whether it's better than Swashbuckler or not is at least open for debate. If you want to be a front-line melee Rogue, AT is where it's at.

Well, I'd normally argue that MC is really where it's at, but that's a different thread.

Whether or not it's more effective than shenanigans like Suggestion, Hypnotic Pattern, etc is beside the point and to be fair, if you want to be playing with those kind of toys, you're probably better off playing a full spellcaster Class, who get to play with more fun toys, more often and sooner than AT. As a spellslinger, AT trades away far too much in the way of slots and spell levels for what they get in return compared to say, a Bard.

I really disagree. If you want to be a master of magical shenanigans, Arcane Trickster is the way to go. Bard does get expertise to partially compete with the essence of the skill + spell synergy, and sorcerer does have heightened spell to compete with magical ambush, but cunning action always gives you an edge, reliable talent puts you over the top, and nobody else gets both expertise and the ability to inflict disadvantage on saves. Plus MHL.

Sounds like an awesome idea for this encounter. The "melee AT" can do it, too, and then do more damage in all the other encounters that day. And that's fine, since the 14th-level AT only has two 3rd-level slots.

The ranged AT can do it better, can do it in the next (or previous) encounter, and can use a different spell for a similar strategy for the rest of the adventuring day.

The "melee AT" can even "plink away" at range in this situation -- he'll do just as much damage as the "ranged AT," since -5/+10 is a loser with 7d6 sneak attack dice.

He'll have disadvantage if he's out of range of the Aboleth's ability to retaliate, as well as potentially having cover.

Both the melee AT and the ranged AT probably want either Resilient (Con) or Warcaster. But okay, sure, the melee AT takes one of them instead of SS and now he's better than the ranged AT at maintaining those trickstery concentration spells (such as hypnotic pattern).

Except he's not, because not having to save at all is way better than having to take saves with advantage or + prof.

Hypnotic Pattern ends as soon as the charmed creature takes damage. One "raging waters" lair action from the Aboleth just wasted your 3rd level spell slot and your first turn on (effectively) "forcing" the Aboleth to deal 2d6 damage to each of his minions and/or giving your allies one "free hit" against each Chuul (once the charm breaks, the incapacitation breaks too). Other such shenanigans are similarly easily broken under the circumstances, without laying a finger on the Rogue.

If they're in the water and miss their saves. Also, the point would be to focus on the aboleth and bypass the chuul screen. If the rest of your part is just three frenzy barbs with GWM, they can drop it in one round (2d6+10+5+3 = 25 damage. With RA they hit AC 17 70% of the time, 157.5 damage > 135 hp)

On the flipside, a melee Rogue with Haste, combined with Mirror Image, which if you're starting from hidden (as you assume) you'll have time to get both up, with non-magical Studded Leather and Dex 20, gives you AC:12+5+2=19. Burning a 1st level slot on Shield as soon as you're attacked bumps that up to 24. Given that you're a front-liner, you could also have a Cleric cast Protection vs. E/G on you for Disadvantage on all incoming attacks too (as well as immunity to the Aboleths own Charm effects). You might have 6 incoming attacks, but with only +6 to hit, the Chuuls are only hitting on an 18+ and with possible (probable?) Disadvantage, that means you're almost never going to be hit. Even then they've got to actually target you and not one of your duplicates...So what was it you were saying about losing Concentration?

Chuuls have detect magic 120ft. If you do this, combat starts at 120ft away outside of surprise rounds.

With Booming Blade, a move speed of at least 50ft (if you're Small...still fast enough to close-kite the 30ft speed Chuuls), two Actions per turn and (probably) the Sentinel feat, you're capable of a damage output of something in the region of 1d8+5 (rapier) + 6d8+5 (BB) + 7d6 (sneak attack) plus a possible OA (admittedly forcing you to drop Shield) for another 1d8+5+7d6, for an eyeballed DPR of around 90ish...about enough to drop a Chuul with only slightly better than average rolls and that's not even considering more optimal tactics, magic items or any other spells you might cast or have cast on you.

Is that threat enough to draw the Chuuls attention? I'd say so. While you're tanking all the Chuuls, the rest of the party can deal with the Aboleth itself and draw it's attention from you. Four, five, maybe six rounds in and you've a good chance of having taken out all the Chuuls single handed. With Warcaster, it's unlikely that Haste has dropped, if you've even been hit at all and you can turn your attention to the Aboleth as well.

Yes, PCs can win deadly combats. By casting two spells, preparing to cast a third, and having a cleric cast another on you, you have a good shot at winning.

JellyPooga

2016-12-08, 04:44 PM

Well, I'd normally argue that MC is really where it's at, but that's a different thread.

Indeed.

I really disagree. If you want to be a master of magical shenanigans, Arcane Trickster is the way to go. Bard does get expertise to partially compete with the essence of the skill + spell synergy, and sorcerer does have heightened spell to compete with magical ambush, but cunning action always gives you an edge, reliable talent puts you over the top, and nobody else gets both expertise and the ability to inflict disadvantage on saves. Plus MHL.

Arcane Trickster gets Magical Ambush, yes, but it also lags behind in spell level...a lot. While AT is toying with Charm Person, Bard has Suggestion. When AT gets Suggestion, Bard has Polymorph. When AT finally gets his grubby paws on Polymorph, Bard has been making Wishes for a while...

Sure, an AT can pull some neat tricks with Cunning Action or MHL combined with slinging some (relatively) low level spells around, but they just don't compete, even with imposing Disadvantage on Saves.

You claim Hypnotic Pattern from an AT is a decent spell with a good success rate? The Wizard can just cast Reverse Gravity, doesn't need to hide first, doesn't allow a save and probably screws with the Aboleth to boot, because half his pond just hit the ceiling, allowing your three Frenzy Barbs to charge in to the now shallow water to engage the Aboleth in melee. Your "shenanigan" is a neat trick to impress a yokels, sure, but for actually winning a fight with magic...they just don't compete with an actual spellcaster.

Leave the spellcasting to the professionals; AT's have just enough to fake it, but no more.

If they're in the water

Why wouldn't they be?

Chuuls have detect magic 120ft. If you do this, combat starts at 120ft away outside of surprise rounds.

Haste + Bonus Action Dash = (30x2)x2=120ft movement plus two Actions. Your point being?

Saggo

2016-12-08, 06:21 PM

I guess it depends on how quick you level, and how permissive your DM is with spending an hour around a brass brazier in a dangerous circumstance / lugging brass braziers around. Iirc most of those 9 levels pass in a single adventuring day.

Casting time and material requirements are non-issues. If you're safe enough to short rest, you're safe enough to cast (ritual if possible, but multiple advantages is always a good use of a 1st level slot), and a functional brazier only needs to reasonably be the size of a cooking pan.

I think you're overstating how quickly levels come around. Averaging one level a day has honestly not been my experience and I don't see how the recommended adventuring day supports that. However, should you be able to afford swapping Find Familiar as needed, waiting up to a potentially a full adventuring day to replace your Familiar represents many lost opportunities for advantage. It's an uncertain amount but the risk is there. The most certain (and easiest) way to mitigate that risk is to simply keep Find Familiar in your spell list and it becomes better mitigation the more days between levels you have.

Regardless of how quick, levels 3-12 still represent a significant portion of most campaigns, definitely for all published campaigns. Versatile Trickster, while a great feature, has no value there and can't replace the value of Find Familiar. And when you do get Versatile Trickster, it still takes your bonus action to use (no Cunning Action, no TWF, and no Crossbow Expert) whereas Familiars are independent of your turn, and so it still can't fully replace the value of Find Familiar.

It does complement Find Familiar as it provides a reliable source of advantage in turns that the Familiar is unavailable for whatever reason.

So if you want a source of advantage in combat, a Familiar is still extremely valuable to an Arcane Trickster and you should plan your spell list accordingly. I think you're downplaying the value of Find Familiar too much.

Asmotherion

2016-12-08, 08:06 PM

Hey folks,

One of my fellow players died and is rejoining as an arcane trickster. She thought it sounds fun and all, but we realized that we really haven't looked into this archetype nearly as much as others. She was previously our party infiltrator as a shadow Monk.

She is a level 5 half elf rogue. We are choosing not to multiclass at our table.
17, 17, 14, 13, 13, 11 as rolled base stats.

We see that there are a lot of magehand type class abilities and some limited spell options.

Here are our main questions/concerns:

1)What are the go to spells to pick up?
2)are there any must have feats?
3)What do you think the ability score increases/feats should look like?
4) What is an arcane trickster niche in combat?
5)what are some useful tricks/uses for the arcane trickers abilities?
6)any useful advice / ideas you may be willing to offer.

Thank you in advance, your superior experience and booksmarts never fail to impress giantitp!

-dove

1) Mirror Image, Blink, Blur, Invisibility, Find Familiar. You also want Booming and (if possible) Green-Flame Blade.
2) War Caster. Magic initiate to get either Hunter's mark or Hex (And if you do, feel free to replace blur). Then, depends on your build. If melee, something melee oriented, if ranged, something ranged oriented.
3) Max your Dexterity. Have a decent constitution and wisdom. You can dump the rest. Either way, you'll be using a Finess or Ranged weapon (required for sneak attack). You can invest a bit in INT, but don't worry too much about it, as you won't be delivering spell attack rolls, and possibly no save spells either.
4) Take advantage of you familiar's help action or latter mage hand to always deliver your sneak attack. The help action/mage hand's distraction give you advantage on your next attack, witch meats the clauses to trigger sneak attack without the need to be hidden.
5&6) If melee: Your first turn should be used to cast Mirror Image (assuming your familiar/mage hand is with you). This gives you enough time to cast Blink (making you invulnerable 50% of the time), and blur (to give disadvantage to your oponent) if cornered. Then have your familiar use the help action wile it's within 5 feet of the target, and use Booming Blade. This triggers sneak attack, as you did use a finess weapon for the attack of booming blade, thus the requirements are met. Use Hex/Hunter's mark, instead of Blur for an extra d6 of damage. If ranged, wile you are virtually safer, you still need to worry about other ranged attackers, and cannot profit from Booming or Green-Flame Blade as a damage boost, considerably lowering your dammage. Also, you can't use mage hand distraction as effectivelly, as it's range limits you to be within 30 feet of the target. Overall, I think the melee Arcane Trickster benefits more of his mechanics, without that meaning that the ranged one is a lesser threat.

Jeebs

2016-12-08, 08:11 PM

AT's are the best melee Rogues.

Take your pick of Blur, Mirror Image, Shield, Prot vs. E/G, (Greater) Invisibility and more...combine with high Dex and you're often looking at AC 20+ with opponents rolling at Disadvantage. Add solid damage output from BB/GFB+Sneak Attack and off-turn Sneak Attack OA's, plus the option of being able to control the battlefield to your advantage with the likes of Cloud of Daggers, Fog Cloud

I plan to play my AT this way, taking Sentinel at level 4.

I think it would be especially fun to pair with a Barbarian party member. When they use Reckless Attack and Rage, and you use Blur and Sentinel, there's no easy melee target for your DM.

Asmotherion

2016-12-08, 08:24 PM

I plan to play my AT this way, taking Sentinel at level 4.

I think it would be especially fun to pair with a Barbarian party member. When they use Reckless Attack and Rage, and you use Blur and Sentinel, there's no easy melee target for your DM.

Be careful about sentinel though; If you intend to use Booming Blade you'll loose it's secondary benefits with sentinel.

MinotaurWarrior

2016-12-08, 08:43 PM

Arcane Trickster gets Magical Ambush, yes, but it also lags behind in spell level...a lot. While AT is toying with Charm Person, Bard has Suggestion. When AT gets Suggestion, Bard has Polymorph. When AT finally gets his grubby paws on Polymorph, Bard has been making Wishes for a while...

Sure, an AT can pull some neat tricks with Cunning Action or MHL combined with slinging some (relatively) low level spells around, but they just don't compete, even with imposing Disadvantage on Saves.

Yes, spellcasters are better spellslinging. The Arcane Trickster is better at, well, the things it and it's class features are named after.

Arguably, at levels 3-8 the Bard is actually better at this role, since he also has expertise and has better spellcasting. MHL is still something he can't replicate, and bonus action hide is nothing to be sneezed at, but he can sneak into the room full of guards and cast sleep before picking the lock and freeing the prisoners pretty much just as well as the AT. But especially after level 9, the Arcane Trickster is just doing something fundamentally different from spellslinging. I am fulfilling a different role by sneaking behind enemy lines and reliably compelling a monster to turn on his allies than the bard is by turning enemies into newts and allies into Giant Apes.

You claim Hypnotic Pattern from an AT is a decent spell with a good success rate? The Wizard can just cast Reverse Gravity, doesn't need to hide first, doesn't allow a save and probably screws with the Aboleth to boot, because half his pond just hit the ceiling, allowing your three Frenzy Barbs to charge in to the now shallow water to engage the Aboleth in melee. Your "shenanigan" is a neat trick to impress a yokels, sure, but for actually winning a fight with magic...they just don't compete with an actual spellcaster.

1st off, it's not need to, it's get to hide.

But anyway, that's a somewhat poorly chosen spell, because all it does if there's a source of water in the AOE is create a 50x50x100 prism for the aboleth an Chuul to Swim in, practically giving them a fly speed. And while there's not really explicit rules on swimming in flow iirc, if the Aboleth can fight against gravity to be at the top of the water it's in now, why couldn't it stay fairly close to the same position when the top becomes the bottom?

But yeah, wizards can cast gamechanging spells. Say he casts forcecage. Super powerful. Doesn't even take up his concentration. Gets all the Chuuls. Now though, it happens in normal initiative, so it's got some risk, and it's his only 7th level slot (compared to the rogues 2 3rd level slots) but regardless, they won the fight!

Just like the AT did.

DnD is a game where you win. Saying that there's another way to win isn't unexpected and it doesn't make this other way bad.

Leave the spellcasting to the professionals; AT's have just enough to fake it, but no more.

They don't actually have enough to fake it. They have enough to do a fairly different thing.

Why wouldn't they be?

Chuul's were created by the aboleth to project force onto the dry land where Aboleth's couldn't travel. I've only ever encountered them with their feet on dry ground, but I mean, you're right that they might not be. I think that'd be another decent case for an AT changing circumstances to their advantage, with an AT trying to draw their interest to a point where their legs wouldn't be in water, but that may or may not be possible and the the AT might have to try a different trick.

Haste + Bonus Action Dash = (30x2)x2=120ft movement plus two Actions. Your point being?

That's a worse place to start a fight. Either you're going leeroy jenkins, or you're proceeding a bit more cautiously with your team, and the enemy gets to actually do stuff to you. You almost certainly win (again, DnD) but you actually spent more resources to do it, and you're taking more risk.

Casting time and material requirements are non-issues. If you're safe enough to short rest, you're safe enough to cast (ritual if possible, but multiple advantages is always a good use of a 1st level slot), and a functional brazier only needs to reasonably be the size of a cooking pan.

Yeah, I pictured something bigger, but you're right.

I think you're overstating how quickly levels come around. Averaging one level a day has honestly not been my experience and I don't see how the recommended adventuring day supports that. However, should you be able to afford swapping Find Familiar as needed, waiting up to a potentially a full adventuring day to replace your Familiar represents many lost opportunities for advantage. It's an uncertain amount but the risk is there. The most certain (and easiest) way to mitigate that risk is to simply keep Find Familiar in your spell list and it becomes better mitigation the more days between levels you have.

Upon further review, that is not what the tables recommend. It is my experience, both when I run games and play them, but YMMV.

Regardless of how quick, levels 3-12 still represent a significant portion of most campaigns, definitely for all published campaigns. Versatile Trickster, while a great feature, has no value there and can't replace the value of Find Familiar. And when you do get Versatile Trickster, it still takes your bonus action to use (no Cunning Action, no TWF, and no Crossbow Expert) whereas Familiars are independent of your turn, and so it still can't fully replace the value of Find Familiar.

It does complement Find Familiar as it provides a reliable source of advantage in turns that the Familiar is unavailable for whatever reason.

So if you want a source of advantage in combat, a Familiar is still extremely valuable to an Arcane Trickster and you should plan your spell list accordingly. I think you're downplaying the value of Find Familiar too much.

I think it's valuable to cast, just not too valuable to have as a recast, compared to other first level non I&E spells like shield. That being said, I see where my experience is not actually what the DMG recommends, so I'd retract my recommendation to have it just for one level. If you want that spell, you should keep that spell.

Potato_Priest

2016-12-08, 09:17 PM

Hey folks,

1)What are the go to spells to pick up?
4) What is an arcane trickster niche in combat?
5)what are some useful tricks/uses for the arcane trickers abilities?
6)any useful advice / ideas you may be willing to offer.

-dove

I've only played Arcane Trickster once but I loved it. In general, illusion spells are good, and I'd recommend feather fall. Rogues seem to spend a lot of time on rooftops and balconies, and feather fall saved my life when I played an Arcane Trickster. When you can get it, invisibility and pass without trace will ensure you never fail a stealth check again. The only reason I stopped playing an arcane trickster was we had a bullying fighter in the party, and the paladin and him liked to gang up on me. Being a small category rogue with no allies, I had no good recourse.

The best trick that I ever did with the arcane trickster was when I was infiltrating the mages' guild alone to steal a spell scroll for my wizard friend. I had the scroll and was on my way out when I was spotted and the alarm was rung. Luckily for me it was the middle of the night, so a bunch of sleepy wizards came out of their rooms in their bathrobes. I used my mage hand to untie their bathrobes as I made my escape, and a lot of them went back into their rooms out of embarrassment!

Asmotherion

2016-12-08, 09:31 PM

Indeed.

Arcane Trickster gets Magical Ambush, yes, but it also lags behind in spell level...a lot. While AT is toying with Charm Person, Bard has Suggestion. When AT gets Suggestion, Bard has Polymorph. When AT finally gets his grubby paws on Polymorph, Bard has been making Wishes for a while...

Sure, an AT can pull some neat tricks with Cunning Action or MHL combined with slinging some (relatively) low level spells around, but they just don't compete, even with imposing Disadvantage on Saves.

You claim Hypnotic Pattern from an AT is a decent spell with a good success rate? The Wizard can just cast Reverse Gravity, doesn't need to hide first, doesn't allow a save and probably screws with the Aboleth to boot, because half his pond just hit the ceiling, allowing your three Frenzy Barbs to charge in to the now shallow water to engage the Aboleth in melee. Your "shenanigan" is a neat trick to impress a yokels, sure, but for actually winning a fight with magic...they just don't compete with an actual spellcaster.

Leave the spellcasting to the professionals; AT's have just enough to fake it, but no more.

Why wouldn't they be?

Haste + Bonus Action Dash = (30x2)x2=120ft movement plus two Actions. Your point being?

It's quite obvious that pure spellcasters are always going to be better at spellcasting than 1/2 and 1/3 casters... nothing surprising there.

I believe you don't really grasp what the Arcane Trickster is all about. It's a common misconception to believe 1/3 casters (namely Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters) are "fighters and rogues who can cast fireballs".

The Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight are supposed to combine their class features with spellcasting (and thus, selected spells) in the most efficient way. So, yeah, I agree with you that an Arcane Trickster should better leave that job to the Wizard or Sorcerer, however, why should he tax his fellow party member with casting Haste on him, wile he can do so himseld, and leave the oportunity to the real spellcaster to cast the mentioned fireball on his turn? This way, he becomes more valuable to the party, action-economy wise. Also, by combining his lower level spells (as described in my previous post), he can have a deadly combo of both better offence with Booming/Green-Flame blade (and possibly Hex via Magic Initiate), and almost unpenetrable defance, when combined with his high AC, miss chance from his Mirror Image, Disadvantage from Blur, and 50% chance to disapear at the end of the turn through Blink.

His role is not to compete with other casters in terms of "my magic is stronger than yours", but to compete with other non-spellcasters in term of "my intelligent and efficient use of magic makes me a stronger warior than you".

Potato_Priest

2016-12-08, 09:31 PM

Some general stuff (some already mentioned):
- make sure you get a reaction attack (with feats or multiclassing); doing 2 times sneak attack damage is a huge increase in DPR

Do you interpret "once per turn" to mean once on your turn and then every time off of it? I always assumed it meant once per every time your initiative rolled around, no matter whether it was on or off your turn.

Edit: Found the Sage advice ruling about this.

Specter

2016-12-08, 09:36 PM

There have been too many comments since last time, so:

About the AT getting spells too late with few slots:
Can the wizard deal 14d6dmg with a cantrip? Can he avoid 6 melee opponents that are around him and still do something productive? Can he turn a critical hit into a regular hit? Can he have good skills? Can a wizard have 8 skills without wasting a feat on it? Can he turn a dragon's breath into nothing? Can he take 10 in any Arcana check? Can he have a decent AC? Can he give disadvantage on saves practically at-will? Can he get +1HP every level (cheap shot, I know)? Can a wizard get a free feat? Guess not.

The AT is not a caster, but casters aren't anything else. Or to sum it up...

His role is not to compete with other casters in terms of "my magic is stronger than yours", but to compete with other non-spellcasters in term of "my intelligent and efficient use of magic makes me a stronger warrior than you".

JellyPooga

2016-12-08, 11:06 PM

Arguably, at levels 3-8 the Bard is actually better at this role
That isn't arguable; that's a fact (and it's levels 1-8, not 3-8). AT has virtually nothing bar MHL and Cunning Action, with regards to the "Arcane" and "Trickster" roles, on the Bard before he gets Magical Ambush at 9th.

he can sneak into the room full of guards and cast sleep before picking the lock and freeing the prisoners pretty much just as well as the AT.
AT has a singular advantage on the Bard for that particular scenario and that's the option of having Expertise with Thieves Tools. Even then, the Bard has his own advantages that the AT doesn't (like higher level slots to cast that Sleep spell with, making him more reliable and able to affect more Guards.)

But especially after level 9, the Arcane Trickster is just doing something fundamentally different from spellslinging.
I agree, he is doing something fundamentally different but it shouldn't, generally, be trying to compete by using comparatively sub-par spells like Hypnotic Pattern, when an actual spellcaster has the capability to fill that role better with higher level spells/slots.

Sure an AT can pick up a couple of decent "Save or X" spells to use with Magical Ambush, like the ones you suggest, but focusing on them is a way to be a base-line Rogue with a bunch of largely irrelevant or ineffectual spells. Bear in mind that as an AT, you probably aren't sporting a truly competitive Intelligence to get your Spell Save DC's high enough to be that reliable, even with the Disadvantage. The primary focus of an AT should be bolstering his strengths as a Rogue; Invisibility, Haste, Silent/Major Image and other spells that don't rely on a decent casting stat, to take the onus off of the full-casters to provide them for you.

Yes, Magical Ambush can be good in the right scenario, but only when those low-level spells are actually relevant...which isn't often given the relative CR of the critters you'll be facing with those spells:
- Hold Person, for example, is a great spell at level 3 when full-casters get it, it's still pretty decent at level 7 when an AT gets it and it'll remain relevant at level 9 because of Magical Ambush. By the time you're level 13 and have just got hold of level 3 spells though, that Hold Person (even with the Disadvantage from MA) just isn't cutting the mustard against the likes of an Archmage (CR:12, +6 Wis Save with Advantage vs. spells, access to Counterspell), which is the highest CR humanoid in the MM.
- Hypnotic Pattern is great against low CR critters, making it an excellent spell at level 5 (when a full caster gets it) and it's still got it's uses at level 10, but by level 13 when AT gets it, it's just not worth the effort; just flicking through the MM it's immediately apparent that it's almost completely ineffective against Undead and Constructs, Devils all have Magic Resistance, Drow have Fey Ancestry, Genies all have high Wis Saves...the list goes on and most Boss or Lieutenant creatures you'll be facing at level 13+ will have Legendary Resistance which renders Magical Ambush largely irrelevant.

Magical Ambush is a nice feature to compensate the fact that your Int is probably lower than is needed to get any of your spells to stick at those higher levels, don't get me wrong, but it's a situational crutch at best and at worst it's a glorified ribbon.

The Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight are supposed to combine their class features with spellcasting (and thus, selected spells) in the most efficient way.

I absolutely agree. Leave the "Save or X" stuff to the real spellcasters; focus on the self buffs and other spells that complement your Roguishness.

Heather

2016-12-08, 11:41 PM

I absolutely agree. Leave the "Save or X" stuff to the real spellcasters; focus on the self buffs and other spells that complement your Roguishness.

This. My AT has absolutely ZERO damaging spells. That's not what the spellcasting is there for with this class. Leave the attack spells to the wizards and sorcerers. What you do best is infiltrate, deceive, and sneak your way through encounters. At 5th level, my AT has 3 cantrips and 4 1st-level spells - Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation (he's a con artist who specialises in exorcising "demons" from "haunted" houses), and Charm Person, Disguise Self, Feather Fall, Silent Image.

It's all about the roleplaying with an Arcane Trickster. If you want a combat wombat, make a fighter or a wizard.

Citan

2016-12-09, 07:31 AM

To JellyPooga and others.
Guys, really, you ARE missing the point.

The fact that you are in a party in which, for a given fight, the caster has a better "encounter-changing" spell does NOT matter.

Did you really hang back and think about the examples given?
You really should remember that there is only ONE concentration slot per character, and ONE slot for 6th level and beyond spells.

If an Arcane Trickster gets a chance to change the encounter difficulty with a 2nd or 3rd level slot, it's a big win for the party. Sure, a Diviner Wizard or a Sorcerer may have more slots, or higher level spell compared to what Rogue has.
But they are also people who gets many other good spells they may want to use, and many more roles to fill. So anything the party can do to alleviate their resource consumption is a big boost in the overall party economy.

So everytime an Arcane Trickster casts an Ambushed spell that a Wizard could cast instead, that is a spared slot of same or higher level for the Wizard to do other great things. Big win for the party. Especially spells that require concentration (Slow, Hypnotic Pattern, Phantasmal Force, Bestow Curse).

Telling the contrary would be as stupid as criticizing a Paladin who casts Bless "because we have a Cleric in our party already". Yeah, except the Cleric probably prefers keeing his 1st level slots for Healing Words and his Concentration for Spirit Guardians. Then the Paladin doesn't have much for spell encounters except Bless, Shield of Faith and smite spells. If he deemed that the situation did not require a smite spell, then I'm grateful he decides to buff 3 people among the party rather than boost just himself with a Heroism or SoF.

Or criticizing a high level Warlock who "overcasts" Darkness when he actually knows higher level or scalable spells. Except that it is part of his core tactics (let's avoid the debate about whether having such a character is a good or a bad thing for teamwork XD).

And the point about INT modifier is really (as always) meaningless. There is no reason why a Rogue could not get at least 16 INT while keeping great DEX and decent CON. Or get 18 DEX, max INT and take Warcaster/Resilient. Rogue has one more ASI than other classes after all, and a Trickster specialized in Magical Ambush will usually avoid danger anyways...

We will check two cases: AT built while keeping INT low, and AT which wants decent INT. I have no MM with me, so let's take an imaginary creature which gets a +5 bonus against the spell you throw at it.
We will refer to this table (http://andrewgelman.com/2014/07/12/dnd-5e-advantage-disadvantage-probability/) for probabilities.
First case: INT 10. Before Magical Ambush, it's indeed very unreliable : at lvl 1, DC is 8+2+0 = 10.
At level 9, it is 8+4 = 12.

Actual roll to meet: 10-5=5. With disadvantage you go from 80% to 64% chance.
Indeed, that is too low a chance to bother casting a save or suck spell.

Second case. INT Trickster: starting INT: 16, taking +2 INT at level 8.
At level 1, you have the same DC as a Wizard (if point-buy): 8+2+3 = 13.
At level 9, you have a DC equal to 8+4+4 = 16 (only one point less than maxed Wizard).
Actual rool to meet: 16-5= 11. With disadvantage, chances drop from 50% to 25%

Compared to a caster's max DC (lvl 20, max INT) without disadvantage: 8+6+5 = 19.
Actual roll to match: 19-5=14. Chances of matching: 35%.

In other words, a properly built Arcane Trickster using Magical Ambush has higher chances to land a save or suck spell than a peaking caster. With only a starting 16, he would have nearly the same chance. And would still statistically beat a caster of the same level, even with maxed casting stat.

Only casters that can beat this efficiency at constant level are Diviner Wizard (2/3 times per long rest), any Sorcerer (but for only one save on one target, and hefty SP cost), EK (up to 4 targets, no resource beyond action) and Shadow Sorcerer (one target, no resource beyond bonus action).

When a spell can change an encounter, having several people able to reliably cast it is always better. ;)

Tanarii

2016-12-09, 07:58 AM

Bear in mind that as an AT, you probably aren't sporting a truly competitive Intelligence to get your Spell Save DC's high enough to be that reliable, even with the Disadvantage. The primary focus of an AT should be bolstering his strengths as a Rogue; Invisibility, Haste, Silent/Major Image and other spells that don't rely on a decent casting stat, to take the onus off of the full-casters to provide them for you.
Int is already the secondary stat for any rogue that wants to figure out how to disable or bypass traps. Which is one of their bread-and-butter tasks in D&D. An AT has no reason not to get it up to at least an 16. This is an even more ridiculous claim than EKs regularly not wanting to raise Int.

And here's the thing: just like an EKs ability to undercut saving throws, applying disadvantage already makes up for a lower casting stat, if you chose not to flat out max it. That's the entire point of the ability. So if you *do* raise Int, you're even better off, albeit in a slightly narrower subset of circumstances. If you *don't* raise Int substantially, you can still land save spells with (approx) the same ability as a caster who raises their primary ability.

JellyPooga

2016-12-09, 08:11 AM

To JellyPooga and others.
Guys, really, you ARE missing the point.

(Snip)

If an Arcane Trickster gets a chance to change the encounter difficulty with a 2nd or 3rd level slot, it's a big win for the party.

I get what the point is...I just think it's incorrect.

An AT probably won't "change the difficulty" of a significant encounter with his 3rd level slots at level 13, because by that time those spells are almost as redundant as a Wizards standard melee attack when used in that way.

Used as a "force multiplier" (as with Haste) to improve upon the strengths of yourself or others, on the other hand, those same level 3 slots can be invaluable.

I'm not saying that spells like Hypnotic Pattern aren't situationally handy for an AT, but don't fool yourself into thinking you'll swing every encounter with their like just because of Magical Ambush. ATs play with spells an average of 3 levels lower than what's expected to be able to do that (i.e. full caster)...they simply don't have the juice.

Think of it this way; an AT is a commando and he can only carry so much gear. He has the option of taking a sniper rifle or some demo charges. The sniper rifle is great for taking down human targets, it's ideal in fact. Against a tank or battleship, on the other hand? He takes the demo-charges, because they complement his infiltration skills and allow him to engage on the scale he needs to, while the commando with the sniper rifle is stuck in a support role, at best.

Citan

2016-12-09, 08:23 AM

I get what the point is...I just think it's incorrect.

An AT probably won't "change the difficulty" of a significant encounter with his 3rd level slots at level 13, because by that time those spells are almost as redundant as a Wizards standard melee attack when used in that way.

Used as a "force multiplier" (as with Haste) to improve upon the strengths of yourself or others, on the other hand, those same level 3 slots can be invaluable.

I'm not saying that spells like Hypnotic Pattern aren't situationally handy for an AT, but don't fool yourself into thinking you'll swing every encounter with their like just because of Magical Ambush. ATs play with spells an average of 3 levels lower than what's expected to be able to do that (i.e. full caster)...they simply don't have the juice.

Think of it this way; an AT is a commando and he can only carry so much gear. He has the option of taking a sniper rifle or some demo charges. The sniper rifle is great for taking down human targets, it's ideal in fact. Against a tank or battleship, on the other hand? He takes the demo-charges, because they complement his infiltration skills and allow him to engage on the scale he needs to, while the commando with the sniper rifle is stuck in a support role, at best.
Well, let's take an actual example then.
Haste VS Slow which you get at 14th level IIRC.
Haste provides a boost to your AC, and another weapon attack. For an Arcane Trickster, that's a 1d8+5 boost at most per ROUND. So over a minute, that is +10d8.

Slow gives a -2 malus to AC, halves speed, and prevent creature from making more than one attack in its turn.
Let's say you affect only one enemy (which is really the worst of worst cases). If it has Multiattack (which is a strong possibility at this level), you just halved the number of attacks your allies could suffer. I don't know how you could evaluate this in AC boost, but I think we agree that this is huge.

Your allies also have a +2 boost in their to-hit (since AC diminished). If base AC of the creature was 18, it is now 16. You just gave everyone, you included, a net +10% chance to hit for the next minute.

Oh, it also affects Dexterity saving throw. Perfect for your caster friends's AOE or high level single target spells.

Oh, and you gave everyone free disengage around it.

Oh, and you deterred enemy caster capability, since now they ave a 50% chance of having their spell delaying until the next turn, which can be or not lifesaving.

Oh, and you prevented enemy casters to use Counterspell or Shield because there are reaction spells, so it will be much easier to dispatch them...

Oh. And... YOU CAN AFFECT UP TO 6 CREATURES with a single cast (40-foot cube, you can usually catch at least 2 creatures, often 3. With a 4E Monk, Repelling Warlock, Battlemaster or other, you may get up to 6 if you have some time to design a strategy).

AND your Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric/whatever pal still gets his own Concentration available for whatever high (or low) level spell he would like to use.

Is all of this worth learning the spell, getting a decent INT and taking the time to infiltrate enemy camp to find a nice hiding place? It's up to each one to decide. For me it's always definitely worth it, whatever my party is. Even considering how late you can use this particular combo, or the fact that depending on your targets, you may end with the one creature that was the priority to you being unaffected. XD

Could a Wizard or Sorcerer use a spell that provide a similar magnitude of benefit for the party? Probably. Could it do so with such few expense of resources (3rd level slot)? Unless it's a single target, absolutely not.

EDIT: That is why one of my favorite multiclass is Arcane Trickster with either Warlock or Sorcerer. Because you get more mileage of this ability, either by bumping Warlock up to the level you want for short rest slots, or using Sorcerer to convert some slots to get the ones you want (added Sorcerer benefit: Extend ^^). So you can use a few tactics nearly as regularly as would a caster. And depending on your target spell, the actual combination may come online at the same time as would a pure Arcane Tricskter. ;)

Asmotherion

2016-12-09, 08:36 AM

Citan

2016-12-09, 08:40 AM

Actually, I would criticize the mentioned paladin for wasting spell slots and an action on Bless, wile he could use the same action to:
A) Smite
B) Heal
C) Use a Smite Spell
D) Do something that is his role

Especially if the mentioned Paladin was in the same party as a Cleric. Whose Job is to Bless.

The Warlock with devil sight on the other hand does exactly his job when casting Darkness, as it is how that specific Warlock is expected to do to benefit of his Devil Sight. On the other hand, a Warlock who lacks Devi's Sight (either for being a warlock dip, or any other reason) is therefore not doing his job properly and should probably have used his precious spell slot for something diferent, like Armor of Agathys for example.

See?
That is exactly the core problem. You are theorycrafting (worse, in obviously a very specific encounter setting you imagined) to impose your own view.
Who are you to tell a Paladin that he should do that in particular? There are many reasons why smiting would not be the best thing to do. Unless you have all informations at hand for a given encounter, you have no opinion to give as to how a player acts (even then if would be arguable in fact, unless he really acts stupidly).

And telling that a Cleric's job is to Bless... My god, you must be awfully annoying in parties...
"Hey, healbot, buff/heal me or go die you'd be useless"...
If a Cleric job is to Bless, I wonder why then bothering learning and preparing so many other Concentration spells...:smallannoyed:
I even wonder why so many people are telling how great and fun Spirit Guardians is... They should be ashamed of themselves, they don't even realize they don't know how to play.

And even if a Warlock can use Darkness because of Devil's Sight, that does not mean casting it first thing in battle would always be the right thing to do.

I'm sorry, but guys like you are depressing, reducing a whole class to one-trick ponies... In that regard, such Warlock should just multiclass as soon as he got level 3 and never look back... Would that be a Warlock? XD

JellyPooga

2016-12-09, 08:43 AM

Well, let's take an actual example then.

You underplay Haste in this example fairly significantly. On a Rogue it doubles his Sneak Attack because he can attack AND ready an attack. With 7d6 Sneak Attack, over a minute, that's an improvement of 10d8+70d6 (average: 290) pretty reliable damage, withou factoring Dex mod, magic items or other damage buffs he might have.

Citan

2016-12-09, 08:51 AM

You underplay Haste in this example fairly significantly. On a Rogue it doubles his Sneak Attack because he can attack AND ready an attack. With 7d6 Sneak Attack, over a minute, that's an improvement of 10d8+70d6 (average: 290) pretty reliable damage, withou factoring Dex mod, magic items or other damage buffs he might have.
Good point, you are right. It's a great boost. ;)

With that said, an Arcane Trickster that does this cannot use Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade, because you actually use your action on Ready. And you use your reaction to trigger it.
So, on your turn, you make one Sneak Attack, then you use your reaction to launch Booming Blade.

Now, any Arcane Trickster could also use his action on Booming Blade, then use his reaction to make a usual opportunity attack (Sneak Attack, because we both consider it's enabled) or a Booming Blade Sneak Attack (if he took Warcaster).

Your tactic is great for a Rogue relying on ranged attack, because that is the only way to get an attack on another turn. There indeed Haste is a great choice.
For a melee Rogue, while it indeed brings more flexibility, it also carries much more risk if concentration is broken. So it's a good tactic if you are aware of the risks or made your character as required (Warcaster, possibly Resilient: Constitution on top).

Asmotherion

2016-12-09, 08:56 AM

See?
That is exactly the core problem. You are theorycrafting to impose your own view.
Who are you to tell a Paladin that he should do that in particular? There are many reasons why smiting would not be the best thing to do.

And telling that a Cleric's job is to Bless... My god, you must be awfully annoying in parties...
"Hey, healbot, buff/heal me or go die you'd be useless"...
If a Cleric job is to Bless, I wonder why then bothering learning and preparing so many other Concentration spells...:smallannoyed:
I even wonder why so many people are telling how great and fun Spirit Guardians is... They should be ashamed of themselves, they don't even realize they don't know how to play.

And even if a Warlock can use Darkness because of Devil's Sight, that does not mean casting it first thing in battle would always be the right thing to do.

I'm sorry, but guys like you are depressing, reducing a whole class to one-trick ponies... In that regard, such Warlock should just multiclass as soon as he got level 3 and never look back... Would that be a Warlock? XD

If he actually bothered to prepare more than one concentration spell, yes, that would be silly and sub optimal. What he should have done would be to chose between Spirit Guardian or Bless for an optimised spell list. Also a Cleric doesn't learn spells, he is just granted access to prepare them as he levels up... just saying...

It's not one trick ponies. There are many things you can pull with the right combinations of class/archetype/feats etc. It's just that Arcane Trickster throwing fireballs is not one of them...

Perhaps what you're saying is you don't like optimisation. Which is perfectly fine, and a respected opinion, however is off-topic, as the OP is specifically asking for optimisation advice.

Tanarii

2016-12-09, 09:34 AM

Perhaps what you're saying is you don't like optimisation. Which is perfectly fine, and a respected opinion, however is off-topic, as the OP is specifically asking for optimisation advice.That's a poor argument to try and make. Because a Cleric using his concentration to cast Bless when the party has a Paladin is capable of doing it is incredibly poor optimization on the part of the Cleric and Paladin.

JellyPooga

2016-12-09, 10:06 AM

With that said, an Arcane Trickster that does this cannot use Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade

As you say, it technically doesn't improve the Rogues potential any; Action+Reaction gives you Sneak Attack on each regardless of whether the Action or the Reaction is an Attack or a BB/GFB. What it does do is improve your reliability. With Haste up, you can all but guarantee that Reaction, while counting on getting an OA is far from a given, even with the likes of Sentinel.

How well this compares to, as you say, Slow which effectively force multiplies the entire party instead of just you, is what's under scrutiny. Slow being a debuff is a better example of what an AT can be good at than the likes of Hypnotic Pattern, a "shut down" spell, because there's too many things that are resistant or immune to those low level "shut down" spells at higher levels.

Slow is great, but still leaves a lot of work to be done; same as Haste. HypPat is situational and even then *not* great, because it's easily countered. The same can be said of most low-level "shut down" spells when used in higher tier play.

MrStabby

2016-12-09, 10:13 AM

It is true to say a 3rd level spell, applied tactically can make an encounter much easier.

The problem is that you can't do this every fight. You can do this a couple of times per day.

Basically you can cast level 3 spells as often as a full caster can cast a level 6+ spell.

So what you have to ask yourself is what is going to change the outcome more, a level 3 spell applied tactically, with potential disadvantage on save, or a bluntly applied level 6, 7, 8 or 9 spell.

My vote is that the raw power of the high level spells edges it.

Personally I would have preferred it if the AT could have got the spell boosts at lower levels so you could mix and match AT and caster to determine the mix of rogue and magic you wanted in your character.

Tanarii

2016-12-09, 10:25 AM

With Haste up, you can all but guarantee that Reaction, while counting on getting an OA is far from a given, even with the likes of Sentinel.This always makes me laugh ... the idea that you can 'all but guarantee [a] Reaction' attack.

Specter

2016-12-09, 10:56 AM

It's important to note that Haste will backfire insanely if you lose your concentration or get dispelled, because you will just sit there for one turn doing nothing.

Citan

2016-12-09, 11:10 AM

If he actually bothered to prepare more than one concentration spell, yes, that would be silly and sub optimal. What he should have done would be to chose between Spirit Guardian or Bless for an optimised spell list. Also a Cleric doesn't learn spells, he is just granted access to prepare them as he levels up... just saying...

It's not one trick ponies. There are many things you can pull with the right combinations of class/archetype/feats etc. It's just that Arcane Trickster throwing fireballs is not one of them...

Perhaps what you're saying is you don't like optimisation. Which is perfectly fine, and a respected opinion, however is off-topic, as the OP is specifically asking for optimisation advice.
I said prepare or learn because I was talking about casters in general, mind you. Your point is as stupid for Cleric as it would be for Sorcerers, Bards, Wizards or Druid (because what is the point of knowing that many spells that can answer different situations if you put 90% of them aside just because they all require concentration?). If you go through that logic, why would learning casters even bother learning anything else than one unique Concentration spell? :smallbiggrin:

That is the definition of one-trick pony.

We clearly have a different view of what optimization is, especially party optimization... Let's just congrat each other that we don't play together... :smalltongue:

As you say, it technically doesn't improve the Rogues potential any; Action+Reaction gives you Sneak Attack on each regardless of whether the Action or the Reaction is an Attack or a BB/GFB. What it does do is improve your reliability. With Haste up, you can all but guarantee that Reaction, while counting on getting an OA is far from a given, even with the likes of Sentinel.

How well this compares to, as you say, Slow which effectively force multiplies the entire party instead of just you, is what's under scrutiny. Slow being a debuff is a better example of what an AT can be good at than the likes of Hypnotic Pattern, a "shut down" spell, because there's too many things that are resistant or immune to those low level "shut down" spells at higher levels.
True enough your first paragraph, your tactic makes you much less dependant on either rightly anticipating enemy behaviour or relying on teamwork (especially if the DM is lenient enough to accept a Ready such as "as soon as this creature does anything I attack it" XD) ;)
And the "always succeed" of buff compared to "will it work" of debuff is always weighing significantly.
For a party of at least 3 people, I would probably always weigh on Magical Ambushed Slow though unless I know for sure the creatures are likely to pass the save nevertheless.

For a solo though... I was thinking about a situation where Slow would be the best choice, but I find only very narrow cornercases such as knowing you will face mainly casters and having a get on them. Otherwise...
- Running away? Slow helps taking less attacks, but Haste double your speed, so in most cases you can be out of range anyways.
- Hitting more? With Haste's improved movement, there is a good chance you can find somewhere lurky enough to conceal yourself then Hide as a bonus action before popping out for a shot. Or just use Mage Hand after level 13.

Yeah. For a solo, unless you want to play a kamikaze Rogue that likes nothing else than rushing and staying in the middle of enemy lines, I see no good reason not to caste Haste. ;)

It's important to note that Haste will backfire insanely if you lose your concentration or get dispelled, because you will just sit there for one turn doing nothing.
Sure, it has been noted already by some including me.
For the case suggested by JellyPooga though, the risk should be minimal since we are talking about someone using ranged attacks (and which can Hide as a bonus action when necessary/possible). So risk should stay at a minimum. ;)

So what you have to ask yourself is what is going to change the outcome more, a level 3 spell applied tactically, with potential disadvantage on save, or a bluntly applied level 6, 7, 8 or 9 spell.

My vote is that the raw power of the high level spells edges it.

Personally I would have preferred it if the AT could have got the spell boosts at lower levels so you could mix and match AT and caster to determine the mix of rogue and magic you wanted in your character.
It's nicely formulated in the first paragraph. ;)
The difference between us is that I wouldn't dare make a "in the void" conclusion like you did. ^^ For me it is really up to each situation.
If there is a significant possibility for the Rogue to enable Magical Ambush and apply a sound tactic, then he goes for it.
When it is too risky or complex to set up for whatever reason, let your main caster do his/her magic. You do blow away a probably higher level spell to ensure you win this encounter. It's one you won't have to the next...
But hey, if you think this will be the biggest fight of the day, why be conservative indeed? ;)

It's always a matter of resource management in the end.
Also, as I said above, while I certainly would have loved as much as you getting Magical Ambush earlier, as long as your favored tactic does not require a spell higher than 3rd level, you can get more uses at the same level as a pure Rogue.
Agreed it's late though, but well... You have always the option of playing a Wild Magic Sorcerer with two levels of Diviner Wizard and the Lucky feat also. XD

JellyPooga

2016-12-09, 11:19 AM

For the case suggested by JellyPooga though, the risk should be minimal since we are talking about someone using ranged attacks (and which can Hide as a bonus action when necessary/possible). So risk should stay at a minimum. ;)

In the interest of fair debate, I should note that I brought up Haste specifically in reference to a melee build :smallwink: Having said that, the defensive bonus granted by Haste is definitely a contributing factor to not needing to worry about losing it, so much; a melee AT can be pretty secure with regards to Concentration because they rock some of the best defenses in the game; high AC, likely Disadvantage to attack them (from a number of potential sources) and (effectively) a miss chance if they have Mirror Image. Add Evasion for functional immunity to concentration checks from AoE and Uncanny Dodge to reduce the impact of an attack that does actually hit and you don't need a good Con Save to pass those checks.

Citan

2016-12-09, 11:32 AM

In the interest of fair debate, I should note that I brought up Haste specifically in reference to a melee build :smallwink: Having said that, the defensive bonus granted by Haste is definitely a contributing factor to not needing to worry about losing it, so much; a melee AT can be pretty secure with regards to Concentration because they rock some of the best defenses in the game; high AC, likely Disadvantage to attack them (from a number of potential sources) and (effectively) a miss chance if they have Mirror Image. Add Evasion for functional immunity to concentration checks from AoE and Uncanny Dodge to reduce the impact of an attack that does actually hit and you don't need a good Con Save to pass those checks.
Certainly true up to a point.
The point being that even a Rogue has limits.
Shield is a reaction.
Uncanny Dodge is a reaction.
Mirror Image will last a dozen attacks at best.

In my opinion, the Rogue's best defense is using his mind to avoid situations where he is exposed to more than 1-2 attacks per round in the first place. ;)
Otherwise, you either have to blow too many resources just for the sake of being borderline reckless, or you will certainly suffer enough blows to break the concentration in most cases. All the more considering how few spell slots At gets. ;)

Mirror Image especially should be a last-resort resource for what you guess is the big fight of the day. Shield should be a "oh ****" panic button for cases where you thought you were safe but are in fact in danger for whatever reason (clever trap, pincer attack, restrained because of a spell...).
In short, better play like you don't have them, so you are sure that when you use them, it really is a good moment. XD

AT has an even better "peak defense" than a Paladin (thanks to Shield) or Fighter (thanks to Uncanny Dodge + Evasion), but that is only this: a peak defense.
Beyond that, AT has great resilience against 1-2 attacks per round, but no more.

Said otherwise, while 5e Rogue feels much less squishy than in 4e, he still needs to use his brain. XD
And as soon as you use your brain, any class is awesome in the first place. ;)

EDIT: My bad, I forgot that at (very?) high levels, they get some features imposing disadvantage to others. Don't recall what though. It sure does much for general resilience. ;)

MrStabby

2016-12-09, 11:39 AM

It's nicely formulated in the first paragraph. ;)
The difference between us is that I wouldn't dare make a "in the void" conclusion like you did. ^^ For me it is really up to each situation.

Normally I would agree that circumstance has to be taken into account when comparing two choices, however here i think that we can be a bit more general. We are not comparing one single high level spell to the abilities of an arcane trickster. We are comparing the player's choice of spell from a pretty wide selection; if the caster is wise and picks diverse spells that span a number of situations they should have something that is both powerful and suited to the combat at hand.

MinotaurWarrior

2016-12-09, 01:24 PM

That isn't arguable; that's a fact (and it's levels 1-8, not 3-8). AT has virtually nothing bar MHL and Cunning Action, with regards to the "Arcane" and "Trickster" roles, on the Bard before he gets Magical Ambush at 9th.
At level 1, the bard is worse at stealth, and the rogue isn't a spellcaster, so they're just doing different things.

At level 3-8, the AT literally has nothing but those two features over the bard when it comes to this role. I disagree though that the weight of those features is "inarguable." I especially anticipate that you're undervaluing MHL, since you sound like someone who likes to solve every problem by charging in headfirst (a perfectly acceptable playstyle, btw, just not the one that gets the most out of MHL)

I agree, he is doing something fundamentally different but it shouldn't, generally, be trying to compete by using comparatively sub-par spells like Hypnotic Pattern, when an actual spellcaster has the capability to fill that role better with higher level spells/slots.

Sure an AT can pick up a couple of decent "Save or X" spells to use with Magical Ambush, like the ones you suggest, but focusing on them is a way to be a base-line Rogue with a bunch of largely irrelevant or ineffectual spells. Bear in mind that as an AT, you probably aren't sporting a truly competitive Intelligence to get your Spell Save DC's high enough to be that reliable, even with the Disadvantage. The primary focus of an AT should be bolstering his strengths as a Rogue; Invisibility, Haste, Silent/Major Image and other spells that don't rely on a decent casting stat, to take the onus off of the full-casters to provide them for you.

Yes, Magical Ambush can be good in the right scenario, but only when those low-level spells are actually relevant...which isn't often given the relative CR of the critters you'll be facing with those spells:
- Hold Person, for example, is a great spell at level 3 when full-casters get it, it's still pretty decent at level 7 when an AT gets it and it'll remain relevant at level 9 because of Magical Ambush. By the time you're level 13 and have just got hold of level 3 spells though, that Hold Person (even with the Disadvantage from MA) just isn't cutting the mustard against the likes of an Archmage (CR:12, +6 Wis Save with Advantage vs. spells, access to Counterspell), which is the highest CR humanoid in the MM.
- Hypnotic Pattern is great against low CR critters, making it an excellent spell at level 5 (when a full caster gets it) and it's still got it's uses at level 10, but by level 13 when AT gets it, it's just not worth the effort; just flicking through the MM it's immediately apparent that it's almost completely ineffective against Undead and Constructs, Devils all have Magic Resistance, Drow have Fey Ancestry, Genies all have high Wis Saves...the list goes on and most Boss or Lieutenant creatures you'll be facing at level 13+ will have Legendary Resistance which renders Magical Ambush largely irrelevant.

Magical Ambush is a nice feature to compensate the fact that your Int is probably lower than is needed to get any of your spells to stick at those higher levels, don't get me wrong, but it's a situational crutch at best and at worst it's a glorified ribbon.

You're just wrong on all your talk of low int here (OP rolled such that they have 2 18s) and are being needlessly prescriptive.

Disadvantage takes a 1/20 chance to pass a save and turns it into 1/400, a 2/20 chance into 1/100, a 3/20 chance into 2.25%, a 4/20 into 4% and it's only after that that you're as likely to succeed as if the monster needed a 20 (the best bards and wizards can do). And no other class can guarantee an action in surprise quite as well as a rogue.

A level 20 AT with the right languages can cast suggestion on a CR 23 Kraken and have a 84% chance of success. You're guaranteed the hide check (even with active perception), and can win the fight in round 0. Allowing re-hiding, the AT has a >97% chance of winning the fight by round 1. There are monsters and encounters like this at every level.

Yes, legendary resistance eats up spells. That's even more true for full casters who usually have to wait for round 1 to cast a spell, and (barring the sorc) don't have a reliable source of disadvantage. Same thing for magic resistance (AT's have a 82% chance to suggest a pit fiend by end of round 1, compared to a wizard's 12% of getting off any will-based spell). Are there encounters where I wont want to use magical ambush? Yes, of course. Tricks are always situational. Against a Lich (Undead Immunities, Legendary resistance) I'm probably just using MHL a bit and then doing the same haste tactic. Though, in a pinch I can try to throw out something like a banishment or a resilient sphere if the situation demands it (sorc burned through the lich's LR, we got burned with his damage spells).

I absolutely agree. Leave the "Save or X" stuff to the real spellcasters; focus on the self buffs and other spells that complement your Roguishness.

Haste and shield don't compliment roguishness. They multiply DPR and expected rounds of survival - the same thing they do on EK's.

Spells like invisibility compliment roguishness (and I think we're both 100% agreed on why you should take them)

Spells like suggestion, hypnotic pattern, confusion, et cetera are complimented by roguishness.

I mean, you're basically suggesting to treat all of the class features as ribbons, and treat the AT like an unnamed 1/3 spellcaster.

Ravinsild

2016-12-09, 01:45 PM

Specter

2016-12-09, 01:57 PM

Well. Video games have apparently ruined how Rogues are supposed to be played in my mind.

Reading this thread I've learned a lot. I thought you were supposed to stealth up behind a monster then just stab it with both knives until it dies. Rogues in WoW and Elder Scrolls Online and stuff usually just stunlock and burst...so I assumed that's how D&D Rogues were played.

Creep up behind a dude then stab him til he goes down then stealth away. Are Rogues not played like that? If you did play like that would you die very easily?

You can easily do that. Rogue's main category is Striker, meaning they deal great damage but don't want to stand in the way of damage, unlike Barbarians and such. Using Cunning Action, you can approach, attack and evade again, and at range bad guys have to chase you. But they can fill many other categories, like expert trapbreakers, infiltrators, sweet-talkers, investigators and such.

Asmotherion

2016-12-09, 02:07 PM

I said prepare or learn because I was talking about casters in general, mind you. Your point is as stupid for Cleric as it would be for Sorcerers, Bards, Wizards or Druid (because what is the point of knowing that many spells that can answer different situations if you put 90% of them aside just because they all require concentration?). If you go through that logic, why would learning casters even bother learning anything else than one unique Concentration spell? :smallbiggrin:

That is the definition of one-trick pony.

We clearly have a different view of what optimization is, especially party optimization... Let's just congrat each other that we don't play together... :smalltongue:

True enough your first paragraph, your tactic makes you much less dependant on either rightly anticipating enemy behaviour or relying on teamwork (especially if the DM is lenient enough to accept a Ready such as "as soon as this creature does anything I attack it" XD) ;)
And the "always succeed" of buff compared to "will it work" of debuff is always weighing significantly.
For a party of at least 3 people, I would probably always weigh on Magical Ambushed Slow though unless I know for sure the creatures are likely to pass the save nevertheless.

For a solo though... I was thinking about a situation where Slow would be the best choice, but I find only very narrow cornercases such as knowing you will face mainly casters and having a get on them. Otherwise...
- Running away? Slow helps taking less attacks, but Haste double your speed, so in most cases you can be out of range anyways.
- Hitting more? With Haste's improved movement, there is a good chance you can find somewhere lurky enough to conceal yourself then Hide as a bonus action before popping out for a shot. Or just use Mage Hand after level 13.

Yeah. For a solo, unless you want to play a kamikaze Rogue that likes nothing else than rushing and staying in the middle of enemy lines, I see no good reason not to caste Haste. ;)

Sure, it has been noted already by some including me.
For the case suggested by JellyPooga though, the risk should be minimal since we are talking about someone using ranged attacks (and which can Hide as a bonus action when necessary/possible). So risk should stay at a minimum. ;)

It's nicely formulated in the first paragraph. ;)
The difference between us is that I wouldn't dare make a "in the void" conclusion like you did. ^^ For me it is really up to each situation.
If there is a significant possibility for the Rogue to enable Magical Ambush and apply a sound tactic, then he goes for it.
When it is too risky or complex to set up for whatever reason, let your main caster do his/her magic. You do blow away a probably higher level spell to ensure you win this encounter. It's one you won't have to the next...
But hey, if you think this will be the biggest fight of the day, why be conservative indeed? ;)

It's always a matter of resource management in the end.
Also, as I said above, while I certainly would have loved as much as you getting Magical Ambush earlier, as long as your favored tactic does not require a spell higher than 3rd level, you can get more uses at the same level as a pure Rogue.
Agreed it's late though, but well... You have always the option of playing a Wild Magic Sorcerer with two levels of Diviner Wizard and the Lucky feat also. XD

As a matter of fact I am a firm believer that:
A) Spellcasters with a limited "spells known" list should never have more than 2, maximum 3 Concentration spells in their list. This number is acceptable for versality; anything more than that is a waste of more usefull spells.
B) In the same way, Prepared Spellcasters should not prepare more than a couple spells that require concentration.

I can agree that I am exagerating on my claim about Bless/Spirit Guardian, in that being a necesseraly bad option, however I do believe it is better to have only one of them prepared.

However I think we are missing the point here: Using an agressive spell is meant to be the job of a Full-caster. Mostly because of upcasting and the fact that the aggresive spells 1/3 Caster can get, at the level they get them, do much less damage than if they attack with their class mechanic.

Let's look at some examples:

Lv3 You get your first spells. Let's look at some options:
Magic Missile: 3d4+3. Average 10
Chromatic Orb: 3d8. Average 13
Burning Hands: 3d6. Average 10

Let's compare it with Lv3 Sneak attack. 2d6+weapon die+Dex Modifier. Assuming the weapon die a d6, and a logical Dexterity Bonus of +3 we are looking at 13 damage, without burning a spellslot.

Now let's go to level 8. At level 7 you get a new spell slot level, but only by level 8 can you get a new offencive spell. I'll also upcast the previous possible options:
Magic Missile: 4d4+4. Average 14
Chromatic Orb: 4d8. Average 18
Burning Hands: 4d6. Average 14
Scorching Ray: 6d6. Average 21
(I put scorching ray as it's the highest damaging spell so far. Feel free to include other spells in the equation)

Again, let's compare it with Lv8 Sneak attack. 4d6+weapon die+Dex Modifier. Assuming the weapon die a d6, and a logical Dexterity Bonus of +4 we are looking at 21 damage, without burning a spellslot. Also, at this level, it's logical to apply Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade (Which I included in my suggested build). +1d8, for a total 25 Average Damage.

Level 14. Again, at level 13 you get a new spell slot level, but only by level 14 can you get a new offencive spell. I'll also upcast the previous possible options:
Magic Missile: 5d4+5. Average 17
Chromatic Orb: 5d8. Average 22
Burning Hands: 5d6. Average 17
Scorching Ray: 8d6. Average 30
Fireball: 8d6. Average 30
Tidal Wave: 4d8. Average 18

Compared with Lv14 Sneak attack: 7d6+weapon die+Dex Modifier. Assuming the weapon die a d6, and a logical Dexterity Bonus of +5 by now we are looking at 33 damage, without burning a spellslot. Also, at this level, it's logical to apply Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade. +2d8, for a total 42 Average Damage.

Finally, at level 20; wile at level 19 you can get Phantasmal Killer, for simplicity sake, I went directly to lv20
Magic Missile: 6d4+6. Average 21
Chromatic Orb: 6d8. Average 27
Burning Hands: 6d6. Average 21
Scorching Ray: 10d6. Average 39
Fireball: 9d6. Average 33
Phantasmal Killer: 4d10. Average 22
Storm Sphere: 6d6. Average 21
Vitriolic Sphere: 15d4. Average 37
Wall of Fire: 5d8. Average 22

Lv 20 Sneak Attack Deals 10d6+weapon die+Dex Modifier. Average 41. Add SCAG dammage of +3d6, for a total of 51 average damage. And without burning any resources.

Also, for all the above, I calculated as if all saves were failer, all attack rolls hit and in general a perfect case scenario that is non aplicable in an actual game.

Sure, some of the spells mentioned here are AOEs, and I'm only analysing single target damage. But, wile getting an ocasional AOE is not a bad thing, you don't have enough resources (spell slots) to make it your main strategy. Why not focus on delivering that Sneak attack, and use your magic for defensive/utility purposes, rather than try to pretend being a wizard, have lesser defances, making your character uneccesseraly MAD, and still doing less damage than you could with your Sneak Attack.

JellyPooga

2016-12-09, 02:11 PM

I especially anticipate that you're undervaluing MHL
...and I expect you might overvalue it :smallwink:

In all seriousness, MHL is a great feature, but also a fairly limited one for all that. Short duration, Verbal component, limited range...there's not a lot you can do with it that you couldn't do "the old fashioned way".

You're just wrong on all your talk of low int here (OP rolled such that they have 2 18s) and are being needlessly prescriptive.

I was talking in generalisations, but even with those rolls, there's absolutely no requirement for that second 17 to go in Int. Taking Con 18 would be just as valid, not only for the HP and Saves against some of the more lethal effects that get bandied around, but also to reduce the risk of failing concentration checks. AT's, like EK's have no requirement to take high Int (hell, not even Wizards do...but that's another argument) and plenty of incentive to keep it moderate to low in favour of other stats.

A level 20 AT with the right languages can cast suggestion on a CR 23 Kraken and have a 84% chance of success. You're guaranteed the hide check (even with active perception), and can win the fight in round 0. Allowing re-hiding, the AT has a >97% chance of winning the fight by round 1. There are monsters and encounters like this at every level.

What, exactly, are you going to Suggest to the Kraken that it would consider to be a "reasonable" course of action? That's ignoring the fact that I dispute the possibility of being able to use Suggestion from hiding; it's pretty hard to remain hidden while you're talking to them from no more than 30ft away (incidentally, the range on its tentacles...level 20 Rogue or no, it's pretty hard to give orders, unseen, from within arms reach of someone, giant squiddly beastie from the deep or no).

Haste and shield don't compliment roguishness. They multiply DPR and expected rounds of survival - the same thing they do on EK's.

AT, EK...Haste and Shield are solid spells for anyone, really. As mentioned earlier, Rogues squeeze a little more out of Haste than do most others due to the ability to double up their massive single target damage and Shield for a Class that can't use a physical shield (like EK) is a lifesaver. In addition, for a Class that prides itself on mobility, double movement is a huge boon. Haste absolutely complements primary Rogue features.

Spells like suggestion, hypnotic pattern, confusion, et cetera are complimented by roguishness.

How so? You've got it backwards; AT features should support Rogue features, not the other way around. Suggestion is really only as good as the Charisma behind it (that "reasonable request" rears its head again). Hypnotic Pattern is made better by Magical Ambush, yes, but it does give the game away somewhat to have a big floaty cube o' colour giving away that you're present. Confusion is...just a bad spell; for a 4th level spell it has a pretty weak AoE and far too uncertain an outcome to be anywhere near reliable (that 1-in-5 chance of doing absolutely nothing to a given target each round is...not good). Sure it's great for immobilizing big mobs of mooks and it's entertaining watching them stab one another while you stay hidden, but it's hardly a "power play".

I mean, you're basically suggesting to treat all of the class features as ribbons, and treat the AT like an unnamed 1/3 spellcaster.

No, I'm suggesting that trying to use Magical Ambush and AT Spellcasting to do things that are better suited to a full spellcaster is ignoring your primary Class Features and trying to do something you're not that good at. Rogues have good single target damage, excellent skills and can hide as a bonus action; chucking around Confusion and Hypnotic Pattern don't really improve those primary Class Features.

Ravinsild

2016-12-09, 02:11 PM

You can easily do that. Rogue's main category is Striker, meaning they deal great damage but don't want to stand in the way of damage, unlike Barbarians and such. Using Cunning Action, you can approach, attack and evade again, and at range bad guys have to chase you. But they can fill many other categories, like expert trapbreakers, infiltrators, sweet-talkers, investigators and such.

I assume Arcane Tricksters are not for murder-hobos like me? I just wanted to play a Rogue that does the killing the most fast. :P A super master Assassin if you will.

Citan

2016-12-09, 03:33 PM

As a matter of fact I am a firm believer that:
A) Spellcasters with a limited "spells known" list should never have more than 2, maximum 3 Concentration spells in their list. This number is acceptable for versality; anything more than that is a waste of more usefull spells.
B) In the same way, Prepared Spellcasters should not prepare more than a couple spells that require concentration.

I can agree that I am exagerating on my claim about Bless/Spirit Guardian, in that being a necesseraly bad option, however I do believe it is better to have only one of them prepared.

However I think we are missing the point here: Using an agressive spell is meant to be the job of a Full-caster. Mostly because of upcasting and the fact that the aggresive spells 1/3 Caster can get, at the level they get them, do much less damage than if they attack with their class mechanic.

Let's look at some examples:
{stripped}

Sure, some of the spells mentioned here are AOEs, and I'm only analysing single target damage. But, wile getting an ocasional AOE is not a bad thing, you don't have enough resources (spell slots) to make it your main strategy. Why not focus on delivering that Sneak attack, and use your magic for defensive/utility purposes, rather than try to pretend being a wizard, have lesser defances, making your character uneccesseraly MAD, and still doing less damage than you could with your Sneak Attack.
Well, I indeed agreed that someone at least missed the point: namely you.
You tried to undermine other's opinions by deforming them.

1.Nobody ever said that spellcasting should be the sole strategy of a Rogue. Obviously he is still a martial caster. Whatever spell you choose, it will always be just a few turns for the whole day in the end...
The point IS about making relevant spell choices.
Which brings me to...

2. You made comparison solely between single-target damage spells and Sneak Attack. Congrats: you just pointed out something that absolutely everyone agrees on: Sneak Attack is the best a Rogue has to offer to damage single-targets.
Taking single-target damage attack ranged spell or cantrip is as pointless for an AT as it would for a Dex-based EK, since in both cases the usual weapon attacks will end with at least as good damage, or more.

"Strangely" though, you totally put aside what has been at the core of discussion: AOE spells, with a stress on debuff/illusions. Which are the big strength of an AT compared to other casters.

3. I'll try one last time for you and others. The point is not that a caster could usually do as well or better, because on one side you will usually want to prepare Magical Ambush, whereas the other can just cast as often as needed.
The point is that, having someone else than your usual caster cast a spell that you need right now makes a difference.
First because it's a way to keep your pal's Concentration free (to note, you can usually keep concentration better as well barring Sorcerer, because you are more mobile, more evasive, you can halve damage and you can juste hide without having to use your action on that).

Second because, even without Magical Ambush, making either the Rogue or a Wizard/Sorcerer/Warlock casting Fireball/Slow/whatever can mean several turns of difference, turns in which the targeted enemies will have another chance to act. When you have to cast a spell RIGHT NOW / ASAP, isn't it obvious that the first one having a chance should take the responsibility? Even without Magical Ambush, Rogue can still get a very competitive DC after all.

I assume Arcane Tricksters are not for murder-hobos like me? I just wanted to play a Rogue that does the killing the most fast. :P A super master Assassin if you will.
But sure you can, that is the beauty of it. ;) "Stupid" Trickster is as easy to build as potentially as fun to play as "Genius" Trickster.
Just see the first posts to pick your spells, it's in fact easier because you will usually blow everything on the few following select spells:
1st level Shield
2nd level Mirror Image + Blur (stack them before you get Haste)
3rd level Haste.
4th level Greater Invisibility (if concentration) or... Not sure in fact XD

Because you pick only non-INT dependent spells, you can happily hard dump INT.
Max your Dexterity AND your Constitution, or just max your Dexterity, take Warcaster and a bunch of other feats (for you, it would probably be Alert, Mage Slayer, Skulker) and slice throats or pierce brains away! o/

(By the way, I did not forget you ^^. Just came back from work though, preparing dinner right now and it's pretty late already so chances are it will be for tomorrow. Sorry).

Asmotherion

2016-12-10, 01:02 AM

Well, I indeed agreed that someone at least missed the point: namely you.
You tried to undermine other's opinions by deforming them.

1.Nobody ever said that spellcasting should be the sole strategy of a Rogue. Obviously he is still a martial caster. Whatever spell you choose, it will always be just a few turns for the whole day in the end...
The point IS about making relevant spell choices.
Which brings me to...

2. You made comparison solely between single-target damage spells and Sneak Attack. Congrats: you just pointed out something that absolutely everyone agrees on: Sneak Attack is the best a Rogue has to offer to damage single-targets.
Taking single-target damage attack ranged spell or cantrip is as pointless for an AT as it would for a Dex-based EK, since in both cases the usual weapon attacks will end with at least as good damage, or more.

"Strangely" though, you totally put aside what has been at the core of discussion: AOE spells, with a stress on debuff/illusions. Which are the big strength of an AT compared to other casters.

3. I'll try one last time for you and others. The point is not that a caster could usually do as well or better, because on one side you will usually want to prepare Magical Ambush, whereas the other can just cast as often as needed.
The point is that, having someone else than your usual caster cast a spell that you need right now makes a difference.
First because it's a way to keep your pal's Concentration free (to note, you can usually keep concentration better as well barring Sorcerer, because you are more mobile, more evasive, you can halve damage and you can juste hide without having to use your action on that).

Second because, even without Magical Ambush, making either the Rogue or a Wizard/Sorcerer/Warlock casting Fireball/Slow/whatever can mean several turns of difference, turns in which the targeted enemies will have another chance to act. When you have to cast a spell RIGHT NOW / ASAP, isn't it obvious that the first one having a chance should take the responsibility? Even without Magical Ambush, Rogue can still get a very competitive DC after all.

But sure you can, that is the beauty of it. ;) "Stupid" Trickster is as easy to build as potentially as fun to play as "Genius" Trickster.
Just see the first posts to pick your spells, it's in fact easier because you will usually blow everything on the few following select spells:
1st level Shield
2nd level Mirror Image + Blur (stack them before you get Haste)
3rd level Haste.
4th level Greater Invisibility (if concentration) or... Not sure in fact XD

Because you pick only non-INT dependent spells, you can happily hard dump INT.
Max your Dexterity AND your Constitution, or just max your Dexterity, take Warcaster and a bunch of other feats (for you, it would probably be Alert, Mage Slayer, Skulker) and slice throats or pierce brains away! o/

(By the way, I did not forget you ^^. Just came back from work though, preparing dinner right now and it's pretty late already so chances are it will be for tomorrow. Sorry).

So, basically, in the end you still suggest the same things I do... And I agree with your first and 3rd point... That's actually what I have been saying all along. I don't get it. Not sure if you're trolling or if we've been focusing too much on diferent aspects of the same thing to see we were talking about the same thing?

The only thing I disagree with though is that, wile he gets a good DC, the damage would be irelevant at the level he gets access to fireball (not always maybe, but most of the time). Which brings me to my point, that he should focus on buff/debuff... and ilusions, as you put it.

Citan

2016-12-10, 04:15 AM

So, basically, in the end you still suggest the same things I do... And I agree with your first and 3rd point... That's actually what I have been saying all along. I don't get it. Not sure if you're trolling or if we've been focusing too much on diferent aspects of the same thing to see we were talking about the same thing?

The only thing I disagree with though is that, wile he gets a good DC, the damage would be irelevant at the level he gets access to fireball (not always maybe, but most of the time). Which brings me to my point, that he should focus on buff/debuff... and ilusions, as you put it.
You really don't understand.

Contrarily to you, I DON'T IMPOSE MY VIEW TO OTHER PLAYERS.
Someone just want to focus on the "stabbing" aspect of a Rogue, albeit on an Arcane Trickster archetype? Who would I be to tell him something like "it's undermining" when it is not?
My priority is not telling anyone "that is how you should play". That is telling "if you want to use that playstyle, this is probably the best way to build".

I prefer playing the "genius" side because in my taste, doing otherwise is kinda wasting the features. But I recognize this is a personal opinion.

Whereas many people in this thread and others say, in a nutshell, "dumping INT and taking only buffs is the only right way to optimize". Which is as stupid as it is wrong.

Both ways of playing are equally good in themselves and as easy to build. After that, it is just a question of taste and complementing with your party.

Obviously if you are the only martial with 3-4 casters, it would be better to focus on defense because you will be the only frontliner.

If there is no caster with some AOE though, you may make the difference when needed because you got Burning Hands / Shatter / Fireball up your sleeves. Or even if there is someone else, you may just make the difference because a swarm of mooks is coming dangerously close, and all your friends will be acting after them, so killing as many as possible now is a much better help than killing one, letting them all act against your party, then have your caster unleash a powerful AOE. Or soften them with one AOE so that your caster friend that plays after can finish them off with a 3rd or 4th level slot instead of having to blow a precious 6th/7th level slot.

If there is nobody with some control, a well-placed Fog Cloud, tactical Darkness on a stone -which can be held by an Owl familiar- and later a big Slow can save the day. Or if there is actually a caster such as a Sorcerer or Warlock, albeit he is already concentrating on a Haste, a Polymorph or a Greater Invisibility.

And if the party is varied enough in composition to have all the usual spells at least "learned once", then you can just pick up the combination of spells you want, because there will always be a chance to use it efficiently, whether you are the only one knowing them or not.

My personal view on spell choice is that Shield, (Find Familiar,) (Burning Hands) Fog Cloud and Mirror Image are the only ones any Arcane Trickster should know, whether low or high INT (spells between () learnt ASAP at first, then either kept or swapped at higher level depending the play style).

Beyond that... (Sleep), (Color Spray), (Grease), (Silent Image), Hold Person, Fog Cloud, Shatter, Blur, Darkness, Invisibility, Blindness, Enlarge, Phantasmal Force, Web, Bestow Curse, Fireball, Fly, Haste, Hypnotic Pattern, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Lightning Bolt, Phantom Steed, Slow, Sleet Storm, Stinking Cloud, Greater Invisibility and Polymorph are (more or less) my baseline spelllist for learning new Rogue spells.
Although I usually take Ritual Caster: Wizard anyways so it reduces the need quite a bit.

Asmotherion

2016-12-10, 06:12 AM

You really don't understand.

Contrarily to you, I DON'T IMPOSE MY VIEW TO OTHER PLAYERS.
Someone just want to focus on the "stabbing" aspect of a Rogue, albeit on an Arcane Trickster archetype? Who would I be to tell him something like "it's undermining" when it is not?
My priority is not telling anyone "that is how you should play". That is telling "if you want to use that playstyle, this is probably the best way to build".

I prefer playing the "genius" side because in my taste, doing otherwise is kinda wasting the features. But I recognize this is a personal opinion.

Whereas many people in this thread and others say, in a nutshell, "dumping INT and taking only buffs is the only right way to optimize". Which is as stupid as it is wrong.

Both ways of playing are equally good in themselves and as easy to build. After that, it is just a question of taste and complementing with your party.

Obviously if you are the only martial with 3-4 casters, it would be better to focus on defense because you will be the only frontliner.

If there is no caster with some AOE though, you may make the difference when needed because you got Burning Hands / Shatter / Fireball up your sleeves. Or even if there is someone else, you may just make the difference because a swarm of mooks is coming dangerously close, and all your friends will be acting after them, so killing as many as possible now is a much better help than killing one, letting them all act against your party, then have your caster unleash a powerful AOE. Or soften them with one AOE so that your caster friend that plays after can finish them off with a 3rd or 4th level slot instead of having to blow a precious 6th/7th level slot.

If there is nobody with some control, a well-placed Fog Cloud, tactical Darkness on a stone -which can be held by an Owl familiar- and later a big Slow can save the day. Or if there is actually a caster such as a Sorcerer or Warlock, albeit he is already concentrating on a Haste, a Polymorph or a Greater Invisibility.

And if the party is varied enough in composition to have all the usual spells at least "learned once", then you can just pick up the combination of spells you want, because there will always be a chance to use it efficiently, whether you are the only one knowing them or not.

My personal view on spell choice is that Shield, (Find Familiar,) (Burning Hands) Fog Cloud and Mirror Image are the only ones any Arcane Trickster should know, whether low or high INT (spells between () learnt ASAP at first, then either kept or swapped at higher level depending the play style).

Beyond that... (Sleep), (Color Spray), (Grease), (Silent Image), Hold Person, Fog Cloud, Shatter, Blur, Darkness, Invisibility, Blindness, Enlarge, Phantasmal Force, Web, Bestow Curse, Fireball, Fly, Haste, Hypnotic Pattern, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Lightning Bolt, Phantom Steed, Slow, Sleet Storm, Stinking Cloud, Greater Invisibility and Polymorph are (more or less) my baseline spelllist for learning new Rogue spells.
Although I usually take Ritual Caster: Wizard anyways so it reduces the need quite a bit.

Using Caps Lock yelling and calling other's arguements stupid is rude and offensive. Please refrain from such behavior. It's not contributing to an otherwise interesting debate.

I can respect your arguement. However, I have my own views on the subject, and thus am debating with you about them. If that came as absolute, I apologise, it was not the intention. I shall rephrase my statements as "In my experiance, the most effective way to play an Arcane Trickster, thus optimising him is the one I describe".

Now, the whole point of dumping Int is in favor of a higher Con. After all, as a melee caster, the AT needs to be able to handle a couple of hits. Even if you don't dump it, I think you should at least not prioritise it, or feel inadequete if you can't have it go higher. Also, my view on optimising an AT who would be able to fullfill the role of a blaster as well would still be to not focus on INT and instead dip 2-3 levels of Warlock (Focus on CHA) for Eldritch Blast. I have actually played said character, and had a... blast, doing so :)

Specter

2016-12-10, 07:50 AM

Innocent_bystan

2016-12-10, 07:58 AM

If multiclassing and SCAG are viable options, then I'd recommend 2 or 3 levels in Wizard as a bladesinger. +AC, rituals, more spell slots, better spell selection, more cantrips, more movement speed. It's bloody amazing for a melee rogue.

JellyPooga

2016-12-10, 08:18 AM

Unlike EKs, ATs should have a hard time dumping INT. Why? Because both the Illusion and Enchantment schools rely heavily on saves, attacks or other ways to use your casting stat. Even Minor Illusion's DC to investigate relies on INT, as do Silent Image, Tasha's, Hold Person, Suggestion, Fear and so on. Sure a specific spell list could be made with some out-of-school spells, but you get only four of those and life is too short.

And unlike the EK with Eldritch Strike, the AT that hides can give disadvantage to as many enemies as his spell can hit, and it would be a shame not to have at least 14-16 INT to profit the most from it.

I agree to an extent; ATs have more incentive to proc for that higher Int, but if focusing on buffs and non-Int based spells (which with your limited spells known is easy to do), an AT can even hard-dump Int as much as any Barbarian. Yes, you miss out on the boons of Magical Ambush by not taking a single "save or X" spell, but grabbing more non-combat spells in their place is definitely a viable, if niche, route to take.

On a related note...does it bug anyone else that Enchantment and Illusion spells really don't suit Rogues all that much. I thought that was the Bards area of expertise. As a Rogue, I'm usually more interested in Divinations (superior scouting, Locate Loot Object), Abjurations (Alarm, Arcane Lock, Dispel Magic, Nondetection, Freedom of Movement) and Transmutations (Feather Fall, Jump, Alter Self, Darkvision, Levitate, Gaseous Form, Haste, Polymorph).

Talionis

2016-12-11, 10:34 PM

To answer the OP, I agree that Multiclassing can be good for a AT.

Seven levels of Eldritch Knight adds a lot of options since being able to cantrip and then attack works very well with Sneak Attack since you get most of your attack benefit in one swing. It also can add Armor and Sheilds.

Multiclassing any amount of Full Caster should be looked at as you are getting more cantrips and higher level spell slots quicker.

While Wizard looks like the obvious choice for full caster dip, Cleric, Warlock, Sorcerer, etc aren't bad. Wisdom is a strong stat for a Rogue, so is Charisma.

In my opinion, it's probably written down some where else, Dexterity, Constitution,mane Wisdom are the three strong stats and Charisma, Strength, and Intelligence are the lower priority stats, probably in that order. Notice no class gets proficiency in saves from Two strong stats and two weak stats, they all are mixed, one strong stat and one weak stat. But poor Intelligence got the shortest of the straws. Very few skills that are important key off Intelligence. Very few Saves off Intelligence. Every party probably wants a character that has lots of Intelligence, but the Rogue doesn't have to be that guy. Not saying you dump Intelligence, you probably dump Strength, but I like to prioritize Wisdom and Charisma to keep me out of fights.

Tanarii

2016-12-11, 11:25 PM

I agree to an extent; ATs have more incentive to proc for that higher Int, but if focusing on buffs and non-Int based spells (which with your limited spells known is easy to do), an AT can even hard-dump Int as much as any Barbarian. Yes, you miss out on the boons of Magical Ambush by not taking a single "save or X" spell, but grabbing more non-combat spells in their place is definitely a viable, if niche, route to take.... assuming he also doesn't plan to be the party trap disarmer.

Not all rogues want that any more than all clerics want to be the party heal-bot. But those that do need Int to back up their Investigation, especially if the don't want to have to use their Expertise on it.

JellyPooga

2016-12-12, 07:12 AM

... assuming he also doesn't plan to be the party trap disarmer.

Not all rogues want that any more than all clerics want to be the party heal-bot. But those that do need Int to back up their Investigation, especially if the don't want to have to use their Expertise on it.

True. As you say, there's no more requirement for a Rogue to be the "traps guy" than there is for a Cleric to be the "heal-bot". I'm not saying an AT never needs Int, only that they don't require it.

Tanarii

2016-12-12, 08:40 AM

True. As you say, there's no more requirement for a Rogue to be the "traps guy" than there is for a Cleric to be the "heal-bot". I'm not saying an AT never needs Int, only that they don't require it.
Given they impose disadvantage on saving throws from hiding, this is especially true. How big a deal that is varies, but it means they can potentially get away with an Int 14 and still expect to stick spells.

Like the EK, they're definitely designed so if you want to, you can put your second stat in Int to start, then never raise it again, instead spending all your ASI on Feats. It means you'll won't be selecting attack roll spells ... But unlike the EK most ATs aren't going to take attack cantrips anyway.

I mostly fight the idea that AT should dump Int because lots of people do say an AT never needs Int. That's a stupid argument. A player can, by selecting from a minorly limited list of spells and restricting the PC to using the save ones from hiding, keep it a moderate score. Or they can, by selecting from a restricted list and not using save spells at all, dump it. That means they pay a heavier price than normal characters do for dumping Int.

Edit: I should have said "restricting the PC to using the save ones from hiding against targets likely to make their saves". Sometimes a save DC 1-3 pts lower that expected for that level is perfectly acceptable.

Finieous

2016-12-12, 09:54 AM

On a related note...does it bug anyone else that Enchantment and Illusion spells really don't suit Rogues all that much. I thought that was the Bards area of expertise. As a Rogue, I'm usually more interested in Divinations (superior scouting, Locate Loot Object), Abjurations (Alarm, Arcane Lock, Dispel Magic, Nondetection, Freedom of Movement) and Transmutations (Feather Fall, Jump, Alter Self, Darkvision, Levitate, Gaseous Form, Haste, Polymorph).

Yeah, I'd like to see an arcane thief subclass at some point.

MinotaurWarrior

2016-12-12, 11:11 AM

Sorry about the quote from days ago. Rose to the top of the page again.

...and I expect you might overvalue it :smallwink:

In all seriousness, MHL is a great feature, but also a fairly limited one for all that. Short duration, Verbal component, limited range...there's not a lot you can do with it that you couldn't do "the old fashioned way".

When you get it, you've got +9 to SoH if you care, and many enemies have +0 to perception. In an opposed check, such enemies have a <17% chance to succeed with no advantage / disadvantage. And then if they succeed, they don't find you, they just realize that an invisible hand is stealing their sheathed weapons. That 17% chance is better than a DC 14 spell save, and is often disabling enemies before rounds start. It's dramatically better than mundane Sleight of Hand because you don't need to be able to stealth right up to the target, and the risk of failure is dramatically lower.

As for the V components, iirc there's never a radius given for the audibility of verbal components, but I usually see it played as "muffled by the wooden door that separates combat encounters" and certainly low enough that you can cast it from out of range and then return in under a minute.

I was talking in generalisations, but even with those rolls, there's absolutely no requirement for that second 17 to go in Int. Taking Con 18 would be just as valid, not only for the HP and Saves against some of the more lethal effects that get bandied around, but also to reduce the risk of failing concentration checks. AT's, like EK's have no requirement to take high Int (hell, not even Wizards do...but that's another argument) and plenty of incentive to keep it moderate to low in favour of other stats.

Sure, that is an available build. But it's not the case, as you were claiming earlier, that an AT will not have high INT for high spell save DCs.

What, exactly, are you going to Suggest to the Kraken that it would consider to be a "reasonable" course of action?

"Aren't dragon turtles tastier than ships?"
"Do you really want all these splinters? There's a blue coastal city over there, full of tasty hobgoblins and made out of stones that will aid your digestion"
"Isn't it Kraken mating season? Aren't there at least eight ladies under the waves, just waiting to swoon in your arms"
"Wouldn't it be easier to go after a ship where nobody has magical weapons?"

Any number of things. Yes, suggestion is a DM dependent spell and doesn't work as well in white room scenarios as something like mirror image. But it works at most tables.

That's ignoring the fact that I dispute the possibility of being able to use Suggestion from hiding; it's pretty hard to remain hidden while you're talking to them from no more than 30ft away (incidentally, the range on its tentacles...level 20 Rogue or no, it's pretty hard to give orders, unseen, from within arms reach of someone, giant squiddly beastie from the deep or no).

That's why casting the spell breaks stealth. Casting any spell with verbal components inside a certain radius of a creature breaks stealth.

AT, EK...Haste and Shield are solid spells for anyone, really. As mentioned earlier, Rogues squeeze a little more out of Haste than do most others due to the ability to double up their massive single target damage and Shield for a Class that can't use a physical shield (like EK) is a lifesaver. In addition, for a Class that prides itself on mobility, double movement is a huge boon. Haste absolutely complements primary Rogue features.

Yeah, I'll give you that haste works differently for rogues than for EKs, but overall I stand more with "they're solid spells for anyone."

How so? You've got it backwards; AT features should support Rogue features, not the other way around.

Again, I just think you're being needlessly prescriptivistic here

Suggestion is really only as good as the Charisma behind it (that "reasonable request" rears its head again).

It's a mind control spell, so tables may vary, but RAW your upper case letter is wrong. It's situational and DM dependent though, I'll agree. But you should know your DM before making your character.

Hypnotic Pattern is made better by Magical Ambush, yes, but it does give the game away somewhat to have a big floaty cube o' colour giving away that you're present.

Yes, to the same degree a swordstrike wreathed in green flame shouts "this is an ambush."

Confusion is...just a bad spell; for a 4th level spell it has a pretty weak AoE and far too uncertain an outcome to be anywhere near reliable (that 1-in-5 chance of doing absolutely nothing to a given target each round is...not good). Sure it's great for immobilizing big mobs of mooks and it's entertaining watching them stab one another while you stay hidden, but it's hardly a "power play".

Confusion is neither a charm nor fear nor illusion effect, and can effect ~ 12 medium creatures (depending on the grid system you use). So, against an Iron Golem (Perception +0, Wis Save +0, Magic Resistance) I can use confusion from stealth to basically reduce it's effectiveness by ~80% (bad estimate), whereas I couldn't use pretty much any other mind effecting spell on it, and no single other spell was going to increase my party's DPR by a comparable amount. You can do something similar with undead, though high-CR undead all have good wis saves.

Sidenote: double-checking the wis saves made me realize that mummies and mummy lords are not immune to the curse of mummy rot. That's hilarious imo.

No, I'm suggesting that trying to use Magical Ambush and AT Spellcasting to do things that are better suited to a full spellcaster is ignoring your primary Class Features and trying to do something you're not that good at.

I've repeatedly shown you examples of how an AT using their MA feature is, in fact, very good. It relies on the stealth-related core class features to really amplify those enchantment / illusion spells, and in no way prevents you from doing the core rogue thing of shooting off sneak attacks during all regular rounds.

Rogues have good single target damage, excellent skills and can hide as a bonus action; chucking around Confusion and Hypnotic Pattern don't really improve those primary Class Features.

1) Those primary class features make those spells much better
2) Those spells actually do help the core class features. E.g. Hypnotic pattern lets you turn a group fight into a series of 1v1s, or temporarily disposes of a group you couldn't otherwise sneak past (e.g. you've made it through the dungeon and the fortress gate is now within sight - but between you and freedom, there's a watchtower overlooking the open grounds. Invisibility could save you but by hypnotizing them from 120ft away, you give your whole group time to cross the unobscured terrain and make it to freedom).