Monk UA Speculation

[jaappleton]

So, we've been getting new UA every Monday.

I'm just curious, what do you guys think we'll get for the Monk?

We already have the following:

Open Hand
Shadow
Four Elements
Long Death
Sun Soul

I was thinking about it... We've never gotten a Monk UA before. Never.

I'm not sure what to expect. What isn't covered? A quasi-healer, perhaps?

Monks can be 1/3rd spellcasters, like Eldritch Knights or Arcane Tricksters. That's emphasized in Four Elements & Sun Soul.

I'm not incredibly well versed in what's come prior to 5E, so as far as iconic prestige classes or anything, I defer to you guys.

What do you think is coming? There's been several hints at Eberron so far, if that helps speculation.

[jaappleton]

Drunken Master?
Tattooed Monk?
Kensai? (Or would this be Fighter?)
Occult Slayer?
Ronin? (We did just get Samurai Fighters)

[Llama513]

Hoping to get Drunken Master, and a 4 Elements monk fix, and possibly a psionic fist type thing, but that will probably end up with mystic

[Ravinsild]

Yeah a Diablo style semi-healer supporty fighter hybrid (Striker/Support) style may be neat. Also seems viable.

Otherwise I can't really think of anything that isn't already there. Unless there's like a total reverse to a Catholic Monk style Priest/Healer/Scribe Archetype...but I feel the D&D Monk is strictly Eastern influenced??

[Aett_Thorn]

Hoping for an official rework of the 4E Monk.

Other than that, Zen Archer, Drunken Master, or a druid-y type wandering monk would be great.

[Llama513]

Fist of the Forest, that would be awesome to see, I forgot about that one, druid monk mix

[Levistej]

Tattoed monk, drunken master and kensei are tropes that have been very popular and are by themselves quite iconic so I would take a wild bet that we will several of these archetypes come to light on monday.

Other than that I could see wotc taking a shot at something that channels energy in the mould of the Shadow sun ninja.

What I would love is some kind of tank monk without the edgy flavor of the long death subclass, way of the Iron fist or something like that. It could be quite simple, make monks reroll 1's and 2's on their unarmed damage, give them some way to reduce or resist melee damage or highten their AC if they decide to remain stationary, later on make their fists count as heavy weapons....

The monk chasis is really solid and therefore quite hard to mess up, lets hope we dont end up with another 4 elements fiasco.

[Regulas]

4E revision is obviously the main thing.

Strength variant, possibly focusing on grappling and or tanking. Being superhuman rather then refined skills so to speak.

[ad_hoc]

Well we already have a 4E fix in the Sun Soul.

I am expecting/hoping for more, each focusing on a specific aspect.

Sun Soul is basically the decent version of a 4E with Fangs of the Fire Snake, Burning Hands, and Fireball.

I'd like to see the other abilities improved.

[Llama513]

Well we already have a 4E fix in the Sun Soul.

I am expecting/hoping for more, each focusing on a specific aspect.

Sun Soul is basically the decent version of a 4E with Fangs of the Fire Snake, Burning Hands, and Fireball.

I'd like to see the other abilities improved.

It fixed one aspect of the class, the issue is if you want to play a monk that has access to all 4 elements you are out of luck, I see where you are coming from if you just wanted to play a fire monk, but if you want to play with more elements you have no option

[Specter]

10 to 1 that we get Tattooed Monk.

[MasterMercury]

An option focused on STR and grappling would be cool. Monks aren't necessarily speedy little people. Think sumo wrestler-esque?

[JellyPooga]

A misinterpreted Trappist Monk that has Thieves Tools proficiency and uses Ki to set mystic traps?

[DracoKnight]

A misinterpreted Trappist Monk that has Thieves Tools proficiency and uses Ki to set mystic traps?

That would be hilarious!

[Mongobear]

I really want to see a "Kensai" or other name for a Weapon Master style Monk. Something that allows the monk to bond with a Weapon a la Eldritch Knight/BladeLock and can benefit from Martial Arts with non-Monk weapons.

Im thinking it would look like someone in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon or similar movies when in a fight.

Ideas for abilities include:

Ki Critical - Either spend a small amount of Ki before any attack to auto crit with your next attack if it hits OR the lazy option of giving them Champion Improved Critical increases with their bonded weapons.

Ki Strike - Spend Ki to cause maximum damage or ignore resistances/immunities to your damage type.

Power Surge - Maybe "Rage" variant similar to the Samurai's feature from the Fighter UA, limited uses, but can gain damage resistance or attack roll advantage a few times per rest.

[Joe the Rat]

I expect Drunken Master*, hope for Weapon Tradition, would be interested in Tattooed**, and would like to see another take on the caster-monk, something in the key of Cleric/Druid.
I could also easily see them do a set of "traditional" Fists/Styles - Like Open Hand, but with different focus and semimagic options based on the (animal, seasonal, directional) theme. Mantis, Crane, Dragon, Owlbear***, etc.

* - With another resource system. They seem big on that right now. I expect them to half (quarter?)-feat tavern brawler for Improvised Monk Weapons.
** - I would love to see this done like Warlock Invocations: Some always on, some at-will, some using ki (when spell slots are normally called for)
*** - I would pay money for Way of the Owlbear :smallbiggrin:

[jaappleton]

I expect Drunken Master*, hope for Weapon Tradition, would be interested in Tattooed**, and would like to see another take on the caster-monk, something in the key of Cleric/Druid.
I could also easily see them do a set of "traditional" Fists/Styles - Like Open Hand, but with different focus and semimagic options based on the (animal, seasonal, directional) theme. Mantis, Crane, Dragon, Owlbear***, etc.

* - With another resource system. They seem big on that right now. I expect them to half (quarter?)-feat tavern brawler for Improvised Monk Weapons.
** - I would love to see this done like Warlock Invocations: Some always on, some at-will, some using ki (when spell slots are normally called for)
*** - I would pay money for Way of the Owlbear :smallbiggrin:

I think the easiest route to go to make a Tattooed Monk work is to mimic the Totem Barbarian, with different abilities you can choose, but allow you to change what one you have active every short rest.

[ad_hoc]

It fixed one aspect of the class, the issue is if you want to play a monk that has access to all 4 elements you are out of luck, I see where you are coming from if you just wanted to play a fire monk, but if you want to play with more elements you have no option

I think having 1 subclass for each element is best.

I don't see a way to have all 4 elements on a single character and have them be good abilities.

You could have a choice between 4 abilities at each level, but you're still not going to have all 4 on each character. I would rather choose an element and then get abilities all relating to that element. This allows those abilities to be good and work well with the regular Monk abilities.

[Ravinsild]

I think having 1 subclass for each element is best.

I don't see a way to have all 4 elements on a single character and have them be good abilities.

You could have a choice between 4 abilities at each level, but you're still not going to have all 4 on each character. I would rather choose an element and then get abilities all relating to that element. This allows those abilities to be good and work well with the regular Monk abilities.

AKA You can't be Avatar Aang, but you could be a normal 1 element bender. Which I think at least is neat enough.

[Nicrosil]

Probably another undead themed subclass, because we can't get enough of those.

EDIT: In all seriousness, Monks aren't my forte, but I agree with what's here. A weapon-based subclass, a tatooed or psionic class, and maybe a four elements rework. I hope there's a thug subclass, but that probably fits rogue better.

[MBControl]

Maybe a STR based Monk Tank, or Mank, or Tonk. Not sure of the name but either of those would do.

Basically the anti-barbarian. Instead of rage, it focuses on calm for it's extra strength, and abilities.

[MrStabby]

I wouldn't mind some divine monks - maybe casting like 4 elements but from a cleric domain and at 3rd level get the channel divinity?

Top of my list would be a nature themed monk. Stepping out of a tree and punching face sounds good.

Something with a warlock feel would also please me - attaining physical perfection and ability through contact with the outer planes.

[Vogonjeltz]

Hoping to get Drunken Master, and a 4 Elements monk fix, and possibly a psionic fist type thing, but that will probably end up with mystic

I could see the bending to popular misconceptions unrooted in any factual basis as well, but tatooed monk or drunken master seem most likely as vaguely unique concepts.

[Mad Puppy]

A misinterpreted Trappist Monk that has Thieves Tools proficiency and uses Ki to set mystic traps?

Funny but this is what I imagined when I read Trappist Monk
Perhaps a kinda Drunken Master? who is a master Brewer of strong Ale
http://ospitalesanfrancesco.liberospirito.it/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/monk-testing-wine.jpg

[Mad Puppy]

I want a Jedi Monk

Maybe a Psionic based Sword fighting Monk?

[Malifice]

Weapon adept: So you can do weapon using Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon/ Wuxia/ Kensai/ Sword saint martial artist.

Sohei: 1/3 caster monk like a divine EK, with a divine smite option like a Paladin)

Tetori: Wrestling/ single target lockdown grapple monk.

Zen Archer: Ranged monk

[King539]

Maybe Swordsage?

[Malifice]

Maybe Swordsage?

It can already be done with MCing. An EK/ Monk does a more than servicable job.

Sohei can be done as well as a Paladin/ Monk M/C but its pretty MAD.

Weapon adept is hard to pull off (you can fluff your shortsword to be a jiann or katana and dip fighter, but it feels clunky and the weapon always plays second fiddle to your fists).

Same with Zen archer. Monk is just awful for ranged combat of any sort, even via MCing.

[dejarnjc]

Zen Archer: Ranged monk

Sharpshooter seems to fill that niche.

[JumboWheat01]

Like many, Drunken Master would be my top choice. It could even be the STR monk a lot of people want.

I'd also like to see a support Monk, using their Ki to aid, heal and generally assist others. Kind of in the vein of a Monk with Divine additions, but more focused on using the Ki uniquely rather than just tacking spells into it.

And as much as I love the Four Elements monk (seriously guys, 4e makes me think of Fourth Edition, not Four Elements,) it could use some love. Being a lone archetype, that shouldn't be dedicated to its own UA like the Ranger was, it could easily be put in this UA.

[Temperjoke]

They may not go for a Drunken Master type of monk, it could potentially raise problems with alcohol as a class mechanic, that might not be good from a PR perspective. Not that I'm against it, just pointing out a potential issue. I don't think they'll have a psionics-based monk either, since they delayed the mystic and it might cause problems trying to mix the two.

I could see them doing a Weapon Master type of monk, though, that can use more than just "monk" weapons. Maybe sending anime-style slashes flying across the battlefield, or using their ki to boost their weapon's damage?

[Finback]

Personally, I really want a monk who has a focus on using STR as well as DEX, to get more of the big-fisted brawler type. I know there's the Brawler feat and all, but I want something that uses ki to shrug off punches, who doesn't *need* a weapon at all, and who can shatter a boulder with one punch. It's a classic trope of monks and kung fu films, and if other martial classes can have a range from, well, "ranged" to "heavy damage" to "strategy", I can't see why monks can't have a range including "stealth", "element bender" and "zen Hulk".

[Mongobear]

They may not go for a Drunken Master type of monk, it could potentially raise problems with alcohol as a class mechanic, that might not be good from a PR perspective. Not that I'm against it, just pointing out a potential issue. I don't think they'll have a psionics-based monk either, since they delayed the mystic and it might cause problems trying to mix the two.

I could see them doing a Weapon Master type of monk, though, that can use more than just "monk" weapons. Maybe sending anime-style slashes flying across the battlefield, or using their ki to boost their weapon's damage?

I think it would be cool to give the "Weapons Master" Monk archetype something similar to Sun Soul's ranged energy punch thing.

Level 6ish Feature - You may use your Ki to project a wave or energy from your Bonded weapon and strike foes out of your reach. Resolve the attacks as if the target were standing within your melee attack range, but you may attack any foe you can see within 60 feet of you.

[Malifice]

Sharpshooter seems to fill that niche.

The rest of the Monk class adds nothing though (barring extra attack, and a decent move speed to kite). Plus if you attack with a bow as a monk you lose your martial arts. No bonus action attack, no flurry, unarmed damage drops to 1, lose the ability to use Dex)

A paladin with sharpshooter is just as effective, and they suck at ranged combat.

You could certainly add some features (stunning fist usable at range on the arrow 1/round at 6th, treating the bow as a monk weaopn and granting an extra shot as a bonus action with a bow at 3rd, adding wisdom to the damage at 11th plus a ribbon, and some sort of ranged quivering palm at 17th etc).

[Malifice]

Personally, I really want a monk who has a focus on using STR as well as DEX, to get more of the big-fisted brawler type. I know there's the Brawler feat and all, but I want something that uses ki to shrug off punches, who doesn't *need* a weapon at all, and who can shatter a boulder with one punch.

Barbarian + Monk does this well.

In fact a Barbarian + Monk of the Long death is a pretty amazing tank.

Temp HP + Resistance.

[MeeposFire]

I am not sure why people want a strength based monk. Unless it allows you to trade wisdom for str in your abilities you are going to be really MAD and that is not good.

Now I understand wanting to do things like grappling or being a drunken master but do you really need strength for that or can we use it off of a different ability score like wisdom (flavor it as ki powered or being mystical whatever)? I think any sub class making you want dex+wis+con+str is just going to fail you in some fashion in this system barring huge rolls.

[Davemeddlehed]

I really want to see a "Kensai" or other name for a Weapon Master style Monk. Something that allows the monk to bond with a Weapon a la Eldritch Knight/BladeLock and can benefit from Martial Arts with non-Monk weapons.

Im thinking it would look like someone in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon or similar movies when in a fight.

Ideas for abilities include:

Ki Critical - Either spend a small amount of Ki before any attack to auto crit with your next attack if it hits OR the lazy option of giving them Champion Improved Critical increases with their bonded weapons.

Ki Strike - Spend Ki to cause maximum damage or ignore resistances/immunities to your damage type.

Power Surge - Maybe "Rage" variant similar to the Samurai's feature from the Fighter UA, limited uses, but can gain damage resistance or attack roll advantage a few times per rest.

Monks already ignore resistances as of level 6, at least when they use unarmed strikes(which why not? Seeing as the unarmed strikes do 1d6 by then anyway).

[Arkhios]

My bets are on Zen Archer as well, as it's quite classic monk archetype, and a tradition that would expand list of monk weapons to ranged weapons is still yet to be seen. Drunken Master is another classic I'm almost certain we'll see, and I think it'll probably make use of improvised weapons as monk weapons or something similar.

I'm hoping there would be another monastic tradition that would make use of Longsword as a Monk Weapon, because that would strongly suggest Eberron connections. If not that, then something that would expand monk weapons with multiple options (including longsword)

Other than that, I doubt we'll see a fix to Way of the Four Elements coming from JC & MM. They've been working on entirely new options so far, and AFAIK, the Four Elements issue is fairly new phenomenon compared to the Beast Master ranger. It's likely that it'll take longer before they take the concerns seriously I'm afraid...
Also; Four Elements Monk is the Tattooed Monk of old. Read up the flavor text from PHB, and you'll see it yourself.

I also doubt we'll see a 1/3 caster, because Ki and Spellcasting are too similar in power, and having both would break class balance.

[ad_hoc]

Monks already ignore resistances as of level 6, at least when they use unarmed strikes(which why not? Seeing as the unarmed strikes do 1d6 by then anyway).

Well their weapons deal 1d8 damage, but still not a huge loss.

[jaappleton]

My bets are on Zen Archer as well, as it's quite classic monk archetype, and a tradition that would expand list of monk weapons to ranged weapons is still yet to be seen. Drunken Master is another classic I'm almost certain we'll see, and I think it'll probably make use of improvised weapons as monk weapons or something similar.

I'm hoping there would be another monastic tradition that would make use of Longsword as a Monk Weapon, because that would strongly suggest Eberron connections. If not that, then something that would expand monk weapons with multiple options (including longsword)

Other than that, I doubt we'll see a fix to Way of the Four Elements coming from JC & MM. They've been working on entirely new options so far, and AFAIK, the Four Elements issue is fairly new phenomenon compared to the Beast Master ranger. It's likely that it'll take longer before they take the concerns seriously I'm afraid...
Also; Four Elements Monk is the Tattooed Monk of old. Read up the flavor text from PHB, and you'll see it yourself.

I also doubt we'll see a 1/3 caster, because Ki and Spellcasting are too similar in power, and having both would break class balance.

Regarding a 4E 'fix' for Monks, I asked Mearls & Crawford a long time ago... Maybe 18 months ago? If the 4E monk would be addressed. They said they were aware of the issues players had.

When the Sun Soul was released, I asked if that was an attempt to address it. Crawford confirmed, and that future efforts at 'magic' using Monks would be based on Sun Soul feedback.

This leads me to believe that instead of the 'Avatar' style of the 4E, they'll break it down into specialists like the Sun Soul.

[BigONotation]

I am not sure why people want a strength based monk. Unless it allows you to trade wisdom for str in your abilities you are going to be really MAD and that is not good.

Now I understand wanting to do things like grappling or being a drunken master but do you really need strength for that or can we use it off of a different ability score like wisdom (flavor it as ki powered or being mystical whatever)? I think any sub class making you want dex+wis+con+str is just going to fail you in some fashion in this system barring huge rolls.

I have a homebrew STR-based monk (Way of the Closed Fist) which also changes the base monk to allow Unarmored Defense to be STR or DEX plus WIS. Works out really well in my opinion, here is the link: Way of the Closed Fist (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_Z24KI9syP_Wkt1YnlQTEQyX28/view)

[DeAnno]

Better than even one of them will use Superiority dice, or possibly be able to power maneuvers with Ki in a similar way 4 Elements does spells.

[jaappleton]

Better than even one of them will use Superiority dice, or possibly be able to power maneuvers with Ki in a similar way 4 Elements does spells.

Hold on there. The Open Hand always simulates a couple of Maneuvers. So I'm willing to bet that... Oh, wow. I just had this idea.

A Shining Hand Monk. Followers of gods of Magic, right?

Look at the Arcane Archer UA. Now adapt the magic arrows to the Monk's fists. Oh, that's something to think about!

[MinotaurWarrior]

I am not sure why people want a strength based monk. Unless it allows you to trade wisdom for str in your abilities you are going to be really MAD and that is not good.

Now I understand wanting to do things like grappling or being a drunken master but do you really need strength for that or can we use it off of a different ability score like wisdom (flavor it as ki powered or being mystical whatever)? I think any sub class making you want dex+wis+con+str is just going to fail you in some fashion in this system barring huge rolls.

Yeah, I want a grappler, I don't want a MADman. I'd love something like:

Level 3: Pressure point technique: You can replace a flurry of blows attack with a grapple, shove, or disarm attempt, rolling Wisdom(Insight) against the normal resistance. A creature grappled by such an attack can attempt an escape in a contested athletics or acrobatics check against your insight.

Level 6: Way of the Easy-Flowing River: When a creature within your reach misses you with a melee weapon attack, you may spend a ki point to make a Wisdom(Insight) check contested by athletics or acrobatics. If you succeed, you may move them into any free square within your reach, and grapple them if you have a free hand. A creature grappled by such an attack can attempt an escape in a contested athletics or acrobatics check against your insight.

Level 11: Effortless direction: While you benefit from unarmored movement, grappling a creature no longer halves your horizontal movement speed, so long as that creature is not incapacitated. It still costs double movement to walk up walls while grappling a creature.

Level 17: Monkey Spider Technique: You no longer need a free hand to grapple an opponent. you may move multiple grappled opponents into the same space. Enemies in the same space grappled by you have disadvantage on the check to break free.



I also want Zen Archer and Kensai. I'd give zen archer the ability to "plink" with 1-die-down attacks using MA and Flurry (1pt at level 3-4). I'd let kensai forgo martial arts / flurry extra attacks to add Kiai damage, as well as possibly giving them better weapons.

[Joe the Rat]

Yeah, I want a grappler, I don't want a MADman. I'd love something like:

Level 3: Pressure point technique: You can replace a flurry of blows attack with a grapple, shove, or disarm attempt, rolling Wisdom(Insight) against the normal resistance. A creature grappled by such an attack can attempt an escape in a contested athletics or acrobatics check against your insight.
--snip--

I also want Zen Archer and Kensai. I'd give zen archer the ability to "plink" with 1-die-down attacks using MA and Flurry (1pt at level 3-4). I'd let kensai forgo martial arts / flurry extra attacks to add Kiai damage, as well as possibly giving them better weapons.
Being able to use your Bonus action unarmed/a flurry unarmed to do shoves/grapples would be a pretty solid addition. Redirecting to not-strength would avoid MADness, but I'm thinking Wisdom(Athletics) would work here too.

Sounds like the Zen Archer could use a variant of our Patented dart and dagger "Flurry of Throws" technique.

... And now I'm seeing Master Thrower on a Monk chassis. (It should be Rogue, really).

[MBControl]

They may not go for a Drunken Master type of monk, it could potentially raise problems with alcohol as a class mechanic, that might not be good from a PR perspective. Not that I'm against it, just pointing out a potential issue. I don't think they'll have a psionics-based monk either, since they delayed the mystic and it might cause problems trying to mix the two.

I could see them doing a Weapon Master type of monk, though, that can use more than just "monk" weapons. Maybe sending anime-style slashes flying across the battlefield, or using their ki to boost their weapon's damage?

You make a good point there, but what if they re-worked the drunken aspect with magic rather than alcohol. Channeling the ki itself sends them in to a euphoric "drunken" state, that would create the same effect, wouldn't include or endorse alcohol, and wouldn't require an additional object to use the effects.

[jaappleton]

They could easily flavor the Drunken Master as using Ki to enter a lucid trance-like state.

We all know what they'd really be saying, but they could say it without saying it, y'know?

[Arkhios]

Slaughtering creatures in multiple imaginative ways is completely fine, but if consuming alcohol becomes a mechanical thing, suddenly everyone think it's severe problem? Go figure...

[Temperjoke]

Slaughtering creatures in multiple imaginative ways is completely fine, but if consuming alcohol becomes a mechanical thing, suddenly everyone think it's severe problem? Go figure...

It's more about how imitable something is. Pretending to fight monsters and other people with sticks as swords is one thing, grabbing the alcohol to make yourself stronger is a different thing. Again, I'm not saying that I have a problem with it, but when you involve things like alcohol as a core mechanic for a class, it increases the odds that someone will throw a fit about it and what it represents.

[X3r4ph]

Oozemaster!

No seriously. Monk of the Flayed Hand. We know most of these UAs cater to Eberron and we lack a Con Wis monk. I guess this could be the one.

Also, Drunken Master. Of course.

[Mortis_Elrod]

I like the idea of a strength based grappler/ank monk. I think the perfect tradition would be the Way of the Sumo. Sumo wrestler monk tradition would be cool. Besides that, Tattoo monk, Zen Archer, Drunken Fist, Maybe more element based ones (Mountain soul, River Soul, Cloud soul? Gale soul? Tornado? idk about wind.), Oh and a Way of the Zodiac. Stance based switch stances from the zodiac signs to do different stuff.

[Arkhios]

It's more about how imitable something is. Pretending to fight monsters and other people with sticks as swords is one thing, grabbing the alcohol to make yourself stronger is a different thing. Again, I'm not saying that I have a problem with it, but when you involve things like alcohol as a core mechanic for a class, it increases the odds that someone will throw a fit about it and what it represents.

If people really have to ask twice whether alcoholism as a core class feature is appropriate, but at the same time they accept assassination, that's hypocritical.

[Temperjoke]

If people really have to ask twice whether alcoholism as a core class feature is appropriate, but at the same time they accept assassination, that's hypocritical.

Well, yeah, people are hypocritical. I thought that was self-evident. At the same time, assassination has become a common enough thing in games, while drunken masters have slipped into the background of history, both in reality and games, largely because of the problems associated with alcoholism.

Aside from that, what would a Drunken Master have as options? Historically, practitioners never actually drank alcohol, just practiced the swaying and appearances to be able to attack from weird angles and to throw their opponents off.

[MinotaurWarrior]

If people really have to ask twice whether alcoholism as a core class feature is appropriate, but at the same time they accept assassination, that's hypocritical.

No, it's not. There's no real logical connection between the two, other than that they're both bad things. But way more kids who play games are trying to escape the consequences of / at risk of becoming alcoholics than assassins. Also, there are several real world myths about alcohol and violence (e.g. that it makes you a better fighter for x, y, z reasons) that the drunken master archetype reinforces, and unsupervised kids might buy into. I think most players start playing DnD before they start drinking, whereas most players just never start assassinating people.

Now, I mean, either way I don't think it's a big deal, but there is a difference. I think putting a parental advisory on a product with a drunken master saying, "Hey, talk with your kid and make sure they understand what responsible alcohol consumption looks like before buying them this for christmas" makes perfect sense.

[Douche]

Yeah a Diablo style semi-healer supporty fighter hybrid (Striker/Support) style may be neat. Also seems viable.

Otherwise I can't really think of anything that isn't already there. Unless there's like a total reverse to a Catholic Monk style Priest/Healer/Scribe Archetype...but I feel the D&D Monk is strictly Eastern influenced??

Y'know, I've always disliked the idea of calling them monks, because of the whole religious intonation (whether eastern or western). Monks in RPGs are always primarily a martial artist. I wish they'd call it that... Or just something that removes the association with bald men contemplating the universe on a mountaintop.

[JellyPooga]

Oozemaster!

Woo! Monk Oozemaster would be awesome! Deflect Ooze. Flurry of Ooze. Extra Ooze. Stunning Ooze. Stillness of Ooze (a charm effect). Purity of Ooze (to heal your oozey friends). Tongue of Ooze and Mould (eww). Diamond Ooze (uh...not sure about this one). Oozy Body. Perfect Ooze. It all fits so well...

[Arkhios]

No, it's not. There's no real logical connection between the two, other than that they're both bad things.

That's pretty much my point, they're both bad things, each one in their own way, but objectively speaking, shouldn't there already be parental advisory mark to D&D which is clearly a very violent game, with morally questionable things our characters might do? If you can't separate fiction from reality without someone else telling you how, you probably shouldn't play the game in the first place.

In that vein, alcoholism is just as bad as the general "murderhoboing" the game tends to often be about. Putting one or the other issue on a stand is hypocritical, because they are things each of our characters could do anyway, with or without actual game rules to guide or encourage us.

I'm not saying drunken masters absolutely had to drink to maintain their posture and techniques, but in essence I'm against the idea that such a thing would require some sort of magic or ki to fake the euphoria of being drunk. If, however, the technique would be explained by special training, that I can agree with. It's just that the idea of arbitrary added mysticism to accomplish drunken mastery is ridiculous.

[Syll]

Now, I mean, either way I don't think it's a big deal, but there is a difference. I think putting a parental advisory on a product with a drunken master saying, "Hey, talk with your kid and make sure they understand what responsible alcohol consumption looks like before buying them this for christmas" makes perfect sense.
I would view an advisory like that the same way I view the "warning: contains nuts" labels on bags of peanuts.


As for monk archetypes, I think the Sohei (a la Malifice's post) sounds awesome

[Arkhios]

I would view an advisory like that the same way I view the "warning: contains nuts" labels on bags of peanuts.

Y'know, peanut is actually a legume, not nut despite their name :smalltongue:

[Syll]

Y'know, peanut is actually a legume, not nut despite their name :smalltongue:

Counter technicality, they actually say 'warning: contains peanuts' though i acknowledge my misquote

[Vogonjeltz]

They may not go for a Drunken Master type of monk, it could potentially raise problems with alcohol as a class mechanic, that might not be good from a PR perspective. Not that I'm against it, just pointing out a potential issue. I don't think they'll have a psionics-based monk either, since they delayed the mystic and it might cause problems trying to mix the two.

I could see them doing a Weapon Master type of monk, though, that can use more than just "monk" weapons. Maybe sending anime-style slashes flying across the battlefield, or using their ki to boost their weapon's damage?

A) What problems were you referring to?
B) How is it bad PR?
C) They've already included Ale and Wine under the food, drink, and lodgings heading of the PHB, and Carousing in the DMG: "Characters can spend their downtime engaged in a variety of hedonistic activities such as attending parties, binge drinking, gambling, or anything else that helps them cope with the perils they face on their adventures."


Well, yeah, people are hypocritical. I thought that was self-evident. At the same time, assassination has become a common enough thing in games, while drunken masters have slipped into the background of history, both in reality and games, largely because of the problems associated with alcoholism.

Aside from that, what would a Drunken Master have as options? Historically, practitioners never actually drank alcohol, just practiced the swaying and appearances to be able to attack from weird angles and to throw their opponents off.

It'd probably mimic somewhat the 3.5 Drunken Master prestige class.

I could see something along the lines of:

Can store alcoholic drinks to convert into flaming breath (cone breath attack like a dragon), advantage on avoiding attacks of opportunity, and reaction to attack a creature that makes an opportunity attack, with the possibility of knocking them prone (i.e. confusing the enemy with your seemingly drunken movements), etcetera.


No, it's not. There's no real logical connection between the two, other than that they're both bad things. But way more kids who play games are trying to escape the consequences of / at risk of becoming alcoholics than assassins. Also, there are several real world myths about alcohol and violence (e.g. that it makes you a better fighter for x, y, z reasons) that the drunken master archetype reinforces, and unsupervised kids might buy into. I think most players start playing DnD before they start drinking, whereas most players just never start assassinating people.

Now, I mean, either way I don't think it's a big deal, but there is a difference. I think putting a parental advisory on a product with a drunken master saying, "Hey, talk with your kid and make sure they understand what responsible alcohol consumption looks like before buying them this for christmas" makes perfect sense.

Here's where you're wrong: Killing is a bad thing, drinking is not a bad thing.

[Squiddish]

Well, if the rumors are true it's a possibility that we could get Hamon-styled monks (JoJo's Bizarre Adventure), but that is probably just wishful thinking on my part. In all likelyhood, I think zen archers and maybe drunken masters and tattooed monks are the most likely.

[MinotaurWarrior]

That's pretty much my point, they're both bad things, each one in their own way, but objectively speaking, shouldn't there already be parental advisory mark to D&D which is clearly a very violent game, with morally questionable things our characters might do? If you can't separate fiction from reality without someone else telling you how, you probably shouldn't play the game in the first place.

Sure. And there is. The cover of the book, for instance, clearly shows that it contains violent content, as do the product descriptions everywhere it's sold. I know WW has a "seriously this is all BS don't do anything you read" disclaimer in all their books after that one time... and I can't find anything in the same vein in my PHB, but I'm pretty sure there's something to the effect of "this is a fun game. be nice to your friends" somewhere in there.

And I personally think it's great for kids to play DnD while they're still pretty dumb. My current DM runs a side game with his six year old stepkid using a simplified ruleset. When I was that age, I remember thinking all sorts of weird things about the world. It's great for parents to broaden their children's horizons by exposing them to games of imagination, and it's also good for them to know what potentially harmful ideas they need to dismiss from their children's heads.


In that vein, alcoholism is just as bad as the general "murderhoboing" the game tends to often be about. Putting one or the other issue on a stand is hypocritical, because they are things each of our characters could do anyway, with or without actual game rules to guide or encourage us.

Murderhoboing is way, way worse, to be clear. But parents know from the cover of the books and even implied from the title that the game involves that and that their kid is being exposed to ideas about violence they may need to correct. They probably wouldn't expect it to have to do with drugs or alcohol. I honestly couldn't even tell you what book the drunken master comes from in previous editions, so even I wouldn't be able to tell unless it had a PAV on there somewhere.

Also, way way fewer kids are at risk for murderhoboing than are at risk for misusing alcohol, and the current rules allow drinking, but in no way encourage it.




I would view an advisory like that the same way I view the "warning: contains nuts" labels on bags of peanuts.

On the UA? Yeah, fair.

On the PHB2 a lot of us are expecting? that's a different story.



Here's where you're wrong: Killing is a bad thing, drinking is not a bad thing.

It is for kids, or for people drinking thinking it'll help them in a fight.

[JumboWheat01]

Let's not continue down the moral discussion. These never end well.

[Arkhios]

Let's not continue down the moral discussion. These never end well.

Fair enough, I was done anyway.

My friend just recently pointed out that Tattooed Monks were originally part of Oriental Adventures - and Rokugan, which isn't under WotC's license anymore, which could cause legal problems with Tattooed Monk if used by that name.

Honestly, 3.5 tattooed monk was pretty close in concept what Way of the Four Winds tries to emulate. Do we really need a monk with tattoos separately if they would essentially do the same things? I liked the 3.5 Tattooed Monk a lot myself, but I would be okay just reflavoring the Elemental Ki abilities as tattoos (as the PHB description about the Way of the Four Elements more or less directly implies).

[Temperjoke]

Fair enough, I was done anyway.

I friend just recently pointed out that Tattooed Monks were originally part of Oriental Adventures - and Rokugan, which isn't under WotC's license anymore, which could cause legal problems with Tattooed Monk if used by that name.

Honestly, 3.5 tattooed monk was pretty close in concept what Way of the Four Winds tries to emulate. Do we really need a monk with tattoos separately if they would essentially do the same things? I liked the 3.5 Tattooed Monk a lot myself, but I would be okay just reflavoring the Elemental Ki abilities as tattoos (as the PHB description about the Way of the Four Elements more or less directly implies).

What if they decided to take some of the rune magic UA concepts, and mix it with the Monk for a spellcaster type of monk? Less focused on the four elements and more like a melee spell caster?

[Anon von Zilch]

If there isn't a drunken master, and it doesn't eventually end up in a finished product, I'm going to be sorely disappointed. My setting already has a sect of drunken monks founded by an old player character, just no mechanics to support it.

[X3r4ph]

Woo! Monk Oozemaster would be awesome! Deflect Ooze. Flurry of Ooze. Extra Ooze. Stunning Ooze. Stillness of Ooze (a charm effect). Purity of Ooze (to heal your oozey friends). Tongue of Ooze and Mould (eww). Diamond Ooze (uh...not sure about this one). Oozy Body. Perfect Ooze. It all fits so well...
:D Seriously though, it was an actual prestige class for 3e. http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/classes/prestige/general/oozemaster.shtml never understood it's actual strengths though.

[MrStabby]

Oozemaster!



Now I know what I wan't for Christmas. This would be awesome.

[JellyPooga]

:D Seriously though, it was an actual prestige class for 3e. http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/classes/prestige/general/oozemaster.shtml never understood it's actual strengths though.

Yeah, it was pretty poor as a PrC; half-caster on a full-caster entry requirement, got a few thematic abilities in exchange. The biggest strength was in abuse of things like Brown Mould, which doubled its volume whem exposed to fire and Green Slime, which could inflict Con damage. That and being able to squeeze through an inch-wide gap, I suppose.[/off-topic]

[Joe the Rat]

Of course, if intoxication-based power is considered too dodgy for Hasbro, they could skip the fantasy interpretation and use actual drunken boxing for the basis. And include poison/ed resistance, just because...

Fair enough, I was done anyway.

My friend just recently pointed out that Tattooed Monks were originally part of Oriental Adventures - and Rokugan, which isn't under WotC's license anymore, which could cause legal problems with Tattooed Monk if used by that name.

Honestly, 3.5 tattooed monk was pretty close in concept what Way of the Four Winds tries to emulate. Do we really need a monk with tattoos separately if they would essentially do the same things? I liked the 3.5 Tattooed Monk a lot myself, but I would be okay just reflavoring the Elemental Ki abilities as tattoos (as the PHB description about the Way of the Four Elements more or less directly implies).

It's a little grey, but if they don't imply the ink is made from the blood of a dragon, they might be okay. You might need to add a couple of non-elemental features if you want the full gamut of tattoo abilities.

[MrStabby]

Yeah, it was pretty poor as a PrC; half-caster on a full-caster entry requirement, got a few thematic abilities in exchange. The biggest strength was in abuse of things like Brown Mould, which doubled its volume whem exposed to fire and Green Slime, which could inflict Con damage. That and being able to squeeze through an inch-wide gap, I suppose.[/off-topic]

It's true that the abilities are not so great... however a number of the activated abilities would make perfect abilities to spend Ki on. Lobbing slime/ooze grenades, adding cold damage to attacks etc. would work quite well as class abilities I think.

[MinotaurWarrior]

It's a little grey, but if they don't imply the ink is made from the blood of a dragon, they might be okay. You might need to add a couple of non-elemental features if you want the full gamut of tattoo abilities.

Yeah, you can't patent rules, and the creative behind this has prior art going back to the mists of time. When you google "tattooed monk" the first results are likely going to be yantra tattoos. They might not want to copy the design too closely, but they can make a monk with magic tattoos just fine.

[JellyPooga]

It's true that the abilities are not so great... however a number of the activated abilities would make perfect abilities to spend Ki on. Lobbing slime/ooze grenades, adding cold damage to attacks etc. would work quite well as class abilities I think.

As much as I joke about it, Oozemaster (or something similarly themed) would make a reasonable Monk Tradition for the reasons you say. Adding effects to unarmed strikes and granting ranged/AoE attacks is a start, but taking the core Monk abilities of maneuverability, speed, durability and attack-based control effects, ooze-themed boons on those fronts are all valid features. Indiscernable Anatomy to resist critical effects and status conditions, Slippery Skin/Malleable Body to improve maneuverability and infiltration, so on and so forth. With Ki as a resource to spend, the Monk "platform" is solid for an Ooze-based archetype.

I don't think it'll ever see the light of day (as oozes shouldn't...), but it's not a terrible line of thought...

[DragonSorcererX]

Soulknife would be cool... because carrying a real weapon is so mainstream.

[N810]

How about an Exotic Weapons master:
(comes with exotic martial arts weapon list)

[DracoKnight]

Soulknife would be cool... because carrying a real weapon is so mainstream.

Honestly, yes. I would love to see the Soulknife as a Monastic Tradition...which is why I homebrewed it as one :smallbiggrin:

[TheTeaMustFlow]

I'm hoping for the Way of (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sl2jDt_HzW4) Ecky (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJxGi8bizEg) Thump (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuP1eycaA6c).

Seriously, a weapon-focused archetype would be nice, even if it doesn't involve the infinitely subtle and superior Lancastrian art of hitting people over the head with black puddings.

[DragonSorcererX]

Honestly, yes. I would love to see the Soulknife as a Monastic Tradition...which is why I homebrewed it as one :smallbiggrin:

As I said before, I like your homebrew, but class/archetype homebrews always make me a feel little wary... I like your monsters and your stylish pdfs though... because there is a difference from saying "I want to play this official class/archetype from WotC that you probably do not know about." to saying "I want to play this awesome class that was homebrewed by a cool guy on a forum.".

[DracoKnight]

As I said before, I like your homebrew, but class/archetype homebrews always make me a feel little wary... I like your monsters and your stylish pdfs though... because there is a difference from saying "I want to play this official class/archetype from WotC that you probably do not know about." to saying "I want to play this awesome class that was homebrewed by a cool guy on a forum.".

Trust me, I understand the difference! :smallsmile: I meant to convey that I'd want to see an official Soulknife as a Monastic Tradition :smalltongue:

[Princess]

Hold on there. The Open Hand always simulates a couple of Maneuvers. So I'm willing to bet that... Oh, wow. I just had this idea.

A Shining Hand Monk. Followers of gods of Magic, right?

Look at the Arcane Archer UA. Now adapt the magic arrows to the Monk's fists. Oh, that's something to think about!

Shining Hand is indeed a monk/wizard order from FR, so that would be good. Dark Moon is probably already covered by Shadow, but there are also "The Broken Ones" who are all about endurance and reducing suffering in the world, so they could be tankier or support oriented as an idea. Also, Sohei were real-world 'protect the weak' monks who've been adapted for D&D in editions past and might be an excuse for a more paladinly take on monks.

There are also a number of earthly martial arts that could be D&D-ified. Way of the Animals (now with actual animals!), Way of the Maze (maybe a bit like Mastermind or with more team-based features), and something focused on a grappling/'ground and pound' approach would be interesting.

[Asmotherion]

I am not a keen follower of UA, as I read them only once in a wile (and with my group we rarelly allow UA material either way).

I could be wrong, but I think the Barbarian, Druid and Paladin have never receved any UA material either?

I would love to see a Spell-Rager... That is, a Barbarian that is a 1/3 caster, and that can cast spells when Raging... also the spells getting Rage Benefits. Seems totally logical as an UA material, as the things there seem to be often overpowerd.

[Arkhios]

I am not a keen follower of UA, as I read them only once in a wile (and with my group we rarelly allow UA material either way).

I could be wrong, but I think the Barbarian, Druid and Paladin have never receved any UA material either?

I would love to see a Spell-Rager... That is, a Barbarian that is a 1/3 caster, and that can cast spells when Raging... also the spells getting Rage Benefits. Seems totally logical as an UA material, as the things there seem to be often overpowerd.

I'm actually quite astonished you haven't seen these yet:
Unearthed Arcana: Barbarian Options (http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA_Barbarian.pdf)
Unearthed Arcana: Druid Options (http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA_Druid11272016_CAWS.pdf)

these are part of the weekly UA commissioned by Jeremy Crawford and Mike Mearls together, and they've been coming alphabetically starting from barbarian, bard, druid, and lastly fighter this week. Next week is Monk most likely.

[MasterMercury]

I'm actually quite astonished you haven't seen these yet:
Unearthed Arcana: Barbarian Options (http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA_Barbarian.pdf)
Unearthed Arcana: Druid Options (http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA_Druid11272016_CAWS.pdf)

these are part of the weekly UA commissioned by Jeremy Crawford and Mike Mearls together, and they've been coming alphabetically starting from barbarian, bard, druid, and lastly fighter this week. Next week is Monk most likely.

Weren't there some other druid ones?
Circle of Beast, fountain, and fungus?

[rlc]

A luchador.

[Arkhios]

Weren't there some other druid ones?
Circle of Beast, fountain, and fungus?

I think those were in dungeon master's guild.

[Vaz]

Out of Monks, so far, we have the 4 Elements Monk, which is similar to the Tattooed Monk, but also the Dragon Magazine Elemental Monks.

We also have a Long Death, which is a Ninja flavour, and a Sun Soul, which is fairly normal but has the Kamehameha abilities from some feats.

Drunken Master is the obvious PrC not really covered, but there are other monks.

Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries might do with some reflavouring, but it gets some Handy Crit Boosts. Maybe including some form of elemental damage in the manner of a Sorcerer Dragon type?

Enlightened Fist, for a more Divine Flavoured Monk, who can deliver the strikes through a Monk Weapon.

Shou Disciple for a more varied Flurry

[Asmotherion]

I'm actually quite astonished you haven't seen these yet:
Unearthed Arcana: Barbarian Options (http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA_Barbarian.pdf)
Unearthed Arcana: Druid Options (http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA_Druid11272016_CAWS.pdf)

these are part of the weekly UA commissioned by Jeremy Crawford and Mike Mearls together, and they've been coming alphabetically starting from barbarian, bard, druid, and lastly fighter this week. Next week is Monk most likely.

Thank you! :)

[Arkhios]

Thank you! :)

What's more, these weekly UA's have been more credible than those that came before. I agree the old UA has mostly been ridiculously broken, but these new ones have generally been quite good actually. I would consider using most of them.

[Spiritchaser]

I'd particularly like to see a dedicated grappler. Yes they would need a mechanism to make it less MAD. I'm sure something is possible

I think a kensai would be wonderful...

After that... Zen archer sounds fitting but I doubt I'd ever play one

[MrStabby]

I'd particularly like to see a dedicated grappler. Yes they would need a mechanism to make it less MAD. I'm sure something is possible

I think a kensai would be wonderful...

After that... Zen archer sounds fitting but I doubt I'd ever play one

I don't know about grappling. I mean I would love a dedicated grappler monk but non specialist grapples are pretty powerful already; adding bonuses to it from a class that specialises in it could tip it into being overpowered.

Zen archer might be interesting - but I don't think it would work as a monk archetype. Too many of the monk core abilities rely on melee weapon attacks. I could have seen this as a fighter archetype though - using wisdom based abilities to enhance archery (and would probably prefer it to the arcane archer offering they did put forward).

A Kensai - again I would like it, but I am not sure it works on the monk chassis. Fighter battlemaster pulls this off best i think. I think this would maybe even work better as feats - Great Weapon Mastery for example allows a kind of weapon specialisation. Having the same for other weapons would do some of this. Not perfect though.

[MinotaurWarrior]

I don't know about grappling. I mean I would love a dedicated grappler monk but non specialist grapples are pretty powerful already; adding bonuses to it from a class that specialises in it could tip it into being overpowered.

Zen archer might be interesting - but I don't think it would work as a monk archetype. Too many of the monk core abilities rely on melee weapon attacks. I could have seen this as a fighter archetype though - using wisdom based abilities to enhance archery (and would probably prefer it to the arcane archer offering they did put forward).

A Kensai - again I would like it, but I am not sure it works on the monk chassis. Fighter battlemaster pulls this off best i think. I think this would maybe even work better as feats - Great Weapon Mastery for example allows a kind of weapon specialisation. Having the same for other weapons would do some of this. Not perfect though.

Well, the whole idea of an archetype is to change the way the core class operates a little.

[MrStabby]

Well, the whole idea of an archetype is to change the way the core class operates a little.

It's true, but most aim to not make elements of the core class redundant. It would be like have a great weapon archetype for rogue that would render sneak attack redundant or a rage archetype for a wizard that stops spellcasting.

I am not saying it couldn't work - just that you would be having to rework a lot of the base class/add a lot of new abilities to make it work well. It probably could be done, but not in an elegant way.

[Spiritchaser]

It's true, but most aim to not make elements of the core class redundant. It would be like have a great weapon archetype for rogue that would render sneak attack redundant or a rage archetype for a wizard that stops spellcasting.

I am not saying it couldn't work - just that you would be having to rework a lot of the base class/add a lot of new abilities to make it work well. It probably could be done, but not in an elegant way.

I think another way to look at this is conceptually. Does the concept of a dedicated close range open hand martial artist fit best with the monk? This is subjective, but I would argue it does.

Is there a mechanical solution to make it work? Almost certainly.

Is it worth it? I have no clue.

Ditto kensai.

Mostly ditto Zen archer.

[Sir cryosin]

I don't know about grappling. I mean I would love a dedicated grappler monk but non specialist grapples are pretty powerful already; adding bonuses to it from a class that specialises in it could tip it into being overpowered.

Zen archer might be interesting - but I don't think it would work as a monk archetype. Too many of the monk core abilities rely on melee weapon attacks. I could have seen this as a fighter archetype though - using wisdom based abilities to enhance archery (and would probably prefer it to the arcane archer offering they did put forward).

A Kensai - again I would like it, but I am not sure it works on the monk chassis. Fighter battlemaster pulls this off best i think. I think this would maybe even work better as feats - Great Weapon Mastery for example allows a kind of weapon specialisation. Having the same for other weapons would do some of this. Not perfect though.

Then Zen Archer can work. They can do the same thing they did for the sun monk. Give it a special Flurry of Blows that works with a bow. And how cool would it look if some shoots a arrow at the Zen archer he uses deflect missile to catch it and shoot it back at the owner.

[jaappleton]

So, today is the day!

Looks like people really want...


4E Monk Fix / Revision (Or more elemental archetypes like Sun Soul)
Zen Archer
Kensai
Drunken Master

There seems to have been a big emphasis on healing in recent archetypes, like the Glamour Bard. I wouldn't be surprised if we say a Monk with Cleric flavor. Wasn't there a Prestige Class on that, Disciples of Saint Cuthbert the Twice Martyred or something?

[Malifice]

Please be a weapon master. Please.

[MrStabby]

To be honest i think the monk base class is so much fun that it is going to be hard to do this and end up with something that I wouldn't be happy to play.

I expect the typical: one overpowered option (ok slight exaggeration), one nice idea somewhat awkwardly implemented, and one option that feels like a copy/paste of an existing option with minor tweaks.

[jaappleton]

I'm NOT spending my morning trying to guess the UA article URL in case it's been uploaded early.

Nope. >_>

[Temperjoke]

Watch, this is the week they decide to pause their core class UAs to release the next Mystic and Psionics UA. :P

[jaappleton]

Watch, this is the week they decide to pause their core class UAs to release the next Mystic and Psionics UA. :P

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/131/399/fry.PNG?1307468855

[DracoKnight]

I think it would be cool to see a Kensai, also something like the totem barbarian, in this case the 'totems' being the animal styles of kung fu. A draconic monk would also be neat. And as I've said before, I want a Soulknife Monastic Tradition.

[jaappleton]

Kensai confirmed
Tranquility is the other.

[MrStabby]

Disappointed there are only 2 new options. They are OK though. I had hoped for something really interesting and new though.