I just had an epiphany!

[SilverStud]

So there is a longstanding issue of ambiguity between Wisdom, Intelligence, and Charisma. Mostly between WIS and INT. If you haven't felt this issue, or don't think it is an issue, be happy and don't come on this thread just to tell me there is no issue.

But for those of us who ever find ourselves a tad confused, this may help clarify things internally.

Wisdom is how well we discern and receive information.
Intelligence is how well we recall and process information that we already have.
Charisma is how well we transmit information to others (true or not).

Hopefully someone finds this more helpful that the normal descriptions like "force of personality" or "perception."

The reason I think my descriptions are better? They don't rely on connotations that may not be shared by everyone. It's fairly background-neutral, I guess.

Finally, I am, of course, referring to the D&D 5e Attributes, as used in this system and described in the PHB. I'm not talking about dictionary definitions.

[Foxhound438]

Wisdom is how well we discern and receive information.
Intelligence is how well we recall and process information that we already have.
Charisma is how well we transmit information to others (true or not).


I would add that a high wisdom can be connected to having a better understanding of things in one's normal experience- intuition, if you will.

[CantigThimble]

I think there is some overlap between wisdom and charisma when it comes to social skills. Understanding who you're trying to convince makes a huge difference in how you persuade them. You need to be able to understand how someone is reacting to an argument to know how to adjust it so it will be more effective. The insight-persuasion divide is kinda annoying.

[Ruslan]

I think there is some overlap between wisdom and charisma when it comes to social skills. Understanding who you're trying to convince makes a huge difference in how you persuade them. You need to be able to understand how someone is reacting to an argument to know how to adjust it so it will be more effective. The insight-persuasion divide is kinda annoying.
In life or in D&D? If it's the former, for sure. If it's the latter, depends on the DM. For sure, the DM and player can collaborate to create a situation like this one:

1. Player interactive with noble, uses Insight on the noble.
2. DM tells player noble is self-important and susceptible to flattery.
3. Player then uses Persuasion on noble, making sure to flatter him a lot.
4. DM gives player Advantage on the Persuasion check.

But there's nothing in the rules that actually says that Wisdom helps you persuade others. Even if situations may arise during the game when it indirectly does.

[CantigThimble]

In life or in D&D? If it's the former, for sure. If it's the latter, depends on the DM. For sure, the DM and player can collaborate to create a situation like this one:

1. Player interactive with noble, uses Insight on the noble.
2. DM tells player noble is self-important and susceptible to flattery.
3. Player then uses Persuasion on noble, making sure to flatter him a lot.
4. DM gives player Advantage on the Persuasion check.

But there's nothing in the rules that actually says that Wisdom helps you persuade others. Even if situations may arise during the game when it indirectly does.

In life. It's something about the life-game divide I often have trouble with. I've actually had some DMs use charisma for insight checks, treating it as comprehensive 'emotional intellegence'.

[2D8HP]

In 5e?
Charisma is how well you can persuade.
Wisdom is how well you can perceive.
And intelligence is..... I forget.

[SethoMarkus]

In 5e?
Charisma is how well you can persuade.
Wisdom is how well you can perceive.
And intelligence is..... I forget.

Intelligence is...

Your dump stat? :smalltongue:

[Cybren]

So there is a longstanding issue of ambiguity between Wisdom, Intelligence, and Charisma. Mostly between WIS and INT. If you haven't felt this issue, or don't think it is an issue, be happy and don't come on this thread just to tell me there is no issue.

Questionable that someone would invent a problem, claim to have found its solution, and then chastise those that point out that both are fabricated.

[Iguanodon]

The way I always describe it to new players is this:


Intelligence is book smarts.
Wisdom is street smarts.
Charisma is people skills (generally, "force of personality")


Seems to clear up all the confusion, at least in my games.

[Millstone85]

1. Player interactive with noble, uses Insight on the noble.
2. DM tells player noble is self-important and susceptible to flattery.
3. Player then uses Persuasion on noble, making sure to flatter him a lot.
4. DM gives player Advantage on the Persuasion check.What is nice is that the noble could have been revealed to be a wishful thinker and gullible about certain topics, leading the player to use Deception, or self-conscious and cowardly, leading the player to use Intimidation, or even weary and bored, leading the player to use Performance.

I wonder if something similar could be done with Intelligence (Nature) in connection with Wisdom (Animal Handling), Wisdom (Medecine) and Wisdom (Survival). If you can recall this biology class, you gain advantage on practical work.

[SilverStud]

Questionable that someone would invent a problem, claim to have found its solution, and then chastise those that point out that both are fabricated.

Yes, you are the kind of person I didn't want around. This is for people who have ever had trouble explaining this difference to new players or found an easy way to explain it. I was not chastising you for not agreeing, but I am chastising you now for reading the original post, seeing that your opinion was accounted for and unwanted, then posting anyway. Showing up just to say "Your problem isn't even a problem" is unhelpful.

I thought of a simple, fairly comprehensive explanation to what's happening with the skills under WIS, INT, and CHA. Thought I'd share my thoughts leading up to that. Didn't want a herd baa-ing about whether it was really an issue, so I said so.



To the others:
I do like that street-smarts/book-smarts comparison for INT and WIS. It's nice because I don't have to roleplay a dunce if I dump one or the other, ya know :P

[Erys]

I saw this a while back, but felt it would be apt (and its a bit funny, so):

Strength is being able to crush a tomato.
Dexterity is being able to dodge a tomato.
Constitution is being able to eat a bad tomato.
Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit.
Wisdom is knowing not to put a tomato in a fruit salad.
Charisma is being able to sell a tomato based (non-salsa) fruit salad.

[Sabeta]

I personally thought the PHB and DMG explained it quite well.

Wisdom is being able to know how things are.
Intelligence is the ability to know why things are that way.

As pointed out, a succesful Insight Check to make Persuasion easier is valid. It makes sense, it doesn't strain the system at all nor anyone's beliefs.
However, some DMs treat Insight purely as a lie detector button. In that situation it might not be valid.

As for the example in the actual books. Wisdom would tell you there's a breeze felt around this wall. Or that part of the wall is smoother than the rest.
Intelligence tells you there's a hidden passage or a secret door. Wisdom for the most part gives you the information needed to make logical conclusions with Intelligence.
I do appreciate the much simply verbage TC provides, since it does convey the words meanings quite well. While I've never had a problem with it, and my players rarely do, I can see how this would be beneficial.

[Cybren]

Yes, you are the kind of person I didn't want around. This is for people who have ever had trouble explaining this difference to new players or found an easy way to explain it. I was not chastising you for not agreeing, but I am chastising you now for reading the original post, seeing that your opinion was accounted for and unwanted, then posting anyway. Showing up just to say "Your problem isn't even a problem" is unhelpful.

I thought of a simple, fairly comprehensive explanation to what's happening with the skills under WIS, INT, and CHA. Thought I'd share my thoughts leading up to that. Didn't want a herd baa-ing about whether it was really an issue, so I said so.



To the others:
I do like that street-smarts/book-smarts comparison for INT and WIS. It's nice because I don't have to roleplay a dunce if I dump one or the other, ya know :P
I don't deny that there can be confusion as to what the different mental stats represent, I do however, think that framing it as revealed knowledge as questionable, and that the PHB does a sufficient job in explaining them



Intelligence
Measures: Mental acuity, information recall, analytical skill
...
Wisdom
Measures: Awareness, intuition, insight
...
Charisma
Measures: Confidence, eloquence, leadership

[MBControl]

I like that take on it. Very elegant.

I had always seen the difference between INT and WIS as book smarts vs. street smarts/experience. I wizened old dwarf may have never read a book, but 175 years of life has taught him plenty. This to me is WIS not INT.

The Charisma is like you say, how you portray or transmit yourself.

[Tanarii]

I don't deny that there can be confusion as to what the different mental stats represent, I do however, think that framing it as revealed knowledge as questionable, and that the PHB does a sufficient job in explaining them
Where did you get these? Chapter 8 Using Ability Scores defines them as:



Intelligence measures mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and the ability to reason.

Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition.

Charisma measures your ability to interact effectively with others.

Edit: Oh I found it, in the ability score modifier by race chart in the beginning.

[Naanomi]

I've never had much struggle conceptualizing the stats, but sometimes do have a hard time figuring out how to role play very high or low values; or even more so when you have very high in one mental stat and very low in another.

For example, in a 3.5 core-only game I had a sorcerer rocking 4 Int, 9 Wis, and something like 40 Charisma with items... what does that like ok like? Why is the obviously mentally challenged guy so convincing?

[Erys]

I've never had much struggle conceptualizing the stats, but sometimes do have a hard time figuring out how to role play very high or low values; or even more so when you have very high in one mental stat and very low in another.

For example, in a 3.5 core-only game I had a sorcerer rocking 4 Int, 9 Wis, and something like 40 Charisma with items... what does that like ok like? Why is the obviously mentally challenged guy so convincing?

You have a guy who can't read, is probably unfocused, and a bit shallow... but is also McSteamy-McDreamy that pleases all the senses. He has rugged good looks, angelic voice, and a faint yet enchanting musk. People go along with your dumb ideas and brash behavior cause you are just that cute!

[2D8HP]

. People go along with your dumb ideas and brash behavior cause you are just that cute!
Note to self: point buy CHA as much as possible.

Intelligence is...

Your dump stat? :smalltongue:Yes.
Yes it is.