The most useful mental ability

[Lombra]

Which is the best mental ability in this edition? Without counting the fact that casters need that specific one to get the job done, which among wisdom, intelligence and charisma is the best investment?
There are some DM-dependant cases obviously, but basing the decision on saves and frequency of use, which would you pick? In my opinion WIS > CHA > INT is the best order to represent their relative usefulness.

[Foxhound438]

I'd say coverage is more important than a pure "this stat is generally better" mentality.

For example, if you're a battlemaster fighter (thus not needing anything specific for yourself) but your party doesn't have a high cha caster, I'd boost that up and pick at least a couple of its skills, even though wisdom is generally considered the more important stat for perception and saves.

[Lombra]

I'd say coverage is more important than a pure "this stat is generally better" mentality.

For example, if you're a battlemaster fighter (thus not needing anything specific for yourself) but your party doesn't have a high cha caster, I'd boost that up and pick at least a couple of its skills, even though wisdom is generally considered the more important stat for perception and saves.

And that's true, but if we consider them by themselves, which in your opinion covers the most important role? That's just a game of speculation :)

[Oramac]

WIS > CHA > INT

From a mechanical perspective this is true. There are very few Int saves in the game (unless you're going up against a horde of Mind Flayers).

[Giant2005]

The fact that casters require those stats isn't something that should be discounted.
The fact that this is a team game, and that there are more classes that use Wis and Cha, adds value to Int because it is less likely that someone else is going to be covering that need.

[PaxZRake]

I'm a big fan of CHA. WIS and INT will help you in some situations, CHA can get you out of any social situation.

[Willie the Duck]

And that's true, but if we consider them by themselves, which in your opinion covers the most important role? That's just a game of speculation :)

"Consider them by themselves?" None. None of them have any value if you don't have anything against which to apply them. Oramac correctly pointed out that there are more Wis saves than Cha saves, and more Cha saves than Int saves (admittedly, when you are saving against Intellect Devourers, you really want to make that Int save). Other than that, it will depend on your party, your DM, and your context. If you don't know how to complete an adventure because you need to find someone/thing/information in a busy city, you will need Charisma and the skills that ping off it. If you need to find the secret passage/see the assassin sneaking up on you/determine if someone is lying, then Wisdom and its' skills are more important. If you need that knowledge about magic/gods/history/the forest, all the Wisdom and Charisma in the world won't help you if you don't have Intelligence.

[Tanarii]

Which is the best mental ability in this edition? Without counting the fact that casters need that specific one to get the job done, which among wisdom, intelligence and charisma is the best investment?
There are some DM-dependant cases obviously, but basing the decision on saves and frequency of use, which would you pick? In my opinion WIS > CHA > INT is the best order to represent their relative usefulness.Very DM dependent, and style of play dependent. In a combat as war game, any one of them can become the most valuable. Because it's smarter to talk instead of fighting if you possibly can, and because knowledge will save your life. Of course, foraging, not getting lost, and tracking and (of course) spotting things before they kill you can also save your life so it's not like Wis becomes useless. The other stats just become more valuable.

However, Wis still is the most valuable "combat" stat because it's such a common save, so despite avoiding combat or stacking it hugely in your favor being the ultimate goal of the player in CaW, it's still generally the most important stat overall, unless you need it specifically for casting.

As far as DM-dependent goes, it also depends on how much your DM makes 'one roll to succeed for the entire party' for Int (Lore) and Cha (negotiating/talking) checks, vs Group checks. And for that matter, how often he calls for checks at all. If they're overused, stats become critical. If they're under-used, not so much.

[Asmotherion]

Sure, wisdom has a nice set of skills, if you want to play the "I noticed that" kind of character.

Inteligence is also very usefull if you want to be the walking encyclopedia.

Personally, my favorite is Charisma, as I like to play the Face.

That said, there is no such thing as "the best" among them, as they are all very usefull and can benefit everyone.

It's all down to how you like to play. I like to play the Charismatic leader of the group, who is often so caught up in his speach about the next strategy that he didn't notice the enemies comming till someone tells him.

[Naanomi]

Ignoring spellcasting, and acknowledging that some campaigns will make this shift a little... I agree with the Wis > Cha > Int... perception and the frequency and severity of saves targeting Wis alone place it on top for me

That being said none are so vital that they can't be dumped if needed and it won't completely trash a character

[Hrugner]

Unless you play a game where encounters begin primarily with failed diplomacy, I imagine the wisdom>Charisma>Intellect weighting works out. On it's basic level, that's the order that will matter from a pure survival perspective.

It's a helpful thing to think about when building encounters though, I really should allow for more diplomatic breakdowns, or investigation providing advantage on initiative when relevant.

[Willie the Duck]

It's a helpful thing to think about when building encounters though, I really should allow for more diplomatic breakdowns, or investigation providing advantage on initiative when relevant.

Doesn't need to be at the encounter level. If the PCs can avoid high-risk, low-payoff encounters by making a successful "knowledge skill" roll ("your Religion check tells you that the stairways downwards likely leads to catacombs. There will be dead bodies, which might now be undead. Followers of this faith do not bury their dead with valuables") it can save them a lot more than a single initiative roll could. :smallsmile:

[Hrugner]

Certainly, and I try to incorporate and/or accommodate that sort of encounter solution fairly often. Kicking encounters off in response to other types of actions is sort of rare for me.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Different take: all of them have their place, and they synergise well: why not have one character that can notice something, understand the implications and convince someone else of the danger all in one go?

I'm (still) playing this gal (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=691366), and she can absolutely destroy social encounters if I don't flunk the rolls.

[Arkhios]

Sanity, of course! Fail your Sanity Save too many times and your character snaps, and becomes a completely unhinged villain. Roll a new one! :smallbiggrin:

[JellyPooga]

Charisma is the best stat because Charisma is the "Cool" stat. What's the point in doing anything if you don't look good doing it?

[Cl0001]

Definitely Wisdom then charisma. Intelligence is a pretty good dump stay for just about anyone. The most classes use wisdom, then charisma. With only one class and 2 archetypes having a use for intelligence m. Wisdom saving throws are the most common out of those three and it saves you from the worst effects. Wisdom is also used in perception, the most useful skill in my opinion. Charisma has the next best skills with a bunch of rp related ones.

[Specter]

Definitely WIS. Five skills and the most important save.

[Tanarii]

Definitely Wisdom then charisma. Intelligence is a pretty good dump stay for just about anyone.Provided they only ever want a 50/50 chance to pass any lore, investigation or Int checks.

Generally speaking, Int is important for up to half the classes on those grounds. Obviously Wizards, EKs and ATs. But also all Rogues & Rangers if they every want to be good at finding clues and (more importantly) figuring out how to disable traps. Rangers also want it for their "know your enemies" schtick. Warlocks & Druids both want it because they are Lore-heavy classes, as do Knowledge Clerics. Most other classes can get away with a 10 + Lore skill in their specific area they want to be a little better in, usually history, religion, or

How important that is depends on your DM. For example, I use group checks for any Lore or Investigation check where they are discussing it among themselves (ie mostly out of combat), because those who fail will drag the group down. If they want to roll individually, then the knowledge is only known to that character. So each individual having Int is fairly valuable, especially because CaW. As I like to tell players, knowledge is the difference between death right now and death later. :smallamused:

[jas61292]

Wisdom is the easy answer, but I think Charisma is the best answer.

It's easy to look at the rules and see that wisdom has the most saves and a bunch of skills, many of which are important and come up frequently. That said, the right application of charisma on the right person in the right situation will cause 95%of those wisdom checks/saves to never come up in the first place.

Combat is often the focus of optimization talk, but the fact is, the majority of time, combat even happening at all is a sub-optimal scenario. Why risk life and limb when you can succeed without that risk? That is what makes charisma (and dex, though that is not mental) the strongest stat. The ability to avoid the need for other stats in the first place.

[Naanomi]

Note that almost all trap-finding in published adventures are wisdom/perception (exclusively or alongside int/Investigation); it doesn't appear to be terribly important for the classic rogue

Even those classes that would appreciate a little int for knowledge rolls (Lore Bard, knowledge Cleric, some rangers) probably are putting it as a 3rd or 4th stat rioting... a 12 maybe?

[MrStabby]

As A DM I try to make all stats equal in my world. It helps that I tend to use the MM as a guide rather than drawing directly from it so there are a lot of spells swapped round.

I follow the philosophy that NPC casters (who may end up hostile) will try and spread their spells out across multiple different saves. Given that it is on both wizards and cleric lists Banishment crops up quite frequently. Likewise, at higher level feeblemind is brutal and tempting for any caster who can to take.

I also tend to allow knowledge checks to identify weaknesses or give advantages in combat. For example if you pass a tough arcana check you may know how a golem is built and know its weak points. For the duration of that fight your critical range is increased by 1. A nature check on going into a forest may mean that that a character knows the kind of threats to be expected and their signs - getting advantage on perception checks.

I also don't stick rigidly to the conventional stat/skill match. If you want to persuade an NPC it is a persuasion (Cha) check if you want to appeal to emotion, if you want to appeal to logic it is a persuasion (int) check.

I recognise that many DMs might play this differently but if I were to play in my own campaign:

Int - helpful for avoiding threats or identifying weaknesses/solutions
Wis - more of a passive role, you are tougher to sneak up on, resistant to a wider range of spells
Cha - often avoids threats entirely

[2D8HP]

Charisma is the best stat because Charisma is the "Cool" stat. What's the point in doing anything if you don't look good doing it?
You have a guy who can't read, is probably unfocused, and a bit shallow... but is also McSteamy-McDreamy that pleases all the senses. He has rugged good looks, angelic voice, and a faint yet enchanting musk. People go along with your dumb ideas and brash behavior cause you are just that cute!
Note to self: point buy CHA as much as possible.

In 5e?
Charisma is how well you can persuade.
Wisdom is how well you can perceive.
And intelligence is..... I forget.
Intelligence is...

Your dump stat? :smalltongue:.

Yes.
Yes it is.
..............

[Belac93]

Charisma is the most important in the social aspect, and least important in a hack and slash.
Intelligence is never the most important, but it's more important than Charisma in a hack and slash.
Wisdom is 2nd most important for social games, and #1 for every other one.

[JumboWheat01]

Sanity, of course! Fail your Sanity Save too many times and your character snaps, and becomes a completely unhinged villain. Roll a new one! :smallbiggrin:

Hmm... Cthulhu and D&D mix...

When looking at saves, Wisdom definitely takes the cake.
When looking at skills, Wisdom takes the cake because Perception is considered the god-skill of the game.
When looking at casting, Charisma takes the cake by having four classes need it.

...Poor Intelligence.

[LudicSavant]

Wisdom has the most common saving throws of the lot and they protect from some rather nasty effects. It also covers some generally useful skills. The main highlights here are Perception and Insight. Survival isn't a bad skill to have a decent bonus to either.

- Perception lets you find traps, secret doors, rogues waiting in ambush, and more. Definitely a very good skill to have. Everyone wants this.

- Insight not only lets you see through lies or predict a creature's next move, it also makes you socially potent. Check out the social rules in the DMG pg244... you often straight up *can't* use Persuasion on someone unless you choose the right approach (such as appealing to their traits/bonds/flaws/ideals). However, DMG pg244 clearly points out that Insight can reveal these attributes and really open up social check options as a result, as well as meaningfully influencing the DCs of Charisma checks (which is similar to giving yourself, or someone else, a bonus to said checks). It's not only the Charisma characters who can get in on that social action.

Basically Persuasion helps you do the actual persuading, but Insight helps you understand what course of action would be persuasive in the first place. Strength might help you break a pillar, but that might not get you far in knocking down a building if you don't know which one's load-bearing.

- Survival lets you track people, navigate, gather information (such as the example of knowing that owlbears live nearby) feed your party, and may have some overlap with Knowledge (Nature).

- Raw wisdom checks seem to do some of what Knowledge skills used to do. For example, one of the examples of a Wisdom check on pg178 is identifying whether a creature's undead.

So, in short... Wisdom gives you a valuable social role, information gathering, practical utility and combat skills (including the ever-important Perception), and the best saving throw bonuses of the lot.

The other attributes certainly have their uses, but they're generally narrower in their application, and thus are more likely to be dumped by classes that don't rely on them for class features.

[Talamare]

Wisdom is the most powerful mechanically

So when in doubt during character creation, always raise Wisdom with left over points.

Charisma is the most powerful one for roleplay purposes, so unless you want to sit in the corner letting everyone else talk...
Then I suggest this one to be your 2nd goto

Intelligence really requires a DM to push it to be decent, and rarely does that happen in my opinion

[Tanarii]

Note that almost all trap-finding in published adventures are wisdom/perception (exclusively or alongside int/Investigation); it doesn't appear to be terribly important for the classic rogueTrapfinding as in spotting something is 'off' or maybe the trigger point is typically Perception. Figuring out how to disable it is usually Investigation. Per the DMG at least, I don't know about the Adventure Paths.

[Hrugner]

Hmm... Cthulhu and D&D mix...

When looking at saves, Wisdom definitely takes the cake.
When looking at skills, Wisdom takes the cake because Perception is considered the god-skill of the game.
When looking at casting, Charisma takes the cake by having four classes need it.

...Poor Intelligence.

For charisma, it isn't just that it has the most caster classes associated with it, it's that those classes have mechanics that play really well with the other caster classes. The flexibility offered by warlock style casting, smite spell conversion, and spell points, give a broader mechanical access through charisma than through any other stat.

[Naanomi]

Trapfinding as in spotting something is 'off' or maybe the trigger point is typically Perception. Figuring out how to disable it is usually Investigation. Per the DMG at least, I don't know about the Adventure Paths.
Perception to find (sometimes perception or Investigation); thief tools to disarm in every example I've found

[Potato_Priest]

One DM that I play under will sometimes give us crucial pieces of a monster's combat statistics on an int check, so that tends to even it out. I would rank the scores Wis>Int>Cha.
Why? In general, taking the active approach to persuasion and actually saying what you want to say rather than rolling a persuasion check is called roleplay, while taking the active approach to knowledge about artifacts or monsters and just using what you actually know is called meta-game thinking. The DM is more favorable to you going around a low charisma using your real-life one than he/she is to you going around a low intelligence by using your actual knowledge.

[Toofey]

It' so sad that intelligence doesn't even have an argument to be made for it here. Wis if your dm is a dice roller cha is it's an RP heavy campaign. Int if you're playing a wizard, but they're not even the best caster anymore.

[JumboWheat01]

It' so sad that intelligence doesn't even have an argument to be made for it here. Wis if your dm is a dice roller cha is it's an RP heavy campaign. Int if you're playing a wizard, but they're not even the best caster anymore.

And you could actually make a Wizard who has INT as their dump stat, since the level of spell you can cast is no longer tied to it. Sure, you'd have to avoid offensive spells, but your supportive and utility spells would be JUST fine.

[Millstone85]

Wis>Int>Cha.
Why? In general, taking the active approach to persuasion and actually saying what you want to say rather than rolling a persuasion check is called roleplay, while taking the active approach to knowledge about artifacts or monsters and just using what you actually know is called meta-game thinking.I am a bit surprised this wasn't said sooner.

After "What does my character see?" (or otherwise sense in a place or about another character), my next most common question is "What does my character recall?" (about a monster, a name, a nation's past...) and both are often answered with "Make an Ability (Skill) check!".

Meanwhile, if I say something like "My character tries to convince the mayor to let their party handle the situation.", the answer is usually "Okay, what do you tell him?". Actually, I am not sure I ever made a Charisma check.

Now, I use the descriptive approach ("I tell him about X and Z, stressing how good we are with the latter.") more often than I voice my character, so I wouldn't call myself an intense roleplayer. I also understand that Charisma is supposed to represent look, eloquence and other factors beyond the words I want my character to say.

So we are probably doing it wrong. But how do you do it right?

[Tanarii]

So we are probably doing it wrong. But how do you do it right?
Social Interaction is on DMG p244-245

The basic process is:
1) starting attitude
2) conversation
3) charisma check

Also, check out Angry DM on adjudication. The DMG section is basically a subset of his advice on Intention, Approach, Outcome and Consequences.
http://angrydm.com/2013/04/adjudicate-actions-like-a-boss/

Some times social interaction should require a check after the conversation, other times not. Like any other action/event that needs adjudication in 5e, it depends on what you're trying to do and if it's the DM determines it is automatically success/failure or needs random resolution.

[Talamare]

I am a bit surprised this wasn't said sooner.

After "What does my character see?" (or otherwise sense in a place or about another character), my next most common question is "What does my character recall?" (about a monster, a name, a nation's past...) and both are often answered with "Make an Ability (Skill) check!".

Meanwhile, if I say something like "My character tries to convince the mayor to let their party handle the situation.", the answer is usually "Okay, what do you tell him?". Actually, I am not sure I ever made a Charisma check.

Now, I use the descriptive approach ("I tell him about X and Z, stressing how good we are with the latter.") more often than I voice my character, so I wouldn't call myself an intense roleplayer. I also understand that Charisma is supposed to represent look, eloquence and other factors beyond the words I want my character to say.

So we are probably doing it wrong. But how do you do it right?

I personally when I DM rarely use Perception checks. I honestly hate newbie DMs who spam it.

Me "I walk into the tavern, what do I see?"
DM Perception Check
Me "What, did someone throw acid into my eyes? I don't need a ****ing Perception check to look around!"

So, if you're a DM and you're reading this, remember Perception checks should be used RARELY!

[Millstone85]

Me "I walk into the tavern, what do I see?"
DM Perception Check
Me "What, did someone throw acid into my eyes? I don't need a ****ing Perception check to look around!"You might need a successful perception check to notice that one halfling at the back whose eyes grew wide before he left the room in a hurry. On a failed check, you only get the description of a busy tavern with human and halfling patrons.