Ultimate Magus

[Vetril]

Apologies if the answer to this question is well known.

We're talking Ultimate Magus.


Requirements:
[...]
Spellcasting: Able to spontaneously cast 1st-level arcane spells, able to prepare and cast 2nd-level arcane spells from a spellbook.

Class Features:
[...]
Spellcasting: At each level except 1st, 4th, and 7th, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in both a prepared arcane casting class and a spontaneous arcane casting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of those classes would have gained.

What happens if you qualify for the PrC without having a spontaneous AND a prepared spellcasting class?
For example, by virtue of being a Wizard with Alacritous Cogitation, or a Wizard / Loredelver?
In both cases, the character can spontaneously cast spells and prepare them from a spellbook. Strict RAW says Loredelver doesn't work as it can't spontaneously cast a level 1 arcane spell - but it can spontaneously cast level 2 arcane spells.

[Barstro]

Strict RAW says Loredelver doesn't work as it can't spontaneously cast a level 1 arcane spell - but it can spontaneously cast level 2 arcane spells.

I believe the general rule is that a requirement of n is satisfied by n+x.





Spellcasting: At each level except 1st, 4th, and 7th, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in both a prepared arcane casting class and a spontaneous arcane casting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level.


What happens if you qualify for the PrC without having a spontaneous AND a prepared spellcasting class?

RAW;
Gain new spells per day for;
1) Prepared arcane casting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class,
2) Spontaneous arcane casting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class.

If you did not actually belong to a spontaneous class prior to taking the prestige class, then you add a level to no such class.

EDIT: in reading about "loredelver", I question if that is really spontaneous casting. But, it certainly has the word "spontaneous" in it.

[Segev]

There are two ways to interpret it by the RAW in this case.

1) The class you're casting spontaneous spells with is a "spontaneous" class, and the class you're casting prepared spells with is a "prepared" class. If they happen to be the same one, you add a level each time it says to, leading to +2 levels at times.

2) The nature of the class is unchanged by how you cast spells out of it, so you only add levels to it when the appropriate adjective is brought up.

There are ways to try to mitigate one with the other by taking them in parts, but those are almost definitely house rules due to inconsistencies which arise in the choice in how the words are interpreted. I think most people go with 2), but START a spontaneous (or prepared) class late in progression to fill in. e.g. starting Wizard after qualifying for Sublime Chord so you can Ultimate Magus the two together without having to get more than 1 level of Wizard first.

[Troacctid]

You add a level to a spontaneous and a prepared spellcasting class. If you don't have a spontaneous spellcasting class, you can't choose one and you won't get that benefit, which of course raises the question of why you're even an Ultimate Magus in the first place.

As far as I'm aware, it is not possible with 1st party material for a single class to be both a prepared spellcasting class and a spontaneous spellcasting class, so you can't select the same class twice. However, if you could—well, let's take the better example of a Sha'ir Mystic Theurge. If you choose sha'ir as both the arcane and divine side, then the resulting Sha'ir X/Mystic Theurge Y will have an effective sha'ir CL of X+Y, because you get +1 at every level.

[Barstro]

Upon further reflection;

It seems like OP is curious about gaining two classes worth of spells per day each time the character levels. I'm looking specifically at Loredelver, since that one was a quick read.

In that example, the Wizard part would certainly gain "new spells per day"

Looking that the Loredelver side, I see two possibilities;
1) It isn't really a spontaneous class, so it doesn't count and doesn't gain any new spells.
2) It IS a spontaneous class and does gain new spells per day. However, there is no such thing as a Loredelver spell, so it gains no actual spells per day.

Any other ways to look at it?

[Troacctid]

Spontaneous spellcasters can cast all their known spells spontaneously, not just a subset, and they do not prepare spells. This is distinct from the ability some prepared casters (like clerics and druids) have of spontaneously casting a subset of their spells. A Wizard/Loredelver would not be considered a spontaneous caster, despite having the ability to cast some spells spontaneously. RC 139.

[Segev]

Don't forget that there are feats which let spontaneous casters prepare spells.

[Barstro]

Don't forget that there are feats which let spontaneous casters prepare spells.

True. But, that would still mean that there is no "spontaneous arcane casting class" upon which to bestow the "new spells per day".

I'm having trouble (granted, my D&D knowledge falls far below most people's on this site) coming up with a combination that would allow for even an argument to "double dip" the new spells per day.

[Segev]

True. But, that would still mean that there is no "spontaneous arcane casting class" upon which to bestow the "new spells per day".

I'm having trouble (granted, my D&D knowledge falls far below most people's on this site) coming up with a combination that would allow for even an argument to "double dip" the new spells per day.

Technically, spell slots are spells per day.

[Grim Reader]

As far as I'm aware, it is not possible with 1st party material for a single class to be both a prepared spellcasting class and a spontaneous spellcasting class, so you can't select the same class twice. However, if you could—well, let's take the better example of a Sha'ir Mystic Theurge. If you choose sha'ir as both the arcane and divine side, then the resulting Sha'ir X/Mystic Theurge Y will have an effective sha'ir CL of X+Y, because you get +1 at every level.

The table says +1 level. The text puts it differently. I think there is some debate about wether the text supports double-advancing a class.

[Troacctid]

The table says +1 level. The text puts it differently. I think there is some debate about wether the text supports double-advancing a class.
The text also uses singular language, does it not?

[Vetril]

2) It IS a spontaneous class and does gain new spells per day. However, there is no such thing as a Loredelver spell, so it gains no actual spells per day.

This is wrong because Loredelver, like all spellcasting PrCs, says that "At each level after 1st, you gain new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level."
If you level up as Ultimate Magus and choose to gain new spells per day, spells known and caster level as if you had gained a level in Loredelver, the Loredelver class itself would make you gain new spells per day and spells known as if you had gained a level in whatever class Loredelver is advancing. And I just noticed that Loredelver doesn't advance caster level. What a sloppy mess.


It boils down to "how is a spontaneous arcane casting class defined?", imho. Troacctid's definition is interesting


Spontaneous spellcasters can cast all their known spells spontaneously, not just a subset, and they do not prepare spells.

Which implies that preparing spells and spontaneous casting are mutually exclusive. However, as Segev pointed out, there is such a thing as Arcane Preparation, that allows a spontaneous caster to prepare spells. That means that a Sorcerer with Arcane Preparation would not be considered a spontaneous spellcaster anymore.

If you concede that a class can prepare spells (from a spellbook) and spontaneously cast them, the question becomes if you can apply both advances to the same class - and I'd say that RAW, you can. Which leads to a Wizard able to cast level 9 spells at level 13.

I'd say the most sensible way to handle this would be a houserule that says you can't apply the benefits, directly or indirectly, of one PrC level to the same class more than once.

[Grim Reader]

The text also uses singular language, does it not?

According to the SRD it is "a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously." I am not a native speaker and could not quite follow the arguments for why that implies raising casting max one level, but I have seen arguments making that assertion.


This is wrong because Loredelver, like all spellcasting PrCs, says that "At each level after 1st, you gain new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level."
If you level up as Ultimate Magus and choose to gain new spells per day, spells known and caster level as if you had gained a level in Loredelver, the Loredelver class itself would make you gain new spells per day and spells known as if you had gained a level in whatever class Loredelver is advancing. And I just noticed that Loredelver doesn't advance caster level. What a sloppy mess..

Loredelver is not an arcane spellcasting class. it gives you no spell slots, no spells known, nothing. If your reading was correct, you could just apply Loredelvers +1 to Loredelver.


It boils down to "how is a spontaneous arcane casting class defined?", imho. Troacctid's definition is interesting.

Which implies that preparing spells and spontaneous casting are mutually exclusive. However, as Segev pointed out, there is such a thing as Arcane Preparation, that allows a spontaneous caster to prepare spells. That means that a Sorcerer with Arcane Preparation would not be considered a spontaneous spellcaster anymore.

No, that is not how it works. To be a spontaneous caster, you must be able to cast all your spells spontaneously. To be a prepared caster, you must be able to cast all of them from prepared slots. It is not exclusive. The definition does not care if you can also cast some or all spells the other way.


If you concede that a class can prepare spells (from a spellbook) and spontaneously cast them, the question becomes if you can apply both advances to the same class - and I'd say that RAW, you can. Which leads to a Wizard able to cast level 9 spells at level 13.

As I've put above, there is some discussion if adding two levels to a class satisfies the texts specification that it works as if you've added "a level to both a prepared arcane and a spontaneous arcane class". There is also some disagreement weather a class can qualify as both your lowest and highest casting level at the same time..

However, you can qualify as a single-classed caster and get the first, single-advancement level out of the way. Then go Sublime Chord later.

[Mato]

What happens if you qualify for the PrC without having a spontaneous AND a prepared spellcasting class?Then you're probably using the adaption that allows you to use two forms of spontaneous casting.


For example, by virtue of being a Wizard with Alacritous Cogitation, or a Wizard / Loredelver?Oh, that. You can't.

RAW/RAI is quite clear, there are several huge mechanical differences between prepared casting and spontaneous. One of the largest is spontaneous casting cannot require any preparation and loredelver's class feature requires you to sacrifice a prepared spell.

However people in general prefer shortcuts and ignorance. They commit a same-name fallacy and brag about how awesome they are for finding a shortcut to power rather than legally obtaining it. But think of it this way, you cannot set a grease spell on fire, the cheat spell does not allow you to add a zero next to your carried gold, and a continual flame can't actually start a house fire. Similarly, just because the paladin's turn undead class feature has the same name as the cleric's turn undead class feature does not make them identical, the paladin has an unignorable -3 level penalty. Every %name% ability the wizard obtains is a substitution of that requires being set up during preparation and you cannot overlook the differences and requirements just because the name matches something else.

This is also a very appropriate time to remind you of the link in my signature. It'll only take you three minutes and you could end up walking away with an understanding of how many of these arguments come to be and how they are dependent on personal bias rather than the rules.

[Grim Reader]

Then you're probably using the adaption that allows you to use two forms of spontaneous casting.

Oh, that. You can't.

Actually, you can. Ultimate Magus spellcasting requirements are "Able to spontaneously cast 1st-level arcane spells, able to prepare and cast 2nd-level arcane spells from a spellbook."

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a&page=3

No reason why that can't be satisfied from the same class. Spontaneous Diviner Wizard for example.

The problem arises at level 2 of Ultimate Magus, when it starts referring to "spontaneous arcane casting class" and "prepared arcane casting class".

[Troacctid]

It boils down to "how is a spontaneous arcane casting class defined?", imho. Troacctid's definition is interesting
It's not my definition, it's the Rules Compendium's definition. I just paraphrased it.


Actually, you can. Ultimate Magus spellcasting requirements are "Able to spontaneously cast 1st-level arcane spells, able to prepare and cast 2nd-level arcane spells from a spellbook."

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a&page=3

No reason why that can't be satisfied from the same class. Spontaneous Diviner Wizard for example.

The problem arises at level 2 of Ultimate Magus, when it starts referring to "spontaneous arcane casting class" and "prepared arcane casting class".
This is true. And the distinction between being able to prepare spells and being a prepared spellcasting class is also relevant; Arcane Preparation gives you the ability to prepare spells, but it does not change the nature of your class. (Also, you don't prepare them from a spellbook, so you don't meet the requirements.)

[Mato]

Spellcasting: At each level except 1st, 4th, and 7th, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in both a prepared arcane casting class and a spontaneous arcane casting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of those classes would have gained.And that's a very good point on why it doesn't work Grim Reader, thanks for posting.

Even if you ignore pertinent rules text and throw out the in contextual meaning of the terms used to use your own interpretation under a fallacy of false authority to excuse your stance from any other interpretations presented. You'd still have logical exception in the class features since it specifically progresses two different classes at once. The system would crash and require a DM to provide a houserule on how to resolve the issue before you could continue forward.

[Vetril]

I looked up the definition in the rules compendium; it's what you posted, more or less. I also found this paragraph.


OTHER SPONTANEOUS CASTING Some spellcasters prepare spells, but they can cast certain spells spontaneously as detailed in their class description. A good-aligned cleric or a cleric of a good-aligned deity can spontaneously cast a cure spell in place of a prepared spell of the same level or higher, but not in place of a domain spell. A druid can spontaneously cast a summon nature’s ally spell in place of a prepared spell of the same level or higher. Such spontaneous casting follows special rules for spontaneous spellcasting, such as how metamagic feats interact with casting time, but otherwise functions as normal spellcasting.

That to me says that a wizard's spontaneous replicating (obtained through any sort of trick) is truly spontaneous spellcasting. The fact that you sacrifice a prepared spell is not important.

BTW Ma lo, I don't think I like your tone and attitude. I don't need you to patronize anyone, thank you very much.

[Karl Aegis]

So you are a wizard with a prestige class that isn't particularly more powerful than a wizard. The normal wizard has more build resources than you do now. Why did you take the prestige class?

[Grim Reader]

Its fun to play is the normal reason.

[Mato]

I looked up the definition in the rules compendium; it's what you posted, more or less.It's the less part that always causes concern.

Some characters can cast spells, but they don’t need spellbooks, nor do they prepare their spells. They can cast any spell they know using a daily allotment of spell slots. These characters are called spontaneous spellcasters.The rules already define what is and what isn't a spontaneous spellcaster and unfortunately the ability to swap a prepared spell still requires a preparation process. :smallsmile:



I also found this paragraph.

Some spellcasters prepare spells, but they can cast certain spells spontaneously as detailed in their class description. A good-aligned cleric or a cleric of a good-aligned deity can spontaneously cast a cure spell in place of a prepared spell of the same level or higher, but not in place of a domain spell. A druid can spontaneously cast a summon nature’s ally spell in place of a prepared spell of the same level or higher. Such spontaneous casting follows special rules for spontaneous spellcasting, such as how metamagic feats interact with casting time, but otherwise functions as normal spellcasting. A multiclass spellcaster can’t cast a spontaneous spell from one class in place of one from another class.Yes, it directly says a "spontaneous" casting cleric follows the special rules but otherwise functions as their normal casting.

Is meeting a requirement following the special rules of spontaneous casting? No.
Requirements are the special rules of prestidigitation classes and feats.
The correct conclusion is that to a requirement, a "spontaneous" casting cleric functions as a prepared caster.


IBTW Ma lo, I don't think I like your tone and attitude. I don't need you to patronize anyone, thank you very much.If you consider my last post patronizing for being polite then it's possible that your is too and that would make you a hypocrite amongst other things.

However, to me what you wrote and intended in your post is more important than any assumptions I may choose to draw from selective readings of it. Both my choice of reading and your immediately assumptions affect our ability to read posts as well as the rules. It's why, for example you think I'm politely arrogant and I can admit that I know nothing about you other than you want to argue and seem to have a predisposition bias that seeks confirmation in text and relabels people that disagree in a negative manner so you an feel better about disregarding their comments. But like I said, I know nothing about you to it'd be very improper of me to assume anything.

[Grim Reader]

Mato, I think your inability to write clearly and concisely and lack of colloquial vocabulary is coming across as patronizing.