Merging subsystems

[Morphic tide]

As the thread title says, this is to merge subsystems to have more coherent characters/rules. Not all are homebrew, but most are.

The ones that I am most interested in merging at the moment are as follows:

Pathfinder Alchemist stuff with 3.5 Artificer stuff.

Trissociate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?234951-Trissociate-3-5-Base-Class-(PEACH)), Dabblemaster (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?160062-3-5-Dabbling-Master-of-Every-Kind-of-Magic!) and Splitsoul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?427056-You-have-no-chance-against-me-cos-I-m-actually-four-blokes!-(3-5-class-PEACH))

Evolutionist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?240717-The-better-man-There-is-no-such-thing-base-class), Ozodrin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?390719-Fang-and-Pseudopod-Ozodrin-3-5-update), PF Summoner Eidolon Mutations and Swarmlord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?253053-The-Swarm-Arrives-3-5-Base-Class-Zerg-Tyranids)
-Yes, Evolutionist's thread technically isn't dead yet, but it almost is.

My idea outlines are going to get their own posts, so wait for the set of reserved posts to be made. Feel free to make crazy classes for the subsystems in lieu of regular discussion! This is just kinda giving a place to revive discussions and come up with ways to properly merge the subsystems in use.

Oh, and feel free to come up with lists of other things that share concepts but go in different directions with them to merge into one coherent subsystem. The Trissociate thread mentions a lot of different homebrew classes. Any subsystems with alive and well threads, like Gramarie, should only be mentioned in the capacity of merging them with other subsystems to make more coherent subsystems for less messy playing/easier time making PDF rulebooks for the subsystem (Do we have a Gramarie PDF rulebook? There's certainly enough classes and rules involved for a sizable rulebook like Incarnum got...)

[Morphic tide]

Let's start with the non-homebrew things to merge. Prefacing with a TL;DR version, for quicker reading. Take this as the preferred format for subsystem mixing suggestions.

TL;DR version:
Make Extracts have 9 levels.
Give Artificers a limited number of Infusions Known
Make Alchemist Extracts, Bombs and Mutagens craftable items, of the 'make-a-consumable' type.
Put Alchemist Extracts, Bombs and Mutagens on one list of effects to put into Bombs and Extracts.
Make both classes have a GP value covering version of Crafting Reserve.
Limit how much value can be cancelled by class feature crafting.
Keep at T2 for any one build, T1 for the overall class.
Proposed class names: Chemister and Infuser.

Full version

At first glance, it might not look like the PF Alchemist would mix well with the crunch behind the 3.5 Artificer, but it's not that simple. The Artificer and Alchemist both have item-crafting related abilities, for thematic basis. Both actually have numbered slots, Extracts for Alchemists and Infusions for Artificers. Both can make magic items without being actual casters, although the Artificer does it a lot better. Magic items > potions, after all.

So, the setup involved is largely to figure out how to merge the two into a directly mappable subsystem that works for both PF and 3.5, and make parallels more direct. The simplest step is to make the Alchemist's stuff into a craftable set like Magic Items are, if that is wanted. This turns Alchemist into a source of free items, rather than exclusive items. It also makes logical sense, as it makes the idiotic idea of Alchemist bombs and extracts being somehow impossible for non-Alchemists to use invalid.

But that's where the easy similarities end. Now, for full mapping, Alchemist Extracts probably need mapping to a full 9-level progression and some way to get actually crafted items at a discount. And Artificers need to have a proper setup of limited Infusion lists. And you need to figure out a balanced way of giving limited duration to how long Alchemist Extracts can be held on to, and Artificers need their crafting reservoir to work with PF crafting changes and a bunch of tiny things that are needed for them to work as both PC classes and setting elements, something that both classes fail at because their lasting contributions add up to so little in the grand scheme of things.

Getting into more specific things, a tiny per-day 'crafting reserve' buildup mostly covers setting significance. Make it so that Artificers can make a free +1 enhancement bonus item every week or two and you're mostly set there without busting PCs entirely. Alchemists getting something similar would also help out, but you'd have to get the bombs and extracts to have price tags and crafting requirements that make it important enough to be worth using for your PC life, rather than just selling off the stuff for gold.

To drag the Alchemist up to match the Artificer's versatility, which is nerfed to hell for any one build if all this is followed, make the Extracts, Bombs and Mutagens all come from one list of features. This makes a LOT of Alchemist archetypes invalid, as you can just choose to not take any Extracts or Mutagens and just spam the hell out of weird ass bombs. Or, as one person called the sort of things that come out of it, expanding spheres of Phlebotinum. Technically, the overhaul would make some Extract and Mutagen effects be bomb-applicable, but you could just never use them in Extracts or Mutagens.

For the PF-compatible Crafting Reserve, have it be a larger number and cover GP value of crafted items, instead of XP cost like the 3.5 version. Yes, this makes it so that entirely free crafted items are on the table, but that can be solved with a combination of max buildup and a limit to how much of an item's cost can be covered by the setup. That prevents completely free items, but makes the classes' crafting ability actually matter on a setting scale. Remember, the Ebberon setting literally runs on what Artificers do, the class mechanics should make the setting plausible. Limited item creation does not support the setting.

For limits on Alchemist Infusions and the Alchemist Extracts/Bomb Parts/Mutagen Features known, I'd go with the caster classes for inspiration on it. Generally, keep it high enough to be useful as a PC, but low enough to stop them from dominating the setting entirely. Remember, this setup for a merged item crafting class subsystem would include the detail that the Alchemists and Artificers can only use their list of known things to make items through their class features. So none of that problem where Artificers get every Bane effect to work with at level 1. And in the long term, there's a lot worse effects that Bane at 1st level Infusions to grab.

Of course, they are going to need new names. I vote for Chemeister and Infuser, personally. They shouldn't break T2 for any one build due to limits on how many Infusions/Extracts are known, but the overall classes should be at T1 due to how many options there are.
Suggested names for altered classes: Chemeister for the Alchemist overhaul and Infuser for the Artificer overhaul.

The basic outline for the Chemister is that the formerly separate and not really synergising class features of Mutagens, Bombs and Extracts should be merged into one ability, allowing for the base class to better specialize in their things without those annoying mandatory abilities in the two they want nothing to do with. Furthermore, the class feature could be made an Alchemy mirror of the Artificer's Infusions, acting as a way to get free, temporary versions of items. In this case, the items would be priced based on how many features they have and, more importantly, the levels of those features. Basically, the Chemister is the Artificer-equivalent of a new type of overly customizable potion. Of course, you now need a caster with spells constructed the same way, but that's actually not nearly as hard as it seems. Point buy effect/build-a-spell features exist in several places.

The Infuser, in case the name doesn't make it clear, should basically have only Infusions and the crafting reserve. The things are already crazy, anyway. It's free item enhancements and cost reduction on permanent items. Instead of automatically knowing all Infusions, the Infuser should have an 'Infusions Known' column like the Sorcerer's Spells Known part of the class table. This aids in the whole 'no build should do everything' setup. Added infusions would be actual spells to use in wands and staffs, to re-introduce the Blasterficer's beloved overkill wands. Similarly, metamagic ends up as an Infusion set for temporary Rods. Basically, Infusions turn into either spells, spell things that can be part of wands, staffs and magic items. The Infusion level follows the idea of enhancement bonus = Infusion strictly, with actual spells being strictly equal to their spell level, padding the uses to that level enhancement's cost. For non-enhancement bonus equivalent items, their infusion level is whatever their price is closest to.

[Morphic tide]

This is basically 'Make-a-class/Party-of-t4-people' in one package. Oh god, why...

TL;DR version
Have each 'piece' include saves, class skills, HD, BAB and skill points, for proper cross-compatibility.
The t1 and t2 defining things, like spells, come in a staggered progression that tops off at level 7 spells.
Have each 'piece' only have one good save that is part of the central idea of the class, with core mechanics as what the 'piece' gets.
The features that are almost an entire t4 or t3 class on their own, like Animal Companion, come on 'pieces' that literally are the feature.
Use the Dabblemaster setup for filling in gaps for those little things your character needs.
Proposed class names: Four-soul, Jack-of-Man and Dabbler

Full Version

For the sake of keeping the subsystem applicable to both Trissociate and Splitsoul for all the aspects/associations, have the 'pieces' (dear god, that needs it's own name), they need all the stats covered. So, skill points, saves, class skills and HD size are all needed information. Essentially, each 'piece' needs to be an entirely self contained t4 or t5 class on it's own, made so that three of them become a proper t3 or t2 class, either as a well-directed party or combining all the abilities into one character.

Things like spells, psionic powers, Artificer Infusions and other things that define the entirety of a t1 or t2 class come on 'pieces' with no good saves, tiny hit dice, basically worthless skills and nothing else. Using a staggered/stretched progression, they top off at level 7 things in that category. How often do you use spells above level 7 as a full caster, anyway? For further things in that category, you must use the Dabblemaster points to get them. Most classes only get 2 or 3 level 9 abilities per day anyway, so it works out. Keep in mind I mean level 9 spells as the no-touchy. Hell, I'd recommend school restrictions to make damn sure that it stays t4 for one piece. And make room for an actual class feature or two, of course...

To prevent a bundle of pain from having all-good-saves be easily attainable, use only one good save that is directly connected to the central concept of the class. The 'Rogue' 'Piece' would get Reflex as it's good save, for example. The 'Fighter' 'Piece' would get a strong Constitution save, and the 'Paladin' 'Piece' would get a strong Will save. Furthermore, for the abilities of each 'piece,' full BAB is something that fills most of the allowance. A 'piece' representing Fighter would be able to use Fighter feats, have one weapon use ability, good Constitution save and then full BAB. A 'piece' representing Barbarian would get Rage, Rage feat access, full BAB and good Constitution save.

Features like Animal Companion or Wildshape, which are almost an entire t3 or t4 class entirely on their own, would literally be the 'piece.' For Animal Companion in particular the split off 'piece' on the Splitsoul-based class would basically just be the Animal Companion and a strong Will save. Wildshape would be on a 'Piece' able to use it properly, perhaps having Wildshape, 3/4 BAB and a good Ref or Will save. If Wildshape already covers BAB, then have 1/2 BAB for the normal form would be the way to go.

The point of integrating the Dabblemaster into the subsystem merger is that it has a convenient way to provide fillings for a concept that doesn't fit as 'pieces.' It could be used to buy a save, get 8th and 9th level spells and psionic powers (as a VERY expensive option), get a few extra Manoeuvres or Power Points or Sneak Attack dice or.. Well, you get the point, it basically lets you buy anything that you don't have in your build's 'pieces' but need for the build to work.

For the renames, the Trissociate based one gets called Jack-of-Many, because you can be better than a half caster in Divine, Arcane and Psionics all at once, with limits on the schools, of course, the Splitsoul based one gets called the Foursoul, because there's four party members and you will have four bodies, dammit, and the Dabblemaster gets called the Dabbler, because it's getting a sizeable chunk of it's capabilities locked down and it will like it.

[Morphic tide]

Placeholder for now. Used literally every character for the post title.

[Morphic tide]

Placeholder with no idea behind it. Yet.

[Morphic tide]

Placeholder with no idea behind it. Yet.

[Morphic tide]

Placeholder with no idea behind it. Yet. People may begin posting now.

[JoshuaZ]

Can you maybe expand on why you want to merge subsystems? It might improve playability, but one of the things I like about different classes is when their abilities *feel different*. This was one of the more serious issues with 4th edition. Having more of an idea of what your underlying motivation and goals are in this merger might help people assist more.

[Morphic tide]

Can you maybe expand on why you want to merge subsystems? It might improve playability, but one of the things I like about different classes is when their abilities *feel different*. This was one of the more serious issues with 4th edition. Having more of an idea of what your underlying motivation and goals are in this merger might help people assist more.

Well, it's mostly for the sake of playability, but there's also the fact that some home-brew classes have flavors and mechanics so similar that the confusion of details can make actually playing a nightmare. It's also intended to be a means of getting classes that are closer together in power to make play more balanced. Seriously, look at the mess of feature mixing PRCs in the Swarmlord and Evolutionist threads.

There's also simple conservation of detail. Why have 4 different subsystems for mutations, each with its own set of near-identical natural weapon mutations, when you can compile them into one working list for one subsystem? You can keep the separation of feel by having class locked parts of the subsystem. Tiny changes can alter the feel of a class a lot.

Do you have any sets of classes that you think would be a lot easier to keep track of in general if they worked off of merged subsystems? I can think of no other sets of classes that can work out better as a merged subsystem.

[JoshuaZ]

I agree that the Evolutionist and Swarmlord feel very similar; it might be able to make a version of the Swarmlord that was simply done by having specific evolution options that build to the same result.

[Morphic tide]

I agree that the Evolutionist and Swarmlord feel very similar; it might be able to make a version of the Swarmlord that was simply done by having specific evolution options that build to the same result.

It's stuff like that which is one of the things to avoid, really... If you can get the exact same character idea properly represented with two different classes, then those classes shouldn't be separately run in the same game and groups should only use the one that emulates the other so well.

Honestly, the thread is liable to turn into a compiling project aimed at turning a bunch of reoccurring class ideas into not completely broken subsystem class sets, like Incarnum has a bundle of classes using it. I wouldn't actually mind that, as it still fits the setup of merging subsystems.

[khadgar567]

Can you please put few words to announce heads up i am jumping topic.
trisslocate is good but old create my own class and if i remember correctly you can build nearly all core classes with it.
evolutionist some how this class needs some love by getting new evolutions that actualy matter
as for all jorms classes forget them completely

[Morphic tide]

Can you please put few words to announce heads up i am jumping topic.
trisslocate is good but old create my own class and if i remember correctly you can build nearly all core classes with it.
evolutionist some how this class needs some love by getting new evolutions that actualy matter
as for all jorms classes forget them completely

What do you mean jumping topic?

The idea is to have versions of the various classes that hit t2 with the obvious setups and run on merged subsystems/class features for lower bookkeeping, making actually playing the rather thematically similar classes together a lot less confusing.

New evolutions/mutations that matter likely aren't going to be a thing. After all, this is going to pull from 4 different sources of them and cross reference those sources. There's probably mutations for just about anything you could want included. Granted, a lot of mutations would be gutted out of the Evolutionist list because the Evolutionist's counterpart would be the fighter equivalent and only get mutations that link into being a martial class and maybe some healing things, but that's because the Evolutionist proper is a massive pile of broken combinations and the Swarmlord equivalent would become the home of the Psionics mutations, with spell-like mutations going to the Summoner equivalent and some of the esoterics going to Ozodrin's remake. Divvy up the mutations between the classes to make it so that they aren't 'do literally everything' classes, also known as making them t2 instead of t1. The entire point of putting them under one subsystem is to make it so that they can properly specialize into subsets of the idea. If you want crazy huge lists of mutations, you need to multiclass, no more getting every mutation needed for any build you want in one class. /rant

The Splitsoul isn't that bad, thematically. It just needs tuning. And some errata for some rather important situations. Crunch-wise, having it in the same subsystem, using the same class 'pieces,' saves a massive amount of bookkeeping, as it practically halves the number of partial classes that you need to write. Granted, chances are that pieces clearly made for one class over the others will pop up, but they would always be usable by all three.

[khadgar567]

from first party content to third party content

[Morphic tide]

from first party content to third party content

I didn't. The first post included a list of three things that I wanted made into coherent subsystems or parallel classes, one of which included only first party content and the other two contained third party content. That list hasn't been changed.

[Magikeeper]

I think something like the 5E Ozodrin is more conducive to being merged with Evolutionist than the 3.5 one, tbh.

Although, what aspects of the Ozodrin were you hoping to keep in the merge? I think noting what is liked about these different subsystems is a pretty important part of merging them!



EDIT - Oh wow, I thought the last post was "29" not "9". Um... well, that's only a month back.. that's what I get for posting while doing my periodic "search forums for mention of Ozodrin". >.>

[Morphic tide]

I think something like the 5E Ozodrin is more conducive to being merged with Evolutionist than the 3.5 one, tbh.

Although, what aspects of the Ozodrin were you hoping to keep in the merge? I think noting what is liked about these different subsystems is a pretty important part of merging them!



EDIT - Oh wow, I thought the last post was "29" not "9". Um... well, that's only a month back.. that's what I get for posting while doing my periodic "search forums for mention of Ozodrin". >.>

Well, my big problem with Ozodrin, Evolutionist and Swarmlord is that they are different flavors of the same idea, but they try to be everything in that idea. Evolutionist especially.

Generally, I would prefer it to all be scaled to fit to the Summoner's Eidolon curve of power per point. I would prefer said Summoner variant to focus much more on the changing summons aspect of the class. So evolution points split between the Eidolon and regular Summons.

For Ozodrin, the only thing I can clearly recall as separate from any of the others is the fact that it has an "inner world" setup. It can do quite a few thing with it already, but stripping some of the general stuff would leave more room for Ozodrin-specific "inner world" things. For example, the Ozodrin has minions in the form of puppets connected to the Ozodrin with the "Inner World"... thing. Why not have more of that?

For Evolutionist, either it could be melee focused or be focused on the racial emulation thing(which works great for a 5e subclass option). Which would allow for some significant overlap with the other sorts of Mutator(general thing for the setup). And give plenty of space for whatever nonsense you feel like having, so long as you can find a creature with similar things(like I said, great subclass option).

For Swarmlord... Psionics and minion creation. With limited types of Minion to streamline the setup of them. Basically filling out a tech tree instead of just making stuff on the spot. Unfortunately, D&D lacks good enough mass combat for the kingdom conquering to work in-game. For the tabletop, at least. But still, several well-defined unit types with strict budgets of points for evolutions for each one and preset 'baseline' stats.

I really need to start up the ideas as separate threads with an overview/draft example of mixing the systems, so that people have a better idea of what I'm talking about. Then, I can link back to this thread and have people get into the mood of cramming down subsystem bloat. Probably going to start with the build-a-class ones... If I can put forth the effort.

You got any suggestions for largely similar concepts with multiple subsystems homebrewed for it? No mentioning Gramarie... that is a mess that honestly deserves to be it's own game system at this point... More so than Mythos.