Xuldarinar
2016-12-07, 02:28 PM
We know within* pathfinder's setting, there is a place that lies beyond the great beyond. Now, the details of this place have not been stated, and I think it is highly unlikely we'll ever get anything official on it. That does not mean, however, we can't speculate.
Those of 'the outside'
The list here is, unfortunately, very short. But it is what we have to go on. These may or may not all come from the same place. Its possible there are a number of planes outside.
Devourers: An evil spellcaster or a fiend finds themselves out there and are transformed by acquired knowledge out there.
Hound of Tindalos: Among the weakest denizens from 'the beyond', they are in some regards among the most dangerous. Their attention is gotten by spellcasters who meddle in "the netherways beyond time and reality". In essence, anyone who meddles with time or teleports without regard can get their attention.
Hundun: Incarnations of a desire of gods of 'the beyond', and paragons of destructive chaos. They are out of phase with reality, errors by its judgement that constantly are accounted for. They are sustained by negative energy, but are not from the plane.
Zon-kuthon: James Jacobs has stated what Dou-bral ran into that changed him into what he is today was outside the Great Beyond itself. (Link) (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2svut&page=3?Power-level-of-various-gods)
What we can derive
We have three creatures to draw from; Visitors who returned transformed, creatures who seek out those who meddle in space and time, and those who are utterly rejected by their existence within space and time. We also have a deity, but we'll get to him.
If what we know of devourers are any indication, there is some truth that resides out there that is transformative to those of Evil quintessence, or at least what provides that forbidden knowledge is drawn to Evil quintessence. Furthermore, given their entry, we know it is not a 'void', but something different on a fundamental level. It is however apparent from fortunate visitors that they find vast expanses of nothing. It is worth noting that the foulest are those transformed. Perhaps it requires a certain amount of Evil quintessence to witness things there, maybe instead it acts as a lure, or perhaps it is just that the most malevolent happen to be the ones to stick around long enough as it is also noted those who become lost beyond the multiverse's reaches are transformed as well. What further can be derived is the nature of the truth found. Almost certainly it is relevant to the nature of the soul, given the form taken on by those who learn it. Whether daemon, demon, devil, or mortal; They all turn to the consumption of souls. Not because they enjoy it, or because they hold a ravenous hunger, but generally only taking souls as they need them.
Hounds of Tindalos hold, assuming they belong to the same realm, other answers. The workings of time and space within the great beyond have a quantifiable effect upon 'the beyond', and these creatures serve the purpose of ending creatures that meddle in such matters. We can say for certain 'the beyond' does not have the Normal Time trait, and I would guess it wouldn't be truly timeless. It may be mechanically so, but meddling with time within the Great Beyond does have an effect on this place. It is interesting that it would have an impact at all, given the Dimension of Time holds no sway on the Outer Planes. Provided the Hounds of Tindalos are indeed denizens of 'the outside', this has interesting implications, especially given how 'the beyond' has been refered to as the nightmare dimensions of unreality beyond space and time. Beyond, but still influenced by, time and space.
This brings us to the Hundun. While they are found in the Abyss, Limbo, and the Negative Energy Plane, we know they are native to 'the outside'. Creatures that are of such aberrance that reality around them must constantly account for errors, and though 'living' are sustained by the antithetical force of life, negative energy. Created to be opponents of life itself, this makes sense, yet with the hounds of tindalos we know that negative energy cannot hold an equal sway on 'the outside' as it does in the negative energy plane. At least, not in totality. Hundun came to the negative energy plane, addicted to the euphoria and pain it offers. They are exemplars of chaos, but they are the only example of a Chaotic entity from this realm we possess. While all creatures from 'the beyond' are all insane (by our standards), these are the only ones that reality has trouble withstanding. We cannot assume this is by their might, but rather by their design. Whether designed such reality rejects them by intent or by simply being what they are.
Lastly, we have Zon-Kuthon. While hundun are noted for being in opposition to Kytons, the god the kyton follow is ultimately a result of "the outside's" influence. We could view him as a deific verison of the Devourers, yet he doesn't consume souls (to our knowledge) and his transformation is believed to be closer to the influence of the hive than it is to forbidden knowledge. That is to say, something actively changed him, taking him over rather than a mote of knowledge. An entity is responsible. Now, he is drawn to the very same pain and euphoria that the hundun are, but he resides in shadow and stands in opposition to them.
So, what do you make of this? What can you conclude from what we have? Are there any entities I missed or simply do not belong?
Those of 'the outside'
The list here is, unfortunately, very short. But it is what we have to go on. These may or may not all come from the same place. Its possible there are a number of planes outside.
Devourers: An evil spellcaster or a fiend finds themselves out there and are transformed by acquired knowledge out there.
Hound of Tindalos: Among the weakest denizens from 'the beyond', they are in some regards among the most dangerous. Their attention is gotten by spellcasters who meddle in "the netherways beyond time and reality". In essence, anyone who meddles with time or teleports without regard can get their attention.
Hundun: Incarnations of a desire of gods of 'the beyond', and paragons of destructive chaos. They are out of phase with reality, errors by its judgement that constantly are accounted for. They are sustained by negative energy, but are not from the plane.
Zon-kuthon: James Jacobs has stated what Dou-bral ran into that changed him into what he is today was outside the Great Beyond itself. (Link) (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2svut&page=3?Power-level-of-various-gods)
What we can derive
We have three creatures to draw from; Visitors who returned transformed, creatures who seek out those who meddle in space and time, and those who are utterly rejected by their existence within space and time. We also have a deity, but we'll get to him.
If what we know of devourers are any indication, there is some truth that resides out there that is transformative to those of Evil quintessence, or at least what provides that forbidden knowledge is drawn to Evil quintessence. Furthermore, given their entry, we know it is not a 'void', but something different on a fundamental level. It is however apparent from fortunate visitors that they find vast expanses of nothing. It is worth noting that the foulest are those transformed. Perhaps it requires a certain amount of Evil quintessence to witness things there, maybe instead it acts as a lure, or perhaps it is just that the most malevolent happen to be the ones to stick around long enough as it is also noted those who become lost beyond the multiverse's reaches are transformed as well. What further can be derived is the nature of the truth found. Almost certainly it is relevant to the nature of the soul, given the form taken on by those who learn it. Whether daemon, demon, devil, or mortal; They all turn to the consumption of souls. Not because they enjoy it, or because they hold a ravenous hunger, but generally only taking souls as they need them.
Hounds of Tindalos hold, assuming they belong to the same realm, other answers. The workings of time and space within the great beyond have a quantifiable effect upon 'the beyond', and these creatures serve the purpose of ending creatures that meddle in such matters. We can say for certain 'the beyond' does not have the Normal Time trait, and I would guess it wouldn't be truly timeless. It may be mechanically so, but meddling with time within the Great Beyond does have an effect on this place. It is interesting that it would have an impact at all, given the Dimension of Time holds no sway on the Outer Planes. Provided the Hounds of Tindalos are indeed denizens of 'the outside', this has interesting implications, especially given how 'the beyond' has been refered to as the nightmare dimensions of unreality beyond space and time. Beyond, but still influenced by, time and space.
This brings us to the Hundun. While they are found in the Abyss, Limbo, and the Negative Energy Plane, we know they are native to 'the outside'. Creatures that are of such aberrance that reality around them must constantly account for errors, and though 'living' are sustained by the antithetical force of life, negative energy. Created to be opponents of life itself, this makes sense, yet with the hounds of tindalos we know that negative energy cannot hold an equal sway on 'the outside' as it does in the negative energy plane. At least, not in totality. Hundun came to the negative energy plane, addicted to the euphoria and pain it offers. They are exemplars of chaos, but they are the only example of a Chaotic entity from this realm we possess. While all creatures from 'the beyond' are all insane (by our standards), these are the only ones that reality has trouble withstanding. We cannot assume this is by their might, but rather by their design. Whether designed such reality rejects them by intent or by simply being what they are.
Lastly, we have Zon-Kuthon. While hundun are noted for being in opposition to Kytons, the god the kyton follow is ultimately a result of "the outside's" influence. We could view him as a deific verison of the Devourers, yet he doesn't consume souls (to our knowledge) and his transformation is believed to be closer to the influence of the hive than it is to forbidden knowledge. That is to say, something actively changed him, taking him over rather than a mote of knowledge. An entity is responsible. Now, he is drawn to the very same pain and euphoria that the hundun are, but he resides in shadow and stands in opposition to them.
So, what do you make of this? What can you conclude from what we have? Are there any entities I missed or simply do not belong?