Help with Sorcerer spells

[Unregistered]

Hello (again)!

Once again, I come here for suggestions for spell selection. I already had a similar thread for the lower levels of my sorcerer, not for the slighty higher levels.

To recap: We're a group of all humans (but not all variant human): Warlock (not Eldritch Blast focused), War Priest, Barbarian, Rogue, Ranger, Lore Bard and me, Dragon Sorcerer (Fire).

I play a classical blaster and as my feat, I took Elemetal Adept (fire), of course.

We're now at level 5 and I do not expect to get past level 9 or 10. Metagmagic is Quickened (which saved my character's life twice already) and Twinned

Str: 10, Dex: 14, Con: 14, Int: 10, Wis: 10, Cha: 18

Cantrips: Fire Bolt, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Shocking Grasp, Chill Touch

Level 1: Shield, Chromatic Orb
Level 2: Web, Scorching Ray, Mirror Image
Level 3: Fireball

So, how do I progress? My thoughts so far:

Level 6: Get Haste and maybe replace Web with Slow (seems good to set up a Fireball).

Level 7: Polymorph

Level 8: Very hard to chose. Going with the fire theme, I should take Wall of Fire but we have no "pushers" in our group. So I guess Greater Invisibilty (or maybe Dimension Door).

Level 9: Hold Monster (twin it and then Fireball)

Level 10: Don't really know...maybe Animate Objects or a spell of a lower level (Dimension Door? Banishment for the Charisma Save and possibility to twin it?). As a cantrip maybe Gust.

I want to keep Chromatic Orb because I like the idea of being flexible in the energy damage department. I have no experience with Haste but I read everywhere that it's great with Twinned Spell so I think it is a must have. Is slow then superflous?

I have outsourced Hypnotic Pattern to the Bard (and plan to do so with Counterspell) and I don't want Charm spells like Suggestion or Dominate.

So, any suggestions or thoughts by the playground? I do want to be thematic, using mostly damaging spells with fire (the character is more of a bully than anything else) but I still want some variety and get the most of my metamagic selection.

As always, thanks in advance!

Edit: No multiclassing in our group.

[Eragon123]

Edit: No multiclassing in our group.

That makes me so happy.



I want to keep Chromatic Orb because I like the idea of being flexible in the energy damage department. I have no experience with Haste but I read everywhere that it's great with Twinned Spell so I think it is a must have. Is slow then superflous?

Main thing is that slow web and haste are all concentration. Lets get you a spell that can be used even if you are busy making your team faster.

3rd Level spells WITHOUT concentration.
Blink. Can be fun to wisk out of existence for a bit... tad random though.
Counterspell. Pretty good though doesn't compliment your metamagic but can still be good (bards are better counterspellers though)
Daylight- If you have a DM who allows creative ideas this can be fun otherwise a bit showy without punch
Dispel Magic-Nice if a spellcaster has their own battlefield control against you.
Erupting Earth- I like this one. It may not be the biggest or the most damaging but having prone bodies on difficult terrain blocking the path can be better than fireball.
Fireball (got this one already)
Lightning Bolt-Eh, can be fun but fireball is basically the same thing.
Tongues-not for sorcerers.
Water Breathing (why?)

[Asmotherion]

Counterspell is quite essential, unless your DM never spawns mages as enemies. Blink can be a life-saver 50% of the time, and can be active together with Mirror Image too. And Magic Missile is always a good spell to have, as it provides automatic hit for bulkier AC opponents. As a matter of fact, I would suggest to keep only Magic Missile (For it's auto-hit and potential to upcast), Chromatic Orb (Also a good all purpose spell, so if something has a vulnerability, you'll be able to take advantage of it), and Fireball as offencive spells, and focus the rest of you known spells on utility. Maybe also Scortching Ray. That should be enough fire-power till level 11. Either way, as soon as you burn your spell slots, you'll be casting Fire Bolt most of the time till higher levels.

Also, never forget Shield, it's a real life-saver 90% of the time... at least in my experiance.

I also saw that you have no multiclassing... However, if you can get Hex via a feat (Magic Initiate), and grab Eldritch Blast in the process, it's never bad to add them to your arcenal. Not nearly as effective as if you had 2 warlock levels, but anyway, since the warlock doesn't seem to use his, you might as well use it in his place :P

[Unregistered]

OK, thanks you two.


(...)

Main thing is that slow web and haste are all concentration. Lets get you a spell that can be used even if you are busy making your team faster.

3rd Level spells WITHOUT concentration.
Blink. Can be fun to wisk out of existence for a bit... tad random though.
Counterspell. Pretty good though doesn't compliment your metamagic but can still be good (bards are better counterspellers though)
Daylight- If you have a DM who allows creative ideas this can be fun otherwise a bit showy without punch
Dispel Magic-Nice if a spellcaster has their own battlefield control against you.
Erupting Earth- I like this one. It may not be the biggest or the most damaging but having prone bodies on difficult terrain blocking the path can be better than fireball.
Fireball (got this one already)
Lightning Bolt-Eh, can be fun but fireball is basically the same thing.
Tongues-not for sorcerers.
Water Breathing (why?)

I know that I have some (or plan to get) multiple concentration spells but the alternatives you listed just don't do it for me. Also, should I really let Polymorph pass? I think not. And when I replace Web with Slow, I only have two concentration spells. I thought about first slowing some creatures, putting a fireball on them and then drop Slow and cast Haste on my allies.

Of course, Counterspell and/or Dispel Magic are very important - but my character is more blast focused, so I hope to pass this duty on to the Bard and Cleric. Oh, I see: Counterspell isn't on their lists...that makes it hard to pass upon. But what should I drop for it?


Counterspell is quite essential, unless your DM never spawns mages as enemies. Blink can be a life-saver 50% of the time, and can be active together with Mirror Image too. And Magic Missile is always a good spell to have, as it provides automatic hit for bulkier AC opponents. As a matter of fact, I would suggest to keep only Magic Missile (For it's auto-hit and potential to upcast), Chromatic Orb (Also a good all purpose spell, so if something has a vulnerability, you'll be able to take advantage of it), and Fireball as offencive spells, and focus the rest of you known spells on utility. Maybe also Scortching Ray. That should be enough fire-power till level 11. Either way, as soon as you burn your spell slots, you'll be casting Fire Bolt most of the time till higher levels.

Also, never forget Shield, it's a real life-saver 90% of the time... at least in my experiance.

I also saw that you have no multiclassing... However, if you can get Hex via a feat (Magic Initiate), and grab Eldritch Blast in the process, it's never bad to add them to your arcenal. Not nearly as effective as if you had 2 warlock levels, but anyway, since the warlock doesn't seem to use his, you might as well use it in his place :P

Yeah, now that I realize that the Bard can't take Counterspell, it'll be risky not to take it. But what to drop for it? With Shield and Mirror Image, I feel like Blink would be too much.

I'd love to get Hex for the disadvantage effect but since we're not getting farther than level 10 (I guess), no option for me to get the feat because getting that Cha to 20 seems more important.

As offensive spells, I have Chromatic Orb, Scorching Ray and Fireball atm (and cantrips) and not really planing on taking further offensive spells (Polymorph is more for buffing I think) except for level 5 spells because the non-offensive spells just are not so great.
Picking up Magic Missile at this point, I don't know. I could imagine replacing Chromatic Orb with Magic Missile, since most enemies are not resistant/immune to force damage but having both seems a waste.

Again thanks and more suggestions always welcome.

[Asmotherion]

OK, thanks you two.



I know that I have some (or plan to get) multiple concentration spells but the alternatives you listed just don't do it for me. Also, should I really let Polymorph pass? I think not. And when I replace Web with Slow, I only have two concentration spells. I thought about first slowing some creatures, putting a fireball on them and then drop Slow and cast Haste on my allies.

Of course, Counterspell and/or Dispel Magic are very important - but my character is more blast focused, so I hope to pass this duty on to the Bard and Cleric. Oh, I see: Counterspell isn't on their lists...that makes it hard to pass upon. But what should I drop for it?



Yeah, now that I realize that the Bard can't take Counterspell, it'll be risky not to take it. But what to drop for it? With Shield and Mirror Image, I feel like Blink would be too much.

I'd love to get Hex for the disadvantage effect but since we're not getting farther than level 10 (I guess), no option for me to get the feat because getting that Cha to 20 seems more important.

As offensive spells, I have Chromatic Orb, Scorching Ray and Fireball atm (and cantrips) and not really planing on taking further offensive spells (Polymorph is more for buffing I think) except for level 5 spells because the non-offensive spells just are not so great.
Picking up Magic Missile at this point, I don't know. I could imagine replacing Chromatic Orb with Magic Missile, since most enemies are not resistant/immune to force damage but having both seems a waste.

Again thanks and more suggestions always welcome.

If he's a Lore Bard he can take Counterspell... If Valor, not before lv10.

I'd drop Polymorph in your place, raplace it with Counterspell. I also don't think Blink is too much, as when combined with Mirror Image, it makes your survivability much greater. Even if you are a ranged-blaster, there is always the change that a melee-oriented opponent might get to you. Shifting into a beast with polymorph might be an option, but in my oppinion, it's better to just fade away, and the next turn run and blast them.

About your Chromatic Orb/Magic Missile dilhema: Personally, I prefear magic missile, for it's auto-hit function. Oponents with High AC tend to be non-mages, so they won't have the shield spell. Upcast quickened for a massive blow, then firebolt. If it's not enough to kill 'em, repeat. Chromatic Orb is also quite usefull, as it covers most damage types, but if you're a Fire-Dragon sorcerer, you either way want to usually cast fire spells, unless the enemy is fire-resistant (or worse, imune). IMO, I'd say you might want to chose between chromatic orb and Scorching Ray...

Not sure if you knew, but since the errata, Scorching ray aplies your Cha modifier only once per casting, not once per ray, so no crazy numbers there... Still a good spell, just not as overpowered as before.

[Unregistered]

If he's a Lore Bard he can take Counterspell... If Valor, not before lv10.

I'd drop Polymorph in your place, raplace it with Counterspell. I also don't think Blink is too much, as when combined with Mirror Image, it makes your survivability much greater. Even if you are a ranged-blaster, there is always the change that a melee-oriented opponent might get to you. Shifting into a beast with polymorph might be an option, but in my oppinion, it's better to just fade away, and the next turn run and blast them.

About your Chromatic Orb/Magic Missile dilhema: Personally, I prefear magic missile, for it's auto-hit function. Oponents with High AC tend to be non-mages, so they won't have the shield spell. Upcast quickened for a massive blow, then firebolt. If it's not enough to kill 'em, repeat. Chromatic Orb is also quite usefull, as it covers most damage types, but if you're a Fire-Dragon sorcerer, you either way want to usually cast fire spells, unless the enemy is fire-resistant (or worse, imune). IMO, I'd say you might want to chose between chromatic orb and Scorching Ray...

Not sure if you knew, but since the errata, Scorching ray aplies your Cha modifier only once per casting, not once per ray, so no crazy numbers there... Still a good spell, just not as overpowered as before.

Sorry, I wasn't able to reply earlier. Thanks a lot for reminding me that as a Valor Bard, our Bard can take Counterspell next level. Then I'll take the risk of not having Counterspell. I know that's a risk bat I want to try and play a rather focused Sorcerer...and between Scorching Ray and Chrom. Orb, it'll be Scorching Ray because our DM signalled he'll let me add my Cha-Bonus to every Ray (like with Eldritch Blast / Agonizing Blast). But I'll still think about switching Chro. Orb against MM so I have a less powerful hit but a guaranteed hit.

Again, thanks.

Edit: My problem wiht Blink is - besides that I feel that 3 defensive spells are too much with my limited spells known - is its randomness. Of course, even Mirror Image might be wasted because the DM is lucky and attacks the real me but it seems I'd get more use out of it.
Edit2: Wait, I see that Blink is not concentration. Hmm, I might consider it then...or switch Mirror Image for it.

[SharkForce]

slow is not that great. i'd rather have web or counterspell over it, personally :P

also, i definitely would not pass up on polymorph. it's ridiculous when you can first get it. swap it out at very high levels, maybe, but it sounds like you aren't getting there... if you aren't expecting to get beyond level 10, for the majority of your play experience, polymorph is going to be an extremely powerful spell. especially if you can twin it.

i wouldn't advise dropping all your lower level spells, either... at least, not until you have a lot more spell slots. at level 5, you're not getting a lot of level 3 spell slots per day unless you convert sorcerer points (and even then, not much), which you should avoid if at all possible. metamagic is what makes sorcerer worth playing.

[Unregistered]

slow is not that great. i'd rather have web or counterspell over it, personally :P

also, i definitely would not pass up on polymorph. it's ridiculous when you can first get it. swap it out at very high levels, maybe, but it sounds like you aren't getting there... if you aren't expecting to get beyond level 10, for the majority of your play experience, polymorph is going to be an extremely powerful spell. especially if you can twin it.

i wouldn't advise dropping all your lower level spells, either... at least, not until you have a lot more spell slots. at level 5, you're not getting a lot of level 3 spell slots per day unless you convert sorcerer points (and even then, not much), which you should avoid if at all possible. metamagic is what makes sorcerer worth playing.

No, worry: I'll keep my first level spells Shield and Chromatic Orb. And Polymorph will continue to be on my list - together with Haste and Greater Invisibilty, it is one the spells I thought were "Must-haves" with Twinned.

Considering Slow: why do you think Slow is not that great?
Though I do agree that I recently considered keeping Web instead of Slow. I hadn't kept in mind that in 5e, the DC is not dependent on the spell level, meaning the DC of resisting Web is the same as the one for Slow but Web only uses a level 2 slot. Web is probably harder to aim and will affect less targets than Slow but in the end, the effect (Restrained) is better than Slow's effect. Slow is probably better against brutes (which probably have lower Wis) and Web is better for trapping spellcasters. I am really considering keeping Web over Slow.

Edit: And thanks for the input.

[Rysto]

No, worry: I'll keep my first level spells Shield and Chromatic Orb.

I'm not sure that I'd recommend keeping Chromatic Orb at level 5 or higher. For a first-level spell slot, it does 3d8 damage. Or, you could spend that slot to get 1SP and use that to twin a cantrip, and do 4d8 or 4d10 damage. You lose the ability to choose the damage type but you have enough cantrips known to have a couple to choose from.

[rooneg]

I'm not sure that I'd recommend keeping Chromatic Orb at level 5 or higher. For a first-level spell slot, it does 3d8 damage. Or, you could spend that slot to get 1SP and use that to twin a cantrip, and do 4d8 or 4d10 damage. You lose the ability to choose the damage type but you have enough cantrips known to have a couple to choose from.

Are there any first level sorcerer spells worth keeping past level 5 or so other than Shield? I've been planning out a few possible sorcerer spell progressions (one for single class and one for dual class sorcerer/swashbuckler rogue) and I always find myself ditching Sleep and Magic Missile for more second or third level stuff.

[SharkForce]

Are there any first level sorcerer spells worth keeping past level 5 or so other than Shield? I've been planning out a few possible sorcerer spell progressions (one for single class and one for dual class sorcerer/swashbuckler rogue) and I always find myself ditching Sleep and Magic Missile for more second or third level stuff.

depends a lot. feather fall, mage armour, fog cloud, silent image can all be decent options, depending on situation; if you're in a campaign where you're all sky pirates, you'll probably regret not having feather fall. even in a fairly typical campaign, it is entirely possible that it would save your butt from time to time. nice enough that a sorcerer will want it at the expense of something else? well, maybe not. but still, pretty nice to have imo.

regarding slow: it isn't a terrible effect all on its own. it's just hard to justify spending your concentration and your highest level spell slot on. if you're looking for a good will-save disable, i recommend hypnotic pattern.

the main problems are that slow simply isn't debilitating enough; lots of enemies only get one (really big) attack in a round anyways, comparatively few enemies care about bonus actions anyways, they get a free attempt to escape the effect each round (in comparison to web, where escaping costs an action to even try, and then requires what is most likely a nonproficient strength check to succeed). -2 AC and dex saves can be pretty nice, but not as nice as disadvantage in most cases.

there will be times where slow is a good choice. if your campaign features an enemy that will get shut down hard by it, go ahead and pick it up (the ideal target has very bad chance of making wisdom saves, needs reactions to be effective, can be kited easily, has many smaller attacks rather than individual powerful attacks, and to a certain extent, high AC). slow does have the advantage that relatively few enemies are totally immune, but when you only have a very small selection of spells like a sorcerer does, it's pretty hard to justify slow over other crowd control options. basically, any time you decide to use spell slots (especially your highest level spell slots, and especially ones that cost your concentration), it should be something that you genuinely believe has the potential to dramatically alter the situation. that could mean a fireball spell that destroys the necromancer's battallion of skeleton archers, or a twinned polymorph that takes your two low-HP (ie heavily wounded) melee warriors and turns them into giant apes that can climb, block large areas of the battlefield, and make ranged attacks, or even a web that brings a flying enemy to the ground for a round so that your warriors can grapple it and prevent it from escaping. for me at least, slow just doesn't have that potential most of the time.

[rooneg]

depends a lot. feather fall, mage armour, fog cloud, silent image can all be decent options, depending on situation; if you're in a campaign where you're all sky pirates, you'll probably regret not having feather fall. even in a fairly typical campaign, it is entirely possible that it would save your butt from time to time. nice enough that a sorcerer will want it at the expense of something else? well, maybe not. but still, pretty nice to have imo.

Mage Armor definitely fits, I was ignoring that one because I was building Draconic Sorcerers, but for other types you may want it. The rest just seem so situational though. I can see spending a prep slot on it for a wizard, who has both more prep slots than the Sorcerer has spells known and can decide not to prep it on any random day, but for a Sorcerer with such limited spells know the first level stuff just seems to pale next to the second level options like Misty Step, Mirror Image, Suggestion or Invisibility. I'd want any one of those more than any first level spell other than Shield (or Mage Armor for a non-Draconic Sorcerer, possibly Absorb Elements in a melee build with access to Elemental Evil Player's Companion), with the obvious caveat that a "sky pirates" campaign or something like that would shift a lot of priorities around.

[SharkForce]

feather fall is just one of those spells that comes in handy when you have it. it can save a whole party, doesn't require concentration, and is a reaction cast. i can certainly see why it's a hard sell for a sorcerer, but it really is pretty good.

fog cloud is simply a low-cost method of blocking vision. it scales fairly nicely, has decent range, lasts up to an hour, and you can't see through it with truesight or devil's sight. it would be a fair bit more interesting if at some level it stopped requiring concentration i guess, but it's a pretty good way to level a playing field, and can be a low-cost method of keeping an enemy spellcaster from ruining your day.

silent image kinda depends on how willing you are to spend high level spell slots on illusions. if you're willing to spring for it, major image is by far the best option, of course. i don't know that i'd keep it around instead of major image if i was level 15, but i'd say it can last longer than level 5, at any rate. i mean, major image mostly gets *really* good when you get to make permanent ones :)

[Drackolus]

Twinned Haste is definitely too good to pass up when you have a barbarian and a rogue (unless the rogue already has a way to get a second hit or advantage) or ranger. It's even a good spell to cast on yourself.

[Unregistered]

I am really looking forward to twinning Haste the first time -a s I said, our group has no experience with it. I hope I do not have too great expecations now...


I'm not sure that I'd recommend keeping Chromatic Orb at level 5 or higher. For a first-level spell slot, it does 3d8 damage. Or, you could spend that slot to get 1SP and use that to twin a cantrip, and do 4d8 or 4d10 damage. You lose the ability to choose the damage type but you have enough cantrips known to have a couple to choose from.

I am definately not keeping Chrom. Orb for the damage output but the versatility. We played yesterday and what did we encounter? A crystal creature, vulnerabel to thunder damage. And later on we encountered some kind of demon that was resistant/immune to many things but still, with Chrom. Orb we could put the right damage type on it. While my next sorcerer will probably take MM instead of Chrom. Orb this one will keep it.

Also, twinned Cantrip is nice but you'd have to spread the damage over two targets whil Chrom. Orb has higher single target damage.


(...)

regarding slow: it isn't a terrible effect all on its own. it's just hard to justify spending your concentration and your highest level spell slot on. if you're looking for a good will-save disable, i recommend hypnotic pattern.

the main problems are that slow simply isn't debilitating enough; lots of enemies only get one (really big) attack in a round anyways, comparatively few enemies care about bonus actions anyways, they get a free attempt to escape the effect each round (in comparison to web, where escaping costs an action to even try, and then requires what is most likely a nonproficient strength check to succeed). -2 AC and dex saves can be pretty nice, but not as nice as disadvantage in most cases.

there will be times where slow is a good choice. if your campaign features an enemy that will get shut down hard by it, go ahead and pick it up (the ideal target has very bad chance of making wisdom saves, needs reactions to be effective, can be kited easily, has many smaller attacks rather than individual powerful attacks, and to a certain extent, high AC). slow does have the advantage that relatively few enemies are totally immune, but when you only have a very small selection of spells like a sorcerer does, it's pretty hard to justify slow over other crowd control options. basically, any time you decide to use spell slots (especially your highest level spell slots, and especially ones that cost your concentration), it should be something that you genuinely believe has the potential to dramatically alter the situation. that could mean a fireball spell that destroys the necromancer's battallion of skeleton archers, or a twinned polymorph that takes your two low-HP (ie heavily wounded) melee warriors and turns them into giant apes that can climb, block large areas of the battlefield, and make ranged attacks, or even a web that brings a flying enemy to the ground for a round so that your warriors can grapple it and prevent it from escaping. for me at least, slow just doesn't have that potential most of the time.

I am more and more convinced to keep Web instead of Slow - even though I realized that the restrained condition does not necessarily keep a spellcaster from casting since it does not specify that he can't move a hand enough to cast. But at least I can set it on fire for another 2d4 damage :-).

[djreynolds]

Misty step is nice to have, I know blink and dimension door are cool, but misty step is a BA.

[Unregistered]

Misty step is nice to have, I know blink and dimension door are cool, but misty step is a BA.

Yes, my sorcerer is lacking a "Get out of there"-spell but I really don't know what to drop for it. As per above, I considered dropping Mirror Image for Blink but another level 3 spell? With only 3 slots, that's really taxing on my "Fireball/encounter"-possibilities. Especially if I already have Haste to cast.

But I'll probably get Dimension Door at level 8...and forsake Greater Invisibility for it? Damn, that's tough to chose.