Is it worth keeping my dex at 16 to rush SS and CE?

[Matticusrex]

I'm planning on running a deep stalker 5/ rogue x ranger with point buy for prince's of the Apocalypse (never played it), and I was wondering if waiting 9 levels to take dex to 18 is worth having both sharpshooter (from variant Human) and crossbow expert (level 4) very early. I plan to exploit the fact that deep stalker is immune to darkvision for a lot of advantage attacks and eventually using Hide shenanigans with rogue's cunning.

[NecroDancer]

I'd take CE at level 8. Having your main stat be at least 18 is a good rule of thumb for me. Also it keeps your party from resenting you for at least 4 more levels

[bid]

I'd start with CE, Dex18 at first ASI, SS next.

The bonus attack from CE is worth a lot, but you'll want archery style and more Dex before SS.

[Matticusrex]

Well....begin the debate of which feat is better to start with. :smallsmile:

[Princess]

Well....begin the debate of which feat is better to start with. :smallsmile:

That requires guessing in advance how common cover is going to be. If cover comes up a lot, sharpshooter is the better starter, but if it's only occasional, an extra attack per round increases chance to hit and chance of sneak attack *every round* so that's the more obvious choice. Both are good, and knowing for sure which is better requires knowing how much the DM will bring up cover, or just good ol' fashion predicting the future. There is no wrong choice if you want to be good, and being excellent is often circumstantial.

But personally I'd go CE, then +2 dex, then sharpshooter unless I knew for sure the DM loved fights in high cover environments, or getting advantage for sharpshooter's damage bonus to be more likely to land often was almost guaranteed by other party members. If there's a pact of the chain warlock whose familiar spams the help action all the time and someone casts faerie fire at the start of every fight as you battle your way through labyrinths and crowds, I'd say sharpshooter, then crossbow expert, then +dex might be the most optimal approach for such a scenario. YMMV.

[rooneg]

How far do you expect this character to go? Once you know that you're in a position to figure out what percentage of your character's lifespan you're willing to spend without the core feats that make up the build. Is it more optimal to increase DEX first? Maybe, but if you're explicitly building a CE/SS character and you only plan on playing up to level 10 then waiting for level 8 before you've actually assembled Voltron is silly if the whole point is to be able to play a CE/SS character.

The tradeoff is clearly visible in the aggregate if you do themath, but from one roll to the next the difference is small, 5% difference in hit rate, 1 HP difference in rolled damage, 1 point of AC, one point of initiative. These aren't nothing, but they're not character breaking either.

[Klorox]

I'd start with CE, Dex18 at first ASI, SS next.

The bonus attack from CE is worth a lot, but you'll want archery style and more Dex before SS.

This. .

[Grod_The_Giant]

Go vHuman and take both by level 4?

[lonewulf]

Im in the "Feats First" boat of this arguement but I dont think the "Feat/ASI/Feat" side is wrong...personal preference and such.

But really, take CE first....play the game until level 4 and then ask yourself how many times did you miss a shot by exactly one? How many times were you hit because your AC was lower by exactly 1? How many times were you 2nd or 3rd in initiative because you rolled exactly 1 lower? If the answer is "not often" then get SS. If the answer is "too often" then grab the ASI first.

[DeAnno]

CE first, no question. I would actually take Sharpshooter next before any ASI because Ranger 1 is giving you advantage on the first turn and with Deep Stalker 5 + CE that's four total attacks on turn one. Even if on subsequent, no advantage turns (where you want to tag with Sneak Attack once) Sharpshooting at -5/+10 isn't that great, it'll be heavily worth it in your turn 1 nova and a quality turn 1 is how you win combats.

[Talamare]

CE first, always

[Foxhound438]

I plan to exploit the fact that deep stalker is immune to darkvision for a lot of advantage attacks and eventually using Hide shenanigans with rogue's cunning.

note that you aren't just invisible in the dark due to the feature, you can hide from a thing with darkvision in dim light though- that's the only difference. If you aren't using a cunning action to hide, you aren't actually getting any benefit from that, and since making an attack reveals your position you'd need to cunning action hide every turn- so crossbow expert isn't actually going to help you if hiding in dim light every turn is the plan you're sticking with.

[bid]

Ranger 1 is giving you advantage on the first turn
That's prolly the best reason to delay Dex18 further. SS works great with advantage.

[Matticusrex]

note that you aren't just invisible in the dark due to the feature, you can hide from a thing with darkvision in dim light though- that's the only difference. If you aren't using a cunning action to hide, you aren't actually getting any benefit from that, and since making an attack reveals your position you'd need to cunning action hide every turn- so crossbow expert isn't actually going to help you if hiding in dim light every turn is the plan you're sticking with.

By raw, you only need to be unseen to get advantage, Even if an opponent knows you are in a dark spot, if he cant physically see you then that's enough for advantage.
Did not know you could hide in dim light though.

[djreynolds]

Is this the revised ranger?

So CE will give you 3 attacks at 5th... 1d6+3... 9x3=27 and a good chance of hitting and all of the new ranger goodies and dex will make this easier and max that possible damage to 30.

What about the new greater favored enemy at 6 ranger... +4 damage? You do not want this?

And what about that wisdom saving throw proficiency at 7th? This is an awesome perk

Take this guy immediately to ranger 8, grab you Dex at 4th and SS at 8th and then begin your journey as a rogue.

Pass without a trace will cover your stealth needs till you get expertise from rogue.

[Citan]

I'm planning on running a deep stalker 5/ rogue x ranger with point buy for prince's of the Apocalypse (never played it), and I was wondering if waiting 9 levels to take dex to 18 is worth having both sharpshooter (from variant Human) and crossbow expert (level 4) very early. I plan to exploit the fact that deep stalker is immune to darkvision for a lot of advantage attacks and eventually using Hide shenanigans with rogue's cunning.


I'd start with CE, Dex18 at first ASI, SS next.

The bonus attack from CE is worth a lot, but you'll want archery style and more Dex before SS.
Plussed.

Crossbow Expert is nice to have ASAP because it's a second attack before you even get Extra Attack, and it makes you as good in melee as in range so great for a Rogue. It also synergizes with Hunter's Mark in spite of bonus action competition.
So, balancing another attack against a +1 to hit, it is obvious that extra attack is better (especially if you go Ranger first, you won't have much use for your bonus action except occasional Hunter's Mark).

Sharpshooter is in a different category: half his benefit imply a huge malus to hit, so even with advantage, you probably won't use it that often, especially before you get a higher to-hit (higher proficiency bonus, better DEX modifier).
And the ignore cover/long range benefit will have a very different value depending on your situation.
Usually, it is great when fighting in big, spaced areas or cranked in small rooms when creatures at least provide cover.
But in that latter case, you will probably be able to get into melee without disadvantage on shooting thanks to Crossbow Expert.

Last point, don't forget that with multiclassing you will have to wait more for ASI, depending on how you plan it.

All of this makes waiting at least level 9 character for Sharpshooter a very viable option.

I would probably go like this. Rogue 1 > Ranger 5 > Rogue X if you want to focus on skills, or plain Ranger 5 > Rogue X is you prefer starting with better armor and better evade restraining spells.
Note that I don't suggest Rogue 2 ASAP because...
- Deepstalker gets bonus action to hide already
- You don't need that much mobility because you are using ranged weapons.
- And you get other competitors for your bonus action with Crossbow Expert and Hunter's Mark.
So getting ASI+Extra Attack as soon as possible seems the better option to me. ;)
Also, you didn't tell your choice of Rogue archetype, I suppose it would be Assassin for the nova surprise strike aspect... If you are not set already though, consider Arcane Tricskter: more spellcasting and other sneaky tricks. ;)