How strong would a race have to be to make up for the loss of a caster level?

[Komatik]

Suppose we're comparing a character against another character. Both are full casters, so losing levels really, really, really sucks. Suppose LA 1 with no buyoff or LA X with buyoff that will leave you a level behind.

How absurd would the race have to be to be a remotely fair trade?

[Troacctid]

Quite strong, but it also depends on what level you are.

[Thurbane]

Quite strong, but it also depends on what level you are.

This - the difference in power between an level 7 wizard and Level 8 wizard, for example, is not that great; whereas a level 8 wizard vs a level 9 wizard is going to be far more pronounced.

[Godskook]

"Whenever you add metamagic to a spell, reduce the total metamagic cost of the spell by 1, min 0(So, if the -cost- was 0 already, you can't go negative)."

That would ALMOST make up for it in general, and definitely would in certain builds. Note, this is double the "metamagic value" you're giving up by losing that caster level, on average. Since you're still missing the spell slots, CL and other resources, it probably breaks about even.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Giving back what you lost is good. White Dragonspawn is good because it gives a level of sorcerer casting amongst other goodies, so you trade out BAB and saves and, initially, HP (dragonspawn pulls ahead at ECL 6).

[awa]

it also depends on optimization level losing wish or shape change is way worse then losing meteor swarm or crushing hand.

[Segev]

Just to throw another wrinkle at this question, consider the possibility that the level 3 wizard could cast alter self, or the level 7 wizard could cast polymorph, or the level 17 wizard could cast shapechange to turn into the race in question, while the guy who's legitimately a level 2, 6, or 16 wizard would still be a level behind in CL.

So you want to consider probably (Su) or (Sp) abilities that aren't replicable by those spells (and (Su) can be obtained with shapechange).

In general, if you're playing a race, the mechanical advantages have to be unique or different enough to make the loss of the CL worthwhile for most of the time you'll play it. "Power" isn't going to cut it, and given the ability to use magic to assume racial forms and powers, it's going to need to be something that having constant and early access to is worth the eventual "catch-up" effect of having the right spell.

Racial flight at 40 ft. (good) is pretty nice for the first 8 levels or so, but overland flight makes it somewhat redundant, with its long duration, by level 9.

[Flickerdart]

It would need to be a scaling template/race, in vein of Phrenic. There's no single feature that's both relevant at level 20 and not immensely overpowering at level 1.

[LordOfCain]

+9,000,000 Int, +50 CL, +1234 HP, casting as a level 400000000 wizard and any feat for free

[Aldrakan]

+9,000,000 Int, +50 CL, +1234 HP, casting as a level 400000000 wizard and any feat for free

I do seem to recall someone arguing that "being the Tarrasque" was not worth +1 LA in a previous thread.

[Inevitability]

I do seem to recall someone arguing that "being the Tarrasque" was not worth +1 LA in a previous thread.

To expand: they were arguing the tarrasque at ECL 1 (with all RHD and other stuff) was a more balanced character than an ECL 1 wizard.

[Stealth Marmot]

To expand: they were arguing the tarrasque at ECL 1 (with all RHD and other stuff) was a more balanced character than an ECL 1 wizard.

A +4 in the primary spellcasting stat would probably be enough of a payoff, between the added spells and the increased spell DCs.

[Inevitability]

A +4 in the primary spellcasting stat would probably be enough of a payoff, between the added spells and the increased spell DCs.

Arguably: it's probably more useful than a regular caster level at even ECL's, but at odd ECL's it's just not worth the relatively large power boost granted by a new spell level.

[Segev]

Arguably: it's probably more useful than a regular caster level at even ECL's, but at odd ECL's it's just not worth the relatively large power boost granted by a new spell level.

To be fair, that's actually a valid trade-off, though.

[Troacctid]

To expand: they were arguing the tarrasque at ECL 1 (with all RHD and other stuff) was a more balanced character than an ECL 1 wizard.
Ahahahaha, I remember that, that was ridiculous, haha. XD

[TotallyNotEvil]

A +4 in the primary spellcasting stat would probably be enough of a payoff, between the added spells and the increased spell DCs.

"Aka less than many playgrounders would lead you to believe."

Sorcerers manage fine, an übermensch wizard can certainly do better.

[khadgar567]

A +4 in the primary spellcasting stat would probably be enough of a payoff, between the added spells and the increased spell DCs.


To be fair, that's actually a valid trade-off, though.
this is good but for one LA I think we can atleast add one or two points in one stat of players choice will be even more good .

[ExLibrisMortis]

I think a +6 to your casting stat is pretty good, on an otherwise good LA +0 race. The extra spells are pretty good, and boosted save DCs are nice. It's especially good for a more casting-stat synergy-based build, such as a sorcadin, intuitive attack druid, or zen archer.

For example, this is a wizard/cleric's spells/day, compared between certain adjacent levels. I'm using a starting intelligence/wisdom of 16*, comparing +0, +2, +4, and +6 racial intelligence/wisdom.


Level (base int/wis)
+0
+2
+4
+6

4/3/2
4 (17)
4/4/3
4/4/3
4/5/3
4/5/4

4/3/2/1
5 (17)
4/4/3/2
4/4/3/2
4/5/3/2
4/5/4/2

4/4/3/3/2
8 (20)
4/6/4/4/3
4/6/5/4/3
4/6/5/5/3
4/6/5/5/4

4/4/3/3/2/1
9 (20)
4/6/4/4/3/2
4/6/5/4/3/2
4/6/5/5/3/2
4/6/5/5/4/2

4/4/4/4/3/3/2
12 (23)
4/6/6/5/4/4/3
4/6/6/6/4/4/3
4/6/6/6/5/4/3
4/6/6/6/5/5/3

4/4/4/4/3/3/2/1
13 (23)
4/6/6/5/4/4/3/2
4/6/6/6/4/4/3/2
4/6/6/6/5/4/3/2
4/7/6/6/5/5/3/2

4/4/4/4/4/4/3/3/2
16 (26)
4/6/6/6/6/5/4/4/3
4/7/6/6/6/6/4/4/3
4/7/7/6/6/6/5/4/3
4/7/7/7/6/6/5/5/3

4/4/4/4/4/4/3/3/2/1
17 (26)
4/6/6/6/6/5/4/4/3/2
4/7/6/6/6/6/4/4/3/2
4/7/7/6/6/6/5/4/3/2
4/7/7/7/6/6/5/5/3/2

4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/3/3
19 (31)
4/7/7/6/6/6/6/5/4/4
4/7/7/7/6/6/6/6/5/4
4/7/7/7/7/6/6/6/5/5
4/8/7/7/7/7/6/6/5/5

4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4
20 (32)
4/7/7/7/6/6/6/6/5/5
4/7/7/7/7/6/6/6/6/5
4/8/7/7/7/7/6/6/6/6
4/8/8/7/7/7/7/6/6/6


When would you rather pick the lower even level, if you could pick from the +6 column (instead of the +0 column)?
At ECL 5, +1 LA means the loss of third-level spells.
You have 4/5/4 instead of 4/4/3/2, which is straight-up worse: the same number of spells per day, but at a lower level.
Your total number of spell levels per day is 13 instead of 16.

At ECL 9, you're losing fifth-level spells, but you're getting more back.
You have 4/6/5/5/4 instead of 4/6/4/4/3/2, getting an extra spell per day overall.
Your total number of spell levels per day is 47 instead of 48.

At ECL 13, it's seventh-level spells you lose, but again, more bonus spells.
You have 4/6/6/6/5/5/3 instead of 4/6/6/5/4/4/3/2, for an extra two spells per day overall.
Your total number of spell levels per day is 99 instead of 101.

At ECL 17, the loss of ninth-level spells is a classic thing-to-be-avoided.
You have 4/7/7/7/6/6/5/5/3 instead of 4/6/6/6/6/5/4/4/3/2, for an extra four spells per day overall.
Your total number of spell levels per day is 185 instead of 169.

At ECL 20, it's advantageous in terms of spells.
4/8/7/7/7/7/6/6/5/5 beats 4/7/7/7/6/6/6/6/5/5 by having an extra 1st, 4th, and 5th, with the same high-level slots.
Your total number of spell levels per day is 269 instead of 259.

In all cases, you lose one caster level, one HD and all its benefits, and maximum skill ranks.

It's clear that the tradeoff keeps getting better as you level up, but doesn't really catch up until all spell levels have been learned.
It's clear that the trade-off is particularly unfavourable on the odd ECLs, when you're losing spell levels.
It's also clear that casting stat boosts smaller than +6 simply do not cut it spell-wise.

If this was all there is to casting stat boosts, you'd need a boost of +8 or more to come out ahead. However, on the even ECLs, you're ahead on spells per day, losing only a spell of your highest level and one of [highest - 3] to gain one to six bonus spells. Together with the increased save DCs and skill points (or will saves/charisma synergy), that's pretty good.


This analysis is not final by any means; particularly, the value of things besides spell slots is not quantified. However, I think a good LA +0 race, such as an illumian, becomes a good LA +1 race with +6 to a casting stat, with +8 being quite strong (too strong?), and +4 too weak.



*All level increases go into the relevant casting stat. Magic items are assumed at certain levels; examples are given for intelligence boosters.
Most items are assumed when they cost less than a third of WBL. The headband of intellect +6 is assumed at level 14, instead of 13, because it enables the pattern, and makes the comparison at level 12-13 work more straightforwardly.
headband of intellect +2 - 4000 gp - level 6.
headband of intellect +4 - 16 000 gp - level 10.
headband of intellect +6 - 36 000 gp - level 14.
tome of clear thought +5 - 137 500 gp - level 18.

[icefractal]

You can already get +2 to your casting stat at LA +0, so I don't think +4 would be enough by itself. Combine it with something useful though, and it would be. For example, being Tiny or smaller, being incorporeal some/all of the time, flight if it's better than what Alter Self can get you, being a type with good immunities, or something else of that nature.

[Stryyke]

Maybe just use ECL for caster level and spell selection, and class level for the saves, hp, and whatnot. If I was ECL 7 with LA+4, I would have number of spells, and spell selection of a 7th level caster; but the hp, saves, skills, etc of a 3rd level caster. It would take a bit more book-keeping, but the primary issue with LA+x and casters would be squared away. Could even be a bit too powerful.

[Ezekiul]

I think having a racial requirement for a prestige class could make up for it (think beholder mage or illithid savant).

Or one that has a accelerated caster level for a racial spell-like ability (duergar for example), but only if it is advantageous (like for crafting magic items to make up for the loss).

[John Longarrow]

Something to remember when dealing with ECL, you are normally not comparing yourself to another caster but to the encounters you are expected to survive through.

Wizard 14 VS Wizard 15 is relevant when you consider that your party will be facing CR 15+ monsters. If the template gives you something that is useful from lvl 1 up, say scaling SR, that makes some encounters much more survivable for you. A pixie wizard 11 VS a wizard 15 shows an example of this. Pixie gets SR 26 with a +6 to int. Most spell casting monsters don't get special ways to beat SR, so the pixie has an edge against casting monsters.

Pixie won't have 7th and 8th level spells yet, so depending on how the campaign goes this could be either a massive penalty to the pixie or an acceptable trade.

Either way, this does illustrate a "hard to replicate" ability that may make you want to run the pixie.

[RoboEmperor]

The answer is simple. If it's something you want, it is. If it's not, then it isn't. So the question is... What is your goal? What do you want to do?

Consider class dips instead of +LA Races. A dip in fighter gives you a ton of free feats and +1 BAB. It is good for a Gish and qualifies you for Eldritch Knight. If however being a gish does not interest you then it's horrible. So, if you want to Gish, dip is worth the caster level drop, if you don't want to gish, it's not.

Likewise +2 to casting stat results in a +1 spell DC which is a +5% increase in success chance. If your goal is to reach Wish and Shapechange a.s.a.p. then that race is not worth the loss of a caster level. If your goal however is to have the strongest spell DC for Charm Monster and highest success chance for the resulting Charisma check it is totally worth it.

In terms of PURE OPTIMIZATION in a CIVILIZED world absolutely nothing beats a +1 caster level. Shapechange = Free Wishes = God of the world, so nothing beats hitting that as early as possible. The only reason you will think otherwise is for survivability.

If you are a 8CON wizard, then necropolitan is totally worth the level loss as it will boost your survivability significantly and gives you a much higher chance of actually reaching level 17.

If your world is UNCIVILIZED, as in spell shops don't exist, scrolls are extremely hard to come by, and your DM house rules you get no free spells on level up, then going a sorcerer is better than a wizard, and sorcerers are 1 level behind wizards in terms of spells.

There is also FLUFF considerations. Tieflings are Demon/Devil blooded so you can have fun backstories with who your father is. Aasimar are celestial blooded. Both live longer than humans and NPCs treat you differently than humans. D&D is a LONG game so play someone whose roleplay is fun even at the cost of a caster level.

[Troacctid]

The answer is simple. If it's something you want, it is. If it's not, then it isn't. So the question is... What is your goal? What do you want to do?
That's not really true. For example, I always want extra spells known. But a +1 LA template that gives you an extra known spell and zero other benefits is clearly not worth it.