A-Game Build Competition

[Nashira]

So, the A-Game Paladin is my favorite ever build and with that in mind I was curious if anyone would be interested in a competition for similar builds for less than optimal base classes. My purpose for this post is to see if anyone is interested in competing and what classes people might want to suggest for the first few rounds. If I get enough people interested I'll write up the rules and post round one shortly.

Cheers

[Thurbane]

I'm not exactly a TO guru, but this definitely sounds promising.

[Droopy McCool]

I'm in the same boat as Thurbane, not a great optimizer myself. However, I would very much like to see what people can do in this respect. If you're counting spectators, add one to the list.

McCool

[Jormengand]

This could be interesting, but the A-game paladin is not actually a legal build:


That paladin can't cast spells (except the ones from SAO) because power word aeshkrau doesn't get rid of the minimum wisdom.
It also has both Milil and Mystra as patron deities, which IIRC isn't allowed in the Forgotten Realms--you have to pick one or the other.

The concept, however, is still interesting enough.

[Crake]

This could be interesting, but the A-game paladin is not actually a legal build:



The concept, however, is still interesting enough.

The minimum wisdom can be fixed via a simple +4 wis item iirc (or by your DM being a bro and making paladin casting cha based like it always should have been :smalltongue:) I can't speak for the deity stuff in forgotten realms though, since I don't touch that stuff, I run strictly only my homebrew world, but if you take things out of the context of forgotten realms, you can probably find a way to make it fit.

Edit: Looking back at the build, I think the idea was to simply cast mostly wizard spells, which had int requirement instead, which the A-game paladin met

[Nashira]

The A-Game paladin being not 100% legal is not something I was aware of, though that just means I can give people something to improve on. That said, I'm thinking more along the lines of the spirit than the execution. I'm glad to see at least a few people are interested in this idea. I'm going to start crafting rules and should hopefully have something posted by the weekend.

[Inevitability]

Sure, I'm interested. Will it be kind of like an Iron Chef with base classes?

[Chulehdoido]

@Droopy McCool
You forgot the last post of Lord Drako. Lord of Sevenfold Shadow
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?497759-Lord-of-the-Sevenfold-Shadows(COUNTERING-FAMOUS-OPTIMIZED-CHARACTERS-BUILDS)

[LordOfCain]

I would be interested in a competition of this type.

[Inevitability]

@Droopy McCool
You forgot the last post of Lord Drako. Lord of Sevenfold Shadow
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?497759-Lord-of-the-Sevenfold-Shadows(COUNTERING-FAMOUS-OPTIMIZED-CHARACTERS-BUILDS)

How funny: here I thought the Mockery of Swadloons was created by Ragevillain, who most definitely wasn't Lord Drako?

[Chulehdoido]

He's Lord Drako. A little bird told me.

[LordOfCain]

He's Lord Drako. A little bird told me.
You have speak with animals? As a spell or a spell-like ability? :smalltongue:

[Chulehdoido]

You have speak with animals? As a spell or a spell-like ability? :smalltongue:

Supernatural Ability: SR No. You lose ! :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbi ggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[LordOfCain]

Supernatural Ability: SR No. You lose ! :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbi ggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin: So now I can't stop you from talking with bunnies... On topic: What would potential restrictions be? Must be X class 20?

[Grod_The_Giant]

So now I can't stop you from talking with bunnies... On topic: What would potential restrictions be? Must be X class 20?
I feel like at least 17 levels is a good minimum; I could also see "must function as a pure class, but can present ~3 levels of dips for general improvement."

[Deadline]

How funny: here I thought the Mockery of Swadloons was created by Ragevillain, who most definitely wasn't Lord Drako?

He's not LordDrako in the same way that Vampire is not LordDrako, ice-assassin is not LordDrako, and Chulehdoido is not LordDrako. If only he'd change his argument as often as he creates new accounts to replace the banned ones.

I'm assuming that the reason the latest sock puppet hasn't been banned is because no one has reported him yet.

Edit: I missed ice-assassin in the list. I think it's complete now.

[Chulehdoido]

I will find him!!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v625/griffengreen/wzfz_zps8939e5e5.jpg

[Inevitability]

Dear ice-Vamp Chuledarkvillain, your comments have gone from obnoxious to tiresome to tragic to completely unrelated to the discussion. Please stop.

[stanprollyright]

Song of White Raven Bardzilla that gets into Sublime Chord.

Zhentarim Soldier Dungeoncrasher Thug Fighter w/ Barbarian dip.

Wildshape Ranger 15/Scout 3/MoMF 2 with Swift Hunter, Natural Spell, and Sword of the Arcane Order.

[Nashira]

To answer some of the questions. Yes, it would be like iron chef with base classes. I'm thinking at least 15 levels of the base class, the base class functionality must be at the center of the build, so if you prestige into something and that prestige class becomes the focus of the build that's no good. And bonus finesse points for going the full 20 levels.

[Troacctid]

You're going to find yourself running out of material very quickly. There's only a limited number of base classes with enough design space to work with.

[Nashira]

You're going to find yourself running out of material very quickly. There's only a limited number of base classes with enough design space to work with.
I know. I've already been thinking about what to do once I run out of material. I've got some ideas, but I'll reserve those for later.

[Hunterx]

Sure I'm in, I just kinda made a build involving paladin of freedom, still finishing it off but almost there.

[Crake]

I feel like at least 17 levels is a good minimum; I could also see "must function as a pure class, but can present ~3 levels of dips for general improvement."

I feel like, in keeping with the spirit of the A-Game paladin, it should be 1-20 of the same base class, with an emphasis on playability at all levels.

[Thurbane]

I feel like, in keeping with the spirit of the A-Game paladin, it should be 1-20 of the same base class, with an emphasis on playability at all levels.

I agree with this. ^

[Troacctid]

I feel like, in keeping with the spirit of the A-Game paladin, it should be 1-20 of the same base class, with an emphasis on playability at all levels.

That's going to limit you even further. The A-Game Paladin build as originally presented was part of a series of build showcases that had no such restriction, IIRC.

[Nashira]

I feel like, in keeping with the spirit of the A-Game paladin, it should be 1-20 of the same base class, with an emphasis on playability at all levels.

My thought right now is either minimum of 15 levels with bonus points for using more, or changing the level restriction depending on the class and available material. Please let me know your thoughts on this, I value all of your opinions.

I'm worried about 1-20 builds on some of the base classes that have little to no support because there is little room to customize, and I do favor penalizing builds that multi class, especially those who multi class and lose the original flavor of the class.

[Hunterx]

Just to give you an idea of what I did with the build I made. It is a full support build but has average attacks. It totally compliments the flavour if the paladin without being all paladin. Yes it is not the paladin from the PHB but the PHB should have had all alignment Paladins available in the first place.

[stanprollyright]

I feel like, in keeping with the spirit of the A-Game paladin, it should be 1-20 of the same base class, with an emphasis on playability at all levels.

Disagree with this, because of:


You're going to find yourself running out of material very quickly. There's only a limited number of base classes with enough design space to work with.

There are some others that are pretty commonly known, especially when those are already the best options for that class. Zhentarim Soldier/Dungeoncrasher/Thug Fighter is really the best you can do. I mean, Druid: with Natural Spell, Dragon Wild Shape, and Assume (Su). Done. There isn't much to improve that. Any decent Bardzilla build would qualify, even without PrCs. If there was an A-Game Monk, everyone would be playing it already. What would your A-game Sorcerer look like?

[Muggins]

What would your A-game Sorcerer look like?
I think the point is to optimise low-Tier classes, not spellcasters. Similar to the A-Game Paladin itself, for all its rule concerns.

[remetagross]

What does "A-game" actually stands for?

[Inevitability]

What does "A-game" actually stands for?

'A-game' means something to the effect of 'the best possible'. So the A-game paladin is a strong character that's still a paladin.

[remetagross]

Ok, thanks Dire_Stirge!

[Heliomance]

If there was an A-Game Monk, everyone would be playing it already.

There is, though I can't remember what it's called or who did it. Someone came up with a sickeningly powerful TO Monk 20 build that used the unique wording on the Monk's Unarmed Strike to enchant their entire body as a weapon somehow. The final build was up there in power with the best of them.

[Troacctid]

There is, though I can't remember what it's called or who did it. Someone came up with a sickeningly powerful TO Monk 20 build that used the unique wording on the Monk's Unarmed Strike to enchant their entire body as a weapon somehow. The final build was up there in power with the best of them.
That doesn't work by RAW though. Also, I haven't seen the build, but I'm skeptical as to whether the later levels of monk contribute anything to that strategy.

[Inevitability]

Also, I haven't seen the build, but I'm skeptical as to whether the later levels of monk contribute anything to that strategy.

I'm not sure this bit is actually relevant. The original A-game paladin build could also be improved by not taking the last levels in paladin, but that's not what it's about. It's about creating a paladin 20 that can be viable at all levels.

Similarly, as long as this monk 20 is viable at all levels, it can be considered an A-game monk.

[Troacctid]

I'm not sure this bit is actually relevant. The original A-game paladin build could also be improved by not taking the last levels in paladin, but that's not what it's about. It's about creating a paladin 20 that can be viable at all levels.

Similarly, as long as this monk 20 is viable at all levels, it can be considered an A-game monk.
I disagree, actually—the later levels of paladin improve spellcasting and inspire courage, both of which are focal points of the build, as well as improving the divine spirit with unique abilities that you couldn't get elsewhere. (Still way less powerful than a special mount btw, I don't know why Tempest Stormwind thought it would be worth it to trade that away when it's by far the most powerful ability of the class, but I digress.) Maybe there's an opportunity cost, but you're clearly getting something out of your investment.

On the other hand, the later levels of monk just don't really do anything.

[Darrin]

In my opinion, classes that could use an "A-Game" build:

Monk
Hexblade
Dragon Shaman
Soulknife
Divine Mind
Lurk
Marshall
Ninja
Rogue
CW Samurai
Fighter
Swashbuckler
Knight
Favored Soul
Shugenja
Healer
Soulborn
Shadowcaster
Truenamer

I'm not so sure if we need a competition, per se... we could just pick a class and collaborate on it until most of the contributors are happy with it. This assumes we're taking the build for the full 20 levels. If there's a "17 levels + 3 levels of dips", then I could maybe see a competition over which dips work best, but I would also guess there still wouldn't be a lot of variety to really judge one entry against the others.



Similarly, as long as this monk 20 is viable at all levels, it can be considered an A-game monk.

Monk has already been addressed pretty well with Tippy's Terrifically Terrible Trial (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial/page25&p=15474863#post15474863). However, as much as I like Rubik's build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial/page25&p=15474863#post15474863), I'm not quite sure I'd call it an "A-Game" build because it uses some sources and interpretations that might not be widely accepted outside of Tippy's table.

Likewise, I'm not quite sure how Truenamer can be optimized outside of just following Zaq's handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?214115-In-the-Beginning-Was-the-Word-and-the-Word-Was-Suck-A-Guide-to-Truenamers).

A couple of these classes have semi-official "fixes", and many more have RAW issues that are ambiguous, contradictory, or impenetrable to reason. I'm not sure how easy it will be to navigate these issues and still present something that could be played at most tables.

[Jormengand]

Likewise, I'm not quite sure how Truenamer can be optimized outside of just following Zaq's handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?214115-In-the-Beginning-Was-the-Word-and-the-Word-Was-Suck-A-Guide-to-Truenamers).

Oh, I am. :smallbiggrin:

[Crake]

In my opinion, classes that could use an "A-Game" build:

Monk
Hexblade
Dragon Shaman
Soulknife
Divine Mind
Lurk
Marshall
Ninja
Rogue
CW Samurai
Fighter
Swashbuckler
Knight
Favored Soul
Shugenja
Healer
Soulborn
Shadowcaster
Truenamer

Could add Ranger to this list, and possibly some of the tier 3 classes like bard. I would actually quite like to see an A-Game bard that was 1-20 bard, rather than focusing on prc and a sublime chord dip. Preferably also one that didn't take words of creation, because not all of us want to play an exalted bard people, come on.

[stanprollyright]

I would actually quite like to see an A-Game bard that was 1-20 bard, rather than focusing on prc and a sublime chord dip. Preferably also one that didn't take words of creation, because not all of us want to play an exalted bard people, come on.

Easy: Bardic Knack ACF; DFI (1st), TWF (human), Song of the Heart (Inspire Competence), Knowledge Devotion (3rd), Snowflake Wardance (6th), Martial Study: Douse the Flames (9th), Martial Stance: Leading the Charge (12th), Song of White Raven (15th), Versatile Spellcaster (18th).

[GilesTheCleric]

There is, though I can't remember what it's called or who did it. Someone came up with a sickeningly powerful TO Monk 20 build that used the unique wording on the Monk's Unarmed Strike to enchant their entire body as a weapon somehow. The final build was up there in power with the best of them.

You might be remembering one of Rubik's builds for a competition Tippy ran a while back; I think the goal was to defeat all the elder evils with one character.

Edit: I clearly didn't read enough posts down to see this was already mentioned. Sorry.

[Crake]

Easy: Bardic Knack ACF; DFI (1st), TWF (human), Song of the Heart (Inspire Competence), Knowledge Devotion (3rd), Snowflake Wardance (6th), Martial Study: Douse the Flames (9th), Martial Stance: Leading the Charge (12th), Song of White Raven (15th), Versatile Spellcaster (18th).

That's hardly an A-game bard, more like B game or C game really, kinda really just a generic bardblade build, and a kinda bad one at that, because you had to blow two feats for what you could normally get with a 1 level dip. I understand that the post was likely intentionally facetious, but eh :smallconfused:

[remetagross]

That's hardly an A-game bard, more like B game or C game really, kinda really just a generic bardblade build, and a kinda bad one at that, because you had to blow two feats for what you could normally get with a 1 level dip. I understand that the post was likely intentionally facetious, but eh :smallconfused:

As the point is to take all 20 levels in the same class, no Warblade/Crusader dip possible, hence Martial Study/Martial Stance!

[WhamBamSam]

In my opinion, classes that could use an "A-Game" build:

Monk
Hexblade
Dragon Shaman
Soulknife
Divine Mind
Lurk
Marshall
Ninja
Rogue
CW Samurai
Fighter
Swashbuckler
Knight
Favored Soul
Shugenja
Healer
Soulborn
Shadowcaster
Truenamer

I'm not so sure if we need a competition, per se... we could just pick a class and collaborate on it until most of the contributors are happy with it. This assumes we're taking the build for the full 20 levels. If there's a "17 levels + 3 levels of dips", then I could maybe see a competition over which dips work best, but I would also guess there still wouldn't be a lot of variety to really judge one entry against the others.I rather like the collaborative approach idea. It seems appropriate to make it more like the "Optimize this feat" threads and less like Iron Chef. I like a lot of these suggestions, as well as Crake's Bard and Ranger suggestions.

I had kicked around a few ideas for an A-Game Marshal prior to this thread actually, though it's really hard to justify taking more than 3 levels or so (maybe 4 if you hang out with someone who can really leverage a move action, like a Shadow Pouncer), especially when you can't change your aura more than once per round.

Also, related to the "3-5 levels of dips" point, how would we feel about RHD or LA? I can think of a few LA+1 races which could be helpful in optimizing single-classed build.

[stanprollyright]

That's hardly an A-game bard, more like B game or C game really, kinda really just a generic bardblade build, and a kinda bad one at that, because you had to blow two feats for what you could normally get with a 1 level dip. I understand that the post was likely intentionally facetious, but eh :smallconfused:

You asked for 1-20 Bard with no dips, no PrCs, and no WoC, knowing full well that those are the most powerful build options for the class. What did you expect? Was I supposed to get 9th level spells and +10 inspire courage as a swift action some other way?

[Crake]

You asked for 1-20 Bard with no dips, no PrCs, and no WoC, knowing full well that those are the most powerful build options for the class. What did you expect? Was I supposed to get 9th level spells and +10 inspire courage as a swift action some other way?

my point was that it was far from A-game level, and that it was a fairly cookie cutter build as well, and that I'm fairly sure you could do something far better with it.

Also song of the white raven is so bad, it's literally just saving you one turn's attack in exchange for 3 feats. Not to mention that making your inspire courage a swift action means it cant be paired with inspirational boost or a medallion of courage.

When something goes from a 1 level dip and a single feat to taking up over a third of your lifetime feats, it no longer remains a viable choice, and thus is not A-game material.

What I expected, was someone finding all the most optimal choices for the class, and building an incredible powerhouse that nobody would have expected to see out of the class, just like the paladin, which people generally prc out of as soon as they can, because, as you said, prc out is the most powerful build option for the class.

But you know what, why am I even arguing this point, we both know your original post was just a flick of the nose at the base bard class. I would like to see someone build a proper A-game bard that does for the bard what the A-game paladin did for the paladin.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Hmm. Bard 20... let's see... Savage Bard gets us some summoning, and the Wild Cohort feat gets us an animal companion. More sources of DFI damage are always good. Because we're casting spontaneously, we can add stuff like Ashbound that would normally only be accessible to Druids... say we go Silverbrow Human and use the Eberron Campaign Setting trade-offs, then we can get Wild Cohort, DFI, Ashbound, Greenbound Summoning, and Song of the Heart all by 6th level. (In that order, too; that gives a decent enough progression). Words of Creation can come at 9th level, when there's a decent bonus to double; or you can go the Obtain Familiar/Improved Familiar route; or you can do the TWF/Snowflake Wardance route. Any way you slice it, you can come up with a small army of flaming animal-vegetable monsters. Add the usual ACF suspects-- Bardic Knack, Healing Hymn, Hymn of Fortification-- for good measure.

How's that?

EDIT: You could also try for a SAD volley archer build using Charming the Arrow, though feats would be painfully tight. Especially since you'd need to take Dragontouched as a prereq for DFI. I'd also be curious about what you could do with Metamagic Song; free metamagic is about as OP as you can get in 3.X, but the limit on "no higher than you could normally cast" makes it hard to abuse things like Persistent Spell. Maybe someone else can come up with a clever way to get around that?

[WhamBamSam]

Hmm. Bard 20... let's see... Savage Bard gets us some summoning, and the Wild Cohort feat gets us an animal companion. More sources of DFI damage are always good. Because we're casting spontaneously, we can add stuff like Ashbound that would normally only be accessible to Druids... say we go Silverbrow Human and use the Eberron Campaign Setting trade-offs, then we can get Wild Cohort, DFI, Ashbound, Greenbound Summoning, and Song of the Heart all by 6th level. (In that order, too; that gives a decent enough progression). Words of Creation can come at 9th level, when there's a decent bonus to double; or you can go the Obtain Familiar/Improved Familiar route; or you can do the TWF/Snowflake Wardance route. Any way you slice it, you can come up with a small army of flaming animal-vegetable monsters. Add the usual ACF suspects-- Bardic Knack, Healing Hymn, Hymn of Fortification-- for good measure.

How's that?

EDIT: You could also try for a SAD volley archer build using Charming the Arrow, though feats would be painfully tight. Especially since you'd need to take Dragontouched as a prereq for DFI. I'd also be curious about what you could do with Metamagic Song; free metamagic is about as OP as you can get in 3.X, but the limit on "no higher than you could normally cast" makes it hard to abuse things like Persistent Spell. Maybe someone else can come up with a clever way to get around that?Unseelie Fey Silverbrow Human qualifies for both Charming the Arrow and DFI.

My thought was Nature Bard with Heighten Spell, Talfirian Song, and Metamagic Song. With Talfirian Song, you can use Metamagic Song to boost spells up to a 9th level slot equivalent, so you can use all your Bardic music uses that don't actually go away with all the Bardic music abilities to fuel metamagic. Probably not a great idea though, and doesn't have enough reason not to go Sublime Chord. Really just about any A-Game Bard build is going to have that problem.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Unseelie Fey Silverbrow Human qualifies for both Charming the Arrow and DFI.

My thought was Nature Bard with Heighten Spell, Talfirian Song, and Metamagic Song. With Talfirian Song, you can use Metamagic Song to boost spells up to a 9th level slot equivalent, so you can use all your Bardic music uses that don't actually go away with all the Bardic music abilities to fuel metamagic. Probably not a great idea though, and doesn't have enough reason not to go Sublime Chord. Really just about any A-Game Bard build is going to have that problem.
Good ones. Talfirian Song does look like the key for Metamagic Song. I don't think Nature Bard is worth it, though; Wild Cohort is close enough (you're only 1 hit die behind) to not be worth losing one of your best tricks (Inspire Courage).


Though I feel like "A-game Bard" is something of a misnomer here. Crake was scornful of the generic Bardblade build, but I feel like that's mostly because the Bard is sort of a solved problem. How do you make a good Bard? Take multiple attacks, Dragonfire Inspiration and a bit of Inspire Courage optimization; now you're throwing out strong damage while still offering great support, skills, and solid spellcasting. It's a T3 class; it's not hard to make it perform well once you get outside core.

[WhamBamSam]

Good ones. Talfirian Song does look like the key for Metamagic Song. I don't think Nature Bard is worth it, though; Wild Cohort is close enough (you're only 1 hit die behind) to not be worth losing one of your best tricks (Inspire Courage).Probably true. My thought process was that if Bardic Music uses were going to become metamagic fuel, I might as well trade away the other things they might go toward. Still, if you have the feats to spare, Talfirian Song+Metamagic Song might be worth it. You can probably do all your daily performances with 8 Bardic music uses tops, so if the metamagic trick comes online at mid to high levels, it's probably good for a few free Twinnings or Persists.

[Crake]

Good ones. Talfirian Song does look like the key for Metamagic Song. I don't think Nature Bard is worth it, though; Wild Cohort is close enough (you're only 1 hit die behind) to not be worth losing one of your best tricks (Inspire Courage).


Though I feel like "A-game Bard" is something of a misnomer here. Crake was scornful of the generic Bardblade build, but I feel like that's mostly because the Bard is sort of a solved problem. How do you make a good Bard? Take multiple attacks, Dragonfire Inspiration and a bit of Inspire Courage optimization; now you're throwing out strong damage while still offering great support, skills, and solid spellcasting. It's a T3 class; it's not hard to make it perform well once you get outside core.

The main reason I was scornful of that particular build was because it put so much effort in to get song of the white raven, a feat that I generally consider sub-par, in a hurried attempt to emulate the typical bardblade build that comes with warblade/crusader levels. Your build on the other hand didn't have anything at all so wasteful, instead focusing on doing what the bard does best, buffing the masses, while ensuring said masses are in fact around.

[Soranar]

I think I could handle a few (I have a few ideas for a ninja or a healer)

but I agree, competitions in this case would be a little underwhelming since we're all locked in a class 20 build so all you can really play with are feats /templates/races and ACF


I'm not sure a tier 2 class like the favored soul really needs an ''A game'''. It's a full caster with a large spell list, it doesn't need much to be optimized.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The main reason I was scornful of that particular build was because it put so much effort in to get song of the white raven, a feat that I generally consider sub-par, in a hurried attempt to emulate the typical bardblade build that comes with warblade/crusader levels. Your build on the other hand didn't have anything at all so wasteful, instead focusing on doing what the bard does best, buffing the masses, while ensuring said masses are in fact around.
Fair enough.

[animewatcha]

Since we are doing base classes, why not throw dragon mag into there? Would make number of options skyrocket.