Ice Assassin Help

[kalos72]

My group wants to use this spell for some very specific missions but I had a few questions that aren't answered in the description.

What happens if the "target" dies? And maybe, can you make an IA out of a dead person if you have material components?

Strictly by RAW, I think this is another spell that has alot of openings...

[Muggins]

Ice Assassin is a well-known spell with some very bad RAW supporting it. You're better off just following the RAI and your gut.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Congrats, you've found one of the most difficult spells in the game to deal with when its in the hands of a clever player.

If the target dies, you are now in control of that target's replacement, providing you or he is able to make the body disappear and insert him into the target's life without notice.

Nothing in the spell prevents you from making a copy of a dead guy except access to the requisite component.

I -strongly- advise houseruling that no character option can obviate the need for the component. I seriously cannot stress strongly enough how bad this can get if you allow them to create copies of anyone they know without requiring they have access to that person.

[John Longarrow]

Ice Assassin + Eschew Material is a known attempt to derail games.

Of course I can IA my own <<insert giant nasty thing here>>>, I don't need the material component!

[Mordaedil]

Eschew Material doesn't work like that. The component cost for Ice Assassin is 20,000 gold, Eschew Material only covers materials worth less than 1gp.

Unless you mean it can work without the ice statue, which is kind of a finangly way of reading the requirement as if there two material component requirements instead of one mixed with one-another.

[Nifft]

IMHO the most expedient fix is to just ban Ice Assassin.

It's a bad spell, and it's not the only bad spell, so setting a precedent is useful here.

[Stealth Marmot]

I imagine this to be a sort of writing exercise. When a being exists only to kill a person, what happens once the person is dead? What sort of existential crisis do they have to go through?

[Mordaedil]

Well, it is a simulacrum, so maybe it tries to do what it knows best and just either go on with it's inherent life until it dies and melts away or until it decides it needs to permanently destroy the soul of it's source and travels the planes to find him and destroy himself as a petitioner.

[icefractal]

Eschew Material doesn't work like that. The component cost for Ice Assassin is 20,000 gold, Eschew Material only covers materials worth less than 1gp.

Unless you mean it can work without the ice statue, which is kind of a finangly way of reading the requirement as if there two material component requirements instead of one mixed with one-another.That's why people usually use Wish (for a scroll of Ice Assassin: [target creature]) as the method. It's more expensive, but it avoids any arguments about worthless/priceless, and also allows you to choose who the controller will be.

But I agree with Kelb_Pantera - I would personally make the dead person components mandatory no matter what, because things get not only broken but also difficult to adjudicate when you allow copying hypothetical creatures.

Incidentally, Pathfinder Simulacrum has this problem, since it just requires a likeness of the target. There are at least a dozen ways it can lead to a confusing result that nobody knows how to resolve, and the dev response has been "Oh right, Simulacrum ... the GM should probably homebrew how that one works."

[John Longarrow]

Eschew Material doesn't work like that. The component cost for Ice Assassin is 20,000 gold, Eschew Material only covers materials worth less than 1gp.

Unless you mean it can work without the ice statue, which is kind of a finangly way of reading the requirement as if there two material component requirements instead of one mixed with one-another.

The "Some portion of the creature to be duplicated (hair, nail, and so on) must be placed inside the ice statue as it is constructed." portion of the material components, before the line starting "In addition".

I've heard people argue that eschew material means they don't need the "some portion" as it has no GP value.

So for 5,000xp and 20,000 gp you can ice assassin Demogorgon. Pretty cheap way to get something like that.

[Mordaedil]

That's why people usually use Wish (for a scroll of Ice Assassin: [target creature]) as the method. It's more expensive, but it avoids any arguments about worthless/priceless, and also allows you to choose who the controller will be.


How do you get that to fly at any table? A Wish spell cannot do this. If a DM allows it, they are directly violating the text of the spell.


The "Some portion of the creature to be duplicated (hair, nail, and so on) must be placed inside the ice statue as it is constructed." portion of the material components, before the line starting "In addition".

I've heard people argue that eschew material means they don't need the "some portion" as it has no GP value.

So for 5,000xp and 20,000 gp you can ice assassin Demogorgon. Pretty cheap way to get something like that.

You could argue this, however it assumes that the portion of the creature to be duplicated is worthless. Which it might not entirely be. That's kinda like arguing you don't need a piece of a person to cast True Ressurrection to revive them. That means that the person is inherently worthless.

I see what you mean though, but at my table the Ice Assassin spell would probably just not "fire" without a given target. I can see why the spell description RAW can be confusing. It's a bit weird for me as I've always applied RAI for years before stumbling back on these forums.

[ryu]

How do you get that to fly at any table? A Wish spell cannot do this. If a DM allows it, they are directly violating the text of the spell.



You could argue this, however it assumes that the portion of the creature to be duplicated is worthless. Which it might not entirely be. That's kinda like arguing you don't need a piece of a person to cast True Ressurrection to revive them. That means that the person is inherently worthless.

I see what you mean though, but at my table the Ice Assassin spell would probably just not "fire" without a given target. I can see why the spell description RAW can be confusing. It's a bit weird for me as I've always applied RAI for years before stumbling back on these forums.

Actually no. The ability to wish for literally any magic item you want is explicitly listed under the safe uses of wish. Nice try though.

[Afgncaap5]

How do you get that to fly at any table? A Wish spell cannot do this. If a DM allows it, they are directly violating the text of the spell.

The belief is, I think (and I may be mistaken here) that the cost of magical items being created with a Wish spell is not specified as it is for non-magical items. I would personally rule that the caveat that a Wish duplicating a spell with a material component that costs more than 10,000 gp applies (after all, what price can we put on the being of a creature?) but others point out that that's for duplicating spells not creating items and that the price of a creature, even a rare one, is probably lower than that usually (and I suppose that, the value of gold being a subjective thing, there is room for argument here.)

However, I also think that there's some rule for disallowing via RAI. The PH says something like "wishing for a staff of the magi might get you transported to the staff’s current angry owner or wishing to be immortal could get you imprisoned in an amber gem that magically enhances your life where you could live forever." I tend to think that a staff of the magi is both less potentially powerful and less potentially dangerous than a fully crafted scroll that's already used the material components of a given creature (hooray for subjectivity again!) so I'd just rule a player using such a wish as being given a scroll (that is, a rolled up piece of parchment) that has the drawing of an ice elemental sneaking up on the intended target with an assassin's dagger in its hand-shaped ice-club of a hand. Later when the player again asks more specifically for a scroll of the spell of ice assassin, the wish will offer up a scroll with an image depicting the first scroll, unfurled and again showing the same image, being perused by an annoyed looking character.

Well... okay, I wouldn't do that, that wastes a *lot* of player resources, and it's tantamount to banning the spell outright in the first place. Or at least I'd warn them of the possibility of the wish going wrong in that fashion.

-Edit: Swordsaged!

[John Longarrow]

You could argue this, however it assumes that the portion of the creature to be duplicated is worthless. Which it might not entirely be. That's kinda like arguing you don't need a piece of a person to cast True Ressurrection to revive them. That means that the person is inherently worthless.

Not the same thing. Saying "Your hair, once cut off of your head at the barber shop, is inherently worthless" is not the same as saying "You are inherently worthless".

Simply need something from the person, say clipped nails, a little hair, or even the scab cleaned off of their wound after sword practice. That is what people will try to say they don't need since they are pretty worthless.

Now if your willing to pay more than a gold piece for my cut hair there's a business proposition I'd like to make!

[Afgncaap5]

Now if your willing to pay more than a gold piece for my cut hair there's a business proposition I'd like to make!

I feel like this is the start to some sort of cautionary fairy tale.

[Mordaedil]

Actually no. The ability to wish for literally any magic item you want is explicitly listed under the safe uses of wish. Nice try though.
That is very against the "duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower" part of the spell.


Not the same thing. Saying "Your hair, once cut off of your head at the barber shop, is inherently worthless" is not the same as saying "You are inherently worthless".

Simply need something from the person, say clipped nails, a little hair, or even the scab cleaned off of their wound after sword practice. That is what people will try to say they don't need since they are pretty worthless.

Now if your willing to pay more than a gold piece for my cut hair there's a business proposition I'd like to make!

If you were a person of power or noteworthy influence, we'd have something to talk about for sure. You know how gaga teenage girls go over having memoribilia of their favorite famous person? That, but with the possibility of being able to magically take control of them is why a piece of someone could have value exceeding normal understanding.

A gold piece value isn't an inherent value, after all.

[icefractal]

It's not using the "Duplicate a spell" function of Wish, it's using this:
Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.Which does cost extra -
The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.So it isn't broken unless you're skipping the XP cost. If you are skipping the XP cost, Wish goes into NI territory anyway.

[John Longarrow]

If you were a person of power or noteworthy influence, we'd have something to talk about for sure. You know how gaga teenage girls go over having memoribilia of their favorite famous person? That, but with the possibility of being able to magically take control of them is why a piece of someone could have value exceeding normal understanding.

A gold piece value isn't an inherent value, after all.

Hmm... So potential effect = value? So guano (can be used for a 10d6 fire ball) or a wisp of smoke (for gaseous form) become far more valuable because they can be used in spells?

Economics doesn't really worth that way. What you normally get rid of is considered of little or no worth. So that scab the fighter washed off or the hair cut at the barber would not become "Valuable" because some people may find them of sentimental worth.

[Mordaedil]

It's not using the "Duplicate a spell" function of Wish, it's using this:Which does cost extra -So it isn't broken unless you're skipping the XP cost. If you are skipping the XP cost, Wish goes into NI territory anyway.
So technically, there is no limit to the Wish spell and you can just keep creating rings of wishes? Given you have the XP and GP to do so?


Hmm... So potential effect = value? So guano (can be used for a 10d6 fire ball) or a wisp of smoke (for gaseous form) become far more valuable because they can be used in spells?

Economics doesn't really worth that way. What you normally get rid of is considered of little or no worth. So that scab the fighter washed off or the hair cut at the barber would not become "Valuable" because some people may find them of sentimental worth.
If the guano was pooped by a giant HD20 bat, maybe or if the wisp of smoke was made from an elder air elemental, it'd be worth more than a singular GP, but the spell assumes mundane means in such a case.

In terms of "scraps" from a person, there is a precedent in other spells where they are considered more valuable based on the power of the person. Such as for a gem required for Trap the Soul spell. You could argue that it holds no value because it is indistinguishable from any other, but it actually is a matter that comes down to DM fiat. If the person you are targetting with the Ice Assassin is sufficiently non-interesting, I might allow Eschew to function at the table. Meanwhile if you plan to use it to assassinate someone vital to plot or another player, you bet I'm going to fiat and can the attempt without the correct ingredient.

After all, without a source, what is it copying? The thin air? Common sense is sort of void, I know, but I think it's still a vital part of the thinking process at the table.

Or rather, if you want to play a good wizard, prepare for situations where some of your solutions get shut down.

[ryu]

So technically, there is no limit to the Wish spell and you can just keep creating rings of wishes? Given you have the XP and GP to do so?


Indeed. If you're using any of a dozen ways to obviate those like SLA or Su status there's literally nothing that can't be accomplished by wish that can be accomplished by magic items. Considering the general utility of what people think of in magic items let alone the more complex uses like granting feats, changing race, or attaining immortality... It's basically the simplest path to power less than Pun-pun and pun-pun uses wishes to create itself usually.

[Mordaedil]

Sounds like I need to be more careful if I don't want to make my DM hate me now.

[kalos72]

Theoretically, I could find an ancient dwarven tomb of a long dead Delzoun king and IA's him?

Or Khelben Blackstaff if I could get hold of his hair or something? Imagine 100 Elminster's running around? That might get Mystra's attention! :)

[Raz Dazzle]

Ice Assassin specifically copies an existing creature, so you can't copy dead or hypothetical creatures.

[kalos72]

Good point, thats a subtle difference between this and Simulacrum I never noticed.

My group tends to use sims for information gathering / spying mostly and IA's for more important missions.

[Andezzar]

You could argue this, however it assumes that the portion of the creature to be duplicated is worthless. Which it might not entirely be. That's kinda like arguing you don't need a piece of a person to cast True Ressurrection to revive them. That means that the person is inherently worthless.The part of the person needn't be worthless, it just can't have a listed price. If that is the case, the material component is in your component pouch:
Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don’t bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch.
So you already have Demogorgon's hair.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hmm... So potential effect = value? So guano (can be used for a 10d6 fire ball) or a wisp of smoke (for gaseous form) become far more valuable because they can be used in spells?

Economics doesn't really worth that way. What you normally get rid of is considered of little or no worth. So that scab the fighter washed off or the hair cut at the barber would not become "Valuable" because some people may find them of sentimental worth.

Economics does work like that. If there is demand and there is supply, there's a price to be assigned. Bat guano, while its exact price isn't listed, is of some value precisely because there -is- a demand for it. Fireball is a common as dirt spell, in spite of its level, that calls for at least some intentional harvest and sales. You didn't think the 2gp for a spell component pouch was entirely on the material and craftsmanship, did you?

As to the random detritus of a person's body, there wouldn't be a sustainable market for that because of extremely low demand and virtually no demand. Only truly, massively legendary figures would have garnered enough fame for normal folk to be interested in that sort of thing, supply is absurdly limited, and those who can cast ice assassin or even just simulacrum are almost as rare as the afformentioned heroes. That's not to say you couldn't try to commission the acquisition of such, professional finders are a thing, but you'd be looking at pricing for the service rendered more than the inherent worth of the item itself.


Ice Assassin specifically copies an existing creature, so you can't copy dead or hypothetical creatures.

I'd argue that dead is still extant. Just somewhat disassembled, barring soul-destruction.

[SirNibbles]

IMHO the most expedient fix is to just ban Ice Assassin.

It's a bad spell, and it's not the only bad spell, so setting a precedent is useful here.

I agree. You could make a Wizard 5/Druid 1/Warblade 1/Fighter 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Arcane Hierophant 7 build that, at level 21, can create an Ice Assassin of itself and then exploit an infinite loop with Robilar's Gambit, Improved Combat Reflexes, Blood in the Water, Flame Blade, and Energy Immunity to gain +∞ to hit and +∞ to damage with a single standard action thanks to RAW. The +∞ to hit and damage go away if you don't crit for 1 minute but you can refresh them at any time by taking a single standard action as long as your Ice Assassin is near you.

Prismatic Great Wyrm (CR 66) vs Ice Assassin Exploiter (Level 21)

Ice Assassin Exploiter picks up a rock (improvised weapon, -4 atk roll, 1d2 damage) and throws it at the Wyrm, 50 feet away (-8 atk roll because of range penalty).

Atk Roll
1d20+15(BAB)+5(Dex)-12 (Penalties)+∞(Blood in the Water) = ∞
Dmg Roll
1d2+∞ = ∞

The Prismatic Great Wyrm is now dead.

[Afgncaap5]

My group tends to use sims for information gathering / spying mostly and IA's for more important missions.

Honestly, that's probably more along the lines of an intended use. It's still powerful if limited to those situations, but not game breaking. Sadly, it doesn't take too much poking around on the Internet (or even looking at the spell and putting one's thinking cap on for a minute or so) to come up with unintended uses outside of those.

So there's always the "DM Fiat" method of having cake and eating it too; figuring out why the spell won't always work when used for game breaking reasons can be tricky, though, and potentially not relied upon. (Though it's fun seeing player's scramble if their ice assassins start melting for unexpected reasons not covered in the spell description, like the bright lights of a stage or the proximity to a red dragon. By RAW those things have no effect, I think, but in a pinch it can work at the right kind of table. Just so long as it's foreshadowed by a wise and/or grizzled spellcaster/sage and used consistently.)

[kalos72]

Great post!

One question we always ran into by making sims for information is what to do with them after? We had thought about "awakening" them...but didnt know the process or if it could be done.

[John Longarrow]

Kelb_Panthera

You hit on why I'm saying the small amounts needed are not of economic worth. Bat guano is used in many things besides fireball and there is a market for it in quantity. The tiny amount required for fireball isn't of value by itself though. Proper analogy is dirt. You can't sell or trade a pocket full of it, but a truck load worth is of value.

For 'relics' there is a market. This is normally for the long dead or for a very limited pool of specific high profile individuals. They are separate from what most people would consider the required material component for an ice assassin though, and even then you could argue that the value of a tissue with the sweat of a famous olympian isn't worth one GP, hence would be covered by the feat.

For myself, at my table you really do need to get the right piece from the right person or the spell won't work. Spell also ends if the target is no longer living, a RIA measure to avoid a LOT of the problems otherwise inherent in the spell.

[Jack_Simth]

Great post!

One question we always ran into by making sims for information is what to do with them after? We had thought about "awakening" them...but didnt know the process or if it could be done.
A good-aligned concern, thinking of them as people first. In that vein....
Well, they can't really learn (level), and they can't heal naturally, but beyond that? They've got the full set of ability scores (probably - both spells are annoyingly vague), an alignment, and so forth - you can just say "Do as thou wilt" (or similar) and they're functionally free willed up until such time as you tell them "Obey me" (or similar). Technically, they're still stuck following orders, but for practical purposes they're free willed.

If you're neutral, you just set them on a task that can't really be completed (which may very well be "go hide") and forget about them.

If you're evil, you just kill them. Or maybe destroy them, if you're of the bent that they're not really alive in the first place.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Kelb_Panthera

You hit on why I'm saying the small amounts needed are not of economic worth. Bat guano is used in many things besides fireball and there is a market for it in quantity. The tiny amount required for fireball isn't of value by itself though. Proper analogy is dirt. You can't sell or trade a pocket full of it, but a truck load worth is of value.

IRL, that's true. IRL, however, there's no practical use for a tiny amount of bat guano and, so, no demand for it. There are more than enough 5th level wizards floating around in the various D&D worlds for there to be a sustainable market for such small dosages. It's just worth a copper or less in most places and, thus, not worth assigning a specific value in the text of the spell. It's covered in the cost of the spell component pouch along with a whole host of other negligably valued items. The only spells with the cost of their arcane component listed are those whose component is worth 1gp or more; the ones that don't get obviated by eschew materials and for whom the gp cost is intended (regardless of how successfully) as part of a balancing factor.


For 'relics' there is a market. This is normally for the long dead or for a very limited pool of specific high profile individuals. They are separate from what most people would consider the required material component for an ice assassin though, and even then you could argue that the value of a tissue with the sweat of a famous olympian isn't worth one GP, hence would be covered by the feat.

That's the valuless vs priceless argument (the RAW price of BoED relics not withstanding) and is a whole can of worms by itself.


For myself, at my table you really do need to get the right piece from the right person or the spell won't work. Spell also ends if the target is no longer living, a RIA measure to avoid a LOT of the problems otherwise inherent in the spell.

I'm with you for the first half and made a compromise for the latter. Dead targets cannot have been dead for any longer is outlined in the highest level ressurection spell available at the target's character level. That is; if a cleric of the same level could cast raise dead, an IA of that character can be made so long as he has not been dead for more than a day per character level; if a cleric of his level could cast ressurection, he gets a year per character level; and true res gets a decade per character level. Most anybody that's been dead for 200+ years is just not coming back no matter what you do and the same goes for anyone who died of old-age. Short of getting out into the planes, finding his soul, containing it, and bringing it back to the prime manually.

Of course, that's all the province of houserules so... *shrug*

[Echch]

I imagine this to be a sort of writing exercise. When a being exists only to kill a person, what happens once the person is dead? What sort of existential crisis do they have to go through?

Honestly, I think this is the best way to deal with it. It would be a pretty great roleplaying-opportunity.

[Mordaedil]

The part of the person needn't be worthless, it just can't have a listed price. If that is the case, the material component is in your component pouch:
So you already have Demogorgon's hair.

My DM told me to just go **** myself.

[Andezzar]

My DM told me to just go **** myself.Too bad. How does he handle rare but not costly material components? How does he handle Eschew Materials fo such components.