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SilverClawShift
2007-07-15, 08:44 PM
...or, Do any of you actually follow the spellbook rules in the PHB?

A spellbook has 100 pages.
A spell takes up 1 page per level.
It costs 100 gp per page.
It takes one full day for a single spell.

Copying a spell from a scroll or another spellbook also technically takes a full day to study and comprehend it, before you start writing it in your own spellbook.

Every level you gain, you get to write down 2 spells with no time cost, and no gold cost. They still take up space in your spellbook.

Copying spells from your OWN spellbook to another spellbook of yours takes half as much time and money, so that's good.

************************

Those are some very, very, very REAL limitations on a wizards realistic power level. Just to throw a little numerical perspective up there, cantrips take up 1 page each, along with first level spells, so if you want to have those written down, you're looking at a good chunk of a spellbook taken up. Let's ignore what you START with, assume you have an 'apprentice notebook' with just those spells.
Level 02: 2 pages (2, 1st level)
Level 03: 6 pages (2, 2nd level)
Level 04: 10 pages (2, 2nd level again)
Level 05: 16 pages (2, 3rd level, ect, ect)
Level 06: 22 pages
Level 07: 30 pages
Level 08: 38 pages
Level 09: 48 pages
Level 10: 58 pages
Level 11: 70 pages
Level 12: 82 pages
Level 13: 96 pages.

There's your limit. You can't copy any higher spell levels into your original spellbook starting at level 13, assuming you didn't learn spells from any outside sources. You have to buy another spellbook (15 gp, 3 lbs, not too bad).

But you'll fill this book up very fast, 14 pages at level 14, 30 pages at level 15, 46 pages, 64 pages, 82 pages, 100 pages at level 19, you need a new spellbook for your 20th level spells, again, with no outside spells learned from any sources.

Now please don't take me the wrong way. I'm not saying "Omg, the wizards suck" Wizards are still walking gods who will destroy you and everything in a 2 mile radius centered on you, and everyone of your bloodline for good measure.

I'm just saying that ignoring the very real weight (in terms of finances and time) of maintaining spellbooks is ignoring how much wizards need to pay attention to what they're doing to keep the magic flowing. You don't learn a new spell cause you walks by a scroll that was hanging in a dungeon, and I've never seen a party that will stop for two days and do nothing while you reasearch a spell.
Once you kill the enemy wizard and take their spellbook, you still have to go back to town, and take a few days of 'me time' to learn even a few new spells from it.

Now remember that your spellbook is a target, for theft, damage, or even attack (good way to cripple a wizard, snatch their spellbook). Sure, no DM will ever do it if no one gives them the idea, but if a DM wanted to, a wizard could have the hammer dropped on them and told "Start keeping track of your spellbook(s)."

******************************

I know this isn't news to some of you, but a lot of people probably never really thought about what paying for their spellbooks would be like for a wizard in terms of time and cold cash. You get your free spells, and really, that's enough to destroy everything you want to destroy. But any extra spells you decide you wanna know? You have to sit down somewhere quiet and pony up the dough. And deal with an ever expanding pile of 3 lb books.

And STR was your dump stat :smalltongue:

*******************************

Well, getting to my point, before I got sidetracked giving out numbers. My gaming group, like almost every gaming group in existance (I know SOME of you do), never kept track of that kind of stuff. The wizard learned new spells? They were non-chalantly written down on the character sheet as 'stuff I can do'.

A few weeks ago, our DM dropped the hammer on us. "It's time to start keeping track of your spellbooks". Omg noes. Well only for big campaigns. For little "Kill this stuff tonight" type campaigns, we ignore spellbooks and just start tearing crap apart like good little violence addicts.
But for major campaigns? We have to actually keep track of EVERYTHING a wizard does to keep their arsenal up to date. Every spell copied, every book in inventory, everything.

We balked a little at first, but we realized it makes the wizard a lot more engaging and... CONTROLLED. DM control isn't the same as raw mechanical control of course, but suddenly our little Time Stop tossing master of the universe had someone he needed to answer to.
And now we won't ever go back.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x284/SilverClawShift/spbook.png

There is what we've evolved into using. That's a 100 page spellbook for prepared casters. You learn a spell, you write it down on the right, you scribble in a square (or 2, or 4, or 9) to represent pages taken up by that spell. You want bigger (heavier, costlier) spellbooks (with DM approval) you can print it on both sides of a page and even start folding and stapling them together.
Wizards in our group tend to buy an extra-special 500 page spellbook that weighs 15 lbs as their 'main' spellbook, and then keep a few copies of spellbooks for different occasions. One member of our group practically JUGGLES a few books, keeping critical spells in a trapped, enchanted, incredibly protected book that he has strapped to him at all times, and copying other spells into his "Not afraid to lose" packages.

It really makes things more interesting, and it really makes the spellcaster dedicate some time to BEING a spellcaster, not just having spells. It also makes sorcerers a little more attractive in our game. No one can steal a spellbook that doesn't exist.

And YES, our wizards occasionally tattoo a spell our two onto them. Usually "Knock", "Darkvision", and "Invisibility". Just in case you wake up naked in a dark cell.

Not that that's happened to us or anything. *cough*

**************************************

Anyway, our DM has gone so far as to prep eney spellbooks for us to steal/loot so we actually have a physical (albeit one page) copy of what we can try to learn from it.

Thinking about that has made me wonder, who else actually follows the rules for spellbooks? Anyone?

To repeat, when we're doing quick runs or light games, we say 'forget it' and just start swinging fireballs. But anytime we have a dedicated 'I can do anything" wizard, we go with the rule-heavy version.

What about you?

MeklorIlavator
2007-07-15, 09:03 PM
Well, their is Bacob's Blessed Book, or Blessed Book inside the SRD. Or the Geometer(Com Arc). Both reduce the pages/gp cost of spells, and the Blessed book has 1000 pages. So its not as if there are no options for wizards.

Raltar
2007-07-15, 09:10 PM
Wait, you learn 2 new spells per level, so ignoring what you start with, you'll end up with 19 levels with 2 new spells each level, each spell taking up 1 page= 38 pages...assuming you don't learn any spells from outside sources. Or am I getting something wrong?

EDIT:
Nevermind, it's 1 page per level of the spell, as you stated that I missed.

SilverClawShift
2007-07-15, 09:12 PM
A spell takes up 1 page per level.

Fireball takes up 3 pages. Time Stop takes up 9. Ect. :smalltongue:

Arbitrarity
2007-07-15, 09:30 PM
Literally, by the time that's a problem, I say "I have tons of spellbooks in my Portable Hole/Handy Haversack/Bag of Holding, and also I generally have a BBB.

CockroachTeaParty
2007-07-15, 09:36 PM
I utilize the spellbook rules. Often times in between adventures a wizard will have to spend several days writing down new spells. During this downtime I encourage other characters to use Craft skills, item creation feats, Profession skills, Perform checks, and other things. This allows the other characters to get a little extra cash, or create a tanglefoot bag, etc.

Also, during these periods of downtime, I calculate how much money the characters spend on food and lodging, and subtract that from their total wealth at the end of the period. Gather Information checks, training, making useful contacts... downtime can become an important, nay, vital time for a serious adventuring party. That's why it's nice to invest in a stronghold of some sort at mid to high levels, for added security. Usually, if I'm the DM, I let downtime transpire with little RP or excruciating description. But every once in a while, an event will unfold during the downtime that requires the PCs immediate attention, so sometimes activities like writing down new spells can be interrupted.

Your right that for quick hack'n slash games, such book keeping is not needed, but for longer campaigns I think it adds flavor, and helps players become more invested in their characters.

Ramza00
2007-07-15, 09:42 PM
Now remember that your spellbook is a target, for theft, damage, or even attack (good way to cripple a wizard, snatch their spellbook). Sure, no DM will ever do it if no one gives them the idea, but if a DM wanted to, a wizard could have the hammer dropped on them and told "Start keeping track of your spellbook(s)."

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/instantSummons.htm

Not going to happen as soon as a wizard can cast 7th lvl spells. Well it might happen but it is going to suck real hard for the thief. There are some spells before hand in non core but in spell compendium and other sources that transform, animate, and shrink your spellbooks.

Ramza00
2007-07-15, 09:43 PM
Also the quill in complete mage that is extremely cheap makes crafting multiple spellbooks a lot easier. Two blessed books and some small other spellbooks and suddenly spells are a lot less of a problem.

horseboy
2007-07-15, 09:46 PM
This one time, I was really bored, so I actually wrote out my nethermancer's grimoire. I set the word file to I think wingdings 3 and just typed out the descriptions of the spell straight out of the book. The GM saw it and I got some mad roleplay XP.
He had a "main" copy of all his spells he kept at home. Of course, his family was 400 or so lizards that didn't like trespassers. Then he kept "travel" versions of his grimoires with him, one of which was his sword.

SilverClawShift
2007-07-15, 09:51 PM
Not going to happen as soon as a wizard can cast 7th lvl spells.

Which is level 13, there's plenty of levels before that.

But you've kinda hit on my point exactly. There's plenty a wizard can do to keep their spells safe and make their archiving easier. Magical traps, multiple copies, enchanted books, enchanted writing implements, extra-planar holding spaces, good hiding spots (easier if you shrink it).

Making a player actually pay attention to those things makes them get inside their character, and actually be concerned with keeping the most valuable stuff they own safe :smallbiggrin:

It's not that it's difficult, I wasn't bringing this up saying "This is a big problem" (and said so a few times). It's just a matter of actually DOING it and bringing something worthwhile to your game.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-07-15, 09:53 PM
I usually make wizards of 11th level or higher (for fun) and I always equip them with at least one of Boccob's Blessed Books. I have an epic wizard (more of a gish, really) that has 3 of them. So far with all the spells he's learned and bought, he's only just now hit book 2.

Edit: Wait, no he hasn't, not yet.

Ramza00
2007-07-15, 09:58 PM
Which is level 13, there's plenty of levels before that.

But you've kinda hit on my point exactly. There's plenty a wizard can do to keep their spells safe and make their archiving easier. Magical traps, multiple copies, enchanted books, enchanted writing implements, extra-planar holding spaces, good hiding spots (easier if you shrink it).

Making a player actually pay attention to those things makes them get inside their character, and actually be concerned with keeping the most valuable stuff they own safe :smallbiggrin:

It's not that it's difficult, I wasn't bringing this up saying "This is a big problem" (and said so a few times). It's just a matter of actually DOING it and bringing something worthwhile to your game.
Oh I completely understand and agree. It is stuff like this that normally has me throw in some levels of geometer even if there are better options power wise. Book-keeping wise it is just more fun by removing most of this stuff.

Gavin Sage
2007-07-15, 10:00 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/instantSummons.htm

Not going to happen as soon as a wizard can cast 7th lvl spells. Well it might happen but it is going to suck real hard for the thief. There are some spells before hand in non core but in spell compendium and other sources that transform, animate, and shrink your spellbooks.

When you first hit your 7th spell level you are going to spend one of the two spell you learn for that level on Instant Summons or go to all the trouble of learning tracking it down, then spend one of your precious slots a day on a spell that you will rarely use in all likelihood. Just because there is a counter doesn't make it an full one. And hey thats one less Finger of Death or whatever a mage has to throw at you.

Ramza00
2007-07-15, 10:16 PM
When you first hit your 7th spell level you are going to spend one of the two spell you learn for that level on Instant Summons or go to all the trouble of learning tracking it down, then spend one of your precious slots a day on a spell that you will rarely use in all likelihood. Just because there is a counter doesn't make it an full one. And hey thats one less Finger of Death or whatever a mage has to throw at you.

The duration is permanent till discharge. Thus you cast the spell store it on a gem and then crush the gem when ready to go after the person who stole your spellbook.

Furthermore lets say you didn't have the spell on your spellbook. Let say your spellbook was stolen at 12th lvl before you have 7th lvl spells, you just turn lvl 13 and want to pay the thief back with fire and brimstone. You don't need the book on you to cast the spell. Just your arcane mark (a catnip) to be already on your book, something a lvl 1 wizard can do without any resource expenditure. Once the arcane mark is on the book you can spend the 1000 gp for the gem and the 7th lvl slot to retrieve the spellbook you just inscribe the name of the item you are retrieving (spellbook number X) on the gem, crush it and either retrieve the book instantly or have enough info to teleport on the thief's ass when he least expects it.

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-07-15, 10:21 PM
just put on a ring of storing, and then, i dont know make it an earing, or part of a really fancy hat.

but personal favorite is shrink it and put it in your crouch, then both you and the thief will have a good time. *wink*

Gavin Sage
2007-07-15, 10:28 PM
Actually its not nearly so useful as even I though. I really must read spell descriptions fully and repeatedly:


If the item is in the possession of another creature, the spell does not work, but you know who the possessor is and roughly where that creature is located when the summons occurs.

Emphasis mine. Meaning that you have to wait until the thief has escaped and gone and sat your spell book on a shelf somewhere to use the spell. Also as the spell has the Target quality you must be able to see it so you can't simply cast your mark once then prepare the spell if you ever loose the book.

Ramza00
2007-07-15, 11:40 PM
It is Range: See text

and in the text it has nothing about placing a spell on the item but instead affecting the gem.


but you know who the possessor is and roughly where that creature is located when the summons occurs.
Which is enough information for you to teleport to the item immediately. Or it is enough information for this spell if you want to plan an ambush.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scrying.htm

Also if your party's cleric friend is willing to part with 100xp commune will be a great spell, asking 13 yes/no questions about a specific individual and a location will give you a good amount of information to plan an ambush/prevent a trap.

And at the very least the 2nd lvl Locate Object will be able to point you to the general direction of your spellbook's theif for lower level parties.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/locateObject.htm

Elana
2007-07-16, 02:35 AM
The spellbook rules are one of the attempts to balance the wizard.

But as most people tend to forget about the book the wizard tends to get that uber powerful.

(Funny thing is when you calculate encumbrance correctly, you often find characters having backpacks they can't even lift of the ground :) )

Renx
2007-07-16, 02:45 AM
The spellbook rules are petty, but in the end they're pretty fair. I mean, if you run out of pages, just get another one. Have some 'backup' books you can fall back on if your spellbook gets burned/stolen (because yes, that can happen).

Copying a spell to your spellbook takes a day if you're learning it. If you enforce spellbook rules, IMO you should allow for relatively quick copying (will cost some, though), or risk the wrath of your players when you burn their spellbook.

Callix
2007-07-16, 02:47 AM
Spellbooks are to wizards what gods are to clerics: the fonts of power that optimisers ignore at their peril. By ignoring the restrictive downsides of these classes in the name of player control or less bookkeeping, they become brutally overpowered. The wizard is still strong, but remember all those who put their spellbooks somewhere no-one could ever get it: can you? There's enough different tricks that a wizard can have a very good time planning out their defences, and it makes sense for the guy whose years of devoted study have granted the power to reshape the universe takes a few days' sabbatical every now and then.

Swooper
2007-07-16, 05:18 AM
I remember keeping track of my spellbook with my first AD&D character, but since then we've pretty much ignored it, and the only downside to using spellbooks has been that you have one less line in you inventory. Shame, really.

The Prince of Cats
2007-07-16, 05:53 AM
By the time you hit 13, you will probably have picked up at least a portable hole or a bag of holding or a (Heward's) Handy Haversack. Even if you don't have Boccob's Blessed Book, there is nothing wrong with having a collection of spell-books. I mean, the classical image of a wizard's tower is of whole walls covered in bookcases, each filled with arcane writings.

Of course, if your party is anything like mine, the wizard has a very small group of spells they like to use and they vary their load-out very little. Wizards (or their players in my group) tend toward slightly predictable behaviour. They would probably have a book of their 'usual' spells and then check the larger book-collection if they need one of their less-common spells.

mostlyharmful
2007-07-16, 06:10 AM
remember that spellbooks can actually be a source of wealth as well as a hastle, once you've got a couple levels then you have a salable resource in your recorded spells. want a new shiney hat, just sell the oppertunity to copy one of your snazzier spells to any other Wizard NPC and make a mint, if you have to do it sthen so do they.

Swooper
2007-07-16, 06:37 AM
remember that spellbooks can actually be a source of wealth as well as a hastle, once you've got a couple levels then you have a salable resource in your recorded spells. want a new shiney hat, just sell the oppertunity to copy one of your snazzier spells to any other Wizard NPC and make a mint, if you have to do it sthen so do they.
Then, the wizard whom you sold the spell to uses said spell to twart you later :smallamused:

Really, sensible wizards DON'T sell other wizards their spells. Unless those other wizards are definitely friendly. And even then, they're wary.

Attilargh
2007-07-16, 07:00 AM
Really, sensible wizards DON'T sell other wizards their spells.
Dude, wizards walk around in dresses with their pockets full of bat excrement, live spiders and whatnot. What part of this sounds sensible?

mostlyharmful
2007-07-16, 07:16 AM
the part where you dance around and rewrite reality with your godlike power, derived from said pipistrail guano. FLAMEY-DEATH-BOOGEY!!!!!:smallbiggrin:

Saph
2007-07-16, 08:28 AM
Which is level 13, there's plenty of levels before that.

But you've kinda hit on my point exactly. There's plenty a wizard can do to keep their spells safe and make their archiving easier. Magical traps, multiple copies, enchanted books, enchanted writing implements, extra-planar holding spaces, good hiding spots (easier if you shrink it).

Making a player actually pay attention to those things makes them get inside their character, and actually be concerned with keeping the most valuable stuff they own safe :smallbiggrin:

It's not that it's difficult, I wasn't bringing this up saying "This is a big problem" (and said so a few times). It's just a matter of actually DOING it and bringing something worthwhile to your game.

Yup, definitely. My loremaster just hit 9th level at about the same time the party finished their main quest and headed back to Silverymoon. I'd been away from cities for a while, so I had a whole list of spells to scribe and items to craft.

It took a total of 112 days. And that's in game. I haven't even tried counting the number of hours I spent doing the maths and working everything out out of game. ;)

This is the real weakness of wizards, and at higher levels it's a big one, even if it's their only one: playing a wizard takes work. To be really effective, a wizard needs a huge amount of preparation and thinking-out time before playing. You have to know what all your spells do, when they will and won't work, and you need to have a dozen or so utility items and contingency plans for when things go wrong. Otherwise, sooner or later you'll get wrong-footed.

That said, if you're the kind of person who likes doing this sort of stuff, it can be a lot of fun, and as Silver says, it really does help you get into character. I've found that working out this sort of thing makes me understand my character much better, and it means I always have something to do when the main adventure's on hold.

Oh, and on encumbrance - yeah, it's a BIG problem. My loremaster has a strength of 8, and at lower levels I was really struggling not to break my 26-pound carrying limit. If you actually go through your equipment list and tally up all the items, it's amazing how fast it mounts up. You can do it, but you have to accept that you're going to be carrying your spellbook, your clothes, a little camping gear, and pretty much nothing else. Forget about coins. Now that I have a Handy Haversack it takes care of the weight issue, but it's a big problem at low levels.

As for spellbook space, a Blessed Book is the way to go. However, you have to accept that in the short term, it'll actually lose you money - if you only want a few spells, you're much better off scribing them normally than paying the 12,500 cost. The Blessed Book's a long-term investment, which makes it more of a mixed bag if you actually play through those levels rather than just starting at level 10 with a hundred and twenty-five spells scribed in your spellbook already.

- Saph

Gavin Sage
2007-07-16, 09:09 AM
It is Range: See text

and in the text it has nothing about placing a spell on the item but instead affecting the gem.

Its a function of any spell that has "Target" not the spell itself:


Target or Targets

Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#targetorTargets

So you could still do some weird things like target through a telescope, but not simply cast blindly. I imagine the intention was it be an object you were holding, but that has nothing to support it.



Which is enough information for you to teleport to the item immediately. Or it is enough information for this spell if you want to plan an ambush.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scrying.htm

Also if your party's cleric friend is willing to part with 100xp commune will be a great spell, asking 13 yes/no questions about a specific individual and a location will give you a good amount of information to plan an ambush/prevent a trap.

And at the very least the 2nd lvl Locate Object will be able to point you to the general direction of your spellbook's theif for lower level parties.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/locateObject.htm

And if said thief stole the book in the night before said wizard had any of their spells prepared for the day? After a hard day of adventuring no mage is in good shape for a fight without renewing their spell.

However this is getting away from the basic problem once you add a cleric. We've entered an escalating cycle of counters once we add in other party members. Since there is no reason a high-level thief could not have resources of their own, like say a permanent Nondetection item or a hideout you can't teleport into. Magic has counter for everything in theory, but then magic can counter magic too.

Instant Summons is not totally useless in recovering a lost spell book, but it is not a matter of snapping your fingers as first portrayed. It requires foresight to even have the spell, then of course preparing it, then having all the further measures you would need if the thief is simply carrying the book. All of which does not make it such a simple easy complete counter every mage will have it in place. Thus stealing spellbooks is still a good way to cause a mage all kinds of problems. Not an insumountable challenge, but a good way to take casters down a notch.

mostlyharmful
2007-07-16, 09:17 AM
the epic book has elminsters pipe as a retrievable object based on the summons spell but not needing any material component. Use the same system on all your spell books along with some kind of return mechanizem (dismisal/teleportobject/teleport circle/????) and have an entire library at your beck and call any where any when, and completely secutre in your tower otherwise.

Fixer
2007-07-17, 04:31 PM
I was reviewing my conjurer and realized that he has a lot of very expensive non-magical gear.

His spell-staves are worth 900gp each (9 spell levels x 100gp / level) due to what is written upon them.
His spellbook is worth 8900gp (89 spell levels x 100gp / level). When it is full it will be nearly as expensive as a fresh Blessed Book.

Now, thankfully he didn't have to pay for the spells in his spellbook. But the cost of adding new spells from another source makes having a large library of spells quite expensive.


How many DMs actually enforce the 100gp/page cost of copying spells from another spellbook? (And I mean without the Holy Grail of Wizards a.k.a. Blessed Book)

tahu88810
2007-07-17, 04:32 PM
I enforce it,
it seems to balance the wizzys with the fighters :smallcool:

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-17, 04:35 PM
I do.
Wizards hardly need another boon.

If you gave it for free wizards would become almost as powerful as Ninjas and Monks. :smallamused:

Saph
2007-07-17, 04:37 PM
How many DMs actually enforce the 100gp/page cost of copying spells from another spellbook? (And I mean without the Holy Grail of Wizards a.k.a. Blessed Book)

Every DM that I know does. Why wouldn't they? Wizards are supposed to pay for scribing spells - that's the price they pay for their versatility. You also have to pay money to get the spell in the first place, even if you do have a Blessed Book.

Besides, needing money for spells is a prime adventure hook, and there's never any good reason to pass up one of those. Gives a simple and effective reason for your scholarly wizard to be tromping around in dungeons.

- Saph

PlatinumJester
2007-07-17, 04:39 PM
If a DM enforced neither material components or scribing costs then a wizard could easily just take a Vow of Poverty and get +8 to intelligence as well as a bunch of other stuff.

horseboy
2007-07-17, 04:39 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html

Sometimes it just doesn't make sense.

Person_Man
2007-07-17, 04:43 PM
I enforce it. If the cost of a spellbook bothers you, be a Sorcerer.

Though when it comes to material components, I have a custom magic item spell pouch that allows them to place gp into it and draw out spell components of the appropriate cost. This makes bookkeeping much easier, while maintaining game balance.

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-17, 05:00 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html

Sometimes it just doesn't make sense.

I rule that the Power Words are so powerful that you can't write them in your spellbook directly, lest they burn fist-sized holes in it. You have to couch them in several pages of arcane framework. The same goes for preparing them each day; if you just try to memorize the Word, you will be stunned/asleep/dead until you forget it.

EDIT: If you managed to hold the Power Word (Kill) in your mind without dying, you would probably become a god of death or something.

Amiria
2007-07-17, 05:15 PM
My RL group largely ignores it and we are ok with it. Well ok, we also don't play batman battle control wizards but rather blasty wizards. Fireballs are fun.


http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j179/Kotzgeist/amiriasmiley.gif Fireball !!! http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j179/Kotzgeist/amiriasmiley.gif

Morty
2007-07-17, 05:21 PM
Of course it should be inforced. Other classes need to pay for their armor, weapon, ammunition and so on. Wizards doesn't. So they've got to have something to pay for. Even if it doesn't make much sense fluff-wise.
Also, I'm not going to use Blessed Book even if we get to the level when we can afford it.

PaladinBoy
2007-07-17, 06:11 PM
We enforce it. Of course, our wizards usually buy the blessed book, which does allow the wizard scribing spells into it to ignore normal costs for doing so.

Emperor Tippy
2007-07-17, 06:28 PM
It's enforced in all my games but Blessed Book's are generally purchased as soon as possible. And once you have one you can scribe ever spell in existence and never pay for it again (secret page to cram more spells in the same space).

CASTLEMIKE
2007-07-17, 06:33 PM
Most games enforce it. A good way around it is to have a lesser prorated Boccob's Blessed Spell Book crafted for you with 100 pages at 10% of the normal market cost for 1,250 GP market price.

There is always the 30% reduced crafting discount by having it made to only work for you.

SilverClawShift
2007-07-17, 06:42 PM
I actually just made a thread about this a while ago.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50838

I was under the immpression that most groups ignore it to start, and wind up doing it later, but that might just be a notion that's stuck in my head because my group did it that way.

Keeping track of it really makes playing a wizard a lot more engrossing, in my opinion.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-17, 07:13 PM
I enforce that, with ofc, the listed exception (spells at level-up).

Of course, an elven generalist wizard with a fiendish familiar and Collegiate wizard gets 7 spells known each level up :smalleek: , but still.

Somehow, the first post reminded me of the optimized low level wizard (of doom), who sold his spellbook, and bought a bunch of magebreed war dogs.

Dausuul
2007-07-17, 07:41 PM
I don't enforce it... but that's because I just don't allow wizards to begin with. Or any prepared caster, for that matter. Clerics and druids in my games use the spontaneous casting rules.

Roland St. Jude
2007-07-17, 07:45 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Two threads about the exact same thing have been merged into one even better thread! Feel the excitement!

Jack_Simth
2007-07-17, 08:07 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html

Sometimes it just doesn't make sense.

You make it make sense with fluff. The catch, of course, being that it commits you to a particular fluff - here's one I concocted a while back:



Wizard's can't touch magic directly. Sure, they can do a few things every here and there, and they can apply mystic energy.... but mostly, they're stuck powering the awkward "magical circutry" which is their spellbook. Apply energy here, here, and here for fifteen minutes, putting a variance in the energy then to control certain options, and the painted "circuts" manipulate the energies into an energy packet which can then be picked up and maintained with almost no effort. In a scroll, the energy packet is tied to the parchment; the spellcraft roll to copy represents figuring out how that particular packet of energy was shaped; the spellcraft roll to familiarize yourself with it for later casting represents tracking down which tabs for triggering are appropriet; the caster level check for activating a scroll with a caster level higher than yours represents seeing if you can manage the force needed to activate the stored spell. When using a borrowed spellbook, the Spellcraft check represents tracking down where to apply energy properly (they don't come with instructions) and how to pick up the resultant packet. The Wizard doesn't so much cast a spell as build and invoke one. It's something he picks up and uses, not something that's a part of him. This explaination also covers why it takes a 20th level specialist Wizard with in excess of fifty spell slots and 227.5 spell levels (counting 0th level spells as half a level) a full fifteen minutes to prepare a cantrip in an empty slot; fifteen minutes is the minimum needed to run and retreive a "spell program"; it's just that the Wizard is capable of running more than one such at a time, so he can run (prepare) his fifty spells in an hour. As a bonus, this explains why scribing a spell into a spellbook is expensive - the wizard is painting magical circutry onto the pages... possibly using things like gold and platinum directly.

A Sorcerer's magic is virtually a part of him. He touches it directly and shapes it through raw mystic force. Like most cases of the biological vs. the mechanical, it's a lot more effecient; the spell a Wizard takes fifteen minutes to put together via his spellbook, a Sorcerer sets up in one standard action. The downside, though, is that it's a lot less flexible. He can only put his impromptu packets together in so many ways, as he has to remember them all personally (they are partially instinctive, but do require practice and expirimentation). He can do it more often, though, as he only has to gather a pool of energy, there's less maintenence involved in holding an energy pool together than there is in trickle-charging a bunch of spell packets.

The bard constructs his spells on the fly, similar to how a Sorcerer does. But in the Bard's case, he's using verbal memory tricks to remind himself of exactly how the spell goes, in a musically "learned" fasion, rather than drawing on instinct. He's got a lot of other things to focus on, though, and doesn't have quite the energy to apply to packet-making as the Wizard or Sorcerer.

A Divine spellcaster gets these packets handed down pre-made; the Cleric need only invoke them (Causes, if permitted, are [quasi-]dieties under this Theory of Magic; perhaps Causes are what the dieties were originally born of, or there's an awful lot of dieties out there and you don't actually need a diety's name to pray to one [and thus a Cause cleric is actually getting spells granted by a diety who's name he doesn't know] - it is techncially possible for a Cleric to have no ranks in Knoweledge(Religion), after all - or whatever).

The verbal and somatic components of spells are not all the same - that's why you need a Spellcraft check to identify a spell as it's being cast. Each Wizard sets up a slightly different trigger mechanism - and, indeed, sets up slightly different trigger mechanisims even for copies of the same spell, so he doesn't fumble two spells trying to supply the right bit of extra push to the same triggers and coming up short (the Quicken Spell metamagic feat partially revolves around aranging for less "push" and redundant triggers). Much of the Spellcraft check to identify a spell on the fly is involved in tracking the energies as they come into play in order to predict the final result; the energy packet has something of an effect on the outside world while it's still being given that final push.

Spellcasters need the material and focus components because some energy packets require a pattern to draw off of; there's a little more information needed to finish the effect than can be easily contained in the energy packet (in the case of "complex" material or focus components, such as a live spider or a cocoon; Eschew Materials aleviates the need for some of it by putting a bit more info into the spell); others require something physical for a slight boost in energy or focus (for "simple" components like the copper coin for Detect Thoughts or the copper wire for Sending; Eschew Materials aleviates the need for some of it by putting a bit more force or focus into the spell). Sorcerers still need them because sometimes, there's just too much to remember, or some of it really does need to be channeled outside the body, for whatever reason. Other components are either a source of energy to power certain portions of the spell that are only quasi-magical in and of themselves, a bribe of sorts to certain forces,
or even a form of insulation against backlash. A divine caster avoids the need for most such trappings with help from above... but there are limits to what they can be bothered to do for their followers.

With the above Theory of Magic, a Power Word spell is a packet just like the rest of them; energy goes in, effect comes out (consider, for a moment, that nothing in the Power Word line prevents them from being Silenced). At which point, the semi-arbitrary amount of materials, time, and space required for a spell starts to make a degree of sense.

Kyeudo
2007-07-17, 08:42 PM
I've always taken the power word spells to be extremely long and complex words that take exacting pronunciation and a lot of personal power to manifest, which is why it takes so many pages to scribe it down. You're writing out all the pronunciation and focus aids, as well as all the proper inflections needed to use it on the right target, so that when you cast the spell the universe recognizes that word and doesn't fry your friend instead of the vampire.

SolkaTruesilver
2007-07-18, 08:07 AM
I prefer another interpretation.

when wizards "prepare" spells, they don't simply memorize them. They pre-cast them. Every spell is designed so that you need to actually prepare the casting of the spell, and use mental/verbal component to prepare the spell you are about to cast.

The effective "casting" is simply the final key to execute the magical power. So, "Power Word : Blind" (or any other), is a spell that takes a LOT of time to "cast", but the final key is 1-word long.

When you make someone "forget" a memorized spell, you simply wipe away all the pre-casting he executed on that spell. That is why wizards with memorized spells radiate some magical aura, it's because they have "spells in suspension"

Kurald Galain
2007-07-18, 08:41 AM
I prefer another interpretation.

Good flavor on that. Amber DRP uses the same system for "hanging" spells, effectively completing 99% in advance so that the final 1% is easy.

Tyger
2007-07-18, 08:44 AM
I prefer another interpretation.

when wizards "prepare" spells, they don't simply memorize them. They pre-cast them. Every spell is designed so that you need to actually prepare the casting of the spell, and use mental/verbal component to prepare the spell you are about to cast.

The effective "casting" is simply the final key to execute the magical power. So, "Power Word : Blind" (or any other), is a spell that takes a LOT of time to "cast", but the final key is 1-word long.

When you make someone "forget" a memorized spell, you simply wipe away all the pre-casting he executed on that spell. That is why wizards with memorized spells radiate some magical aura, it's because they have "spells in suspension"

I really like this interpretation. Its how I have always sort of envisioned the matter, and it helps me get past the basic suspension that the Vancian system requires. This just sums it up more succinctly then I have prior. Nice.

Morty
2007-07-18, 09:12 AM
I prefer another interpretation.

when wizards "prepare" spells, they don't simply memorize them. They pre-cast them. Every spell is designed so that you need to actually prepare the casting of the spell, and use mental/verbal component to prepare the spell you are about to cast.

The effective "casting" is simply the final key to execute the magical power. So, "Power Word : Blind" (or any other), is a spell that takes a LOT of time to "cast", but the final key is 1-word long.

When you make someone "forget" a memorized spell, you simply wipe away all the pre-casting he executed on that spell. That is why wizards with memorized spells radiate some magical aura, it's because they have "spells in suspension"

Nice interpretation, I'm actually using the same one. It describes spell preparation quite logically. I could swear the definition of preparing in Magic Overview section of SRD implied that, but I can't find that fragment right now.

lukelightning
2007-07-18, 09:14 AM
If I were DMing I'd houserule that the spellbook is entirely "virtual." It's not an actual book, its just a list of spells that a wizard can prepare. The wizard would have a book of research, notes, observations of magic, etc. that he or she maintains, but that is just fluff.

Matthew
2007-07-18, 06:13 PM
I prefer another interpretation.

when wizards "prepare" spells, they don't simply memorize them. They pre-cast them. Every spell is designed so that you need to actually prepare the casting of the spell, and use mental/verbal component to prepare the spell you are about to cast.

The effective "casting" is simply the final key to execute the magical power. So, "Power Word : Blind" (or any other), is a spell that takes a LOT of time to "cast", but the final key is 1-word long.

When you make someone "forget" a memorized spell, you simply wipe away all the pre-casting he executed on that spell. That is why wizards with memorized spells radiate some magical aura, it's because they have "spells in suspension"

Yeah, this is the interpretation I have been going along with. It made even more sense when Preparing Spells in Second Edition, as they required 10 Minutes per Spell Level.

Jack_Simth
2007-07-18, 06:37 PM
I prefer another interpretation.

when wizards "prepare" spells, they don't simply memorize them. They pre-cast them. Every spell is designed so that you need to actually prepare the casting of the spell, and use mental/verbal component to prepare the spell you are about to cast.

The effective "casting" is simply the final key to execute the magical power. So, "Power Word : Blind" (or any other), is a spell that takes a LOT of time to "cast", but the final key is 1-word long.

When you make someone "forget" a memorized spell, you simply wipe away all the pre-casting he executed on that spell. That is why wizards with memorized spells radiate some magical aura, it's because they have "spells in suspension"
That's actually Core, for Wizards - 3.5 PHB, page 178 "The act of preparing a spell is actually the first step in casting it. A spell is designed in such a way that it has an interruption point near its end. This allows a wizard to cast most of the spell ahead of time and finish when it's needed, even if she is under considerable pressure." (stupid typos mine)

If you take that too literally, though, Wizards never provoke attacks of opportunity in combat - you only provoke an AoO when you start casting a spell (which the wizard did hours ago in a safe environment).

But that cannot cover why when a Sorcerer casts a Power Word spell, he can't just keep casting it again and again and again and again... it is "just a word" (of power) after all. Spell Packets does - and doesn't contradict the core casting mechanics significantly.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-18, 06:42 PM
Sorcerors "cast" differently than wizards. They unconsciously "prepare" spells, in fact, all of them that they know, as many times as they can (cough), but only can channel enough energy to cast the number of spells they have.