Final Fantasy XV

[Anteros]

So is anyone else playing the newest Final Fantasy installment? I'm only about 5 hours in so far, but the game is pretty great. Combat feels fantastic, and the story has promise. The visuals are great too.

[Seerow]

So is anyone else playing the newest Final Fantasy installment? I'm only about 5 hours in so far, but the game is pretty great. Combat feels fantastic, and the story has promise. The visuals are great too.

My brother and I bought into the hype train and went 50/50 on the collectors edition box. So far my impressions are very positive. I like the open world questing aspect of the game, and the characters are fairly entertaining. For my playthrough I'm still too early to have a real opinion on the story, but I'm having fun with the time I've spent with the game so far. I'll likely digest the game a few hours a week over the next few months and finish it way behind.

[Fri]

I most likely would never have chance to play it but I have friends who play and the response so far is quite positive /except/ about the plot. Basically it feels like an FF game, great chars, great setting, great gameplay (everyone was so amused by how fun the whole road trip gameplay is, with driving, camping, cooking, selfies etc) but the plot is pretty weak. A friend of mine said that the original plot idea that nomura wrote back then was better but the new writer/director changed at least an important part of it and the change made the whole main plot weaker. Something about the mcs love interest, originally she's his rival/frenemy/starcrossed lover

[Drasius]

Finally bought one of the "next gen" (though nowadays they're just current gen) consoles since there's finally a non PC game that I really want to play. Currently installing patches for said console and will then spend the next day or 2 loading the 60gig day 1 patch and will hopefully get to play sunday. Looking forward to this.

[Anteros]

I most likely would never have chance to play it but I have friends who play and the response so far is quite positive /except/ about the plot. Basically it feels like an FF game, great chars, great setting, great gameplay (everyone was so amused by how fun the whole road trip gameplay is, with driving, camping, cooking, selfies etc) but the plot is pretty weak. A friend of mine said that the original plot idea that nomura wrote back then was better but the new writer/director changed at least an important part of it and the change made the whole main plot weaker. Something about the mcs love interest, originally she's his rival/frenemy/starcrossed lover

I'll admit that the plot was pretty boring for the first chapter or so. "Hey, let's go on a road trip" isn't exactly an epic Final Fantasy story. It picked up considerably once I hit chapter three though. Maybe it slows back down again at some point, but right now I'm really enjoying it.

I'm also playing with a friend, so we're only able to play when we're both free. As you can imagine that's not very often. We're only about 5-7 or so hours in despite owning the game since release, and I sadly don't expect to be able to play again for at least a week.

[Comet]

Straight up one of my favourite Final Fantasies. Loved the world design, I don't think I've seen this kind of hybrid of interesting real-world natural analogues in a video game. Cleigne was definitely my favourite region, deep ravines and dry hedges and ashlands, just utterly unique.

The story, once it got going, was pretty much pitch-perfect, too. Final Fantasies don't often have brilliant endings, but this one just nailed it fantastically. Showing us these characters slowly through incidental interactions mixed in with gamepaly paid off big time. By the time these big, melodramatic set pieces towards the end were happening I was fully invested. The very final shot was borderline perfection.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I guess I'll be the conscientious dissident, then, because I was not really all that happy with the game OR the ending.

Fair enough, though, I'm an 'old school' Final Fantasy fan. Didn't like 7 or 8, 10 was meh, and everything after that was straight up garbage. The only game worth buying since the franchise switched from Nintendo to Sony, in my opinion, was 9. When they changed directors, they went in a direction I didn't much care for.

So, please take this with a grain of salt, and the grumpy mutterings of a fan of the classics.

First off, it didn't really feel like a Final Fantasy game. I mean, you'd expect... oh, I dunno... maybe some fantasy in a game with that title. The ultra-realistic playable characters made me feel like I was playing some version of GTA. There were NO non-human playable characters, or remotely non-human (okay, technically except *spoilers* but that's pretty much irrelevant and tacked onto the end for no apparent reason). The only creatures that could be called 'fantasy' were there exclusively to be slaughtered in droves (except the chocobos which were your convenient off-road vehicle).

The car. OMFG don't get me started on the car. 'We were too lazy to make overworld music, because we apparently suck, so here's remixes of the decent music you grew up with'. We're supposedly playing a fantasy game, but we spend a good chunk of our time in a CAR? Just... no.

Hell, for that matter, cell phones. I kept expecting someone to pull a product placement blatant plug or see a billboard for Sony as you cruised down the road in your 'totally not a Mustang'.

The real-time battle system was nice, but again, it didn't really feel like a final fantasy game. I could forgive it this easily enough, of course, particularly as I just tell myself that they finally learned from Chrono Trigger. So I guess it's a wash.

The whole game, it's you and your dude-bros. That's it. Okay, there's that ONE place where Freaky Chick joins you, but through 90% of the game, it is you, Mr Glasses, Mr Muscle, and Bro. There's no female playable characters (other than that one brief part), and females are largely portrayed as either cheesecake (Dude... Cid's granddaughter... got enough cleavage showing there, miss?), princess to be rescued (which you fail at), or annoying boop with her panties in a twist. So while we may have advanced technology, apparently plot-writing went backwards in time thirty years to resurrect misogyny.

Only... FF had NEVER bought into that, and had consistently strong female characters throughout the series (Rhydia, Celes, Terra, Tifa... the list goes on, as far back as playable characters have defined genders, strong females have been a part of it). So there's a break with tradition which I could certainly have done without.

In fact, it's the first time since leaving the NES/Famicon that your party roster was four. So there's another huge step backward in plot and character development.

Oh yea, character development. What ever happened to that? Eh, haven't seen it since 9 anyway, guess it got left by the wayside somewhere. Well, okay, Mr Glasses goes through a change, but doesn't really develop much from it, just does mostly the same thing despite being different.

But really, the ending was the worst downer ending of any offering in the entire franchise. You, the player, straight-up lose. Period. Even when you win, you still lose.

Okay, so basically you spend ten years contemplating your navel with Bahamaut because reasons, come back to find civilization is nearly wiped out, and then at the end you summon Knights of the Round to win. Which kills you in the process.

Now, here's the problem. Civilization has been kicked in the teeth. You're the last person recognized as any kind of leader, and you just killed yourself because you were more concerned with rejoining your bae, whom you never actually got to marry and only saw in person twice before she died, than actually being a leader for your people. And the guys who were the temporary leaders while you spent the past decade contemplating your navel? Are all dead too.

Leaderless, scattered, and well below minimum threshold... your people aren't going to survive. Humanity is finished. Done. Kaput. Congratulations, you get to spend the rest of the Afterlife with your gal and your bros, meanwhile you've ensured that humanity dies out entirely. Way to go.

So yea, big bad's revenge? Achieved. Bad guy wins. Then wins again. He doesn't lose ever. He dies to ensure his victory, whereas you die to kill him, but in the process, lose the larger war. He died knowing that you were sacrificing humanity to beat him. Now THAT's a way to go out.

So... yea. Character development is practically non-existent, we revived the classic misogynist view of gender roles in video games, we provided the worst downer ending in the franchise where the bad guy actually wins ultimately, and the only vaguely 'fantasy' things about the game were the random mooks you kill off and the summonings.

Where are the (non-deity) nonhumans that aren't out to kill you? Where is the roster to swap out from? Where is the actual fantasy?

[Anteros]

I haven't finished the story yet, so thanks a lot for talking about the ending. Seriously, why would you do that? :smallannoyed:

As for character development, there has been plenty. I'm only on chapter 8, but Noct is coming into his own as a leader, Prompto is starting to show signs of maturity, and Gladiolus is starting to see Noct as a companion/leader rather than something he needs to protect.

[danzibr]

I stopped reading after bashing 7, 8, 10, 12, and 13, yet saying 9 was decent. Perhaps a good thing too, as I don't want to read about the ending.

Personally, out of those 6 games, 9 was my least favorite.

EDIT: Looking back, that seems rude. I just mean... it's clear we have very different taste in games.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I haven't finished the story yet, so thanks a lot for talking about the ending. Seriously, why would you do that? :smallannoyed:That's why it was in spoiler tags specifically labeled 'ending spoilers'. If you chose to click on it, that's your business.



I stopped reading after bashing 7, 8, 10, 12, and 13, yet saying 9 was decent. Perhaps a good thing too, as I don't want to read about the ending.

Personally, out of those 6 games, 9 was my least favorite.

EDIT: Looking back, that seems rude. I just mean... it's clear we have very different taste in games.

To each their own, I suppose. If it wasn't branded as a final fantasy game, I might've given it more credit. But as is? Yea, not so much. But then, my introduction to the series was the original NES Final Fantasy, and I grew up on IV and VI (referred back in those days to 'Final Fantasy 2 and Final Fantasy 3 respectively). To someone whose first introduction to the series was VII, I could understand your perspective.

To let you know, there was a very dramatic change in direction the franchise took for VII and carried on with VIII. IX was the last game that the 'old school crew' made, and so it had a ton of callbacks and cameos and references that would be largely lost on someone not familiar with the earlier offerings. IX hit me right in the nostalgia, and was a good enough offering by itself, IMO.

After that, the franchise went in a very different and, to me personally, a very strange one. X was... okay-ish. I guess. I did like the mechanics of subbing in other characters mid-fight, and the revised version of the combat system worked rather well as an improvement upon the ATB system. After that, however... I just... was very disappointed in the direction the franchise had gone.

I realize that my opinion is probably going to be the outlier these days. Maybe I'm just an outdated old geezer, much like Cid was portrayed in this game, a curmudgeon grumbling about what the world has come to these days with sharp disapproval over how low the formerly noble line has fallen.

[GloatingSwine]

Okay, so basically you spend ten years contemplating your navel with Bahamaut because reasons, come back to find civilization is nearly wiped out, and then at the end you summon Knights of the Round to win. Which kills you in the process.

Now, here's the problem. Civilization has been kicked in the teeth. You're the last person recognized as any kind of leader, and you just killed yourself because you were more concerned with rejoining your bae, whom you never actually got to marry and only saw in person twice before she died, than actually being a leader for your people. And the guys who were the temporary leaders while you spent the past decade contemplating your navel? Are all dead too.

Leaderless, scattered, and well below minimum threshold... your people aren't going to survive. Humanity is finished. Done. Kaput. Congratulations, you get to spend the rest of the Afterlife with your gal and your bros, meanwhile you've ensured that humanity dies out entirely. Way to go.

So yea, big bad's revenge? Achieved. Bad guy wins. Then wins again. He doesn't lose ever. He dies to ensure his victory, whereas you die to kill him, but in the process, lose the larger war. He died knowing that you were sacrificing humanity to beat him. Now THAT's a way to go out.


Nope

The final shot is the return of the sun and thus the inevitable defeat of the Daemons (who die in sunlight). With Ardyn dead and the light of the crystal returned, you won.

The part in the World of Ruin might have needed more exposition, but it's clear that humanity is holding out in Lestallum, and the end of the decade long night will allow them to rise again.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Nope

The final shot is the return of the sun and thus the inevitable defeat of the Daemons (who die in sunlight). With Ardyn dead and the light of the crystal returned, you won.

The part in the World of Ruin might have needed more exposition, but it's clear that humanity is holding out in Lestallum, and the end of the decade long night will allow them to rise again.

Not quite.

In case you didn't notice, the sun only shines during the day. There were always monsters in the world, they just don't get to run rampant 24/7 anymore, only at night.

Besides, you don't need Daemons to kill off humanity anymore. You have a technological civilization which is used to electric powered things being knocked back to the stone age, that's not survivable without strong leadership. They might last another generation or two, but not much more than that. There's absolutely nothing in the WoR that indicates that Lestallum held out, and a heavily populated area like that is going to become a deathtrap once the utilities start going out. We're talking post-apocalyptic ruins here.

So yea. Congratulations. Humanity dies.

It says something about the game that the villain has to constantly HELP the hero get to where he's going just so he can finally settle his hash appropriately. Of course, his revenge needs the True King(tm) to manifest so he can kick his ass, so he can't just squash the twerp right from the get-go. However, said twerp is so blatantly incompetent that to GET his rematch, he's got to push the kid along. Frequently. Like in every scene. Even after he's revealed as the villain.

I guess that's what happens when you have an S-class villain with a D-class hero.

[GloatingSwine]

Not quite.

In case you didn't notice, the sun only shines during the day. There were always monsters in the world, they just don't get to run rampant 24/7 anymore, only at night.

Besides, you don't need Daemons to kill off humanity anymore. You have a technological civilization which is used to electric powered things being knocked back to the stone age, that's not survivable without strong leadership. They might last another generation or two, but not much more than that. There's absolutely nothing in the WoR that indicates that Lestallum held out, and a heavily populated area like that is going to become a deathtrap once the utilities start going out. We're talking post-apocalyptic ruins here.

So yea. Congratulations. Humanity dies.

It says something about the game that the villain has to constantly HELP the hero get to where he's going just so he can finally settle his hash appropriately. Of course, his revenge needs the True King(tm) to manifest so he can kick his ass, so he can't just squash the twerp right from the get-go. However, said twerp is so blatantly incompetent that to GET his rematch, he's got to push the kid along. Frequently. Like in every scene. Even after he's revealed as the villain.

I guess that's what happens when you have an S-class villain with a D-class hero.

Daemons have explicitly been multiplying in recent years due to Ardyn's influence in the empire. With his removal and the end of the eternal night they will fall back to their previous level which was quite manageable.

Talcott explicitly tells you that Lestallum is now the centre of human activity in the WoR because it still has power due to its magically fired eternal power plant, and explicitly tells you that Cor and Iris are responsible for most of its organisation, and that Aranea, Biggs, and Wedge are leading armies that protect it.

Humanity is explicitly in a far better state than you imply, you just don't get to actually see it in game you get told it instead.

[Knaight]

I realize that my opinion is probably going to be the outlier these days. Maybe I'm just an outdated old geezer, much like Cid was portrayed in this game, a curmudgeon grumbling about what the world has come to these days with sharp disapproval over how low the formerly noble line has fallen.

I haven't played it (and almost certainly won't, given console requirements and such), but looking over your post I saw a number of things that suggested that I would like the game (the general absence of fantasy creatures, the downer ending, the implication of natural realism within the context of the fantasy creatures implied by the hyper realism of the characters), and a few things that were major disincentives towards ever playing it (dudebro party, underlying dudebro setting perspective), and minor niggles (real time battle system, car).

[danzibr]

Huh... I'll have to be mighty careful about what I quote and whatnot, might accidentally read something I don't wish to.

But it occurred to me, as Shneekey said, it might truly be an age thing. I'm 29, and while I did play a few RPG's in my youth (not really understanding what was going on, didn't beat any of them... I remember renting Final Fantasy, and my older brother bought "II" and "III," but was in the habit of selling games after he beat them), my first "real" RPG was Phantasy Star IV for the Sega Genesis. I was 10, I think. Then shortly after (still age 10, I think), my second "real" RPG was Final Fantasy VII. Over the years I went back and played I-VI, and really enjoyed all of them (though V and, especially, III took a while to grow on me), but still, as far as FF goes, VII was my first.

My gosh, so many parentheses.

[Knaight]

But it occurred to me, as Shneekey said, it might truly be an age thing. I'm 29, and while I did play a few RPG's in my youth (not really understanding what was going on, didn't beat any of them... I remember renting Final Fantasy, and my older brother bought "II" and "III," but was in the habit of selling games after he beat them), my first "real" RPG was Phantasy Star IV for the Sega Genesis. I was 10, I think. Then shortly after (still age 10, I think), my second "real" RPG was Final Fantasy VII. Over the years I went back and played I-VI, and really enjoyed all of them (though V and, especially, III took a while to grow on me), but still, as far as FF goes, VII was my first.

It could be. With that said, I'm a fair bit younger than you, and some of what Shneekey quoted does not look good (although I'm totally on board with a downer ending).

[danzibr]

It could be. With that said, I'm a fair bit younger than you, and some of what Shneekey quoted does not look good (although I'm totally on board with a downer ending).
Ahhh.... yeah, I stopped reading before I got to the complaints. I might agree with you. It was the liking IX but disliking the rest which made me go, "Nope."

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I haven't played it (and almost certainly won't, given console requirements and such), but looking over your post I saw a number of things that suggested that I would like the game (the general absence of fantasy creatures, the downer ending, the implication of natural realism within the context of the fantasy creatures implied by the hyper realism of the characters), and a few things that were major disincentives towards ever playing it (dudebro party, underlying dudebro setting perspective), and minor niggles (real time battle system, car).

And hey, that's cool. To each their own. I freely admit that a good deal of my grumbling is based on preconceived notions developed back in the 90's on my SNES about what a 'Final Fantasy' game 'should' be. YMMV.

My real complaints, irrespective of plot, irrespective of it being deserving of being a 'final fantasy' game, are the following:

Dudebro party is VERY broseph. Complete with bro-knucks. Total bromance here. Not a single (sane) female character that is playable. Hell, for the first time since the NES, there's not even a roster of characters. It's the four dudebros having their bromance, no girls allowed. Except in that one part where one of the bros goes off to get his angst on and Crazy Chick steps in temporarily. But she's totes not part of the group, just a temporary sub.

In fact, the portrayal of the female characters here is a massively major step backward. Because no one can break up the bros, man. You've got cheesecake, you've got Crazy Chick, and you've got the 'older female with her panties in a twist' that you have to placate, and that's about it. As stereotypically misogynistic a setting as has been portrayed in decades. The only theoretically strong female is firmly ensconced as a selfless healer. Unfortunately, she never actually joins your party. And, in fact... ummm... well..

Yea, she's your fiancée, your intended, when she can be torn from healing the masses, one person at a time. And then gets killed while trying to intercede on your behalf with Leviathan.

So again... a woman can be 'strong', if she's supposed to marry a 'real hero' and is basically a healer support role to begin with.

Second, the hero is an absolute idiot. Umm... I'll spoiler this here for... reasons. That get revealed about half-way through the game.

So, the main villain. He's not just two or three steps ahead of our plucky prince, he's like a dozen plus ahead. In fact, the whiny little emo kid is SO far behind that the villain has to REPEATEDLY, literally in every single act, actually come to the heroes aid just so that he can get the real fight he's been wanting since the beginning of civilization.

Without the direct assistance of the villain, the hero could not have achieved his destiny. And the only reason the villain did it was because he wanted to prove Bahamaut wrong, which meant he NEEDED the whiny brat to power up. He had something to prove, and he couldn't prove it by squishing the arrogant little snot like a pesky insect. In fact, doing so would end the line for all time (which happens anyway) and PREVENTING him from achieving his goal.

I really pity him, you know. He did what he thought was best for the people, making his own sacrifice play, only to be told that his sacrifice didn't count worth squat, and had to watch as someone else got praised for basically doing nothing.

I'll be honest, I like the villain. In fact, he's probably the best villain since Kefka, which is high praise coming from me. Unfortunately, you have an S-class villain, and a D-class hero. Which means he is constantly having to dial it back several notches so the punk can fulfill his destiny and the villain can get the fight he wants.

It nearly makes me shed a tear when I wonder how epic the plot could've actually been had we a competent hero that didn't need the villain to bail him out every other scene. Hero manages to come through, without assistance from the villain, and just a brief cutscene to see the villain leaning back against something and smirking, maybe with the occasional snarky comment of 'yes, that's right, you go right on powering up. Maybe you'll actually be a challenge. That's right, get the blessings of the Six, activate the crystal. Then we can truly see who is right.' Dude, that would've sold everything.

But no, we had to go to the 'new era' hero who is an incompetent whiny emo who becomes actively suicidal and has to be spoon-fed everything because heaven forbid he actually get a clue.

Such wasted potential. A villain worthy of a truly epic hero to oppose, only to have to settle for this farce.

So yea. I suppose at least part of it wouldn't have been nearly as bad if they hadn't tried to make it a Final Fantasy game. If they had started a new franchise which was set in an ultra-realistic modern world, I could've probably bought it. Or maybe not. But at least I wouldn't have been able to gripe about the cars and cell phones and diesel engine trains and the rest of stuff that was copy/pasted from modern times. I could've probably been sold on an 'alternate reality timeline universe' in which this had been set pretty well. But that's only part of my problem.

[Anteros]

That's why it was in spoiler tags specifically labeled 'ending spoilers'. If you chose to click on it, that's your business.



What part about "its a downer ending and you lose no matter what" was in spoilers tags?? In fact, you continue to post untagged spoilers all over the thread.

Don't bother responding. I'm putting you on ignore before you ruin anything else since you seem incapable of respecting other people.

[Knaight]

And hey, that's cool. To each their own. I freely admit that a good deal of my grumbling is based on preconceived notions developed back in the 90's on my SNES about what a 'Final Fantasy' game 'should' be. YMMV.

Makes sense. I never really got into Final Fantasy (although I loved the first Crystal Chronicles), and my preferred fantasy subgenre is borderline historical fiction, so a lot of those complaints sounded like positives. Add in a downer ending, and under normal circumstances I would be in.

A whole game of dudebros dudebro-ing though? Screw. That. Noise.

[Anteros]

Makes sense. I never really got into Final Fantasy (although I loved the first Crystal Chronicles), and my preferred fantasy subgenre is borderline historical fiction, so a lot of those complaints sounded like positives. Add in a downer ending, and under normal circumstances I would be in.

A whole game of dudebros dudebro-ing though? Screw. That. Noise.

2 of the last 4 single player Final Fantasy games had all female casts and no one complained. 3 of the last 4 had female leads.

The misogyny claims are really ridiculous.

[Spacewolf]

Makes sense. I never really got into Final Fantasy (although I loved the first Crystal Chronicles), and my preferred fantasy subgenre is borderline historical fiction, so a lot of those complaints sounded like positives. Add in a downer ending, and under normal circumstances I would be in.

A whole game of dudebros dudebro-ing though? Screw. That. Noise.

Think people are overstating the Dude-bro thing since they don't really fit, at least by my definition. They're just a normal set of friends really.

[GloatingSwine]

2 of the last 4 single player Final Fantasy games had all female casts and no one complained. 3 of the last 4 had female leads.

The misogyny claims are really ridiculous.

This is 2016, where we can't tell stories about emotional bonds between male characters without being called misogynist for not making one of them female instead.

FFXV is a story about male group dynamics and friendships. It's not a story about "dudebros", becuase that's not what the characters are like. Even the one who looks like he should be is a lovable goof who likes camping and goofing around with his friends. People who claim that it is because they looked at the characters and just saw their gender need to take a good long look at their thought processes...

I mean there's a reason it opens with a cover of Stand by Me.

[Maryring]

2 of the last 4 single player Final Fantasy games had all female casts and no one complained. 3 of the last 4 had female leads.

The misogyny claims are really ridiculous.

Hello there pot. If you want to make an argument, make it a factual one.

There have been no main series final fantasy games with an all female cast. Which seems to be what you're referring to with your statement of "3 of the 4 had female leads", which suggests you're talking about Yuna, Ashe and Lightning. But X and XII respectively sold Tidus and Vaan as the POV characters and that makes that complaint disingenuous. Secondly, if we're counting side games there have been two Final Fantasy games with only females to play as. XIII-3 had only a single playable character, making the complaint inherently irrelevant since it'd be 100% one gender or the other. X-2 was complained about, quite strongly.

There's nothing inherently wrong with an all-male cast in a FF game. But the series has overall made an effort for a diversely gendered group, and this comes on the tail-end of X, XII and XIII where the main games were (almost) perfectly gender-balanced. Reacting to the absence of females is perfectly fair.

(Also, Shneekey, an all male group getting together does not automatically equate "dude-broing". It should be possible to play a game exploring male identity even today, so you end up really harming the integrity of your argument with such a loaded term.)

[GloatingSwine]

Hello there pot. If you want to make an argument, make it a factual one.

There have been no main series final fantasy games with an all female cast.

I know! Lets totally erect strawmen about what counts as the "main series" of Final Fantasy games! That'll be a great way to make anybody's point.


(Also, Shneekey, an all male group getting together does not automatically equate "dude-broing". It should be possible to play a game exploring male identity even today, so you end up really harming the integrity of your argument with such a loaded term.)

I would argue that it is only possible to play a game that actually attempts to explore male identity today, because that's actually quite a rare subject. It wasn't until this year that we got something like Firewatch that actually explores any genuine male identity.

A story about male group dynamics that aren't based on competitive displays of machismo but on genuine friendship is pretty damn rare, especially in videogames.

[danzibr]

For the male-female thing...

In reverse chronological order, Lightning Returns had Lightning as the protagonist, and as the only person in the party (other than a couple sidekicks), I guess an all-female crew.

XIII-2 had Serah as the protagonist, but Noel too.

XIII had Lightning as the protagonist, but dudes too.

XII had Vaan as the protagonist, but girls too.

X-2 had YuRiPa, all chicks.

X had Tidus with girls.

(I count these as the main series, but feel free to differ). So... out of 5 games, 1 or 2 with just girls, 2 or 1 with girl leads, and 2 with guy leads.

Honestly, I don't mind the brofest idea. Granted, haven't played it yet, but the thought isn't a turnoff.

[Maryring]

I know! Lets totally erect strawmen about what counts as the "main series" of Final Fantasy games! That'll be a great way to make anybody's point.

Keeping "Main series" to mean "Final Fantasy (roman numeral)" is the only way to keep the argument ingenuous. And even then I'm opening for X-2 to be counted as a main series while the Fabula Nova series count as one entry. Otherwise the statement is factually incorrect. As Danzibr mentioned.

XIII-3 Lightning only. All female playable cast and female lead.
XIII-2 Noel and Serah. Let's for the argument assume that Serah is the main character, rather than that both her and Noel are joint leads. Even then, gender equal cast.
XIII Lightning lead. Even gender spread on characters.

And then it's either XII where Ashe is arguably the lead, but Vaan is still the POV character. Again, gender equal cast. Or Type-0, which is more of an ensemble cast but Machina (male) and Rem (female) serve as leads. Which is again a gender equal cast.

So yes. The original argument can be dismissed as disingenuous, or "really ridiculous" if you prefer.

[Anteros]

By "main games" I meant non-MMOs because it would be ridiculous to include those. Of course, you knew that already. It was just easier for you to attack if you pretended otherwise.

Lightning returns was obviously all female.
XIII-2 - Serah is obviously the protagonist. You control her in portions where the party is split. 90% of the plot revolves around her, while Noel's stuff is basically a side quest. She is the default control character. Everything is her PoV.
XIII - Female protagonist, but mixed party.
XII - I actually forgot this game existed when I typed up my original post, so I suppose my original point was factually incorrect after all.
X-II - The game I was thinking of as the fourth entry instead of XII. All female cast and all female party.

So yes, I was incorrect. I should have said that 4 of the last 5 had female leads, and 2 were all female.


Before you attempt to twist my words, my point isn't that female protagonists or games with a female cast are a bad thing. My point is that accusing Final Fantasy of all series of being misogynist is ridiculous. They're probably the most even handed of any major game franchise in existence when handling gender.

[GloatingSwine]

Keeping "Main series" to mean "Final Fantasy (roman numeral)" is the only way to keep the argument ingenuous. And even then I'm opening for X-2 to be counted as a main series while the Fabula Nova series count as one entry. Otherwise the statement is factually incorrect. As Danzibr mentioned.


Do you count the MMOs though?

Why would you count the MMOs ahead of the sequels when deciding what the "main" games are given how structurally and conceptually different they are whilst the sequels are much more conceptually similar to the games they are sequels to.

(PS the person you were responding to specified single player not "main series")

(PPS Shantotto was basically the main character of FFXI* by the end and tends to be the one that reappears from it, so 5 of the last 6 have had female leads :P)


*Y'know, like Green Jesus Thrall is the main character of World of Warcraft not whatever nerd you happen to be driving around.

[darkdragoon]

Non-humans are rare, and really Red XIII is the only one that doesn't just happen to be very humanlike.

FFVII had vehicles and cell phones. FFVIII had the former but not the latter.

Of the 3 guests 2 are female and the one that is "supposed" to be cutesy slaughters Imperials barehanded. The last one can reappear and while there's some arguments that it's glitchy, can hang out with you during night.

[GloatingSwine]

FFVII also had real world branded product placement mobile phones as a major mechanic. (the party switch system was named after Japan's then largest mobile phone provider).

So even that isn't new.

[Alanzeign]

The MMOs have a lot of moving pieces, so it would be tough to call out one major character or team. Still, FFXI did always have at least a strong female presence in each expansion, though how you would classify who was important enough to count as main cast when you didn't play as any of them would be highly subjective. Despite Dissidia, I'd argue highly against Shantotto, though. :smallwink: In FFXIV there are supporting characters, but your character (either gender) is definitely the strongest moving force in the game by magnitudes.

I wouldn't count the MMOs necessarily.

I think the series as a whole has had a good spread of strong female personas. If they wanted to explore male comradery as a theme this time then I think they've earned it. Not to say that they met a "quota" for inclusiveness or something of the like, but I don't think choosing to focus on one gender or ethnicity occasionally is a bad thing either. If this is a precedent and the next several Final Fantasy titles are all focused on groups of guys and "no girls allowed" then I'll have a problem, but until then I'm not going to get my pitch fork out.


Moving away from the gender issue for a moment. Technology/Magic/Nature both separate and combined have always been a theme of FF since at least FF4 (four might be a little weak, but there's an argument to be made there). It may not seem as blatant because of the art style, but tanks, cell phones, magitek warmachines, submarines, airships, even interplanetary travel have been around for quite a while. I don't remember the NES games well, but FF6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14 have all had high technology, although there are often areas untouched by it or where it is less integrated. You can complain about the time spent in the car in 15, but can't you also just use fast travel? I will admit I'm unfamiliar with how this works as I've mostly just watched people play.

That said, from what I've seen of FF15 it does feel a lot less fantasy in aesthetic. I can't really put my finger on why, but if I had to guess I'd say it has something to do with how relaxed it comes across. The major contrasts seem to be between city and country life, which is really mundane compared to magic vs. machine or the many varied environments/cultures when traveling around the globe in previous entries of the game. Yea, I'd say it isn't the technology that makes it not feel fantasy to me, but the level of familiarity. Of course, driving around in a car and eating my favorite food would probably contribute to that.

My issue with the game is probably what a lot of people like about it. I don't like that you just run around doing random side quests all over the place like in Oblivion or Skyrim. I actually really like those games, though I like Final Fantasy games because in the past they have been different and seem to be a disappearing genre, made more evident by the fact that it now appears to be a Western RPG clone. I don't know if the plot is any good or not since there doesn't seem to be much of it because of this. I could be wrong in regards to the plot but from the little I've seen and what I've heard from others it seems to be fairly sparse.

This is my least favorite type of battle system, which is why I am watching rather than playing through myself. I prefer turn based rpgs and ATB systems (1-10). 12s system was ok, but whenever I go back to it halfway through the game I am bored. 13s was a massive change from previous entries, though when you get to the meat of the system (late game) I had a lot of fun. It is still ATB, but with a focus on controlling AI tactics rather than inputting individual commands. 13-2 dumbed things down it felt like, though it's been a long time so I can't really comment on that. I didn't play 13-3.

I can enjoy 1 character action-rpgs, though I don't often and tend to avoid them. I pretty much loathe action-rpgs with a party, such as Kingdom Hearts and FF15s battle system. This is all just personal preference, so my not liking the battle system means nothing substantial. All in all it seems pretty solid and I've heard good things, it just means that it is that much less likely for FF to return to its previous battle system. I kind of miss the class system, personally.

[Anteros]

The MMOs have a lot of moving pieces, so it would be tough to call out one major character or team. Still, FFXI did always have at least a strong female presence in each expansion, though how you would classify who was important enough to count as main cast when you didn't play as any of them would be highly subjective. Despite Dissidia, I'd argue highly against Shantotto, though. :smallwink: In FFXIV there are supporting characters, but your character (either gender) is definitely the strongest moving force in the game by magnitudes.

I wouldn't count the MMOs necessarily.

I think the series as a whole has had a good spread of strong female personas. If they wanted to explore male comradery as a theme this time then I think they've earned it. Not to say that they met a "quota" for inclusiveness or something of the like, but I don't think choosing to focus on one gender or ethnicity occasionally is a bad thing either. If this is a precedent and the next several Final Fantasy titles are all focused on groups of guys and "no girls allowed" then I'll have a problem, but until then I'm not going to get my pitch fork out.


Moving away from the gender issue for a moment. Technology/Magic/Nature both separate and combined have always been a theme of FF since at least FF4 (four might be a little weak, but there's an argument to be made there). It may not seem as blatant because of the art style, but tanks, cell phones, magitek warmachines, submarines, airships, even interplanetary travel have been around for quite a while. I don't remember the NES games well, but FF6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14 have all had high technology, although there are often areas untouched by it or where it is less integrated. You can complain about the time spent in the car in 15, but can't you also just use fast travel? I will admit I'm unfamiliar with how this works as I've mostly just watched people play.

That said, from what I've seen of FF15 it does feel a lot less fantasy in aesthetic. I can't really put my finger on why, but if I had to guess I'd say it has something to do with how relaxed it comes across. The major contrasts seem to be between city and country life, which is really mundane compared to magic vs. machine or the many varied environments/cultures when traveling around the globe in previous entries of the game. Yea, I'd say it isn't the technology that makes it not feel fantasy to me, but the level of familiarity. Of course, driving around in a car and eating my favorite food would probably contribute to that.

My issue with the game is probably what a lot of people like about it. I don't like that you just run around doing random side quests all over the place like in Oblivion or Skyrim. I actually really like those games, though I like Final Fantasy games because in the past they have been different and seem to be a disappearing genre, made more evident by the fact that it now appears to be a Western RPG clone. I don't know if the plot is any good or not since there doesn't seem to be much of it because of this. I could be wrong in regards to the plot but from the little I've seen and what I've heard from others it seems to be fairly sparse.

This is my least favorite type of battle system, which is why I am watching rather than playing through myself. I prefer turn based rpgs and ATB systems (1-10). 12s system was ok, but whenever I go back to it halfway through the game I am bored. 13s was a massive change from previous entries, though when you get to the meat of the system (late game) I had a lot of fun. It is still ATB, but with a focus on controlling AI tactics rather than inputting individual commands. 13-2 dumbed things down it felt like, though it's been a long time so I can't really comment on that. I didn't play 13-3.

I can enjoy 1 character action-rpgs, though I don't often and tend to avoid them. I pretty much loathe action-rpgs with a party, such as Kingdom Hearts and FF15s battle system. This is all just personal preference, so my not liking the battle system means nothing substantial. All in all it seems pretty solid and I've heard good things, it just means that it is that much less likely for FF to return to its previous battle system. I kind of miss the class system, personally.

There's probably 20-30 hours or so of plot if you only do the main quest. You'd miss a lot of character development though. A lot of the side quests are fairly pointless, but there's quite a few that develop the characters. Also, the dungeon side quests are the funnest part of the game (and probably the most typical fantasy-type areas, so you'd probably enjoy them.) I'm sure you could speed run it faster, but why would you?

As for fast travel. You can fast travel to the car, or to camp, or to the start of the dungeon you're in. Once you're in the car you can fast travel to anywhere you've unlocked. You do get rewarded with AP/EXP for riding in car without fast travelling, but it's less than you'd earn from a single fight.

For the battle system. There is actually a wait mode where the game pauses and allows you think about issuing commands whenever your main character isn't moving. It's still very action based though, so you probably still wouldn't like it.

[Drasius]

Wondering if I could get a bit of help on something - I've been plodding along doing OK, not great, but OK, really enjoying the combat, doing a bit of "grinding" that's not really grinding at all as I quite enjoy the fight mechanics but I've just stepped into chapter 15 and, well Noctis is lvl46 and the rest of the goon squad is ~lvl 42 and in one direction there's a pair of lvl 64 medusae and in the other is some mechanical spidery thing at lvl 72 that one shots anything it looks at, sometimes the whole party at once. Most of my weapons are up to date, trinkets mostly focusing on physical defence though I have a collection of almost everything available from the vendors. Am I just exceptionally bad or did I manage to lock myself in for a bit of trouble seeing as I can't go back and there's not really anywhere to grind XP that's not many, many hours of saves back.

[GloatingSwine]

Wondering if I could get a bit of help on something - I've been plodding along doing OK, not great, but OK, really enjoying the combat, doing a bit of "grinding" that's not really grinding at all as I quite enjoy the fight mechanics but I've just stepped into chapter 15 and, well Noctis is lvl46 and the rest of the goon squad is ~lvl 42 and in one direction there's a pair of lvl 64 medusae and in the other is some mechanical spidery thing at lvl 72 that one shots anything it looks at, sometimes the whole party at once. Most of my weapons are up to date, trinkets mostly focusing on physical defence though I have a collection of almost everything available from the vendors. Am I just exceptionally bad or did I manage to lock myself in for a bit of trouble seeing as I can't go back and there's not really anywhere to grind XP that's not many, many hours of saves back.


Chapter 15 is the postgame, so you should be able to go anywhere you like and do all the hunts and sidequests to get levels?

(Remember you can basically always travel back to the openworld from any bed, barring the annoying bits of chapter 13)

[Drasius]

Chapter 15 is the postgame, so you should be able to go anywhere you like and do all the hunts and sidequests to get levels?

(Remember you can basically always travel back to the openworld from any bed, barring the annoying bits of chapter 13)

Maybe I mean chapter 14? The bit where you return to [spoiler] the capital of Insomnia after the 10 year timeskip. I made it to Hammerhead but I completely forgot that you can [spoiler]travel to the past via the dog from most beds, since I've never used that ability before, thanks!

[GloatingSwine]

Though in Chapter 14 I'm pretty sure you could just leg it past that level 72 wotsit, just turn left at the corner and there's a subway station, nothing else in that area is above about level 40.

I was about level 75 when I did the endgame because I noodled around in chapter 8 for ages.

[Drasius]

Though in Chapter 14 I'm pretty sure you could just leg it past that level 72 wotsit, just turn left at the corner and there's a subway station, nothing else in that area is above about level 40.

I was about level 75 when I did the endgame because I noodled around in chapter 8 for ages.

Yeah, pretty much what I did, though I forgot the bit you said about the subway station and only found it after much cursing and frustration (and feeling like a big dummy after remembering that Prompto referenced it when we were standing next to it).

Totally seperate thing though:

[spoiler]
Are you ever told that you need to get your ass collectively kicked in order to summon titan (though I gather from various FF forums I perused after finishing Ch14, watching the cutsecense and having a play around with Ch15 that the summon you get is variable?) and bahamut to give ifrit a beatdown? I had that bastard at ??? hp for like 10 minutes before I noticed this new summon indicator popping up in the bottom left of my HUD. Went though a fair supply of my postion stock too for shame. For those poor buggers who play with the HUD turned off, how are they supposed to know that they have to suddenly push the one button that hasn't done anything for the past 50 hours or so?

Also, apparently summons turn up as an option when you're getting your arse kicked normally throughout the game. Was I just out of it and didn't notice or is this only a thing in the ifrit fight and for Ch15?

Also also: Is it wrong that I enjoyed the after credits bit with Noctis and the lads sitting around the campfire more than the actual ending (which was also good)?

[GloatingSwine]

Also, apparently summons turn up as an option when you're getting your arse kicked normally throughout the game. Was I just out of it and didn't notice or is this only a thing in the ifrit fight and for Ch15?


The summons in the Ifrit fight are scripted.

Otherwise they have different criteria for showing up. Titan will be available more often if members of your party are down, Leviathan if Noctis is in Danger state, and Ramuh just more likely the longer encounters go on. The more combination of all three of those you have, the more likely it is for Shiva to show up instead.

Bahamut only summons during the Ifrit fight.

Additionally Titan can only summon outside and Leviathan near water.

Which means that you're much more likely to summon Ramuh than anything else, because all you have to do is drag out a fight and he can summon underground (has a different attack when he does).

[Antonok]

Leviathan near water.

This is actually not quite true. I've summoned Leviathan when I was no where near water (I checked). Think it just gives him an increased chance of showing up, not for him to show up period.

[Drasius]

The summons in the Ifrit fight are scripted.

Otherwise they have different criteria for showing up. Titan will be available more often if members of your party are down, Leviathan if Noctis is in Danger state, and Ramuh just more likely the longer encounters go on. The more combination of all three of those you have, the more likely it is for Shiva to show up instead.

Bahamut only summons during the Ifrit fight.

Additionally Titan can only summon outside and Leviathan near water.

Which means that you're much more likely to summon Ramuh than anything else, because all you have to do is drag out a fight and he can summon underground (has a different attack when he does).

Nifty. While cool and very thematic, it's also kind of a shame that you can't just call 'em at will. Though one thing I would still like to know; are they an option to appear anytime after you've gotten them and I never noticed or are they only available in Ch 15? Cheers for the help by the way!

[GloatingSwine]

Nifty. While cool and very thematic, it's also kind of a shame that you can't just call 'em at will. Though one thing I would still like to know; are they an option to appear anytime after you've gotten them and I never noticed or are they only available in Ch 15? Cheers for the help by the way!

They can show up any time once you get them. I spent ages in chapter 8 and Ramuh was my main "make boring Red Giant go away" button.

[Drasius]

They can show up any time once you get them. I spent ages in chapter 8 and Ramuh was my main "make boring Red Giant go away" button.

Oh man, I can't belive I spent that long and never noticed. One time I got stuck with a red giant and I was pinned in by terrain and stuck doing like 2 damage a hit for ages with everyone else dead, so I just dodged and waited for the sun to come up. By that time I was so annoyed, I kept fighting (well, dodging really) and let him eat the ~500 damage ticks from the sun until he finally popped. If I had of known/noticed I could have just blasted him like that, I totally would have. Once again, thanks for the info.

[Anteros]

I don't always notice when the button pops up, but the music also changes when a summon is available which is an easy indicator.

[BlueHerring]

I don't always notice when the button pops up, but the music also changes when a summon is available which is an easy indicator.

To add onto this, my screen had this purple tinge to it when the Ramuh summon became available. First time I summoned him was when I'd just finished getting a Sturdy Helixhorn for my Engine Blade III quest, so it was kinda funny to have all the Spiracorns and Duplicorns get wiped instantly.

[Anteros]

So I finally finished the game and I'm satisfied enough. I'm pretty sure the Chocobros all survived, humanity has a decent chance to rebuild, and although Noctis dies, he gets to chill in heaven or something.

I would have really enjoyed a chance to explore the world of ruin though. I know the game is already enormous, and asking for almost a whole new map is unreasonable, but it still feels like a missed opportunity.

We started on the post game content last night, and the secret dungeon was actually really fun. I'm glad I was playing it with a friend, because passing the controller around really helps with the frustration. I might have broken the controller or quit if I was playing alone.

[Spacewolf]

So I decided to try out one of those Post game dungeons I'd just found out today existed. Went for the closest one to me without checking it's level (I was 61 at the start) turn out I'd picked the level 99 dungeon with 100 floors. By the time I reached the final boss I had 4 Hi-Elxers, 2 Mega phoenix and 1 phoenix left, plus a few mega and hi potions. What followed was probably the tensest boss fight I've had in this game with the boss flying around, capable of 1HKoing my party in one hit, while I tried to get my Armoury charged up along with Gladiolus' drop attack. Eventually with no more phoenix downs left Ignus and Noct stood triumphant.

Honestly I would have been in an extremely bad mood if I'd lost there, after fight all the damn Tonberrys to get to the final boss and forgetting that I could leave through the map screen (I thought that since the doors blocked off behind you you where not allowed to leave until you reached the bottom.)

[Anteros]

So I decided to try out one of those Post game dungeons I'd just found out today existed. Went for the closest one to me without checking it's level (I was 61 at the start) turn out I'd picked the level 99 dungeon with 100 floors. By the time I reached the final boss I had 4 Hi-Elxers, 2 Mega phoenix and 1 phoenix left, plus a few mega and hi potions. What followed was probably the tensest boss fight I've had in this game with the boss flying around, capable of 1HKoing my party in one hit, while I tried to get my Armoury charged up along with Gladiolus' drop attack. Eventually with no more phoenix downs left Ignus and Noct stood triumphant.

Honestly I would have been in an extremely bad mood if I'd lost there, after fight all the damn Tonberrys to get to the final boss and forgetting that I could leave through the map screen (I thought that since the doors blocked off behind you you where not allowed to leave until you reached the bottom.)

That sounds like a fun time, and a great video game memory.

I haven't done them all yet, but I'm pretty sure that one you did is the longest by far. There's a higher level one in the castle place. It's much shorter, but you can't use items in it.

If you haven't done it yet, try out the secret dungeon that you unlock by listening at the window in Lestallum from 21-24 on the clock. It's really different, frustrating, and fun. Make sure you save before you go in and when you come out though. You can't save inside and it's easy to get a game over right after you leave and lose all your progress.

[Spacewolf]

That sounds like a fun time, and a great video game memory.

I haven't done them all yet, but I'm pretty sure that one you did is the longest by far. There's a higher level one in the castle place. It's much shorter, but you can't use items in it.

If you haven't done it yet, try out the secret dungeon that you unlock by listening at the window in Lestallum from 21-24 on the clock. It's really different, frustrating, and fun. Make sure you save before you go in and when you come out though. You can't save inside and it's easy to get a game over right after you leave and lose all your progress.

Is that the one you need te flying car to get to because I'm trying to get there at the moment, only to find out how much I hate the landing controls.

[Anteros]

Is that the one you need te flying car to get to because I'm trying to get there at the moment, only to find out how much I hate the landing controls.

Yeah, that's the one. I got it on the first try through pure blind luck.

[Spacewolf]

Yeah, that's the one. I got it on the first try through pure blind luck.

Right just done that I take it the save before hand was to avoid having to do the flying bit again the the case of a rage quit since you can't die in this dungeon. But yea I hated this dungeon especially how short your vision was.

[Anteros]

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it. Those parts frustrated me too, but I thought the platformer parts (especially the first half of the dungeon) were fun enough to make up for it.