Highest Sustained Damage Build?

[Jarlhen]

If you were looking to do the highest sustained damage possible, what would you do? Something level 9 to 11. All Unearthed Arcana allowed, as well as Matt Mercer's blood hunter.

[djreynolds]

If you were looking to do the highest sustained damage possible, what would you do? Something level 9 to 11. All Unearthed Arcana allowed, as well as Matt Mercer's blood hunter.

Well that's it. Sustained.

Warlock's EB is nasty, a champion can go without rest and crit... theoretically

But for me, it has to be a strength based rogue with shield master. Prone someone and strike with advantage for your sneak attack and possibly crit. Take a level of some class with a shield or take moderately armored and shield master... 5d6 every turn... no rest, no spells just expertise in athletics.

Warlock I think is 3d10 plus charisma and force is nice.

[hymer]

Do summons, raised undead and other minions count as sustained?

[Asmotherion]

Well, for ranged spellcasting/Blaster, if we are talking sustained, Warlock 2-3/Sorcerer X does the Blaster Trick. You deal Xd10+X*Cha Modifier damage at-will. X is 1 'till 5, 2 at levels 5-10, 3 at levels 11-17, and 4 at 17-20. You also have a reliable resource to enhance that damage via quicken spell, and it's sustained enough to be able to use it almost all day around. Add hex to that, and you are looking at 8d10+8d6+40 end game, witch is a very good sustained dammage. Double that if you're using a simulacrum. Thus 16d10+16d6+80 Damage.

Fighter for melee, with two weapon fighting and Hex via Magic Initiate. End game you probably should have a couple +3 Flame Tongue/Frost Brand weapons to wreak elemental furry uppon your opponents. You also want the Dual Wielder feat.

For ranged, I supose it's the fighter again, this time with Archery FS and Hex via Magic Initiate. Sharpshooter and crossbow expert would be my suggestions here.

[Theodoric]

At level 11 I'd go with a great weapon fighter with a greatsword or maul. Even without feats that's 3 attacks at 2d6+Str with a reroll of damage rolls of 1 and 2, and a Str that's probably 18 or 20.

[Citan]

For a highest sustained damage, at level 11, my initial thought would have been a Champion Fighter with GWM, for 3 or 4 attacks per turn. With that said, I'm not sure it would be valid to account for the +10. After all, it means that you really have to enable advantage to offset the -5. Otherwise, chances you will miss are too high imo.

And if you don't use GWM bonus, Figher becomes less competitive. Best would be TWF with Dueling, for 4 attacks per turn with 1d8+mod (because Fighter can afford to take the related feat), or Crossbow Expert.

Hunter Ranger gets the best shot here: either Volley (potentially trumping anything else), or "plain" Extra Attack + bonus action (crossbow or dueling) with the addition of Hunter's Mark, and possibly Horde Breaker. So you still get 3 or 4 attacks minimum (with Crossbow Expert, easy to enable Horde Breaker), and the lesser Dexterity compared to Fighter (lesser ASI) is compensated in damage by Hunter's Mark.
Which you can include in sustained damage because Ranger has enough spellcasting to have it active every encounter.

Then for a multiclass, my pyromancer gets the best shot:
Undying Light Warlock 1 / Draconic Sorcerer 6 / Swashbuckler Rogue 4
Obviously Green Flame Blade is the spell of choice here.
At 11th level, you deal 1d8+mod (weapon) + 2d8 (spell) + CHA (Warlock) + CHA (Sorcerer) + 2d6 (Sneak Attack) to your first target, and 1d8+3*CHA to adjacent target. And you still get your bonus action for whatever you want.
You could even consider "twinned GFB" to be sustainable if you accept to blow every slot into Sorcery points to fuel Quicken.
Big problem is fire resistance though. ;)

[Spacehamster]

Fighter 2 / Warlock 2 / Sorcerer 7

Half elf starting stats 16/8/16/8/10/16 use the ASI to put CHA to 18.

Edritch blast for 1d10 + 4 with 3 beams all day long + have the possibility to quicken + action surge for 9d10 + 36 as well.

[Socratov]

I'd go dual wielding rapier fighter 1/Swashbuckler 8-10 Var. Human: Feats mobile & Dual Wield rest in dex, at lvl 9 you have 4d6 sneak attack, wielding 2 rapiers with Dual wield feat and the TWF fighting style that is each round for action and bonus action 2d8+2*4+4d6, at lvl 11 that becomes 2d8+2*5+5d6. All day, every day. And yes, moving counts as getting sneak atack for swashbucklers so that;s no problem at all and while you use your bonus action on a rapier you can still move away without problems. As for your dex, if you start with a 16 dex as Var. Human (which is possible), you get your var. for dual wield, 4th rogue ASI for mobile, and 8th rogue for dex to 18 (so at 9th lvl you deal 4 dex bonus dmage) and at 10 you get a bonus ASI (due to being a rogue) for dex to 20.

I would count the GWM Fighter as it gets a possible extra attack (on kill or crit) but the -5 penalty definitely still counts in this playing tier and would definitely affect your sustained damage (as actually hitting is important to actually deliver the damage).

[Specter]

Agonizing Blast Warlock or Rogue in general. No resource expenditure whatsoever.

[JellyPooga]

What are you looking for when you say "sustained"?

- No resource investment?
- Consistent DPR?
- Damage per combat?
- Damage per short/long rest?

The answers will differ based on precisely what you're looking for. Some Spellcasters are very good at putting out significant damage in a single combat, even if their single turn damage is weak and it will cost them resources, making their potential damage per day limited.

On the other hand, Rogues have a good DPR that they can "sustain" indefinitely, but have no reliable means to improve that by expending resources, giving them poor nova output and relatively poor damage over the course of a single combat compared to the aforementioned Spellcaster.

[Grod_The_Giant]

vHuman Fighter 11 with Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert, using a hand crossbow, I'm guessing. More accurate than a Polearm Master/GWM attacker, and more attacks and more damage than a Warlock.

[Giant2005]

Level 11 isn't exactly ideal for the build, but one of the top sustained damage dealers is Warlock 2/EK 7/Rogue X (EB with action, Sneak-enhanced Heavy Crossbow for bonus action). At that level it will only have 2 Rogue levels though, so that sneak attack isn't doing much.

[Sir cryosin]

Vhuman with mobile and arcane trickster with booming blade.

[Douche]

Matt Mercer's blood hunter is unquestionably the highest. Probably. I phrase it that way because I don't question it.

Hand crossbow, crossbow expert, order of the ghost slayer. Half orc for savage crits. At level 11 you add your wisdom modifier to blood rite damage, in addition to your dexterity. With a +1 crossbow, +4 dex & +3 wisdom, I'm dealing 24 damage a turn without even rolling 2d6 for damage (per hit)

I regularly deal 40 damage with my basic attacks, meanwhile the unoptimized sorcerer in the party is casting 5th level scorching ray (don't know why, I keep telling him upcasting it is pointless) and can't surpass me. It's a source of jealousy. I keep trying to tell him that blaster casters are lame. I also control the NPC bard in combat & game him animate objects. Even the 8 pebbles I control deal more damage (and sustained damage, at that) than his cruddy scorching rays.

[Asmotherion]

Matt Mercer's blood hunter is unquestionably the highest. Probably. I phrase it that way because I don't question it.

Hand crossbow, crossbow expert, order of the ghost slayer. Half orc for savage crits. At level 11 you add your wisdom modifier to blood rite damage, in addition to your dexterity. With a +1 crossbow, +4 dex & +3 wisdom, I'm dealing 24 damage a turn without even rolling 2d6 for damage (per hit)

I regularly deal 40 damage with my basic attacks, meanwhile the unoptimized sorcerer in the party is casting 5th level scorching ray (don't know why, I keep telling him upcasting it is pointless) and can't surpass me. It's a source of jealousy. I keep trying to tell him that blaster casters are lame. I also control the NPC bard in combat & game him animate objects. Even the 8 pebbles I control deal more damage (and sustained damage, at that) than his cruddy scorching rays.

Incorect. Have you ever seen what a Warlock can do with eldritch blasts? Blaster Casters are amazing, when they are used the right way. Which, more oftern than not, involves diping at least 2 warlock levels, but that's an other story.

Average Optimised Warlock 3/Sorcerer X DPT:
Lv1: 8
Lv2: 13
Lv5: 28
Lv6: 28; 56 Nova
Lv11: 46; 92 Sustained
Lv17: 56; 112 Sustained
Lv20: 112; 224 Sustained; 348 Nova

Using a spell slot to blast is situational, not a resource of sustained dammage. That's why you have cantrips.

If you are talking about cool factors, that's a matter of opinion. Personally, I find a good Warlock the coolest character I could make, but I respect everyone has preferances.

[Douche]

Incorect. Have you ever seen what a Warlock can do with eldritch blasts? Blaster Casters are amazing, when they are used the right way. Which, more oftern than not, involves diping at least 2 warlock levels, but that's an other story.

Average Optimised Warlock 3/Sorcerer X DPT:
Lv1: 8
Lv2: 13
Lv5: 28
Lv6: 28; 56 Nova
Lv11: 46; 92 Sustained
Lv17: 56; 112 Sustained
Lv20: 112; 224 Sustained; 348 Nova

Using a spell slot to blast is situational, not a resource of sustained dammage. That's why you have cantrips.

If you are talking about cool factors, that's a matter of opinion. Personally, I find a good Warlock the coolest character I could make, but I respect everyone has preferances.


How is 3 1d10 eldritch blasts with only 1 damage modifier better than 3 2d6 (the crimson rite goes higher as you level) + dex&wis?

Not trying to be condescending. I actually want to know what I'm not seeing

[Yagyujubei]

How is 3 1d10 eldritch blasts with only 1 damage modifier better than 3 2d6 (the crimson rite goes higher as you level) + dex&wis?

Not trying to be condescending. I actually want to know what I'm not seeing

yur not taking hex into account for one thing. 3d10+3d6+CHA*3

[Asmotherion]

How is 3 1d10 eldritch blasts with only 1 damage modifier better than 3 2d6 (the crimson rite goes higher as you level) + dex&wis?

Not trying to be condescending. I actually want to know what I'm not seeing

Hex, a level 1 spell, which makes great synergy with Eldritch Blast. It adds 1d6 necrotic damage to the hexed target each time it takes damage. It's only for single target damage though. But as soon as you kill the hexed opponent you can replace hex to an other target, as long as it's duration has not ended. At level 1 it's duration is 1 hour, upcasting at level 2 or 3 makes the duration 8 hours, and at level 5, 24 hours.

It goes like this:

Use a bonus action to cast Hex on an opponent of choice (possibly twin it too as a sorcerer). Then, whenever they receve a hit, they take an extra d6 of necrotic damage. As eldritch blast deals it's damage in ceparate attack rolls, each of them quallyfies as a hit, making each beam deal 1d10+1d6+5. As level progress, you get more beams, and by combining it with Sorcerer Mechanics, you can effectivelly double the number of beams you have. So, as early as level 6 (enough levels to both have 2 rays and access to quicken metamagic (though, only a small amount of times per short rest), you can nova at 4d10+4d6+20. This only gets more consistant at higher levels, as you get more spell points to fuel quicken spell, and more spell slots you can exchange as a bonus action for spell points to do the same. By level 11, your Eldritch blast has 3 beams, thus effectivelly 6 time to apply Hex, aka 6d10+6d6+30. At level 17, you get the fourth beam, quicken for 8d10+8d6+40. At this level, it's also consistent enough to use to be considered the default attack form. Finally, the Lv20 Capstone of this build is added as soon as you get to level 20, were you have access to the Wish spell. Use it to replicate the Simulacrum spell (that is otherwise not in your spell list), to make a simulacrum of yourself. It will usually last a day or two 'till it's out of spell slots to use metamagic, and minus the non replenishing spell slots and the diminished HP maximum, it can do everything you can. It also acts on your initiative, thus doubling your already doubled DPT. This means you deal 8d10+8d6+40 (as long as it's with you) without using metamagic, or 16d10+16d6+80 using metamagic. As soon as your Simulacrum is out of spell slots, or otherwise destroyed, you can simply use the Wish spell again to create an other one. Finally, the Nova damage I included is counted as follows: Quickened Meteor Swarm by the caster, Quickened Disintegrade (at level 8) by the simulacrum, eldritch blast by the caster, eldritch blast by the simulacrum.

[CaptainSarathai]

The question is whether or not the use of Slots for Hex and Sorc Points for Metamagic counts as "sustained." You can't technically do it indefinitely.

I'd have to add in DracSorc6, Undying Light TomeLock 3-4. Take 1-2 levels of Rogue, Fighter, or Paladin for fun.

Just the Drac Sorc and ULock is gonna give you Green Flame Blade and +Cha to damage twice per hit. Taking Lock to 3 and going Tome will net you Shillelagh, for a D8 weapon that attacks/damages with Cha.

At 11th level you could easily go 6/4/1 Sorc/Lock/Fighter for 2ASIs and Duellist Style. Ideally those ASIs go to Elemental Adept to overcome the common Resistances to Fire, and to Warcaster so you can use GFB as a Reaction. For this argument though, we'll say you just dumped them both into +2Cha on your starting 16, for 20 total.

Damage at 11th -
3d8+17 = 30.5 to one target
2d8+5 = 14 to secondary target

Alternately, EK7, ULTomeLock17 would have GFB and +Cha once, but get to attack after casting. So:
4d8+19 = 37 to primary
14 to secondary

The build can obviously change, but that's really the crux of it.
If you're allowed to use Spells, you can add Hex to that. Metamagic let's you Twin Hex (+d6 to primary and secondary if they stand next to each other like idiots) and Quicken on the GFB to swing as a bonus action.
There's obviously Darkness+Devil's Sight, and Rogue for lots of easy sneak attacking.
Paladin nets you some kind of Flame Smite spell as a bonus action, which is a separate source of Fire damage and might arguably trigger +2xCha again, along with adding a couple of dice to the hit.

[Yagyujubei]

hex is 100% sustainable at 11th level.

thats three slots worth of 24 hour duration hex. if you're in a campaign where you go 72 hours without even a short rest there's something wrong

[Ravinsild]

I would guess there's no such thing as a melee/martial character who can do anything like that Warlock build? No super sustained Barbarians or Fighters or Rogues or anything? Does melee drop off and become worthless again like in past editions? :(

[Asmotherion]

I would guess there's no such thing as a melee/martial character who can do anything like that Warlock build? No super sustained Barbarians or Fighters or Rogues or anything? Does melee drop off and become worthless again like in past editions? :(

I said no such thing. A lot of melee builds can be very strong, and compete with this build, I'm just mentioning it as an example that "Blaster Spellcasters" are not lame at all - quite the contrary in fact.

As a matter of fact, many melee characters can upgrade their DPT by also taking Hex/Hunter's Mark via magic Initiate (the feat). Bear Totem Barbarians can tank almost anything, taking half damage from all sources. Two-Weapon Fighters do amazing DPT with their 8 attacks. Sorladins (Sorcerer/Paladins) do amazing Nova damage. And Rogues sneak attack every turn, with potential to come out of encounters without a scratch. Also, SCAG Cantrips can turn almost anyone into a competitive Melee character, wile anyone can use magic initiate to get Eldritch Blast and Hex to moonlight as a blaster. Ultimatelly, 5e is all about playing what you want most, as by combining specific core material (I'm not gonna talk about UA), you can make almost any character you can imagin. Usually, if you could not, it would propably be too over-powered.


The question is whether or not the use of Slots for Hex and Sorc Points for Metamagic counts as "sustained." You can't technically do it indefinitely.

I'd have to add in DracSorc6, Undying Light TomeLock 3-4. Take 1-2 levels of Rogue, Fighter, or Paladin for fun.

Just the Drac Sorc and ULock is gonna give you Green Flame Blade and +Cha to damage twice per hit. Taking Lock to 3 and going Tome will net you Shillelagh, for a D8 weapon that attacks/damages with Cha.

At 11th level you could easily go 6/4/1 Sorc/Lock/Fighter for 2ASIs and Duellist Style. Ideally those ASIs go to Elemental Adept to overcome the common Resistances to Fire, and to Warcaster so you can use GFB as a Reaction. For this argument though, we'll say you just dumped them both into +2Cha on your starting 16, for 20 total.

Damage at 11th -
3d8+17 = 30.5 to one target
2d8+5 = 14 to secondary target

Alternately, EK7, ULTomeLock17 would have GFB and +Cha once, but get to attack after casting. So:
4d8+19 = 37 to primary
14 to secondary

The build can obviously change, but that's really the crux of it.
If you're allowed to use Spells, you can add Hex to that. Metamagic let's you Twin Hex (+d6 to primary and secondary if they stand next to each other like idiots) and Quicken on the GFB to swing as a bonus action.
There's obviously Darkness+Devil's Sight, and Rogue for lots of easy sneak attacking.
Paladin nets you some kind of Flame Smite spell as a bonus action, which is a separate source of Fire damage and might arguably trigger +2xCha again, along with adding a couple of dice to the hit.

The idea is that, wile he has a very good At-Will DPT, his Metamagically Enhanced DPT is sustainable enough to use for many encounters per day. Let's look at the math:

If said build was to dedicate all his spell slots only for fueling metamagic, he would have a total of 92 spell points per Long rest. However, 5 of them will be dedicated to casting Hex, as a level 5 spell. This means we are down to 87 Spell points. Wile I do agree he will probably not use at least his 9th level spell slot to fuel metamagic, most of the time, it's still a viable option for him, so I shall include it in the math.

With 87 Spell Points, and Quicken Spell costing 2 spell points, he can fuel Quickened Spell 43 times per Long rest. An average encounter gives him 6 turns turns of activating it, making him able to use it for 8 average encounters per day. For especially difficult encounters, they would take maybe twice as much, making him use it for 4 Deadly encounters per day. Obviously, he can also save up, if an encounter is not too much trouble, and just hit with his (still respected) At-Will DPT. If after 8 Average encounters or 4 Deadly encounters (or any combination of the 2) the characters don't get a long rest, which is highly unprobable, he still has a very good DPT for the rest of the 24 hours the Hex spell is still in effect.

Conclusion: I think we can safely call the DPT sustainable.


hex is 100% sustainable at 11th level.

thats three slots worth of 24 hour duration hex. if you're in a campaign where you go 72 hours without even a short rest there's something wrong

Exactly.

[Giant2005]

hex is 100% sustainable at 11th level.

thats three slots worth of 24 hour duration hex. if you're in a campaign where you go 72 hours without even a short rest there's something wrong

Hex doesn't last for 24 hours at 11th level, it lasts for 24 hours or until someone breaks your concentration - that is a pretty significant difference. That 100% sustainable Hex could only be up for a number of seconds.

[Asmotherion]

Hex doesn't last for 24 hours at 11th level, it lasts for 24 hours or until someone breaks your concentration - that is a pretty significant difference. That 100% sustainable Hex could only be up for a number of seconds.

With taking a Sorcerer Level first, it is more or less unlikly to break concentration. You get proficiency in Constitution Saves, and with Warcaster you have advantage to do so for concentration. As most things that can cause massive damage in a single hit are melee oriented, and a mage can fly to make sure not to get in melee with those things in 7 out of 10 cases (in my experiance, at least), plus access to Blink, Mirror Image and other usefull defensive spells, this build makes sure that Hex can be maintained for the full duration most of the time. Also, counterspell is there to prevent enemy spellcasters from messing with the build. It does down Spell Point Count to fuel Metamagic, but that's the best part of this build: It has options on were to invest your points, when to do so etc.

Exceptions might occure obviously, but its still sustainable enough to be considered At-Will damage.

[Douche]

Hex, a level 1 spell, which makes great synergy with Eldritch Blast. It adds 1d6 necrotic damage to the hexed target each time it takes damage. It's only for single target damage though. But as soon as you kill the hexed opponent you can replace hex to an other target, as long as it's duration has not ended. At level 1 it's duration is 1 hour, upcasting at level 2 or 3 makes the duration 8 hours, and at level 5, 24 hours.

It goes like this:

etc

Fair enough, although your version of sustained is questionable.

The OP asked for level 9-11. Not level 20. If you're taking all 3 levels in warlock at the start, then you only have between 6-8 sorcery points, so you can only quicken 3-4 times.

Also, I'm not sure how calculating average dice works, so I used a google calculator. A sorclock sustained damage, as you've put it, is 43 without using sorcery points. That's 3d10+3d6+15

The blood hunter rolling 6d6+24 is 45 damage, with a much smaller bell curve (meaning more consistency)


With taking a Sorcerer Level first, it is more or less unlikly to break concentration. You get proficiency in Constitution Saves, and with Warcaster you have advantage to do so for concentration. As most things that can cause massive damage in a single hit are melee oriented, and a mage can fly to make sure not to get in melee with those things in 7 out of 10 cases (in my experiance, at least), plus access to Blink, Mirror Image and other usefull defensive spells, this build makes sure that Hex can be maintained for the full duration most of the time. Also, counterspell is there to prevent enemy spellcasters from messing with the build. It does down Spell Point Count to fuel Metamagic, but that's the best part of this build: It has options on were to invest your points, when to do so etc.

Exceptions might occure obviously, but its still sustainable enough to be considered At-Will damage.

See, now you're just adding a bunch of conditions & stuff that are making it less and less sustainable. You're also listing feats which, at level 11, means your Cha isn't going to hit 20. But I'm not going to nitpick that, you might have a rod of the pact keeper or something which would replace that +1 on your damage.

Still though, as a blood hunter, I literally roll the dice 3 times a turn & walk away from my enemies. Or sometimes walk into them if everyone else is taking damage and I want to soak up my share. It actually gets boring for me sometimes, just doing 3 basic attacks & dealing the highest damage in the party (besides the rogue/pally nova damage). It's a running joke at my table to see how suspensefully I can say "I attack 3 times"

[Ravinsild]

Matt Mercer is a great DM but his Gunslinger nor his Blood Hunter are official in any way. I would expect Homebrew stuff to be a bit imba. The SorcLock is completely 5e PHB.

[Douche]

Matt Mercer is a great DM but his Gunslinger nor his Blood Hunter are official in any way. I would expect Homebrew stuff to be a bit imba. The SorcLock is completely 5e PHB.

Ya but the option is on the table because the OP specified it.

I wouldn't ask you "What's your favorite kind of pizza? Including boiled rat" and then disregard your answer when someone else says "boiled rat isn't a topping your normally put on pizza"

[Asmotherion]

Fair enough, although your version of sustained is questionable.

The OP asked for level 9-11. Not level 20. If you're taking all 3 levels in warlock at the start, then you only have between 6-8 sorcery points, so you can only quicken 3-4 times.

Also, I'm not sure how calculating average dice works, so I used a google calculator. A sorclock sustained damage, as you've put it, is 43 without using sorcery points. That's 3d10+3d6+15

The blood hunter rolling 6d6+24 is 45 damage, with a much smaller bell curve (meaning more consistency)

It's however not necessary to take all 3 Warlock levels from the start. I would suggest the progression as:
Sorcerer 1/Warlock 2/Sorcerer 8/Warlock 1/Sorcerer 8. The final Warlock level is there only for the pact choice, which, wile gives good options (pact of the tome comes to mind, for shilelagh, and thus have the option to go melee) is not essential to the build.

I never said the blood hunter was not more consistant, I'm just saying this build is consistant enough to consider the doubled DPT consistant.



See, now you're just adding a bunch of conditions & stuff that are making it less and less sustainable. You're also listing feats which, at level 11, means your Cha isn't going to hit 20. But I'm not going to nitpick that, you might have a rod of the pact keeper or something which would replace that +1 on your damage.

With a benefical race, like Tiefling/Half-Elf/Aasimar, picking Charisma as your Highest Stat and then Using one Ability Score Improvement for Charisma is more than enough to get Cha to 20. You then have one more ASI to use for War Caster. You just need one initial ability score at 16, witch in my experience is more than usual.

I am not adding a bunsh of conditions and stuff. I am only explaining the build further. I never changed a thing from the begining, just clearyfy things I did not before.

Just to have it mentioned, I suggest Tiefling Variant with the Wings option, +2 Charisma, +1 Intelligence as the Race.



Still though, as a blood hunter, I literally roll the dice 3 times a turn & walk away from my enemies. Or sometimes walk into them if everyone else is taking damage and I want to soak up my share. It actually gets boring for me sometimes, just doing 3 basic attacks & dealing the highest damage in the party (besides the rogue/pally nova damage). It's a running joke at my table to see how suspensefully I can say "I attack 3 times"

Perhaps a small miscalculation on my part, as when I did the math again I found an average of 41. In any case, I'll count spell points at level 11:

31 SP from spell slots (counting out the 5th level spell slot to cast Hex), and 9 from class spell points for a total of 40 SP at level 11. That means 20 turns a day, and a 4 spell point return each time you short rest (from pact magic).

This means that, at level 11 his DPT is 82, and sustainable for 20 turns per day +2turns per short rest. After that, his DPT drops to half that, witch is still a respectable DPT (compared to your build, it's only 4 damage diferance). Also, he has the option to use them whenever necessary, so he can keep them for the Boss fight (example given in case of specific settings/games that push resources to a minimum possible), or keep using them all the time for an average of 4 encounters, or 2 deadly encounters... after which, usually comes a long rest.

I do agree that your option is more sustainable fundamentally, my arguement here is that this build is sustainable enough to do the damage I mention at-will most of the time effectivelly doubling it's DPR for 20+ rounds a day.

[Ravinsild]

Ya but the option is on the table because the OP specified it.

I wouldn't ask you "What's your favorite kind of pizza? Including boiled rat" and then disregard your answer when someone else says "boiled rat isn't a topping your normally put on pizza"

Oh I know. I'm just saying in case anyone is reading this thread and Blood Hunter isn't an option on the table (probably my DM wouldn't let me use it) I found this thread interesting for Book related builds.

That's why I asked if melee could keep up.

[Zene]

So to preface this, I don't use UA, so I have no idea what kind of broken playtesty craziness you can do with that. But for AL-legal builds, at 11, single target, I believe it's what Grod said:


vHuman Fighter 11 with Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert, using a hand crossbow, I'm guessing. More accurate than a Polearm Master/GWM attacker, and more attacks and more damage than a Warlock.

...but adding that the feat at Fighter 6 should be Magic Initiate for Hex, and the ASI at Fighter 8 should be Dex +1.

First round will be cast or retarget Hex as bonus action, then 3 hand crossbow attacks with sharpshooter, each doing 1d6 base + 1d6 hex + 4 (dex bonus) + 10 (sharpshooter). So that's an average of 63 in the first round if all attacks hit. Subsequent rounds you then use your bonus action for the Crossbow Expert bonus attack, for an average 84 per round if all attacks hit.

If we're talking level 9 or 10: Since fighter doesn't get 3rd attack til 11, Ranger Hunter is a better way to go; with horde breaker they get a situational extra attack on a second target, so it's a good deal more dpr than the fighter build from levels 3 through 10 (and a good deal less damage than the fighter from levels 11 onward). Ranger gets less ASIs, but has Hunter's Mark so doesn't need Magic Initiate for Hex. So it'd be (at 9 or 10) average first-round damage of 42 if all hit, with a possible additional average 21 on a second nearby target; and subsequent rounds average 63 damage, with a possible additional average 21 on a second nearby target.

That's all using no surges, hastes, magic items, etc... all of which would of course boost it further.

[Ravinsild]

Is the highest DPR Barbarian just a pure Frenzy Barbarian with GWM GWF Polearm stuff? What's the highest combination of whatever class combo stuff you can do to make the highest possible DPR Barbarian? Just curious where they rank compared to you know that Warlock build and Fighter Sharpshooter build etc..

[Asmotherion]

So to preface this, I don't use UA, so I have no idea what kind of broken playtesty craziness you can do with that. But for AL-legal builds, at 11, single target, I believe it's what Grod said:



...but adding that the feat at Fighter 6 should be Magic Initiate for Hex, and the ASI at Fighter 8 should be Dex +1.

First round will be cast or retarget Hex as bonus action, then 3 hand crossbow attacks with sharpshooter, each doing 1d6 base + 1d6 hex + 4 (dex bonus) + 10 (sharpshooter). So that's an average of 63 in the first round if all attacks hit. Subsequent rounds you then use your bonus action for the Crossbow Expert bonus attack, for an average 84 per round if all attacks hit.

If we're talking level 9 or 10: Since fighter doesn't get 3rd attack til 11, Ranger Hunter is a better way to go; with horde breaker they get a situational extra attack on a second target, so it's a good deal more dpr than the fighter build from levels 3 through 10 (and a good deal less damage than the fighter from levels 11 onward). Ranger gets less ASIs, but has Hunter's Mark so doesn't need Magic Initiate for Hex. So it'd be (at 9 or 10) average first-round damage of 42 if all hit, with a possible additional average 21 on a second nearby target; and subsequent rounds average 63 damage, with a possible additional average 21 on a second nearby target.

That's all using no surges, hastes, magic items, etc... all of which would of course boost it further.

Extra info on this build is that Crossbow Expert also gives you a bonus action attack, that can be used any turn after the turn you're Hexing the target. That's 4 attacks at level 11, dealing 8d6+60 damage. Average Damage: 88

And with action surge the potential for a Nova 8 attacks dealing 16d6+120 damage for am average of 176

Both the At-Will Damage and Nova Damage are far better than average.
The balance here is the fact that:
A) Action Surge can only be used once (latter twice). So 88 is the Sustained Damage
B) The fact that it needs bolts. It's not a major factor, but it's still something that gets consumed.

So, in my opinion it falls under the same sustainable category as the Sorlock build. That is, sustainable and dependable, yet resource consumable.

[Zene]

Hmm, I've never seen the math on frenzy barbarian GWM builds.

Is it basically 3 attacks (with bonus action attack from frenzy), each for 2d6 (greatsword) + 5 (strength bonus) + 3 (Lvl 11 rage bonus damage) +10 (Great Weapon Master)? If so that averages (if all attacks hit) to 75 dpr while raging. Actually somewhere north of that due to brutal critical and GWF rerolls.

Lower +hit than the xbow master build, but consistent advantage from reckless attack would more than make up for it (assuming the archer build has no way of getting consistent advantage).

Looks like overall lower damage at 11 than the xbow fighter build, although it does have the benefit of not requiring a setup round (with hex), so probably pretty close if you're ending fights quickly.

As levels progress, the bonus rage damage would scale again at 16, and strength bonus would jump to +7 at 20, but there wouldn't be a way to get more attacks (other than having someone cast haste on you). At 20, the fighter gets yet another attack with his xbow. I don't feel like doing all that math, but my guess is that the extra attacks win out given how crazy strong that -5/+10 is on the feats. But maybe if they're both hasted at 20, the Barb's 4 stronger attacks might win out over the Fighter's 6 weaker ones?

Not super familiar with barbarians, so if I missed something in the calcs, let me know.

[CaptainSarathai]

For SharpShooter:
Just remember that we're ignoring 'To Hit' numbers here. The more damage you pile onto a hit, the less effective GWM/SS becomes. The difference may not be as much as it appears on paper. For example, if you'd normally need a 9 to Hit, popping GWM/SS and needing an 11 makes the attack 22% less effective (Dam x 2/11)

Frenzy Barb compared to Fighter:
Not gonna bother with math, but Frenzy Barb is
A) the least sustainable build here, since Frenzy leaves you with a level of exhaustion after, so basically, 1x Per Day.
B) Frenzy Barb out does a Fighter prior to level 11, while Frenzied. Reason being, the Barb always gets 2+Bonus attacks, while Fighter only get 2 plus whatever GWM triggers (not counting Action Surge, as it's not sustainable). Once the Fighter hits 11 though, he gets 3+GWM attacks, which edges him out over the Barb in average need of attacks.
I'd have to do the math to see if that bonus is enough to offset the Barb's +Rage damage and constant Advantage, which I honestly doubt that it is. But really, neither is particularly sustainable and at that point your bordering on NOVA damage potentials, which has already been done to death.

[Ravinsild]

For SharpShooter:
Just remember that we're ignoring 'To Hit' numbers here. The more damage you pile onto a hit, the less effective GWM/SS becomes. The difference may not be as much as it appears on paper. For example, if you'd normally need a 9 to Hit, popping GWM/SS and needing an 11 makes the attack 22% less effective (Dam x 2/11)

Frenzy Barb compared to Fighter:
Not gonna bother with math, but Frenzy Barb is
A) the least sustainable build here, since Frenzy leaves you with a level of exhaustion after, so basically, 1x Per Day.
B) Frenzy Barb out does a Fighter prior to level 11, while Frenzied. Reason being, the Barb always gets 2+Bonus attacks, while Fighter only get 2 plus whatever GWM triggers (not counting Action Surge, as it's not sustainable). Once the Fighter hits 11 though, he gets 3+GWM attacks, which edges him out over the Barb in average need of attacks.
I'd have to do the math to see if that bonus is enough to offset the Barb's +Rage damage and constant Advantage, which I honestly doubt that it is. But really, neither is particularly sustainable and at that point your bordering on NOVA damage potentials, which has already been done to death.

So with all that said I am seeing that a Totem Barbarian wouldn't even come close because they only get 2 attacks ever making the normal non-frenzy primal paths (including the UA ones and Battlerager) nowhere close.

So the only way to get a decent sustain on a Barbarian is a decent dip into Fighter but even then Barbarian just isn't the best at sustained damage is what it's looking like to me :(

[Socratov]

So with all that said I am seeing that a Totem Barbarian wouldn't even come close because they only get 2 attacks ever making the normal non-frenzy primal paths (including the UA ones and Battlerager) nowhere close.
ehm, no, they could use a polearm and be guaranteed that extra attack as a bonus action, but they are heavy too so GWM would give that extra attack on a crit or kill in stead

So the only way to get a decent sustain on a Barbarian is a decent dip into Fighter but even then Barbarian just isn't the best at sustained damage is what it's looking like to me :(
well, at high levels they get +7 to to-hit and dmg instead of +5 (before manuals of gainful exercises) So that, and the rage damage bonus makes up for a lot.

Before I put my money on the rogue:


I'd go dual wielding rapier fighter 1/Swashbuckler 8-10 Var. Human: Feats mobile & Dual Wield rest in dex, at lvl 9 you have 4d6 sneak attack, wielding 2 rapiers with Dual wield feat and the TWF fighting style that is each round for action and bonus action 2d8+2*4+4d6, at lvl 11 that becomes 2d8+2*5+5d6. All day, every day. And yes, moving counts as getting sneak atack for swashbucklers so that;s no problem at all and while you use your bonus action on a rapier you can still move away without problems. As for your dex, if you start with a 16 dex as Var. Human (which is possible), you get your var. for dual wield, 4th rogue ASI for mobile, and 8th rogue for dex to 18 (so at 9th lvl you deal 4 dex bonus dmage) and at 10 you get a bonus ASI (due to being a rogue) for dex to 20.

I would count the GWM Fighter as it gets a possible extra attack (on kill or crit) but the -5 penalty definitely still counts in this playing tier and would definitely affect your sustained damage (as actually hitting is important to actually deliver the damage).

This makes for (on average) 9+8+14=31 dmg every turn, all day every day, on average. At lvl 11 that makes 9+10+17.5=36.5 dmg every turn, at great accuracy.

Now let's assume AC 18 to beat at lvl 11:

the rogue will hit that on a 18 - (4+5) = 9 or higher, and he crits on a 20.

that means his expected expected damage is:

0.5*36.5+0.05*63=21.4

for a champion fighter at lvl 11 with GWM and a greatsword and STR 20:

the fighter will beat AC 18 on a 18 - (4+5-5) = 14 critting on a 19 and 20

(3+(1-0.93)) * (0.25*22+0.1*29) = 27.5

So the fighter edges out before the rogue.

So, while I'm busy anyways, let's see what a barbarian will do as follows with reckless attacks on, GWM, Rage, brütal critical and a greatsword will do:

like the fighter, the barbarian hits on a 14, but with advantage from Reckless attacks (which you want to do) the barbarian hits (non-crit) 48% of the time. he crits 9.75% of the time: this makes his expected damage:

(2+(1-0.954)) * (0.48*25+0.0975*35.5) = 33.8

The difference between the fighter and the barbarian is the extra attack, however, the rage damage and perpetual advantage makes up for a lot. Also, both classes need to crit once each turn to make the most of the GWM feat (bonus attack, not taking kills into account), the fighter gets 3 tries to get a 19 or 20, the barbarian gets 4 tries to get a 20. If that happens their bonus action will yield an extra attack. The advantage also helps out a lot to turn those misses due to the -5 component into hits for the barbarian.

As for an agonising blast warlock, eh will hit as follows:

3 * (0.5*10.5+0.05*16) = 18.5 (lower then the rogue!)

So far I'd say that the barbarian with GWM wins. Much to my surprise.

Other builds with non-consumable resources (as in things you can literally do all day, every day and doesn't consume resources in any direct manner) to attack that might be contenders are bloodhunters, and rangers.

[Ravinsild]

the barbarian gets 4 tries to get a 20.

Is this a Frenzy Barbarian or a Totemic Barbarian? If it is Totemic Warrior how does he gain 4 tries? Attack, Extra Attack, ?, ?

Edit: Is one of the bonus tries from the bludgeoning damage from the blunt side of the Polearm Master feat?

[Jarlhen]

Is this a Frenzy Barbarian or a Totemic Barbarian? If it is Totemic Warrior how does he gain 4 tries? Attack, Extra Attack, ?, ?

Edit: Is one of the bonus tries from the bludgeoning damage from the blunt side of the Polearm Master feat?

The barb always hits with advantage. 2 attacks=4 dice. The fighter has 3 attacks without advantage=3 dice.

[Ravinsild]

The barb always hits with advantage. 2 attacks=4 dice. The fighter has 3 attacks without advantage=3 dice.

Oh that's so dope. I guess I didn't think of dice as "tries". That makes me super hype! I love Barbarians so I'm glad to see just a regular Greatsword swinging totemic Barbarian brings a ton of damage to the field! :D

[N810]

well yea 2 attacks if raging but 3 when frenzying both ways with advantage,
so while frenzying you have 6 chances to roll a 20.

[Ravinsild]

well yea 2 attacks if raging but 3 when frenzying both ways with advantage,
so while frenzying you have 6 chances to roll a 20.

I've always read in every Barbarian guide that the cost for Frenzy is too high. Apparently Exhaustion is way too large a price for 1 extra attack, but I don't really know.

Is the Path of the Berserker /really/ that bad?

[Zene]

Now let's assume AC 18 to beat at lvl 11

I love that you're taking AC into account. I'm never sure what AC to expect (or use as an average) at what level, so I know my damage calcs are off as a result.

Is there a rule of thumb folks use for what AC to expect at what levels?

(I'm particularly interested in this because I'm trying to figure out how much better a champ fighter would be at 15+ due to the improved criticals, over the other fighter archetypes. Trying to figure out if it's worth losing the spells/maneuvers.)

[N810]

I've always read in every Barbarian guide that the cost for Frenzy is too high. Apparently Exhaustion is way too large a price for 1 extra attack, but I don't really know.

Is the Path of the Berserker /really/ that bad?

It's what I play, and it's not all that bad...
Just use your regular rages for most of the fights and
save your frenzy rage for the big boss fight at the end of the adventuring day.
You my also notice that after 1 level of exhaustion,
raging as normal actually negates a lot of the penalties.

[Zene]

Is there a rule of thumb folks use for what AC to expect at what levels?


Ah nvm just found it - table with AC by CR, DMG p274

[Socratov]

Is this a Frenzy Barbarian or a Totemic Barbarian? If it is Totemic Warrior how does he gain 4 tries? Attack, Extra Attack, ?, ?

this is a totem barbarian, and he gets 4 tries to get a 20 because he uses reckless attack which gives him advantage on all attacks. That means 2 attacks, each using 4 dice to get a 20. The probability of doing so is equal of 1-p4 where p is the chance on no 20. That is how powerful

[JakOfAllTirades]

I'd suggest a Variant Human Ghostslayer type Blood Hunter, standard array 16/12/14/8/14/8.

Bonus Feat: Polearm Master.
4th level Feat: Great Weapon Master
8th level Feat: Magic Initiate/Warlock. (For Hex, plus two cantrips that don't rely on CHA, obviously)

At 11th level, Rite of the Dawn adds 1d8+WIS damage to all attacks. He can also keep HEX up for 8 hours. GWM adds +10 damage. PAM gives him an off-hand attack with a base 1d4 damage in addition to 2 attacks with a base 1d10 damage. So adding it all up:

Two attacks: 1d10 + STR + Rite of the Dawn + HEX + GWM = 57

Off-hand attack: 1d4 + STR + Rite of the Dawn + HEX + GWM = 25.5

Total damage 82.5 DPR

If all of his attacks hit.

And if he doesn't kill himself putting Rite of the Dawn on both ends of his weapon....

[Ravinsild]

I'd suggest a Variant Human Ghostslayer type Blood Hunter, standard array 16/12/14/8/14/8.

Bonus Feat: Polearm Master.
4th level Feat: Great Weapon Master
8th level Feat: Magic Initiate/Warlock. (For Hex, plus two cantrips that don't rely on CHA, obviously)

At 11th level, Rite of the Dawn adds 1d8+WIS damage to all attacks. He can also keep HEX up for 8 hours. GWM adds +10 damage. PAM gives him an off-hand attack with a base 1d4 damage in addition to 2 attacks with a base 1d10 damage. So adding it all up:

Two attacks: 1d10 + STR + Rite of the Dawn + HEX + GWM = 57

Off-hand attack: 1d4 + STR + Rite of the Dawn + HEX + GWM = 25.5

Total damage 82.5 DPR

If all of his attacks hit.

And if he doesn't kill himself putting Rite of the Dawn on both ends of his weapon....

How resource intensive is that? It at least 1 spell slot and a concentration which means no bless, haste or anything else like that. What's Rite of Dawn? Is that a free thing like Reckless Attack or is it a use like Action Surge sort of thing?

Just curious for how.."sustainable" this is as far as how much investment it takes to get to this point.

[JakOfAllTirades]

How resource intensive is that? It at least 1 spell slot and a concentration which means no bless, haste or anything else like that. What's Rite of Dawn? Is that a free thing like Reckless Attack or is it a use like Action Surge sort of thing?

Just curious for how.."sustainable" this is as far as how much investment it takes to get to this point.


Hex only lasts for an hour; not as long as I thought so I'll scratch that in favor of a +2 STR ASI. Rite of the Dawn lasts up to 8 hrs so I consider it sustainable. Nerf it to 75 DPR with this correction.

[MaxWilson]

Do summons, raised undead and other minions count as sustained?

This exactly. An 11th level Necromancer starting from scratch with nothing but a pile of skeletons and heavy crossbows can, nine minutes later, have on tap 437 points of damage per turn (times hit percentage), with 912 HP of meatshield to go with it. If he has his skeletals dual-wield shortswords instead he's got 646 points of damage per turn (times hit percentage), although shortsword-equipped melee troops are a lot harder to deploy effectively than longbow troops are.

Not to mention any Planar Bound elementals he's got left over from the previous few days.

[Jarlhen]

I think the problem with necromancy is that it's great in theory but almost never translates well into the game. There are very few DMs who'd be happy with you running around with 60 skeletons. Just getting 60 skeletons into a dungeon, geez. So for the purpose of this discussion the necromancy style of minions can be excluded. Other forms I don't really know much about (other than BM ranger, and regular temporary summoning spells).

ETA: Rite of Dawn is a blood hunter thing. It gives you an extra damage die (based on level, like monk martial arts) on any weapon. But it requires a sacrifice of your level in HP. So as long as your rite is active your (in this case) HP is lowered by 11. This can also be applied to the other end of the weapon. So for 1d8+WISx2 damage your HP is 22 lower as long as the rite is active. It'S front-loaded.

[Citan]

I think the problem with necromancy is that it's great in theory but almost never translates well into the game. There are very few DMs who'd be happy with you running around with 60 skeletons. Just getting 60 skeletons into a dungeon, geez. So for the purpose of this discussion the necromancy style of minions can be excluded. Other forms I don't really know much about (other than BM ranger, and regular temporary summoning spells).

ETA: Rite of Dawn is a blood hunter thing. It gives you an extra damage die (based on level, like monk martial arts) on any weapon. But it requires a sacrifice of your level in HP. So as long as your rite is active your (in this case) HP is lowered by 11. This can also be applied to the other end of the weapon. So for 1d8+WISx2 damage your HP is 22 lower as long as the rite is active. It'S front-loaded.
Plussed. Necromancy is great when it works, but...
In any given dungeon, most of the time, you won't have more than 3-4 skeletons side-by-side. Others will have disadvantage on their shots, and let's not speak about how it becomes bothersome for actual players to move around, unless they have big jump/wall run/fly... XD

Furthermore, a DM may have many things at his disposal to get rid of those usually.
Basic skeleton has ~15HP IIRC, with Wizard's bump it would be 25 at the level we speak, max 35.
Decent DEX and CON saves, low AC, normal movement. Between AOE damaging spells, view blocking spells, disabling spells and such... Sure it will cost several resources to disable the threat, but I don't think it would be so hard usually.

Only for large-scale encounters with big space to spread around would this become REALLY powerful (like party confronting enemy army in a plain) Or if however you can you manage to get the drop on your enemy (although I don't know how you could be sneaky with a bunch of skeletons creaking, unless you create them after you got to the ambush point XD). ;)

[JakOfAllTirades]

ETA: Rite of Dawn is a blood hunter thing. It gives you an extra damage die (based on level, like monk martial arts) on any weapon. But it requires a sacrifice of your level in HP. So as long as your rite is active your (in this case) HP is lowered by 11. This can also be applied to the other end of the weapon. So for 1d8+WISx2 damage your HP is 22 lower as long as the rite is active. It'S front-loaded.

One other thing: this HP cost also reduces your Max HP for the duration of the Blood Rite, so those 22 HP effectively can't be healed until you stop using the Blood Rite. Blood Hunters are pretty much the ultimate "glass cannons" so if you decide to activate your Blood Rite twice you'd better have a very good reason!

I'm currently playing a TWF Blood Hunter and loving it; not as much DPR as the above build, but he's a DEX build w/a better AC which makes him a more playable character IMHO.