[Path of war] Lets talk about Encouraging Roar

[Knight Magenta]

Our group has started using path of War in our two current campaigns; so far one is level 6 (started at 1) and the other just started at level 2. It feels like the manuver, Encouraging Roar, is stronger then expected and I want to see what the playground thinks.

Link (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/golden-lion-maneuvers#TOC-Encouraging-Roar)
Encouraging Roar

Discipline: Golden Lion (Boost); Level: 1
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: 30-ft.
Target: Allies
Duration: One round

DESCRIPTION

The disciple lets out shouts of encouragement to bolster his allies in battle. All allies within 30-ft. of the Golden Lion disciple gain a +2 morale bonus to attack and damage rolls for one round.


Its hard to math roar out, since I am not sure what the benchmark is, so here are some of my gut feelings and experiences.

Encouraging roar is a pretty strong effect. At first glance, it looks similar to the bard's inspire courage. You can expect to use it every-other round if you have warlord or harbringer recovery so it averages out to +1/+1. It seems mean that the bard's shtick is taken by a single maneuver.

Roar also scales really well with multiple attacks. If your party includes animal comapanions or summons eagles it adds 6 damage over 3 attacks, allowing you to get value almost 6 times from it in a mixed PoW/core party.

As a level 1 maneuver, Encouraging Roar is available from the Combat Training (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/pow-e-traits/combat-training-combat) trait in PoW:E which allows a character who otherwise has few swift actions to pick it up. My Inquisitor Monster Tactician has taken it in the level 2 campaign and it struck me that it would be a good use of my actions to summon a monster and then just recover and use encouraging roar every turn.

Finally, looking at some other maneuvers, roar feels better or on par with other higher level maneuvers. Consider Bronze Knuckle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/broken-blade-maneuvers#TOC-Bronze-Knuckle), Regal Blade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/scarlet-throne-maneuvers#TOC-Regal-Blade) or Flash kick (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/thrashing-dragon-maneuvers#TOC-Flash-Kick).

Bronze knuckle adds ~7 damage and at that level enemies might have 5 DR, so lets call it +12 damage per attack. +1 to hit is worth about +2 damage, so Roar adds about 6 damage. However roar affects your whole party and it beats out bronze knuckle if you have at least 2 allies that want to attack with weapons.

Regal blade averages +2/+4.5, but it only affects one attack and the damage is not multiplied on criticals or by Rising Zenith Strike. I think its worse then encouraging roar most of the time.

Flash kick is a little tricky to evaluate. Lets say you are a front-liner that has 18 strength and are getting +1d6 damage from your stance. Flash kick adds an attack for 1d3+4+3d6 damage for an average of 16.5. Assuming a 60% chance to hit that gives you 9.9 bonus damage from the maneuver. This still loses out to roar just like bronze knuckle.

---

I don't really want to nerf encouraging roar because +2/+2 feels way better then +1/+1; but I think it is more in line with level 2 maneuvers then with level 1. Golden lion might want another level 1 maneuver to compensate then, but I am not sure what that would look like.

There is an argument to be made that moral bonuses are less valuable but I don't think that there are enough to drown the roar out. Especially in the level 1-3 range.

Discuss.

[exelsisxax]

Encouraging roar is by no means overpowered. It's not even a good level 1 maneuver. In comparison, bardic inspire courage also improves saves against fear and compulsions, can last quite a bit longer, and has better range. It's not a +2 at level 1, but with more levels it gets far better in addition to greater versatility and can be used every single round of an encounter for most campaigns. Just in golden lion, tactical strike, pride movement, hunting party, and demoralizing roar are all better than encouraging roar for most parties in most encounters.

[Rynjin]

It's a nerfed Heroism that lasts for one round, not overpowered in the slightest. It's good at 1st level but no Warlord is going to be doing a Gambit every turn just to keep it up, it's not worth the effort. It scales incredibly poorly and will probably be the first maneuver traded out at 4th level. As already said, Inspire Courage outperforms it in several ways even at 1st level, and by 5th level outperforms it in EVERY way (superior bonuses, range, and duration).

It does not stack with many early level buffs (Heroism again, Good Hope, etc.) in addition to all of the above.

Regardless, even if it did "steal the Bard's schtick" (which it doesn't in ANY way)...that's not an issue. The Warlord is meant to be a frontlines buffing class. It is DESIGNED to be a non-magical Bard class that trades in the massive skill and spell utility Bards get for great combat and tactical abilities. It no more obsoletes the Bard than the Bloodrager obsoletes the Magus or Sorcerer.

[Knight Magenta]

It's a nerfed Heroism that lasts for one round, not overpowered in the slightest. It's good at 1st level but no Warlord is going to be doing a Gambit every turn just to keep it up, it's not worth the effort. It scales incredibly poorly and will probably be the first maneuver traded out at 4th level. As already said, Inspire Courage outperforms it in several ways even at 1st level, and by 5th level outperforms it in EVERY way (superior bonuses, range, and duration).

It does not stack with many early level buffs (Heroism again, Good Hope, etc.) in addition to all of the above.

Regardless, even if it did "steal the Bard's schtick" (which it doesn't in ANY way)...that's not an issue. The Warlord is meant to be a frontlines buffing class. It is DESIGNED to be a non-magical Bard class that trades in the massive skill and spell utility Bards get for great combat and tactical abilities. It no more obsoletes the Bard than the Bloodrager obsoletes the Magus or Sorcerer.


I'm talking about low levels here, the 1-5 range. Even then, Heroism only affects attack, not damage and costs the bard one of his 2-3 level 2 spells slots. It also only affects a single creature. I would damned well hope it is better then a level 1 maneuver that has a 30ft radius.

Good hope only lasts 1 minute per level and is a level 3 bard spell, so its not even in the level range I am talking about.

I am comparing roar to similar level combat buffs. If a combat lasts 2-3 rounds then roar provides an average of 2/3rds of the bard's song in effectiveness and does not take an action to activate. That's comparable.

The warlord may be intended to be the martial buffer, but as a level 1 maneuver roar is available as a trait. Heck, the bard could take it. The whole party could take it and have +2/+2 for the first 4 rounds in every combat...

I do not think roar is the first maneuver to be traded. In our level 6 game, our warlord still uses encouraging roar. I think it may be the only level 1 maneuver he readies and a component of his dual boost.


Encouraging roar is by no means overpowered. It's not even a good level 1 maneuver. In comparison, bardic inspire courage also improves saves against fear and compulsions, can last quite a bit longer, and has better range. It's not a +2 at level 1, but with more levels it gets far better in addition to greater versatility and can be used every single round of an encounter for most campaigns. Just in golden lion, tactical strike, pride movement, hunting party, and demoralizing roar are all better than encouraging roar for most parties in most encounters.

Bardic music does edge roar out in total. For one its not a moral bonus and it scales better, but my point is that at level 1 the bonus to fear is less relevant and raw numbers are really strong.

I'm not sure that, say pride movement, is usually better. I'd argue the opposite. Consider a pretty generic POW + tier 3 party: Warlord, Stalker, melee Hunter and an archer Bard.

The warlord can choose between encouraging roar or pride movement. The warlord has Flurry strike as one of his damage maneuvers and the stalker uses Crimson Throne. Lets compare.
Pride movement lets him move the hunter's cat into full attack range, functionally giving it pounce. That's +2 attacks. Pride movement has minimal effect on the PoW classes since they use standard actions to fight. The hunter has no full attack and the bard has a bow. Compare to roar, you have: 2 attacks from flurry strike, three cat attacks, and rapid shot and one attack from the stalker. You gain roar on 8 attacks that turn. I think +16 damage and a to hit bonus is really good.

On the other hand, moving roar to level 2 would put it at the point where the bard's perform rounds per day reach "enough" and where you can't trait into it.

[exelsisxax]

I'm assuming melee hunter, because encouraging roar has crap range.

Warlord uses pride movement on hunter animal, then moves to a flank position. Warlord uses tactical strike, hunter moves into flank position. Any hunter worth his salt has outflank. There's now a superior flank happening that provokes AoO from crits. If the target somehow survives those attacks, and the stalker, and the bard, warlord nopes the enemy attack with demoralizing roar. Warlord proceeds to use hunting party, giving the attack to the stalker that should be flanking by now. Bard, stalker, and superior flank hunter and companion proceed to demolish target with full attacks and/or maneuvers.

Completely nullifying and enemy turn alone is better than a theoretical +16 damage. When you factor in all the positioning that you miss out on it's no contest. And that's with a hunter, not even ambush hunter - which ends up looking more like a corpse ping-pong party.

[Knight Magenta]

I'm assuming melee hunter, because encouraging roar has crap range.

Warlord uses pride movement on hunter animal, then moves to a flank position. Warlord uses tactical strike, hunter moves into flank position. Any hunter worth his salt has outflank. There's now a superior flank happening that provokes AoO from crits. If the target somehow survives those attacks, and the stalker, and the bard, warlord nopes the enemy attack with demoralizing roar. Warlord proceeds to use hunting party, giving the attack to the stalker that should be flanking by now. Bard, stalker, and superior flank hunter and companion proceed to demolish target with full attacks and/or maneuvers.

Completely nullifying and enemy turn alone is better than a theoretical +16 damage. When you factor in all the positioning that you miss out on it's no contest. And that's with a hunter, not even ambush hunter - which ends up looking more like a corpse ping-pong party.

Did you just compare using 2 boosts and a strike against encouraging roar? I mean... what?

Like I said, the only thing pride movement gets you in your example is 2 extra attacks by the AC. Without it the AC just spends a move action to move into flanking position. Everything else works with roar, except you apply your bonuses to better targets then the AC.

The ambush hunter is a ranger archetype and does not have a companion until level 4. So that point is moot.

[exelsisxax]

Did you just compare using 2 boosts and a strike against encouraging roar? I mean... what?

Like I said, the only thing pride movement gets you in your example is 2 extra attacks by the AC. Without it the AC just spends a move action to move into flanking position. Everything else works with roar, except you apply your bonuses to better targets then the AC.

The ambush hunter is a ranger archetype and does not have a companion until level 4. So that point is moot.

The hunter is a class. When you say hunter, that's what you convey.

Encouraging roar got you, in theory, 16 damage for one turn. Pride movement created a move action. That's far better. movement is extremely powerful, and small attack and damage bonuses are not.

[Knight Magenta]

The hunter is a class. When you say hunter, that's what you convey.


Ya, I meant hunter, as in the AC-focused hybrid class. You brought up the ambush hunter...

Edit:
I guess what I want to say is that: Yes mobility and utility is strong. Being able to attack is better then not, and so on. But sometimes you just need to pile on the DPR, and in those situations, Encouraging Roar is much stronger then the alternatives.

[exelsisxax]

Ya, I meant hunter, as in the AC-focused hybrid class. You brought up the ambush hunter...

Edit:
I guess what I want to say is that: Yes mobility and utility is strong. Being able to attack is better then not, and so on. But sometimes you just need to pile on the DPR, and in those situations, Encouraging Roar is much stronger then the alternatives.

You said hunter, so I did hunter. Then I also did ambush hunter, because you said "path of war party" and then didn't make one.

In situations where DPR is the goal, encouraging roar is still bad. If you only care about damage, it's because dying isn't an issue, so you can ignore damage increases. They don't matter. If you want to maximize DPR because you think it's your only hope, encouraging roar is bad because DPR is a poor strategy. Utility is strictly superior to damage for resolving virtually any issue. If you wanted to get more damage in an effective way, hunting pack is superior. It creates new attacks, a better alternative than any reasonable quantity of damage increase.

[Ualaa]

Path of War isn't really balanced against existing non-PoW martial classes.
A PoW character is generally a lot stronger than a non-PoW character, for the martial role.

They're still a lot weaker than an equally optimized caster (unless that optimization level is almost zero).
But they're closer to the caster than a non-PoW guy is.



The one that I initially didn't like so much of PoW was a one level dip into Warlord, for any class that has a lot of CHA (16+) in their build.
At lower levels, without another use for a Swift action, the Warlord dipper declares a Gambit (my player took Victory Gambit) which burns their Swift action.
They then get their Charisma modifier to the attack roll.
If they succeed, there is a bonus as the reward.
If they fail, they take a -2 penalty to d20 rolls for a round.
With at least a 16 CHA, even with a fail on the Victory Gambit (I'm attempting to kill my target), it is a net gain to the attack roll.
The dip gets them a stance and a couple of maneuvers to cycle through.

An actual Warlord, will have a better use for a Swift action, or choose to save it for their Immediate with one of their counters.
And at higher levels, most classes will have a use for the Swift action too.
But in a lower level game, that one level dip looks pretty nice.

[Powerdork]

But who's actually taking a one-level dip in warlord, and how are they justifying "I can do all this now"?

[Tuvarkz]

The Warlord can already grant similarly (or more) powerful morale bonuses through his gambits; and given their typing, there's plenty of effects with which Encouraging Roar doesn't stack. But yes, it is quite powerful for levels 1-2, although its degree of effectiveness varies with the number of PCs and allies that spend their turns attacking (assuming they aren't already hitting on a 2).

[Knight Magenta]

But who's actually taking a one-level dip in warlord,

Paladins


and how are they justifying "I can do all this now"?

Roleplaying.

:biggrin:

Seriously though, the dip-ability of PoW classes is something that is really hard to fix; and its really only a problem because the core classes have so few uses for their swift actions. Though i guess paladins are a bad example for warlord dips because they do want to use their swifts for lay-on-hands.

[Powerdork]

Paladins



Roleplaying.

:biggrin:

Seriously though, the dip-ability of PoW classes is something that is really hard to fix; and its really only a problem because the core classes have so few uses for their swift actions. Though i guess paladins are a bad example for warlord dips because they do want to use their swifts for lay-on-hands.

More to the point, which paladins? Can you name some examples you've seen of this actually being used?

[exelsisxax]

More to the point, which paladins? Can you name some examples you've seen of this actually being used?

POW paladin archetype dips warlord or warder or is insane. If you don't use or gave up spells, there is no reason not to do so.

The 1-level dips that POW incentivizes can be a real problem. I mean, not to unbalance the game or break anything. You'll never be a wizard no matter how optimized your dips. But when POW martials are already better than noncaster martials (they're as strong as 4 and 6 casters like DSP intended), a dip of 1 or 2 levels can enable a PC to almost entirely invalidate the presence of any tier 4 or 5 class. But it's not a POW problem. It's a "paizo made those classes suck" problem. Using POW archetypes or alternatives is the fix, not the issue.

[Gnaeus]

More to the point, which paladins? Can you name some examples you've seen of this actually being used?

My paladin has a warlord 2 dip. It's fantastic. Not as good as straight warlord perhaps, but very synergistic with other parts of the build. I hope to get warlord 3 somewhere around level 11. I encourage it for any paladin with a strong cha focus, which should be most of them. It's true I don't use encouraging roar much anymore

[Gnaeus]

Seriously though, the dip-ability of PoW classes is something that is really hard to fix; and its really only a problem because the core classes have so few uses for their swift actions. Though i guess paladins are a bad example for warlord dips because they do want to use their swifts for lay-on-hands.

Why would you fix it?

Why is it a problem?

Character customization through dips is a major selling point for D20 systems. It's always been a design feature for ToB and now for PoW (and incarna, Daevic dips are strong for paladins also). In 3.5, the only way to build a half decent martial was with half a dozen dips. PF makes it less mandatory, but that doesn't mean every good paladin should be a Pal20

[ghanjrho]

My paladin has a warlord 2 dip. It's fantastic. Not as good as straight warlord perhaps, but very synergistic with other parts of the build. I hope to get warlord 3 somewhere around level 11. I encourage it for any paladin with a strong cha focus, which should be most of them. It's true I don't use encouraging roar much anymore

Bear in mind that Divine Grace and Force of Personality do NOT stack, by both the Paizo ability bonus stacking rules and a specific call out in the FoP description. Now, by the rules you can stack Unbreakable Gambit, Rallying Presence and DG/FoP on a Will Save vs. fear or compulsion, as they're all different bonus types.

[Vortenger]

Just gotta make the obligatory point-out to the community minded trait for making all the Golden Lion morale boosters more viable. An Encouraging Roar that lasts three rounds is far more compelling than lasting only one.

[exelsisxax]

Just gotta make the obligatory point-out to the community minded trait for making all the Golden Lion morale boosters more viable. An Encouraging Roar that lasts three rounds is far more compelling than lasting only one.

THAT is actually pretty strong. Combine encouraging roar and defending the pride for 3 round attack, damage, and AC bonuses whenever you didn't burn an immediate last round. you've got plenty of time to recover them, so it's basically permanent.

[Knight Magenta]

A more concrete example: You are an inquisitor monster tactician with the trait that gives you a maneuver. You've just summoned 1d3+1 eagles around a poor sap. Would you rather use a swift action to:
a) Move an ally
b) Give all your eagles +2 to hit and damage on all three of their attacks

[exelsisxax]

A more concrete example: You are an inquisitor monster tactician with the trait that gives you a maneuver. You've just summoned 1d3+1 eagles around a poor sap. Would you rather use a swift action to:
a) Move an ally
b) Give all your eagles +2 to hit and damage on all three of their attacks

C: your build sucks, because that archetype can't go warpath follower, so there's no point in taking that trait. Summon a non-crap creature and hopefully have an ally cast magic fang on it.

[Elricaltovilla]

C: your build sucks, because that archetype can't go warpath follower, so there's no point in taking that trait. Summon a non-crap creature and hopefully have an ally cast magic fang on it.

Encouraging Roar can be picked up via trait. Even then, it's only a moderate damage increase at best.

Encouraging Roar is an excellent maneuver to use if you have nothing else to spend your swift action on. Which is exactly its intended use. It's not always the best option, but it almost always a viable option.

[Knight Magenta]

Encouraging Roar can be picked up via trait. Even then, it's only a moderate damage increase at best.

Encouraging Roar is an excellent maneuver to use if you have nothing else to spend your swift action on. Which is exactly its intended use. It's not always the best option, but it almost always a viable option.

This is what I am trying to get at. I feel that Encouraging Roar compares favorably with a number of level 2 maneuvers who's purpose is also dealing damage. Compare Regal Blade from Crimson Throne. That affects only 1 attack and for that cost you only get an extra +2.5 damage.

Edit: I also feel that the roar's AOE nature is very important. Especially in an all martial party that adding path of war has encouraged in our group.

[Elricaltovilla]

This is what I am trying to get at. I feel that Encouraging Roar compares favorably with a number of level 2 maneuvers who's purpose is also dealing damage. Compare Regal Blade from Crimson Throne. That affects only 1 attack and for that cost you only get an extra +2.5 damage.

Edit: I also feel that the roar's AOE nature is very important. Especially in an all martial party that adding path of war has encouraged in our group.

It's a blue rating maneuver, if you're familiar with my (and others') rating system. It's in no way broken, just consistently nice and roughly comparable to Inspire Courage. Which is exactly what it should be given that bards and Warlords have similar party roles.

EDIT: Regal blade is +2 to attack rolls and +1d8 damage, which averages out to 4.5 not 2.5. It is nearly twice as effective as you claim it to be, and serves a different purpose to boot.

[Knight Magenta]

It's a blue rating maneuver, if you're familiar with my (and others') rating system. It's in no way broken, just consistently nice and roughly comparable to Inspire Courage. Which is exactly what it should be given that bards and Warlords have similar party roles.


I think its mostly fine for the warlord. I guess it feels awkward when you can get it as a trait.



EDIT: Regal blade is +2 to attack rolls and +1d8 damage, which averages out to 4.5 not 2.5. It is nearly twice as effective as you claim it to be, and serves a different purpose to boot.

I meant regal blade adds 2.5 damage over encouraging roar and only affects one attack. If you value the AOE nature of roar at all, then it wins out over the extra 2.5 damage, even if you only have 1 attack.