[The Dresden Files] Is Micheal actually a horrible influence on Dresden?

[digiman619]

Micheal is probably Harry's best friend, but I sometimes think that he does more harm than good for Dresden's well-being. I mean, the man's an almost literal saint who has the kind of life Dresden always wanted (at least pre-spinal injury); a loving wife, children, respected by his peers, still fighting the good fight... as opposed to Harry, who lived in a rundown ground floor apartment, mostly alone, treated with distrust and/or fear by most of the magical community. Micheal is the ideal that Harry tries to live up to, but the man is an almost literal saint. Every time Harry fails or has to do anything "in shades of grey", he just sees Micheal as this uncatchable paragon and judges himself wanting.

Thoughts?

[The Glyphstone]

But can you imagine where Dresden would be without Michael's influence, or at least his ideal? Without his friend - a friend who has stood by him without the slightest hesitation through the worst he's been through, including when he thought Harry had taken up a Denarian coin, I'd figure Harry would have gone off the deep end into evil a long time ago. He's the paragon that Harry can never live up to, but it's the part of Harry that wants to do that which keeps him from going full Darth Dresden.

[Legato Endless]

A little guilt driven by unreasonable comparisons is a small price compared Harry spiraling into ever further rationalizations. Who else is going to stopgap that tide?

[Lord Raziere]

Have you read like, the latest two books? because it was either Cold Days or Skin Game where:

Michael himself points out that Harry takes on too much of the burden on himself and holds himself to very high standards- basically Harry is very prideful in a self-sacrificial way and tries to save everyone himself without help, take burdens and such and so on.

So Michael is fully aware of how Harry is trying to hold himself to an unreachable standard. and tries to discourage him from that. Also its implied that there are some things the angels favor in Dresden that they don't in Michael:
-in a short story, Harry makes three seemingly unimportant actions, one even seemingly destructive and unnecessary that actually end up causing a lot of good without him realizing it that Uriel applauds him for.
-He was the one who held two Holy Swords in his possession until they were needed, so they trust him enough to keep two-thirds of some of the greatest holy swords in existence safe
-Harry outright says that Uriel is the angelic black ops in Dresdenverse- implying that there are aspects of Black-Staff-ness to Uriel that allow him to take actions that he normally wouldn't, and thus there might b some angels who approve of what he does even if he isn't a straightforward hero like Michael
-Sanya has different values from Michael, and Butters who is a Knight of the Cross now, aren't exactly what you expect to be holy paladins fighting against evil
-Michael is perfectly ok with Harry grabbing a coin to save his son from being possessed by a demon, and in fact doesn't question a LOT of what Harry does despite all its moral greyness. He still remains Harry's friend even after he became the Winter Knight, pretty much everyone angelic/christian you'd think would be calling out Harry at every turn for doing something morally grey just seems accepting of what he has done and being supportive when he expresses doubts and weaknesses over it.

In short, its implied that the standards of the angelic faction in Dresdenverse are more flexible/accepting than say a DnD alignment system or something. Dresden is more of a terrible influence on himself for putting himself through all this, while Michael was technically retired at least for a while, so Harry wouldn't be following his example in such a case.

[Traab]

Have you read like, the latest two books? because it was either Cold Days or Skin Game where:

Michael himself points out that Harry takes on too much of the burden on himself and holds himself to very high standards- basically Harry is very prideful in a self-sacrificial way and tries to save everyone himself without help, take burdens and such and so on.

So Michael is fully aware of how Harry is trying to hold himself to an unreachable standard. and tries to discourage him from that. Also its implied that there are some things the angels favor in Dresden that they don't in Michael:
-in a short story, Harry makes three seemingly unimportant actions, one even seemingly destructive and unnecessary that actually end up causing a lot of good without him realizing it that Uriel applauds him for.
-He was the one who held two Holy Swords in his possession until they were needed, so they trust him enough to keep two-thirds of some of the greatest holy swords in existence safe
-Harry outright says that Uriel is the angelic black ops in Dresdenverse- implying that there are aspects of Black-Staff-ness to Uriel that allow him to take actions that he normally wouldn't, and thus there might b some angels who approve of what he does even if he isn't a straightforward hero like Michael
-Sanya has different values from Michael, and Butters who is a Knight of the Cross now, aren't exactly what you expect to be holy paladins fighting against evil
-Michael is perfectly ok with Harry grabbing a coin to save his son from being possessed by a demon, and in fact doesn't question a LOT of what Harry does despite all its moral greyness. He still remains Harry's friend even after he became the Winter Knight, pretty much everyone angelic/christian you'd think would be calling out Harry at every turn for doing something morally grey just seems accepting of what he has done and being supportive when he expresses doubts and weaknesses over it.

In short, its implied that the standards of the angelic faction in Dresdenverse are more flexible/accepting than say a DnD alignment system or something. Dresden is more of a terrible influence on himself for putting himself through all this, while Michael was technically retired at least for a while, so Harry wouldn't be following his example in such a case.


I agree with all of this, in addition, The thing about dresden is, he isnt a saint, that implies a certain holiness and attribution to religion. Instead he is something just as rare. He is a good man who always tries to do what he thinks is right. He doesnt do it in the name of god, he doesnt do it because some greater power tells him to, he does the right thing because he feels that he has to. The angels trust him as you mentioned, with some of their holiest artifacts, because they know, even if he does screw up, he always tries his hardest to make it right again. We see that when he causes one of the swords to lose its power when he breaks an oath to his godmother I believe. He gets together with michael, hats up, and heads into a vampire den to get it back however he has to. He was facing the red court, representatives of the summer and winter fae, the other courts, a freaking dragon, etc etc etc. He could have given up, he could have accepted that he cost the knights of the cross one of their swords, but he didnt.

Of course, those are just the big moments, think about how he handled michaels daughter after she became his apprentice. She walks up to him, strips down and offers herself to him however he likes. He doesnt even hesitate to douse her with cold water, tell her to get dressed, and that this isnt going to happen. Legal age or not, there is no way he would do that with his best friends daughter, no matter how attractive she is. (And yes, at least partly because he watched her grow up) Though I can see that changing in future novels, considering how various events have occurred.

[Lord Raziere]

I agree with all of this, in addition, The thing about dresden is, he isnt a saint, that implies a certain holiness and attribution to religion. Instead he is something just as rare. He is a good man who always tries to do what he thinks is right. He doesnt do it in the name of god, he doesnt do it because some greater power tells him to, he does the right thing because he feels that he has to. The angels trust him as you mentioned, with some of their holiest artifacts, because they know, even if he does screw up, he always tries his hardest to make it right again. We see that when he causes one of the swords to lose its power when he breaks an oath to his godmother I believe. He gets together with michael, hats up, and heads into a vampire den to get it back however he has to. He was facing the red court, representatives of the summer and winter fae, the other courts, a freaking dragon, etc etc etc. He could have given up, he could have accepted that he cost the knights of the cross one of their swords, but he didnt.

Of course, those are just the big moments, think about how he handled michaels daughter after she became his apprentice. She walks up to him, strips down and offers herself to him however he likes. He doesnt even hesitate to douse her with cold water, tell her to get dressed, and that this isnt going to happen. Legal age or not, there is no way he would do that with his best friends daughter, no matter how attractive she is. (And yes, at least partly because he watched her grow up) Though I can see that changing in future novels, considering how various events have occurred.

Um yeah about Dresden getting with intimate with Molly....

Yeah, if you haven't read this short story.....well....Molly tries to have sex with Carlos at the end, y'know that other White Council Warden she was attracted to? Yeah turns out the Winter Maiden Mantle has to protect itself from its host getting pregnant since to become pregnant is to become a mother and stop being a maiden, so when she tries to have sex, the Mantle basically takes her over, almost kills Carlos, and Molly basically can't have sex with anyone ever again because if she tries the Mantle will mess them up real bad.

So yeah. Harry is never getting any from Molly. At least as long as the Winter Maiden Mantle is on her which is probably forever. So any relationship they develop will have to be completely chaste and purely for love, or more probably, just never going to happen.

[digiman619]

Have you read like, the latest two books? because it was either Cold Days or Skin Game where:

Michael himself points out that Harry takes on too much of the burden on himself and holds himself to very high standards- basically Harry is very prideful in a self-sacrificial way and tries to save everyone himself without help, take burdens and such and so on.

So Michael is fully aware of how Harry is trying to hold himself to an unreachable standard. and tries to discourage him from that. Also its implied that there are some things the angels favor in Dresden that they don't in Michael:
-in a short story, Harry makes three seemingly unimportant actions, one even seemingly destructive and unnecessary that actually end up causing a lot of good without him realizing it that Uriel applauds him for.
-He was the one who held two Holy Swords in his possession until they were needed, so they trust him enough to keep two-thirds of some of the greatest holy swords in existence safe
-Harry outright says that Uriel is the angelic black ops in Dresdenverse- implying that there are aspects of Black-Staff-ness to Uriel that allow him to take actions that he normally wouldn't, and thus there might b some angels who approve of what he does even if he isn't a straightforward hero like Michael
-Sanya has different values from Michael, and Butters who is a Knight of the Cross now, aren't exactly what you expect to be holy paladins fighting against evil
-Michael is perfectly ok with Harry grabbing a coin to save his son from being possessed by a demon, and in fact doesn't question a LOT of what Harry does despite all its moral greyness. He still remains Harry's friend even after he became the Winter Knight, pretty much everyone angelic/christian you'd think would be calling out Harry at every turn for doing something morally grey just seems accepting of what he has done and being supportive when he expresses doubts and weaknesses over it.

In short, its implied that the standards of the angelic faction in Dresdenverse are more flexible/accepting than say a DnD alignment system or something. Dresden is more of a terrible influence on himself for putting himself through all this, while Michael was technically retired at least for a while, so Harry wouldn't be following his example in such a case.



I agree with all of this, in addition, The thing about dresden is, he isnt a saint, that implies a certain holiness and attribution to religion. Instead he is something just as rare. He is a good man who always tries to do what he thinks is right. He doesnt do it in the name of god, he doesnt do it because some greater power tells him to, he does the right thing because he feels that he has to. The angels trust him as you mentioned, with some of their holiest artifacts, because they know, even if he does screw up, he always tries his hardest to make it right again. We see that when he causes one of the swords to lose its power when he breaks an oath to his godmother I believe. He gets together with michael, hats up, and heads into a vampire den to get it back however he has to. He was facing the red court, representatives of the summer and winter fae, the other courts, a freaking dragon, etc etc etc. He could have given up, he could have accepted that he cost the knights of the cross one of their swords, but he didnt.

Of course, those are just the big moments, think about how he handled michaels daughter after she became his apprentice. She walks up to him, strips down and offers herself to him however he likes. He doesnt even hesitate to douse her with cold water, tell her to get dressed, and that this isnt going to happen. Legal age or not, there is no way he would do that with his best friends daughter, no matter how attractive she is. (And yes, at least partly because he watched her grow up) Though I can see that changing in future novels, considering how various events have occurred.

I have read all the main series books (I haven't been able to track down some of his miscellaneous stories, like that trilogy about Bigfoot) but sometimes when Harry is (metaphorically) flogging himself for the nth time, it seems that He ought to have sent a less perfect representative to interact with the wizard.

[Traab]

Um yeah about Dresden getting with intimate with Molly....

Yeah, if you haven't read this short story.....well....Molly tries to have sex with Carlos at the end, y'know that other White Council Warden she was attracted to? Yeah turns out the Winter Maiden Mantle has to protect itself from its host getting pregnant since to become pregnant is to become a mother and stop being a maiden, so when she tries to have sex, the Mantle basically takes her over, almost kills Carlos, and Molly basically can't have sex with anyone ever again because if she tries the Mantle will mess them up real bad.

So yeah. Harry is never getting any from Molly. At least as long as the Winter Maiden Mantle is on her which is probably forever. So any relationship they develop will have to be completely chaste and purely for love, or more probably, just never going to happen.



No I missed that one somehow, however, do we know that the winter knight even CAN get the winter lady preggers? Im just saying there could be a loophole there. After all, as winter knight he is basically the servant of the three queens of winter, and i would imagine going by the last winter lady that some want a certain type of service from time to time. I dunno, it honestly just feels like its moving in that general direction to me. Even if it doesnt happen any time soon, I dont see dresden staying the winter knight for very long, and I REALLY dont see him leaving molly behind like that.


I have read all the main series books (I haven't been able to track down some of his miscellaneous stories, like that trilogy about Bigfoot) but sometimes when Harry is (metaphorically) flogging himself for the nth time, it seems that He ought to have sent a less perfect representative to interact with the wizard.

Perhaps, however, it seems to me that dresden is the self flagellating kind of guy even if michael wasnt there to be an example. He feels responsible for any bad things that happen around him, and sometimes they arent even his fault! lol

[Kyberwulf]

I think you are projecting mate.

I think Harry has a perfect sense of who he is. I don't think he measures himself against anyone. He understands the value of everyone though. I think it's the opposite.

Harry sees Micheal as the proverbial big brother. The one who has all his stuff together. Who will always be there for him. At the drop of a hat.

[Traab]

I think you are projecting mate.

I think Harry has a perfect sense of who he is. I don't think he measures himself against anyone. He understands the value of everyone though. I think it's the opposite.

Harry sees Micheal as the proverbial big brother. The one who has all his stuff together. Who will always be there for him. At the drop of a hat.

Agreed, he doesnt want to disappoint him, but he feels that way about ALL his friends!

[Legato Endless]

I have read all the main series books (I haven't been able to track down some of his miscellaneous stories, like that trilogy about Bigfoot) but sometimes when Harry is (metaphorically) flogging himself for the nth time, it seems that He ought to have sent a less perfect representative to interact with the wizard.

That's not because of Michael though. That's because of deep seated personality flaws. Harry has abandonment issues from his childhood. His lack of self esteem is likely a product of all the abuse he suffered going up. He's had conflicting authority figures, one of whom instilled a strong sense of duty outside of oneself, another magnified a temptation to power through black magic. (Not to mention Lea). And Harry is keenly aware of that dichotomy, complicated by his own innate love of the craft. The guilt complex didn't pop into existence when he met this super awesome guy as a young adult. It's much older than that.


So yeah. Harry is never getting any from Molly. At least as long as the Winter Maiden Mantle is on her which is probably forever. So any relationship they develop will have to be completely chaste and purely for love, or more probably, just never going to happen.


It won't be forever. Mab is going to die. Molly -The Queen Who Is- seems pretty safe a prediction for this series.

[Forum Explorer]

Um yeah about Dresden getting with intimate with Molly....

Yeah, if you haven't read this short story.....well....Molly tries to have sex with Carlos at the end, y'know that other White Council Warden she was attracted to? Yeah turns out the Winter Maiden Mantle has to protect itself from its host getting pregnant since to become pregnant is to become a mother and stop being a maiden, so when she tries to have sex, the Mantle basically takes her over, almost kills Carlos, and Molly basically can't have sex with anyone ever again because if she tries the Mantle will mess them up real bad.

So yeah. Harry is never getting any from Molly. At least as long as the Winter Maiden Mantle is on her which is probably forever. So any relationship they develop will have to be completely chaste and purely for love, or more probably, just never going to happen.


Well it's heavily implied that Fix and Lily were an item, and Maeve certainly was trying to jump Harry's bones. Though she was also trying to kill him so I guess it was a win-win for her.

So I would guess that the Winter Knight is the one exception to that rule. Perhaps Harry has been rendered infertile by the mantle? Or maybe it's just the whole 'blood and sex' mojo that the Winter mantle pumps into both Molly and Harry, that makes sex so risky for them because no matter who their partner is, sexual pleasure is mixed with violence, so things can simply go really wrong if they lose control.

Regardless, I haven't read that one. Where could I get ahold of it?

Anyways, no I don't think Michael is a horrible influence on Dresden. He doesn't do bad things because of Michael's presence, and Michael has more then once been a guiding light to pull Dresden out of a bad funk. But Dresden certainly tries to hold himself to too high of a standard, but I think he'd do that regardless of Michael's presence in his life.

[khadgar567]

okay my conspiracy nut friends calm down only thing currently have power to remove the mantle from harry is mother winters powers of revealing and its damn hard for harry to demand her to give him some thing that break whole magic system the moment winter knight gone fix is gone as well

[Keltest]

okay my conspiracy nut friends calm down only thing currently have power to remove the mantle from harry is mother winters powers of revealing and its damn hard for harry to demand her to give him some thing that break whole magic system the moment winter knight gone fix is gone as well

You are mistaken. Mab can remove the mantle any time she feels like it (it's her power, after all), and Vadderung strongly implies that Dresden (or possibly even somebody else) can forcibly remove the mantle on Halloween.

[khadgar567]

You are mistaken. Mab can remove the mantle any time she feels like it (it's her power, after all), and Vadderung strongly implies that Dresden (or possibly even somebody else) can forcibly remove the mantle on Halloween.
mab does not have the power to remove mantle from harry because she cant control him and harry probably hurt her real bad the minute she becomes hostile to him as for Halloween stuff you gonna still need to kill him to get the mantle and currently he is living in island where any one except him gets scared sh*tless the moment they stand in the port so only people can take mantle from him is mother winter or molly or archive with some major help( lets not forget she has nearly same power level as mother of winter and she probably knows how to knit a unraveling) .

[Gnoman]

While it is true that Harry Dresden uses Michael Carpenter to calibrate his moral compass, that seems to be because Michael lives up to principles Dresden already holds dear. In the books before Michael was introduced, and in flashbacks to an era long before Dresden could possibly have met him, we already see the exact same hero complex that Dresden shows in the present day.

Harry is also extremely aware of the potential for evil he possesses (more than most, as he not only has to deal with the natural potential inherent in humans and any effects his brush with black magic may be having on him but also the insidious temptations of the Winter Knight's Mantle), and is rightfully afraid of it. He needs a guide to ensure he walks in the light whenever possible, and since he isn't on good terms with the Almighty or any other traditional sources of guidance (he's on decent terms with Odin, and his encounter with Hades was pretty friendly, but neither is the moral role model he needs), so Michael is it.

[thorgrim29]

Also having someone like Michael that he idolizes around to tell him to get over himself and that he's still a good man even if he's not perfect is really good for Harry, the other people he's close to (Thomas, Murphy, McCoy, Molly, etc...) have been known to cut corners morally, Michael hasn't so his judgement is untainted.

[Traab]

While it is true that Harry Dresden uses Michael Carpenter to calibrate his moral compass, that seems to be because Michael lives up to principles Dresden already holds dear. In the books before Michael was introduced, and in flashbacks to an era long before Dresden could possibly have met him, we already see the exact same hero complex that Dresden shows in the present day.

Harry is also extremely aware of the potential for evil he possesses (more than most, as he not only has to deal with the natural potential inherent in humans and any effects his brush with black magic may be having on him but also the insidious temptations of the Winter Knight's Mantle), and is rightfully afraid of it. He needs a guide to ensure he walks in the light whenever possible, and since he isn't on good terms with the Almighty or any other traditional sources of guidance (he's on decent terms with Odin, and his encounter with Hades was pretty friendly, but neither is the moral role model he needs), so Michael is it.

On the plus side, his life seems to have trained him to handle the mantle as best he can. His brushes with dark magic, the denarian coin, the standard temptation from marcone, he has spent his whole life with outside elements trying to corrupt him. That helps give him strength to resist the influence of the winter mantle that would twist most into a monster sooner rather than later. Im not saying he cant be corrupted, he can. Its just that he knows the general tricks of the trade, as it were. He has had fallen angels, corrupt mortals, and the sirens call of his own power whispering to him for years and he has rejected them all.

He can see most of the traps coming at this point. He knows when he is justifying doing something wrong, he knows when he is taking a step on a slippery slope, he knows when that person assuring him that just this once it will be ok is lying to him and what that one step will lead to. Heh, I wouldnt be surprised if Mab has a betting pool going on how long he can withstand the corruption of the mantle. I would bet large on him setting a record, if he cant find a way to get out of his deal beforehand. Which he will, eventually. Because he is Harry God Damn Blackstone Copperfield Dresden! He has Constantine levels of manipulation and evasion of deals with the devil. And the power to make those evasions stick!

[Gnoman]

On the plus side, his life seems to have trained him to handle the mantle as best he can. His brushes with dark magic, the denarian coin, the standard temptation from marcone, he has spent his whole life with outside elements trying to corrupt him. That helps give him strength to resist the influence of the winter mantle that would twist most into a monster sooner rather than later. Im not saying he cant be corrupted, he can. Its just that he knows the general tricks of the trade, as it were. He has had fallen angels, corrupt mortals, and the sirens call of his own power whispering to him for years and he has rejected them all.

He can see most of the traps coming at this point. He knows when he is justifying doing something wrong, he knows when he is taking a step on a slippery slope, he knows when that person assuring him that just this once it will be ok is lying to him and what that one step will lead to. Heh, I wouldnt be surprised if Mab has a betting pool going on how long he can withstand the corruption of the mantle. I would bet large on him setting a record, if he cant find a way to get out of his deal beforehand. Which he will, eventually. Because he is Harry God Damn Blackstone Copperfield Dresden! He has Constantine levels of manipulation and evasion of deals with the devil. And the power to make those evasions stick!

The thing is that I don't think he could deal with all that without Michael's presence. Harry almost always does the right thing when he thinks about it, but he has a tendency to act without thinking about it, which is dangerous. I'd have to go through the books to be certain, but I'm pretty sure there's been at least a few times when he's stopped from doing something because he realizes how Michael would react. Everything that you mentioned has tainted Harry's moral compass just enough that he needs some way of keeping it calibrated.

[Keltest]

mab does not have the power to remove mantle from harry because she cant control him and harry probably hurt her real bad the minute she becomes hostile to him as for Halloween stuff you gonna still need to kill him to get the mantle and currently he is living in island where any one except him gets scared sh*tless the moment they stand in the port so only people can take mantle from him is mother winter or molly or archive with some major help( lets not forget she has nearly same power level as mother of winter and she probably knows how to knit a unraveling) .

No, Mab CAN control harry. She chooses not to because he has made it clear he will be useless to her if she does so, but that doesn't mean she lacks the ability to do so if she chose to. They dedicated an entire scene in Ghost Story to establishing that.

Furthermore, the Mantle of the Winter Knight is hers to do with as she will, irrespective of what Harry does or wants. It isn't just power that Mab happens to control at the moment, it is intrinsically bound to her own mantle of power.


The thing is that I don't think he could deal with all that without Michael's presence. Harry almost always does the right thing when he thinks about it, but he has a tendency to act without thinking about it, which is dangerous. I'd have to go through the books to be certain, but I'm pretty sure there's been at least a few times when he's stopped from doing something because he realizes how Michael would react. Everything that you mentioned has tainted Harry's moral compass just enough that he needs some way of keeping it calibrated.

Historically, Harry has been far more likely to do something and then live in fear of Michael's scorn (which, of course, is not forthcoming) than he is to refrain from doing something because Michael would disapprove. The exceptions tend to be when something directly involves Michael or his family, at which point he respects Michael's methods, to a point.

[russdm]

Harry is always protective of his close friends and family, why else would he take certain actions like becoming Winter Knight to save his daughter? Of course, Harry is not a paladin like Michael.

Regarding Harry+Molly:

I think that the two mantles would go out of it's way to encourage sexual behavior. Both are tied with Mab, and Mad encouraging Molly to throw herself on Harry would be another way to mess with him. And with the Winter Knight Mantle, Mab can make or encourage Harry to accept Molly's overtures. Besides, it would be a very Winter thing for Mab to do.

I also think since we don't know how or when Mab had her kids, that it could be possible for the Winter Knight to knock up the Winter Lady. Has Molly shown any inclination not to raise Harry's kid if she somehow got pregnant by him? She did try to seduce him, and I don't anything suggesting that she has given up on the idea, just postponed it for Harry's feelings.

I am frankly more wondering about how Molly's mother is thinking about how Molly is the Winter Lady. How does she feel?

[The Glyphstone]

Last we knew, Molly was still keeping her new 'job' secret from her family.

[Lord Raziere]

Well it's heavily implied that Fix and Lily were an item, and Maeve certainly was trying to jump Harry's bones. Though she was also trying to kill him so I guess it was a win-win for her.

So I would guess that the Winter Knight is the one exception to that rule. Perhaps Harry has been rendered infertile by the mantle? Or maybe it's just the whole 'blood and sex' mojo that the Winter mantle pumps into both Molly and Harry, that makes sex so risky for them because no matter who their partner is, sexual pleasure is mixed with violence, so things can simply go really wrong if they lose control.

Regardless, I haven't read that one. Where could I get ahold of it?

Anyways, no I don't think Michael is a horrible influence on Dresden. He doesn't do bad things because of Michael's presence, and Michael has more then once been a guiding light to pull Dresden out of a bad funk. But Dresden certainly tries to hold himself to too high of a standard, but I think he'd do that regardless of Michael's presence in his life.

Cold Case is in the book Shadowed Souls. I should really read more urban fantasy anthology books, they are a great way to check out other authors and how they write, as well as what other worlds they explore.

[JCarter426]

The only time I thought Michael was a bad influence was the business with the coin - telling Harry to give up his magic and doubting Harry even after he was free of Lasciel. All that accomplished was making Harry beat himself up about it even more and it drove a wedge between them for a while. And if Harry had listened to him, the apocalypse would've happened by now. But all that can be written off due to extenuating circumstances and understandable paranoia about the coins.

Apart from that, I don't see it. At the very least, it's nothing of Michael's doing, and by Small Favor Harry knows he is not Michael and is ok with that, if his internal monologues are to be believed.

And their relationship isn't so one-sided. The books usually downplay how much Michael looks up to Harry, because Harry's an unreliable narrator and is all sorts of embarrassed about it.

[khadgar567]

Harry is always protective of his close friends and family, why else would he take certain actions like becoming Winter Knight to save his daughter? Of course, Harry is not a paladin like Michael.

Regarding Harry+Molly:

I think that the two mantles would go out of it's way to encourage sexual behavior. Both are tied with Mab, and Mad encouraging Molly to throw herself on Harry would be another way to mess with him. And with the Winter Knight Mantle, Mab can make or encourage Harry to accept Molly's overtures. Besides, it would be a very Winter thing for Mab to do.

I also think since we don't know how or when Mab had her kids, that it could be possible for the Winter Knight to knock up the Winter Lady. Has Molly shown any inclination not to raise Harry's kid if she somehow got pregnant by him? She did try to seduce him, and I don't anything suggesting that she has given up on the idea, just postponed it for Harry's feelings.

I am frankly more wondering about how Molly's mother is thinking about how Molly is the Winter Lady. How does she feel?

you don't need to child from molly he already banged his fairy god mother check the part were mab creating circle out side m of stonhenge the minute he gained the mantle he had forced sex with her god mother so if you want to give maggy supernatural sister or brother besides Bonnie butcher already did

[Sholos]

you don't need to child from molly he already banged his fairy god mother check the part were mab creating circle out side m of stonhenge the minute he gained the mantle he had forced sex with her god mother so if you want to give maggy supernatural sister or brother besides Bonnie butcher already did

... what? I am literally unable to parse this.

[khadgar567]

... what? I am literally unable to parse this.
As the last book harry has two daughters and one unknown gender child from her mab. which gonna be used as leverage against his possible rebellion against mab. you gonna say hold on where did harry sire third child and who is its mother? the answer lies in the changess book were harry gets winter mantle and imminently have hot sex with mab( if I remember correctly). So we dont need mab ordered sex with molly plot to have leverage to the further the plot . if you ask me mab already has her child with harry keeped hidden from him so when harry dies or rebels against her she can easily destroy him and have powerful replacement knight at readied in same time

from overlord list

If I have children and subsequently grandchildren, I will keep my three-year-old granddaughter near me at all times. When the hero enters to kill me, I will ask him to first explain to her why it is necessary to kill her beloved grandpa. When the hero launches into an explanation of morality way over her head, that will be her cue to pull the lever and send him into the pit of crocodiles. After all, small children like crocodiles almost as much as Evil Overlords and it's important to spend quality (http://german-sevspace.de/bilder/orig/s634.jpg) time with the grandkids just change grand children with children and grandpa stuff with mother and you have sub plot worth of single book i .

[Gnoman]

... what? I am literally unable to parse this.

Translation


As of the last main series book, Harry has two daughters, and one child of unknown gender from Mab. This child will be used as leverage against his possible rebellion against Mab. You don't know when Harry sired a third child and who is its mother is? The answer lies in Changes where Harry gets the winter mantle and immediately have hot sex with Mab (if I remember correctly). Because of this, there is no need for Mab to force Harry to have sex with Molly for her to to have leverage to the further the plot. If you ask me, Mab already has her child with Harry kept hidden from him so when harry dies or rebels against her she can easily destroy him and have a powerful replacement knight at the ready.




NOTE: I am not endorsing the theory, just trying to aid in comprehension.

[Keltest]

As the last book harry has two daughters and one unknown gender child from her mab. which gonna be used as leverage against his possible rebellion against mab. you gonna say hold on where did harry sire third child and who is its mother? the answer lies in the changess book were harry gets winter mantle and imminently have hot sex with mab( if I remember correctly). So we dont need mab ordered sex with molly plot to have leverage to the further the plot . if you ask me mab already has her child with harry keeped hidden from him so when harry dies or rebels against her she can easily destroy him and have powerful replacement knight at readied in same time

from overlord list
just change grand children with children and grandpa stuff with mother and you have sub plot worth of single book i .

There is no evidence that Harry had a child with Mab, and given what he subsequently did to the entire red court of vampires to get the child he did know about back, it would be an act of incredible stupidity on Mab's part were she to attempt to manipulate Harry that way. As Michael said, he did set a rather effective precedent.

[khadgar567]

There is no evidence that Harry had a child with Mab, and given what he subsequently did to the entire red court of vampires to get the child he did know about back, it would be an act of incredible stupidity on Mab's part were she to attempt to manipulate Harry that way. As Michael said, he did set a rather effective precedent.
it takes seven books to magie to be re introduced in to story so we can deffinetly say butcher has plans for the kid and there is at least 4 or 5 years to be kid to be around the asset age and we still dont know fey grows quicker or same rate as humans.

[Keltest]

it takes seven books to magie to be re introduced in to story so we can deffinetly say butcher has plans for the kid and there is at least 4 or 5 years to be kid to be around the asset age and we still dont know fey grows quicker or same rate as humans.

The difference is, Mab didn't drop out of the story for the duration of a pregnancy, we ran into her again a couple months later, and she was definitely not pregnant.

[khadgar567]

The difference is, Mab didn't drop out of the story for the duration of a pregnancy, we ran into her again a couple months later, and she was definitely not pregnant.
fey with powerful magic and deadly illusions so i hope this explains my reason .

[Keltest]

fey with powerful magic and deadly illusions so i hope this explains my reason .

Allowing for that for a moment, there still isn't any proof - at all - that Mab was pregnant.

[Traab]

Allowing for that for a moment, there still isn't any proof - at all - that Mab was pregnant.

There wasnt any proof that susan was pregnant either. And yes I know, she was out of the picture, but still, the potential IS there. And Mab IS the kind of being who would realize dresden is the kind of guy that will be working to get out of his winter knight status and setup a situation like this. It goes even deeper too. The three queens of the fae are often mothers and daughters. Mab may have gotten herself knocked up, not just to have another control over dresden, but to replace her somewhat out of control daughter maeve.

Or, to produce a new winter lady so maeve could be promoted to winter queen while mab took over as mother winter. Possibly to trap dresden with a scenario where his daughter is going to be stuck in a power struggle with maeve (remember this happened before maeve died) so he would HAVE to stick around and protect her till she is powerful enough to protect herself. There are SO MANY WAYS this could be setup that would make total sense for mab to have done this.

As for showing pregnancy, lets put aside glamours and illusions. You are assuming fae show pregnancy the same way, but even human women often dont have huge baby bumps, and fashion can cover up that bump easily enough.

[Keltest]

There wasnt any proof that susan was pregnant either. And yes I know, she was out of the picture, but still, the potential IS there. And Mab IS the kind of being who would realize dresden is the kind of guy that will be working to get out of his winter knight status and setup a situation like this. It goes even deeper too. The three queens of the fae are often mothers and daughters. Mab may have gotten herself knocked up, not just to have another control over dresden, but to replace her somewhat out of control daughter maeve.

Or, to produce a new winter lady so maeve could be promoted to winter queen while mab took over as mother winter. Possibly to trap dresden with a scenario where his daughter is going to be stuck in a power struggle with maeve (remember this happened before maeve died) so he would HAVE to stick around and protect her till she is powerful enough to protect herself. There are SO MANY WAYS this could be setup that would make total sense for mab to have done this.

As for showing pregnancy, lets put aside glamours and illusions. You are assuming fae show pregnancy the same way, but even human women often dont have huge baby bumps, and fashion can cover up that bump easily enough.

She already had a backup for Maeve. And trying to get to Dresden through his daughter ended badly for the Red Court, something Mab would definitely, definitely know about.

Plus, in a meta sense, he already has Maggie and, possibly, the unnamed spirit that was gestating in his brain. If Jim wanted to get to Harry through his family, he would almost certainly use an existing character (probably the one that was introduced for that purpose), rather than add yet another one. Besides, we already had the plot where Dresden was manipulated via a child he didn't know he had. It may technically be possible, but it is almost certainly not a thing that is going to happen again.

[khadgar567]

She already had a backup for Maeve. And trying to get to Dresden through his daughter ended badly for the Red Court, something Mab would definitely, definitely know about.

Plus, in a meta sense, he already has Maggie and, possibly, the unnamed spirit that was gestating in his brain. If Jim wanted to get to Harry through his family, he would almost certainly use an existing character (probably the one that was introduced for that purpose), rather than add yet another one. Besides, we already had the plot where Dresden was manipulated via a child he didn't know he had. It may technically be possible, but it is almost certainly not a thing that is going to happen again.
he give birth to bonnie( gestating head spirit) in last book. So any mad ideas for that books villain?

[Traab]

She already had a backup for Maeve. And trying to get to Dresden through his daughter ended badly for the Red Court, something Mab would definitely, definitely know about.

Plus, in a meta sense, he already has Maggie and, possibly, the unnamed spirit that was gestating in his brain. If Jim wanted to get to Harry through his family, he would almost certainly use an existing character (probably the one that was introduced for that purpose), rather than add yet another one. Besides, we already had the plot where Dresden was manipulated via a child he didn't know he had. It may technically be possible, but it is almost certainly not a thing that is going to happen again.

This is true, but it would be a different kind of trying to control him through his kid, as unlike the red court, mab has no intent to sacrifice the child, she will be far too useful alive. It also adds in all sorts of interesting future dilemmas, as a half fae, his kid will eventually have to decide which side of the divide she wants to stay on, with the potential to be the next winter lady to tempt her, and a whole host of potential enemies who will want her dead/controlled/suffering for reasons besides the ones who want dresden to suffer. And while he does have maggie, isnt she pretty firmly under the aegis of michael and the angels guarding his family and home? Its not impossible for her to get nabbed, far from it, but she isnt exactly the soft option for moving on harry.

[khadgar567]

This is true, but it would be a different kind of trying to control him through his kid, as unlike the red court, mab has no intent to sacrifice the child, she will be far too useful alive. It also adds in all sorts of interesting future dilemmas, as a half fae, his kid will eventually have to decide which side of the divide she wants to stay on, with the potential to be the next winter lady to tempt her, and a whole host of potential enemies who will want her dead/controlled/suffering for reasons besides the ones who want dresden to suffer. And while he does have maggie, isnt she pretty firmly under the aegis of michael and the angels guarding his family and home? Its not impossible for her to get nabbed, far from it, but she isnt exactly the soft option for moving on harry.
news flash traab our brother paladin wants harry to take responsibility for her own daughter. and we dont know fey kids gender it may be a boy for all we know.

[Keltest]

This is true, but it would be a different kind of trying to control him through his kid, as unlike the red court, mab has no intent to sacrifice the child, she will be far too useful alive. It also adds in all sorts of interesting future dilemmas, as a half fae, his kid will eventually have to decide which side of the divide she wants to stay on, with the potential to be the next winter lady to tempt her, and a whole host of potential enemies who will want her dead/controlled/suffering for reasons besides the ones who want dresden to suffer. And while he does have maggie, isnt she pretty firmly under the aegis of michael and the angels guarding his family and home? Its not impossible for her to get nabbed, far from it, but she isnt exactly the soft option for moving on harry.

Knowing harry as you do, do you think that it is at all likely that he would just bow down and roll over for Mab should she have a child of his under any sort of sway?

I think you missed my point. The problem isn't hurting a child, the problem is doing anything to a child, especially to get to Harry. That sort of plan is the kind which will quickly and obviously backfire on whoever is trying to pull it off. Threatening Harry or the people around him has never, ever, gotten an antagonist what they wanted without some sort of complication. The closest to come to that is Mavra, and Harry made it pretty clear to her that he has no qualms about crossing every line should she try and pull something like that again.

[Traab]

Ok kel, fair enough.

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, I gotta weigh in with Kel. Mab has enough levers to move Harry with, she doesn't need a stick of dynamite.

[Mith]

Also, I think Mab's character has been established as preferring not to harm her children, if she can avoid it.

Her problem is that being who she is, there are somethings that she cannot avoid doing at this point.

[Legato Endless]

Threatening Harry has basically been sunshine and rainbows for Mab, to use an all too summery metaphor. The problem with the pregnancy theory is that isn't Mab's style as far as I can see. It's too direct. The reason she always gets what she wants from him is because she's playing more angles than he is. Mab doesn't do, I have X, go do Y. It's: You're already in horrible situation z, go do what you do best. That's why she always wins with Harry (so far). She just coopts his natural tendencies toward her goal.

[Velaryon]

May I ask people to please spoiler plot points from later books such as Cold Days and Skin Game? I know the books are a few years old at this point, but there's nothing about the topic title that indicates spoilers that late in the series in this thread, and I know at least one Playgrounder who is reading the series presently and isn't quite up to the last book yet. I noticed posts from Gnoman and khadgar567 specifically, but there may be others as well. I'd take it as a kindness if you could put those bits of information behind spoilers, thanks. :smallsmile:

Anyway, on topic:

I don't think Michael is a bad influence on Harry. Sure, he's pretty much the personification of the impossible standard that Harry holds himself to, but a) Michael has made this point to Harry himself more than once, b) Harry has shown tendencies in this direction even before Michael was around, and c) Michael has definitely done enough good in Dresden's life to far outweigh any possible harm he does by appearing "too good" in comparison to Harry.

[Forum Explorer]

There is no evidence that Harry had a child with Mab, and given what he subsequently did to the entire red court of vampires to get the child he did know about back, it would be an act of incredible stupidity on Mab's part were she to attempt to manipulate Harry that way. As Michael said, he did set a rather effective precedent.

Here's a theoretical reason why she'd want Harry's child

So she'd have a Changling child that may inherit his magical potential and Harry's allies as a powerful servant. She may intend for the child to eventually inherit the Winter Knight mantle once it's an adult, and has no intention of actually informing Harry about the child. After all, if she can't get Harry to be her ally, she'll make a new Harry to do so. :smalltongue:

[khadgar567]

Here's a theoretical reason why she'd want Harry's child

So she'd have a Changling child that may inherit his magical potential and Harry's allies as a powerful servant. She may intend for the child to eventually inherit the Winter Knight mantle once it's an adult, and has no intention of actually informing Harry about the child. After all, if she can't get Harry to be her ally, she'll make a new Harry to do so. :smalltongue:
from the dresden rpg kid becomes scion not vanilla changeling we are talking major super powers not ordinary fey . kid becomes at least kinclaids caliber may be even more.

[Cozzer]

Come on, saying Michael is a bad influence on Harry for these reasons is basically saying we should stop being around people who we think are better than us. On the contrary, it helps us feeling better about ourselves by proxy. Harry mentions several times how the fact that Michael considers him a good man has helped him during his regular self-worth crisises.

Not to mention how during Skin Game, Harry finally gets desperate enough that he gives up his pride and his insecurities and tells everything to Michael, including the bad things he's done and the desperation he had been feeling since then. And Michael reacts in the most supporting, friendly and caring way possible.

[Seerow]

Here's a theoretical reason why she'd want Harry's child

So she'd have a Changling child that may inherit his magical potential and Harry's allies as a powerful servant. She may intend for the child to eventually inherit the Winter Knight mantle once it's an adult, and has no intention of actually informing Harry about the child. After all, if she can't get Harry to be her ally, she'll make a new Harry to do so. :smalltongue:

I could sworn I remembered reading that in Dresden Files magical capabilities get passed down through female lines; making it fairly unlikely that Dresden passes down magical ability. Though I will admit I may be completely making that up

[khadgar567]

I could sworn I remembered reading that in Dresden Files magical capabilities get passed down through female lines; making it fairly unlikely that Dresden passes down magical ability. Though I will admit I may be completely making that up
probably making up to as word of jim says maggie goes to magic high school from this probably we can say magic came from any parent since we have ebenezar a male wizard with daughter we can say clearly child inherits parents power .

[Forum Explorer]

I could sworn I remembered reading that in Dresden Files magical capabilities get passed down through female lines; making it fairly unlikely that Dresden passes down magical ability. Though I will admit I may be completely making that up

It's mentioned in White Night, that it's more common for a child to have wizarding talent if their mother had magic potential. But that's no guarantee, nor does it deny a male wizard from having wizard children. Harry's grandfather proves that.

[lt_murgen]

On the original topic,

I think the short story "The Warrior" firmly establishes that Michael isn't perfect. Dresden needed to be there for him. I think that went a long way towards evolving their friendship.

[Keltest]

probably making up to as word of jim says maggie goes to magic high school from this probably we can say magic came from any parent since we have ebenezar a male wizard with daughter we can say clearly child inherits parents power .

I want to see a source on that, especially since Maggie is still definitely elementary school age.

[khadgar567]

I want to see a source on that, especially since Maggie is still definitely elementary school age.
No active source that's basicly tv tropes page garbage

[lt_murgen]

probably making up to as word of jim says maggie goes to magic high school from this probably we can say magic came from any parent since we have ebenezar a male wizard with daughter we can say clearly child inherits parents power .


I want to see a source on that, especially since Maggie is still definitely elementary school age.


No active source that's basicly tv tropes page garbage

Reddit AMA 5-12-2014: Jim confirmed that Maggie went to the same school as the rest of the Carpenters while she was living with them. That being said, it would have had to be kindergarten.
TAW Skokie signing 10-1-2015: Jim did mention he is considering a young adult book with Maggie and Mouse when she 'goes off to school'.
JIm Butcher interview, Dragoncon 2016: Harry will be sending Maggie to a boarding school in town "St. Marks school for the gifted and talented". Described as a place where the supernatural folks all send thier kids. He also restated his desire to write a young adult series about Maggie and Mouse.

[khadgar567]

Reddit AMA 5-12-2014: Jim confirmed that Maggie went to the same school as the rest of the Carpenters while she was living with them. That being said, it would have had to be kindergarten.
TAW Skokie signing 10-1-2015: Jim did mention he is considering a young adult book with Maggie and Mouse when she 'goes off to school'.
JIm Butcher interview, Dragoncon 2016: Harry will be sending Maggie to a boarding school in town "St. Marks school for the gifted and talented". Described as a place where the supernatural folks all send thier kids. He also restated his desire to write a young adult series about Maggie and Mouse.
dont mind me here is your proof .

[tomandtish]

probably making up to as word of jim says maggie goes to magic high school from this probably we can say magic came from any parent since we have ebenezar a male wizard with daughter we can say clearly child inherits parents power .


Reddit AMA 5-12-2014:
JIm Butcher interview, Dragoncon 2016: Harry will be sending Maggie to a boarding school in town "St. Marks school for the gifted and talented". Described as a place where the supernatural folks all send thier kids. He also restated his desire to write a young adult series about Maggie and Mouse.

Note that one does not automatically equal the other. Attending a supernatural high school doesn't automatically mean magical powers. It could very well be a place (just started by Father Forthill) where everyone aware of the supernatural can get an education on how to deal with it.

Note: Not saying you are wrong, just saying one doesn't equal the other. For instance, while nothing has been shown yet, given Susan's circumstances at the time Maggie was conceived, it's always possible she has/develops abilities other than magic.

As for the original post, no more than any positive role model could be. The danger (if there is one) isn't Michael being a bad influence on Harry since he never really tries to influence Harry. It would be if Harry tried to live up to Michael's standards. That would almost certainly fail spectacularly, and the fall could be pretty bad.

[Lord Raziere]

As for the original post, no more than any positive role model could be. The danger (if there is one) isn't Michael being a bad influence on Harry since he never really tries to influence Harry. It would be if Harry tried to live up to Michael's standards. That would almost certainly fail spectacularly, and the fall could be pretty bad.

Yeah, a running theme of the series is that the supernatural side of things is a jungle and thats it kill or be killed, with the Knights of the Cross being the exception that proves the rule because of how much divine protection they have. Harry doesn't really have that protection, despite being a keeper of two swords. I suspect he is their keeper mostly because he isn't divinely affiliated with anyone and therefore isn't an obvious suspect for anyone looking for them- you'd expect the Swords to be in some obscure temple or guarded by a bunch of Angels, not by a scruffy wizard gumshoe with morally grey methods who raised a t-rex zombie from a museum. So no divine protection, because being divinely protected would give him away

He'd get eaten alive if he tried to be Michael. Look at the burnt hand he got just from doing things the "amateur" way because he had to save people inside from blampires, and that was with the explicit goal to kill the blampire doing it.

[Keltest]

Yeah, a running theme of the series is that the supernatural side of things is a jungle and thats it kill or be killed, with the Knights of the Cross being the exception that proves the rule because of how much divine protection they have. Harry doesn't really have that protection, despite being a keeper of two swords. I suspect he is their keeper mostly because he isn't divinely affiliated with anyone and therefore isn't an obvious suspect for anyone looking for them- you'd expect the Swords to be in some obscure temple or guarded by a bunch of Angels, not by a scruffy wizard gumshoe with morally grey methods who raised a t-rex zombie from a museum. So no divine protection, because being divinely protected would give him away

He'd get eaten alive if he tried to be Michael. Look at the burnt hand he got just from doing things the "amateur" way because he had to save people inside from blampires, and that was with the explicit goal to kill the blampire doing it.

To be fair, Harry has, repeatedly and loudly, told the audience that not only is evocation hard, but wizards are super vulnerable when you get the jump on them in ways that other supernatural people aren't. Its true, Harry, probably couldn't run around being Michael, but that's less because he lacks divine protection (something that Michael is quick to point out he doesn't actually possess in the way you seem to be implying) and more because his specific toolset doesn't lend itself to the sort of spontaneous action that Michael's does.

[khadgar567]

I bet 5 platinium pieces that before end of series harry becomes magus of cross

[Anonymouswizard]

I bet 5 platinium pieces that before end of series harry becomes magus of cross

I hope not. The great thing about Harry is that he's a non committed theist (he believes there is a higher power, because archangel, but doesn't have the drop faith of a knight of the cross). Merlin or Gatekeeper seems the most likely, X of the cross is unlikely (we still need a new welder for the Sword of Love, who is unlikely to be Thomas because romantic love is more his theme, Michael's thematic love is more of a friends and family thing (not that he doesn't love Charity romantically)). I wouldn't be surprised if it was Winter Knight Dresden alongside Winter Queen Molly and a new Winter Lady either.

[Keltest]

I hope not. The great thing about Harry is that he's a non committed theist (he believes there is a higher power, because archangel, but doesn't have the drop faith of a knight of the cross). Merlin or Gatekeeper seems the most likely, X of the cross is unlikely (we still need a new welder for the Sword of Love, who is unlikely to be Thomas because romantic love is more his theme, Michael's thematic love is more of a friends and family thing (not that he doesn't love Charity romantically)). I wouldn't be surprised if it was Winter Knight Dresden alongside Winter Queen Molly and a new Winter Lady either.

to be fair, Sanya is a self proclaimed agnostic, who does these things because theyre the right thing to do, not because God says they need to be done. Butters is Jewish, but we have no idea how much that actually affects his daily life. Being a righteous holy man is one way to qualify for Knighthood, but its not the only way.

Having said that, I definitely think Dresden works better as the wet works guy, willing to take steps down the dark road so that people like Michael can stay on the light.

[Traab]

I hope not. The great thing about Harry is that he's a non committed theist (he believes there is a higher power, because archangel, but doesn't have the drop faith of a knight of the cross). Merlin or Gatekeeper seems the most likely, X of the cross is unlikely (we still need a new welder for the Sword of Love, who is unlikely to be Thomas because romantic love is more his theme, Michael's thematic love is more of a friends and family thing (not that he doesn't love Charity romantically)). I wouldn't be surprised if it was Winter Knight Dresden alongside Winter Queen Molly and a new Winter Lady either.

Nah, Blackstaff. There is really no other option available for him by this point. And look at his resume. I think he has already proven his iron hard will and ability to avoid contamination by dark powers and such. I mean, He has had a fallen angel in his head, he is currently the winter knight, he has consorted with demons as well as fae folk and maintained his good nature. Not too mention the sheer feats of power and ability he has pulled off as basically a wizard baby. He hasnt even approached his full power yet and has already lead a decimated group of wardens. Then of course there is who the current blackstaff is. Lets face it, there is no path more likely. He COULD become the merlin one day, but it would likely be after some horrific council obliterating attack where he has to take charge of whats left. So yeah, Blackstaff.

[khadgar567]

I hope not. The great thing about Harry is that he's a non committed theist (he believes there is a higher power, because archangel, but doesn't have the drop faith of a knight of the cross). Merlin or Gatekeeper seems the most likely, X of the cross is unlikely (we still need a new welder for the Sword of Love, who is unlikely to be Thomas because romantic love is more his theme, Michael's thematic love is more of a friends and family thing (not that he doesn't love Charity romantically)). I wouldn't be surprised if it was Winter Knight Dresden alongside Winter Queen Molly and a new Winter Lady either.
I asked in butchers forum and the link (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,47815.0.html) to the treat it self. forum says this look like topic for book who cares.

[lt_murgen]

to be fair, Sanya is a self proclaimed agnostic, who does these things because theyre the right thing to do, not because God says they need to be done. Butters is Jewish, but we have no idea how much that actually affects his daily life.

From JIm Butcher interview, Dragoncon 2016: Jim says that there is a short story about Butter's first mission as a KotC. Not to spoil things, but evidently God speaks Geek.

[Kyberwulf]

This seems dangerously close to an alignment debate about Lawful Good and paladins >.>

However. I don't think you need to be follower of Christ to wield the blades. The Russian and the Coroner prove that. I think it's just the willingness to stand up for good and right. I think Harry can do that. Not only that, you seem to have to choose to wield the swords. That is one of the main things. I think Harry and Murphy both proved that it's a choice.

He will make a good night of the cross. I think Harry will be a wielder.

[Legato Endless]

Does Harry have time to be a Knight? He's collected a lot of other mantles of responsibility to carry.

[Anonymouswizard]

Does Harry have time to be a Knight? He's collected a lot of other mantles of responsibility to carry.

Wasn't there a word of Jim saying that Mab wasn't going to give him a sword as Winter Knight because it would make him less dangerous? (I remember the words 'someone else will take it from him and stab him with it')

Anyway, I agree that Harry doesn't have the time to be a KotC with his current mantles of Winter Knight and Warden of Demonroach, but I personally don't think that he's not qualified to be a knight anyway (he never shows the truly deep faith of any of the current Knights, even Sanya who does believe in right and wrong more than Dresden does*), so really the question is moot. I actually don't see Harry losing the Winter Knight mantle soon, partially because of Molly, until the apocalyptic trilogy because I can see it disappearing if the Winter Court or fae in general get destroyed.

* Sanya also has a truly staggering amount of faith that he just doesn't know for certain, far more than Harry has in his magic. Just because his faith isn't in religion doesn't mean that it isn't truly deep faith. Your average person would have likely met Archangel Michael and gone 'so that's a no on the whole deterministic universe thing then', Sanya says that it could feasibly be one of the many thing's he's encountered or something even stranger.

[digiman619]

For what its worth, I don't think that Michael's bad for Harry, I just wanted to have a discussion about it. Thanks all for your thoughts.

[Cozzer]

I really don't think Harry has what it takes to be a Knight of the Cross. Murphy didn't have it, after all, and they're both "grey people doing what's necessary" rather than "knights in shining armor". Rather, I think the story is showing that Knights in shining armor need someone like Harry around.

[khadgar567]

I think harry the magus of cross situation is more like mcguffin ex machina/ Chekhov gun for entire new story