Delay death spell + die hard feat. How do you rule this one as a DM?

[dehro]

The delay death spell from the spell compendium says you don't die if you fall below -9 hp, but you still end up unconscious as the dying status still occurs.
The feat die hard allows you to keep going when you hit negative points but explicitly says you still die when you hit -10 hp.
Would combining these two allow you to stay conscious and keep fighting even below -10 as long as you heal before delay death expires, or would you still fall unconscious,if not at 0, then once you hit -10?
The die hard feat gives you 10 extra points of leeway before death, but it doesn't specify what happens when you've got a means to not die at -10. My take is that the spell was written after the feat had been around for a while and it's author didn't bother to clarify the issue, but the limitations that come with the very strict formulation of the die hard feat shouldn't apply.
Opinions? House rules? Interpretations?

[Jowgen]

This is a pretty well known trick, and also one of the many things that go well with abuse of the (un)Hallow spell.

I believe the key phrase in this thing is this:


While under the protection of this spell, the normal limit of -9 hit points before a character dies is extended without limit.

Unless you rule that the -9 hp limit of Diehard (or, the rather superior Headband of Ferocity from Sword and Fist) is somehow not the same as the "normal limit", the combo works. However, ruling that they're seperate would cause a bit of a dysfunction where the spell no longer works for any character with the feat or item; as you'd have to take their -10=death rule as seperate.

All in all, the combo works, and in my opinion it's not really as much of a balance issue as one might think. There are plenty of ways to kill or otherwise disable a creature without relying on HP damage. Beyond that, getting rid of the spell (easily identified with spellcraft once the creature refuses to die when it should) or the headband, if in use, are other options.

[Deophaun]

The die hard feat gives you 10 extra points of leeway before death
No it doesn't. It gives you some leeway before unconsciousness, which means you're still a target and your party might not know to defend you (we've all had too many occasions where someone sat at one or two hit points yet didn't say anything until their character dropped). It's basically giving you ten extra hit points in exchange for a feat and one of the vulnerabilities of an undead creature. Without the delay death trick, it's horrible.

With the delay death trick, it an hilarious encounter for the PCs. Well, from the other side of the screen, that is.

[Pleh]

The Omnifiscer uses a similar mechanic in its build. It works just fine until delay death ends. You should hope you get some healing before it does.

[John Longarrow]

Even if they can continue functioning after -10 hp, they are still disabled. That can really put a damper on most characters since they act a lot like a zombie at that point (Standard OR move action).

Persistent Delay Death is useful to get out of an area that is too dangerous, but isn't all that effective as a combat technique for most PCs. If you are to the point you are relying on it, your in a lot of trouble anyhow.

Where it becomes really open for abuse is if you can get fast healing to go with it.

[dehro]

Even if they can continue functioning after -10 hp, they are still disabled. That can really put a damper on most characters since they act a lot like a zombie at that point (Standard OR move action).

Persistent Delay Death is useful to get out of an area that is too dangerous, but isn't all that effective as a combat technique for most PCs. If you are to the point you are relying on it, your in a lot of trouble anyhow.

Where it becomes really open for abuse is if you can get fast healing to go with it.
Fast healing gives you a bunch of HP per round.. On average, at higher levels, you're likely to face opponents that deal double digits damage per strike, so I don't know that it would really help.

[Necroticplague]

Even if they can continue functioning after -10 hp, they are still disabled. That can really put a damper on most characters since they act a lot like a zombie at that point (Standard OR move action).

Persistent Delay Death is useful to get out of an area that is too dangerous, but isn't all that effective as a combat technique for most PCs. If you are to the point you are relying on it, your in a lot of trouble anyhow.

Where it becomes really open for abuse is if you can get fast healing to go with it.


Fast Healing (Ex)

A creature with the fast healing special quality regains hit points at an exceptionally fast rate, usually 1 or more hit points per round, as given in the creature’s entry. Except where noted here, fast healing is just like natural healing. At the beginning of each of the creature’s turns, it heals a certain number of hit points (defined in its description). A creature that has taken both nonlethal and lethal damage heals the nonlethal damage first. Fast healing does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation, and it does not allow a creature to regrow lost body parts. Unless otherwise stated, it does not allow lost body parts to be reattached. Fast healing does not increase the number of hit points regained when a creature polymorphs.

While under the protection of this spell, the normal limit of -9 hit points before a character dies is extended without limit.
A condition or spell that destroys enough of the subject's body to prohibit raise dead (such as a disintegrate effect) still kills the creature, as does death brought about by ability score damage or drain, level drain, or a death effect.
The spell does not prevent the subject from entering the dying state by dropping to -1 hit points.

A character who becomes stable on his own (by making the 10% roll while dying) and who has no one to tend to him still loses hit points, just at a slower rate. He has a 10% chance each hour of becoming conscious. Each time he misses his hourly roll to become conscious, he loses 1 hit point. He also does not recover hit points through natural healing.
A person who is stable (at negative HP, but not dying) can't heal HP from natural healing, and thus can't recover using Fast healing.

[zergling.exe]

A person who is stable (at negative HP, but not dying) can't heal HP from natural healing, and thus can't recover using Fast healing.

So Die Hard is actively bad for characters with Fast Healing, as otherwise they would be down for 9 rounds max? Fail your save to become stable every round!

[Crake]

A person who is stable (at negative HP, but not dying) can't heal HP from natural healing, and thus can't recover using Fast healing.

I have never heard of anyone else who doesn't allow fast healing to heal dying people in your game. Vigor must be a terrible spell in your opinion.

Oh wait, you know what, turns out that the vigor spell specifically says that fast healing does in fact heal you and stabilize you if you're dying, what do you know

[Pleh]

So Die Hard is actively bad for characters with Fast Healing, as otherwise they would be down for 9 rounds max? Fail your save to become stable every round!

Diehard is definitely a hail Mary play. The feat does let you choose whether or not to use regular dying/disabled rules or not, so you’re not locked in to using the feat every time you hit 0 hp.

Adding delay death compounds the hail Mary, giving you a time limit rather than an hp limit.

Great for that climactic moment you are dying but need to finish the quest by destroying the mcguffin to save the world.

[Jowgen]

In regards to Fast Healing, it is almost universally an Extraordinary ability, and while "natural abilities" are a bit of a rules-hazy area in my opinion, they certainly are seperate from the Ex ones; i.e. fast healing =/= natural healing.

To compound this, if fast healing were to be treated as natural healing, then it would be subject to effects that double natural healing (depending on specific wording).

[Necroticplague]

In regards to Fast Healing, it is almost universally an Extraordinary ability, and while "natural abilities" are a bit of a rules-hazy area in my opinion, they certainly are seperate from the Ex ones; i.e. fast healing =/= natural healing.

To compound this, if fast healing were to be treated as natural healing, then it would be subject to effects that double natural healing (depending on specific wording). The fact fast healing is (ex) is unrelated to it being just like natural healing. It's just like natural healing because the ability explicitly says so.


I have never heard of anyone else who doesn't allow fast healing to heal dying people in your game. Vigor must be a terrible spell in your opinion.

Oh wait, you know what, turns out that the vigor spell specifically says that fast healing does in fact heal you and stabilize you if you're dying, what do you know

Dying has no prohibition on healing. Stable does. So what Fast Healing does is stabilize you, then leaves you hanging there until you get some other form of healing (or heal as per the rules for stabilized people). You'll get up eventually without help(since if you ever slip down to dying and lose an HP, your Fast Healing would kick in, heal you one, and stabilize you, meaning your HP can only go up), but it isn't necessarily 'one minute later' speed.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I have never heard of anyone else who doesn't allow fast healing to heal dying people in your game. Vigor must be a terrible spell in your opinion.

Oh wait, you know what, turns out that the vigor spell specifically says that fast healing does in fact heal you and stabilize you if you're dying, what do you know

He skipped over the following sections that make it clear that natural healing doesn't stop, merely slows dramatically for a dying character. There are some percentile rolls involved but when they come up positive limited healing kicks in until over 1 hp where -normal- natural healing resumes.

Fast healing is not normal natural healing and does not stop because a creature drops below 0.

[Thurbane]

Delay Death also interracts oddly the spell Beastland Ferocity.