How Viable is Moon Druid Using Only Dire Wolf Wild Shape (RAW, but prob. Homebrew)

[MrCeeJ]

So, much like the title says, I have an idea about a character story where the character is scratched/bitten by a Dire Wolf at a young age. I haven't hashed out everything yet, but this eventually translates into the character becoming a druid with a werewolf theme to where he can only wild shape into the Dire Wolf.

This is probably because I've played too much Skyrim lately, but I thought it'd be kind of fun to play a character that can turn into a wolf and druid seemed to be the obvious choice.

I feel like this would work well with the combination of barkskin and then changing into dire wolf, at least up to level 6. Once CR 2 and stronger beasts become available, I feel like it would fall behind. I think there's a snow wolf at a higher CR, but it counts as a monstrosity and not eligible right?

What are some of your ideas?

[dejarnjc]

So, much like the title says, I have an idea about a character story where the character is scratched/bitten by a Dire Wolf at a young age. I haven't hashed out everything yet, but this eventually translates into the character becoming a druid with a werewolf theme to where he can only wild shape into the Dire Wolf.

This is probably because I've played too much Skyrim lately, but I thought it'd be kind of fun to play a character that can turn into a wolf and druid seemed to be the obvious choice.

I feel like this would work well with the combination of barkskin and then changing into dire wolf, at least up to level 6. Once CR 2 and stronger beasts become available, I feel like it would fall behind. I think there's a snow wolf at a higher CR, but it counts as a monstrosity and not eligible right?

What are some of your ideas?


Honestly, just talk to your DM about leveling up the Dire Wolf form every time you reach a new wildshape CR level with maybe an elemental direwolf form for level 10 (just the current elemental stats but say it looks like a wolf). So level 6, 9, 10, 12, 15, and 18. I'm sure people on dmsguild have already done it so you could check there for some higher CR wolves and the DMs guide has guidelines on how to create creatures.

[MrStabby]

Just as a side note - have you considered a wolf barbarian with the rage corresponding to the change?

[MrCeeJ]

Just as a side note - have you considered a wolf barbarian with the rage corresponding to the change?

That's definitely a cool idea. I was thinking something with some magic to it (the town herbalist treated the character when he was young and learned about the dire wolf and lore that way, etc.), so I should have included that in the beginning. But I really dig it for a non caster version.


Honestly, just talk to your DM about leveling up the Dire Wolf form every time you reach a new wildshape CR level with maybe an elemental direwolf form for level 10 (just the current elemental stats but say it looks like a wolf). So level 6, 9, 10, 12, 15, and 18. I'm sure people on dmsguild have already done it so you could check there for some higher CR wolves and the DMs guide has guidelines on how to create creatures.

Yeah, I was looking through some of the beasts and maybe there's a way to upgrade the Dire Wolf stats at each CR interval. What about adding the character prof bonus? The main thing is heath and attack acc. and damage, since the AC will most likely always be at 16 with barskin.

[Blue Lantern]

Yeah, I was looking through some of the beasts and maybe there's a way to upgrade the Dire Wolf stats at each CR interval. What about adding the character prof bonus? The main thing is heath and attack acc. and damage, since the AC will most likely always be at 16 with barskin.

I don't know if it is balanced, but maybe you can take the UA revised ranger animal companion progression as a baseline to upgrade your wolf.

[MrCeeJ]

I don't know if it is balanced, but maybe you can take the UA revised ranger animal companion progression as a baseline to upgrade your wolf.

That's an interesting idea. I'll have to look into that.

[Zorku]

That progression is mostly about making the companion durable. Your damage output doesn't really scale, but between ability score increases (so long as you can figure out that a direwolf is using str based attacks and apply the changes appropriately,) and your proficiency modifier, you should at least be fairly close to the right values for +x to hit, right up until your direwolf hits 20 str and then starts to lag behind.
Where you're using pack tactics that probably balances out, and you've got the nice rider that knocks targets prone, so maybe that's worth it (and be sure to apply your str mod and proficiency bonus to the DC on that,) if you've got a bunch of melee buddies that will suddenly gain advantage against the target.

[tieren]

I don't know if it is balanced, but maybe you can take the UA revised ranger animal companion progression as a baseline to upgrade your wolf.

Actually that could be an interesting twist for the build, just be a revised ranger with a wolf companion, but occassionally suffer from a curse that forces you to swap bodies, so sometimes you ARE the wolf and the wolf's spirit possesses the ranger body. No mechanical changes needed at all, just fluff and role play.

I can picture you patrolling the woods as a wolf while the ranger sits by the fire in the inn licking himself or chewing on a bone.

[hymer]

I feel like this would work well with the combination of barkskin and then changing into dire wolf, at least up to level 6. Once CR 2 and stronger beasts become available, I feel like it would fall behind. I think there's a snow wolf at a higher CR, but it counts as a monstrosity and not eligible right?

What are some of your ideas?

It would be perfectly viable. Take the druid's subclass away, and you'd still have a perfectly playable character, because you'ds till have full druid spellcasting.
But it would be a considerable dip in your wild shape versatility, obviously. You won't get the goodness of elemental movement modes. You even sound like you expect to do your fighting in wild shape, which is a pretty bold idea for certain levels - and not viable with only dire wolf shape.

So here's my thought: Use the monster stat creation in DMG and make a dire wolf shape of CRs 2-6 (or have the DM do it, as there's considerable tweaking available and some judgement calls to be made). Then ask your DM to let you take the land druid's circle stuff at level 10 (and possibly 14) instead of moon circle stuff. And finally see if you can get something appropriate for giving up on wild shapes with various utility, especially the movement modes; say, you get an extra cantrip at 4 and a skill proficiency at 8.

[Asmotherion]

So, much like the title says, I have an idea about a character story where the character is scratched/bitten by a Dire Wolf at a young age. I haven't hashed out everything yet, but this eventually translates into the character becoming a druid with a werewolf theme to where he can only wild shape into the Dire Wolf.

This is probably because I've played too much Skyrim lately, but I thought it'd be kind of fun to play a character that can turn into a wolf and druid seemed to be the obvious choice.

I feel like this would work well with the combination of barkskin and then changing into dire wolf, at least up to level 6. Once CR 2 and stronger beasts become available, I feel like it would fall behind. I think there's a snow wolf at a higher CR, but it counts as a monstrosity and not eligible right?

What are some of your ideas?

I think it's quite viable really... Either way it's one of the most buffed classes.

However it seems what you want to archive can be done by talking with your DM and asking to get the Lycanthrope Template on your character (you backstory only needs to replace the Dire Wolf that bit you with a Werewolf... still it needs to be aproved by your DM). This way, you can get any class you want freely, and get your Werewolf themed character. If your DM seems to worry about balance, offer to take the Cyrcle of the Moon druid, in order for your Lycanthrope Form to be more of a Fluff thing for you. Finally, add some Totem Barbarian Levels to gain some passive wolf characteristics (and, Druid with Barbarian as a multiclass option have great synergy).

Alternatively, the Eberon Unearthed Arcana contains some Shifter Race Options.

[MrCeeJ]

These have all been great ideas. I appreciate the input.

I did think about the werewolf affliction, but I feel like the theme of the character is more based off of some sort fey/druidic enchantment rather than the werewolf curse. I wasn't very clear about that in the beginning, though I didn't quite have it completely thought out anyways.

I didn't realize there was instructions in the DMG for creating monsters and modifying the CR of something so that's be worth a read.

One of the posts above mentioned that doing my fighting in Wild Shape was a bold move. My thoughts for this character would be to have mainly healing/buffing spells and then any attacks would be done through wild shape and expending slots for healing myself. Are Moon Druids not meant to fight in their Wild Shape?

[Zorku]

So here's my thought: Use the monster stat creation in DMG and make a dire wolf shape of CRs 2-6 (or have the DM do it, as there's considerable tweaking available and some judgement calls to be made).It's actually rather straight forward. Pack tactics counts as a +1 attack bonus, and the knocking creatures prone effect of bite doesn't seem to alter the basic calculation. Going by the chart on page 274 it's a 1/4th CR defensively and a 2CR offensively, which averages out to (round up) 1CR.
If you step up both categories you've got (3+0.5)/2, which rounds up to 2CR, and that pattern holds for whatever CR you want.

CR 6 ArchDirewolf has about 130 hp, 15 AC, with a +6 to hit bite that deals an average of 48 damage and has a save DC of 15.
You probably want that attack to be a multiattack to keep you sane, so... (4x 2d8+3 gets the right average damage, but 4 attacks is a lot to roll... 3x 2d10+5 looks better, but that would mean a str mod of 5, which would bump the to hit up to 7, and with pack tactics that's gonna put us over so...)
3x 2d12+3 =average of 48. Stats didn't have to change except that the 15 DC =/= 8+prof+str(14.) If we bump str up by one the to-hit puts us into the next offense category...
(8+4)/2=
...
6!

Good thing we've been rounding up this whole time, but even if we hadn't we could choose to drop the damage a level to fix it... just with all new dice math.



One of the posts above mentioned that doing my fighting in Wild Shape was a bold move. My thoughts for this character would be to have mainly healing/buffing spells and then any attacks would be done through wild shape and expending slots for healing myself. Are Moon Druids not meant to fight in their Wild Shape?
I think it's more like at low levels it's tough to stay wildshaped all of the time. If you're getting a short rest after every 2 combats you can do it, so long as nothing knocks you out of wild shape, but the early duration isn't going to last from one fight to the next.

The forum opinion of moon druid is kind of low, but I haven't really dug into that, so maybe they mean something else.

[Saggo]

I think it's more like at low levels it's tough to stay wildshaped all of the time. If you're getting a short rest after every 2 combats you can do it, so long as nothing knocks you out of wild shape, but the early duration isn't going to last from one fight to the next.

The forum opinion of moon druid is kind of low, but I haven't really dug into that, so maybe they mean something else.

This and Wild Shape has very low DPR (without some very specific multiclassing shenanigans) until you get Foresight where it has average DPR for 8 hours a day. As pointed you are a full caster, except while wildshaped this only means you might have a single concentration spell active.

You need custom Dire Wolf shapes just to keep up with your party, especially if you want to use Wild Shape offensively (Moon Druid Wild Shape is still one of the best defensive abilities, although base Dire Wolf diminishes that a bit).

[hymer]

It's actually rather straight forward.

What I was thinking about was that you can tweak and fiddle with the numbers quite a bit within the parameters. AC 15 can count as anything from tier 5 to 7. And as long as you aim for CR 3, would you tweak to get as close to 115 as possible? It's not entirely unimportant if you have 101 or 115 hp in your bag. And you can reduce the number of hit dice to bump the con. Same amount of hp giving the same tier, but you get a better Concentration save. And what about extra abilities that don't factor into the CR directly, like keen senses or an ability to leap a great distance?
The DM may well have something to say about things like that.

[MrCeeJ]

It's actually rather straight forward. Pack tactics counts as a +1 attack bonus, and the knocking creatures prone effect of bite doesn't seem to alter the basic calculation. Going by the chart on page 274 it's a 1/4th CR defensively and a 2CR offensively, which averages out to (round up) 1CR.
If you step up both categories you've got (3+0.5)/2, which rounds up to 2CR, and that pattern holds for whatever CR you want.

I cracked into the DMG to look at the CR table and it wasn't as straight forward as I was hoping. I saw what you mentioned as far as Offensive vs Defensive stats and how it averages out to be a CR 1 for the dire wolf, but what determines the HP? For a CR 1, the HP listed is way higher than the HP that it actually has. The HP isn't listed under either offense or defense. As far as modifying the Dire Wolf to match certain CRs, what if I were to just take the highest value in the range of each stat, since I'd be giving up utility and other forms?

Also, what would adding multiattack do to the CR? It wasn't realy listed in there.




This and Wild Shape has very low DPR (without some very specific multiclassing shenanigans) until you get Foresight where it has average DPR for 8 hours a day. As pointed you are a full caster, except while wildshaped this only means you might have a single concentration spell active.

You need custom Dire Wolf shapes just to keep up with your party, especially if you want to use Wild Shape offensively (Moon Druid Wild Shape is still one of the best defensive abilities, although base Dire Wolf diminishes that a bit).

What if the Conjure Animal were used to create other dire wolves along side the character as they fight? That would increase the DPR, but it takes away survivability of the druid in wild shape going with the lower AC.

I take it conjure animals is the way it's supposed to be played, but I just feel like I read somewhere that wild shape druid was pretty competitive in melee. Even if I went with the other shapes, it seems like the AC and damage are lacking though, or at least the AC is.

[Saggo]

What if the Conjure Animal were used to create other dire wolves along side the character as they fight? That would increase the DPR, but it takes away survivability of the druid in wild shape going with the lower AC.

I take it conjure animals is the way it's supposed to be played, but I just feel like I read somewhere that wild shape druid was pretty competitive in melee. Even if I went with the other shapes, it seems like the AC and damage are lacking though, or at least the AC is.

Wild Shape starts (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=1940277557) competitive offensively, but scales poorly, eventually comparable to just Cantrips. Defensively, Wild Shape will always be competitive because it's bonus action ablative insta-HP.

Dire Wolves specifically are basically Great Swords with average Str. Consistent Advantage will cover up the lack of ASIs for a while. Keep up Conjure Animals 50% of the time will give you an average 2 attacks a round (Half the time 3 with 3 Dire Wolves on the field, half the time just your 1). An assumption sure, but it paints the picture (and it's a very generous assumption at lower levels when 3+ spell slots are at a premium). So until level 11, you can swing as often as other people with a comparable weapon and use advantage to cover up lack of scaling and ASIs.

The problem is that you've now devoted everything you can to doing what a very average Fighter or Barbarian does, except that's the minimum baseline they're bringing and have other abilities to pile on top. Wild Shape is just a very poor offensive option past level 5, which kind of sucks.

That's why people recommend custom Dire Wolf stats. You have some multiclassing options too, and pure Wild Shape does do very well levels 2-5ish, so it depends on your focus.

[MrCeeJ]

Wild Shape starts (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=1940277557) competitive offensively, but scales poorly, eventually comparable to just Cantrips. Defensively, Wild Shape will always be competitive because it's bonus action ablative insta-HP.

Dire Wolves specifically are basically Great Swords with average Str. Consistent Advantage will cover up the lack of ASIs for a while. Keep up Conjure Animals 50% of the time will give you an average 2 attacks a round (Half the time 3 with 3 Dire Wolves on the field, half the time just your 1). An assumption sure, but it paints the picture (and it's a very generous assumption at lower levels when 3+ spell slots are at a premium). So until level 11, you can swing as often as other people with a comparable weapon and use advantage to cover up lack of scaling and ASIs.

The problem is that you've now devoted everything you can to doing what a very average Fighter or Barbarian does, except that's the minimum baseline they're bringing and have other abilities to pile on top. Wild Shape is just a very poor offensive option past level 5, which kind of sucks.

That's why people recommend custom Dire Wolf stats. You have some multiclassing options too, and pure Wild Shape does do very well levels 2-5ish, so it depends on your focus.

Yeah, I get what you're saying. I even thought changing the theme to instead of Dire Wolf, I would use a bear form instead, but that only helps me up to CR 3 I think.

Level 2-5 will be fun since I won't have to re-work anything. Maybe multi-classing to barbarian at character level 6 would be cool, but it seems to conflict with the somewhat pacifist feel of this character. He'd be mainly a healer and the more I think of this character, the more I like the "I'll only take a life to save a life" mind set. But that could change so I don't know, lol.

As far as customizing the Dire Wolf stats as the CR increases, what would you recommend for the stats of it for, say, CR 2. I feel like I could navigate the CR table, but determining the hit points is throwing me off.

[Giant2005]

Just ask your DM if all of your Wildshapes can have the stats and abiliities of whatever you actually qualify for, while looking like Wolves of varying sizes (depending on the animal you are basing it on). It would only be a cosometic change, so I can't see anyone saying no.

[Zorku]

What I was thinking about was that you can tweak and fiddle with the numbers quite a bit within the parameters. AC 15 can count as anything from tier 5 to 7. And as long as you aim for CR 3, would you tweak to get as close to 115 as possible? It's not entirely unimportant if you have 101 or 115 hp in your bag. And you can reduce the number of hit dice to bump the con. Same amount of hp giving the same tier, but you get a better Concentration save. And what about extra abilities that don't factor into the CR directly, like keen senses or an ability to leap a great distance?
The DM may well have something to say about things like that.I usually just set the con to what feels right and then go with the first factors that get me in the target range. In this case I'd probably look at the basic direwolf and do the CR6 one, then try to evenly space the con bumps as best I could.


I cracked into the DMG to look at the CR table and it wasn't as straight forward as I was hoping. I saw what you mentioned as far as Offensive vs Defensive stats and how it averages out to be a CR 1 for the dire wolf, but what determines the HP? For a CR 1, the HP listed is way higher than the HP that it actually has. The HP isn't listed under either offense or defense. As far as modifying the Dire Wolf to match certain CRs, what if I were to just take the highest value in the range of each stat, since I'd be giving up utility and other forms?

Also, what would adding multiattack do to the CR? It wasn't realy listed in there.
HP is part of calculating defensive stats, so it's right in line with that defensive CR.

The highest values are ok, but you do need to convert them into dice that make sense, even if your game always takes average roll values for hp gain. If you want to be consistent with the other monsters in the MM then creature size determines hit dice size (which is fine, since you can have any number of those to hit the hp target range,) and as a monster you're just using the average result of that many hit dice. I don't think the beast hit dice really give you anything as a player, so it's just for world consistency.

The DMG doesn't explicitly make you tie dex and strength scores into your damage and AC, but the MM creatures all seem to have stats that make sense that way, save for a weird outlier here or there that uses str to get their spell save DC or something.


Multiattack isn't so much a way of dealing more damage, but making the damage make sense with dice sizes. Normal size creatures usually roll 1 dice for damage, large roll 2, huge roll 3. (Greatwords are basically twice the size of normal swords, thus they use 2 dice like large sized creature weapons,) There's not really a way to have a normal sized monster deal much more than what you can get with a high primary ability mod and a d20... (Average: 11+modifier) until you give them multiple attacks.

In this case the CR 6 direwolf should deal an average of 48 damage in a round if their attacks all hit. 1d20+37 is nonsensical (especially since it is a large creature) so it's gonna get multiple attacks instead. The 3x 2d12+3 dice math I gave has each attack dealing an average of 16 damage, and with 3 attacks that means the average is 48, and thus we've kept the offensive CR right where it needs to be for this to be a CR6 creature.

I don't have time to comb through my book right now, but they explained multiattack like this... somewhere.



Just ask your DM if all of your Wildshapes can have the stats and abiliities of whatever you actually qualify for, while looking like Wolves of varying sizes (depending on the animal you are basing it on). It would only be a cosometic change, so I can't see anyone saying no.
Blech, those things are nothing like wolves, and do you just choose to not use flight and aquatic type abilities?

No, a wolf's gotta have pack tactics, keen senses, and a tackle attack rider. Otherwise it might as well be a moa in a wolf costume.

[MinotaurWarrior]

If you only have one form, barding becomes much more reasonable to purchase, which can help.

Direwolves work well for MC moon druids because most of their power doesn't come from actions, but rather abilities that work with standard PC actions. On a related note, it doesn't quite work RAW, but I think it's very very appropriate for a Moon Druid 2 / Sorc 3 to be able to use subtle spell metamagic to cast in wildshape (since, on a creative / in game level, it's supposed to be the lack of a hyoid and thumbs that prevents you from doing V & S components, and thereby casting spells).

An IMO hilarious build would be a Moon Druid 2 / Beastmaster Ranger 6 / Monk 5 / Barbarian 1 / Sorcerer 3 / Warlock 3. If going by strict RAW, replace the 6 CHA caster levels with either more monk, or Paladin 6.

What's the point of that, you ask?

Being a mount to your ape animal companion. Duh. At character level five against a favored enemy you attack using the Bite action for 2d6+5 and a rider, and then on his turn your ape hits for 1d6+8, with both of you having advantage if the target is medium or smaller. Also, you're pretty sticky, because of the double AoO. Get to character level 8, and your ape is doing 2x 1d6+12 damage. At CL 9 you're now reliably doing 2x 1d4+7 with wolf headbuts, and your ape is doing 2x 1d6+12 still. CL 13, and you're reliably getting 3x1d6+7, and your ape is doing 2x 1d6+13. Plus, you have a bunch of random goodies from being a monk, like stunning strike, slow fall, deflect missiles, unarmored movement (unless you got barding), deflect missiles, and a tradition feature (I'd recommend Touch of Death). CL 14 gives you rage for +2 damage. At CL 17 you get to cast spells in wolf form (DM-dependant) allowing for hunters mark and whatnot. Warlock three gives you an imp to ride the ape riding you, as well as hilarious wolf pew pew.

37 Hp is very low after level 5. I might try to argue for letting your ape take mounted combatant, or for you to take a homebrew feat "combatant mount" that grants the benefits of that feat to anyone riding you, so the ape can tank for you.

Nomatter what though, even if entirely limited to RAW, you're basically getting five (or six) attacks a turn, with guaranteed advantage against medium creatures. And you're a freaking ape riding a giant wolf.

[MrCeeJ]

Even if I just MC'd beast master/moon Druid, I absolutely love the idea of the ape companion/dire wolf duo. That just seems like an amazingly awesome and entertaining combo.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Even if I just MC'd beast master/moon Druid, I absolutely love the idea of the ape companion/dire wolf duo. That just seems like an amazingly awesome and entertaining combo.

Be careful though - I'm pretty sure it's impossible to not smile and laugh while attacking this way, so you may end up with a sore face at the end of each session.

[MrConsideration]

Ask your DM if you can simply use other forms (Polar Bear, Mammoth etc) and refluff them as a Wolf. This is what my party does at early levels because we always choose Brown Bear for combat - use Brown Bear stats but claim to be a Panther or whatever.

Provided you're not a Giant Spider Dire Wolf climbing on the ceiling it wouldn't matter.