3.5 Warlock build for Divine setting

[SilverDirewolf]

Hello all, my first post!

Ok so here is the deal, I have never played a spell caster and would like to give Warlock a shot. I play with a bunch of real "roll" players so to measure up it has to be a real damage dealer. I would like to have a familiar that i can use to scout with and will be invisible and banishable when necessary (but I don't think an Imp would be allowed since it is Asgard and I will ask to make sure). I have been considering a Tibbit, SilverBrow Human or other shifter class but am not set on it by any means totally open to suggestions just want something fun and different. I am female and play female characters so want a charismatic/dark female character role.

The campaign is in Asgard. We will be using a lot of thought processes to get through jams due to most of the big bosses are literally Gods! There will be a lot of TPKs as being in Asgard we will be resurrected back to life every sunrise. Will be a lot of knowledge checks and skill checks to be sure! Being a warlock you can already see my plight...

:smallconfused: What would you do?

In your posts please also give stat suggestions, feats, possible builds and general ideas. We are starting at level 3. GO!

[NecroDancer]

Does animate dead work on Asgard? And can you find a source of onyx? If the answer is yes then start making an army.

[Tiri]

You might find this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?265455-The-Newest-Warlock-Handbook-3-5) helpful.

If you want a familiar you also have to multiclass since Warlocks can't get familiars.

[JoranShadeslayr]

They can get a familiar with the obtain familiar feat in complete arcane.

[Martimus Prime]

A few levels of hellfire warlock, coupled with a level of binder or the shape soulmeld feat to get resistance to the ability damage is a pretty popular tactic, and binding Naberius when you have beguiling influence active has a neat side-perk that makes you pretty much instantly the party face. Also, be sure to make good use of things like quicken spell-like ability and mortalbane to boost DPS at every opportunity.

[John Longarrow]

What will your function be in the party? If most (or all) of the other players are emphasizing damage dealing you may want to go with a build that will help you make them better damage dealers rather than trying to use warlock to compare to their damage.

[Tiri]

They can get a familiar with the obtain familiar feat in complete arcane.

They aren't arcane casters.

[Kesnit]

They aren't arcane casters.


A warlock does not prepare or cast spells as other wielders of arcane magic do.

Emphasis added.

Warlocks are arcane casters, per the book that introduced them.

[SilverDirewolf]

I am sure that I will assist with damage but most of the party goes for damage so mostly assist in nature. I'm just wondering if I work it into a Pact Certain that my "master" would send a imp to my aid as I am a very tricky sort who is looking to get out of the pact. The pact would have been formed while defending my village from invaders and to save them all I summoned this demon to lay waste to our foes. Thus it was under duress of third parties that I signed it or otherwise the village would have been doomed. Making a pact certain under duress is fightable in the devil court but I wouldn't know that. I would be continuously searching for a way to null the pact. Perhaps the imp helps and encourages my deeds especially when they go towards the lawful or evil side. I will see the DM for that game tomorrow so what kind of things should I ask him to get a clearer picture of things. He did say he wanted to talk about my role as he is planning in Asgard to make magic behave differently. As in spells will be very powerful but I will also have to roll on his wild magic chart when I plan to cast. Going to be very interesting to say the least but I am up to the challenge!

[SilverDirewolf]

What will your function be in the party? If most (or all) of the other players are emphasizing damage dealing you may want to go with a build that will help you make them better damage dealers rather than trying to use warlock to compare to their damage.

see response above :)

[SilverDirewolf]

A few levels of hellfire warlock, coupled with a level of binder or the shape soulmeld feat to get resistance to the ability damage is a pretty popular tactic, and binding Naberius when you have beguiling influence active has a neat side-perk that makes you pretty much instantly the party face. Also, be sure to make good use of things like quicken spell-like ability and mortalbane to boost DPS at every opportunity.


I am trying to stay away from Hellfire Warlock as the DM himself likes to play that class when we play with the other DM so I don't want to be a "copy cat." Still looking for stat suggestions, feats and race. I don't think mortalbane is going to be needed much considering we will be in Asgard the planes of the Gods.

TY

[Malroth]

Other Damage boosters that work on Warlock.

Psionic shot/greater psionic shot. Pretty much requires you to be an Elan kalashtar or Xeph or to dip a psionic class
Sneak attack/Craven Needs a rogue dip
Martial stance (Assasin's stance). requires Martial study feat for a shadowhand strike or a swordsage dip at 5
Eldritch Claws/Improved Natural attack claw/Beast strike requires you to melee
Craft Wand/two weapon fighting/double wand wielder/empower spell/Metamagic spell trigger requires you make a bunch of really expensive wands

[Snowbluff]

I agree with picking up Obtain Familiar. It's a good feat, worth the slot. Getting an improved familiar, like a Jaculi, might be nice as well. It would benefit from Divine Power as well.

If you're going for a divine setting, and you want to avoid HFW, I actually do enjoy the Eldritch Disciple. With Eldritch Glaive, Power Attack, and Divine Power, you can put in some good damage. Cleric3, Some warlock levels, it's an easy entry. Ask your DM if he'll allow Practiced Spellcaster to improve your Warlock Eldritch blast (the original author agrees)

You'll want some Str, Cha, and Wisdom for you cleric casting. Figuring out your Cha/Wis balance is really going to be up to weather or not you like Casting or Invocations better.

Now, I doubt you'd be allowed law devotion, so maybe pick up Chaos Devotion, and/or Travel Devotion, and fuel those with your turning attempts.

Consider Divine Metamagic Persistent Spell as well. It might makes things go more smoothly.

Luminous Armor is another good spell, since you can't invoke in heavier armors without ASF.

[John Longarrow]

Imp + Asgard should be a problem. Too many good aligned angelic beings for it to comfortably hang around. Most of the beings you run into would also toast it on site.

If you need to do outdoorsy stuff, you may want to look at something besides warlock. Druid and Ranger are both potent "assist in nature" classes. Both can become potent melee powerhouses if built right.

[SilverDirewolf]

I agree with picking up Obtain Familiar. It's a good feat, worth the slot. Getting an improved familiar, like a Jaculi, might be nice as well. It would benefit from Divine Power as well.
If you're going for a divine setting, and you want to avoid HFW, I actually do enjoy the Eldritch Disciple. With Eldritch Glaive, Power Attack, and Divine Power, you can put in some good damage. Cleric3, Some warlock levels, it's an easy entry. Ask your DM if he'll allow Practiced Spellcaster to improve your Warlock Eldritch blast (the original author agrees)
You'll want some Str, Cha, and Wisdom for you cleric casting. Figuring out your Cha/Wis balance is really going to be up to weather or not you like Casting or Invocations better.
Now, I doubt you'd be allowed law devotion, so maybe pick up Chaos Devotion, and/or Travel Devotion, and fuel those with your turning attempts.
Consider Divine Metamagic Persistent Spell as well. It might makes things go more smoothly.
Luminous Armor is another good spell, since you can't invoke in heavier armors without ASF.

Not really going with a cleric build or divine magic use. But the Eldrich Disciple does look good. Going to ask about the pact thing tomorrow so I don't have to waste a feat on familiar. Mostly going to be stand back casting so looking for some damage there. I will ask about the Practiced Spellcaster. What do you think will help with the resurrection angle (at this point I don't know if it will be a problem may just be something he overlooks, but just in case). Will be definitely going with the metamagic and maximize.

[SilverDirewolf]

Imp + Asgard should be a problem. Too many good aligned angelic beings for it to comfortably hang around. Most of the beings you run into would also toast it on site.

If you need to do outdoorsy stuff, you may want to look at something besides warlock. Druid and Ranger are both potent "assist in nature" classes. Both can become potent melee powerhouses if built right.


Na this is between me and the GM... he is gonna make it hard but I am confident with the right build I can pull this off, plus the imp can be banished and resumed at will.

[Snowbluff]

Not really going with a cleric build or divine magic use. But the Eldrich Disciple does look good. Going to ask about the pact thing tomorrow so I don't have to waste a feat on familiar. Mostly going to be stand back casting so looking for some damage there. I will ask about the Practiced Spellcaster. What do you think will help with the resurrection angle (at this point I don't know if it will be a problem may just be something he overlooks, but just in case). Will be definitely going with the metamagic and maximize.

If your thinking about optimizing damage over range with warlock, and not using HFW, Eldritch Theurge. I'll assume a sorcery entry.

Feats:
Any dragon mark
Mark of the Dauntless
Iron Will (see below, maybe pick it up with an otyugh hole)
Reserves of Strength
Rapid metamagic
Empower spell

Reserves of Strength let's you break the cap of your damage spells, giving lower level spells like hail of stone more mileage. Eldritch the urge can combine their Eldritch blast and area spells, or Eldritch essences with their ray spells. The first ability is good for a little extra damage, the second is good for getting around resistances and spell resistance with Vitriolic Blast.

Dunno what to do about the ressurections, thoguh.

[AmberVael]

Ok so here is the deal, I have never played a spell caster and would like to give Warlock a shot. I play with a bunch of real "roll" players so to measure up it has to be a real damage dealer.


I am trying to stay away from Hellfire Warlock as the DM himself likes to play that class when we play with the other DM so I don't want to be a "copy cat."

Warlocks are not amazing damage dealers at the best of times. With Hellfire warlock they can make it work, but its not the easiest or even the best thing to do with them. Without it, if you're playing with an optimized group... it probably won't go well at all.

Its also worth considering that warlocks are just not powerful, period. I love the class and its mechanics, but if you need something competitive, warlock is not the place to begin looking. It has a lot of limitations, and you're going to really feel those limits if you try and keep up with others.

If you DO want to try and optimize warlock, the place to look is not its damage. Use stuff like Noxious Blast combined with Eldritch Chain/Eldritch Glaive or Chilling Tentacles, Caustic Mire, or Nightmares Made Real to seriously debilitate enemies, Charm and Devil's Whispers to make everyone a friend or a pawn, and Walk Unseen, Flee the Scene and Path of Shadow to be the slimiest, most difficult to catch or keep out bastard around.

What you may notice is that all that good offensive stuff I mentioned is only available at level 11, and that only one of those invocations is available at level 1... and its a combo piece. Also at level 3 you have a grand total of 2 invocations. If you play a warlock, prepare for a slog. You don't start off powerful, and your power gain is pretty slow. Even at the end your list of options is pretty small.

Edit: To be clear, I don't recommend you take ALL of those invocations. There are serious redundancies in that list.

[SilverDirewolf]

Other Damage boosters that work on Warlock.

Psionic shot/greater psionic shot. Pretty much requires you to be an Elan kalashtar or Xeph or to dip a psionic class
Sneak attack/Craven Needs a rogue dip
Martial stance (Assasin's stance). requires Martial study feat for a shadowhand strike or a swordsage dip at 5
Eldritch Claws/Improved Natural attack claw/Beast strike requires you to melee
Craft Wand/two weapon fighting/double wand wielder/empower spell/Metamagic spell trigger requires you make a bunch of really expensive wands

Elan kalashtar may work but they work against evil how will that bode with a Warlock build? Also it states right in the Xeph class "Xephs have an innate resistance to psionics and magic." So don't know how that would work with being a spellcaster.

How does psionics fit in exactly with powering eldrich spells? I know there are ways to flavor the blast but how would you figure in the psionic damage?

[SilverDirewolf]

Warlocks are not amazing damage dealers at the best of times. With Hellfire warlock they can make it work, but its not the easiest or even the best thing to do with them. Without it, if you're playing with an optimized group... it probably won't go well at all.
Its also worth considering that warlocks are just not powerful, period. I love the class and its mechanics, but if you need something competitive, warlock is not the place to begin looking. It has a lot of limitations, and you're going to really feel those limits if you try and keep up with others.
If you DO want to try and optimize warlock, the place to look is not its damage. Use stuff like Noxious Blast combined with Eldritch Chain/Eldritch Glaive or Chilling Tentacles, Caustic Mire, or Nightmares Made Real to seriously debilitate enemies, Charm and Devil's Whispers to make everyone a friend or a pawn, and Walk Unseen, Flee the Scene and Path of Shadow to be the slimiest, most difficult to catch or keep out bastard around.
What you may notice is that all that good offensive stuff I mentioned is only available at level 11, and that only one of those invocations is available at level 1... and its a combo piece. Also at level 3 you have a grand total of 2 invocations. If you play a warlock, prepare for a slog. You don't start off powerful, and your power gain is pretty slow. Even at the end your list of options is pretty small.
Edit: To be clear, I don't recommend you take ALL of those invocations. There are serious redundancies in that list.

I Love how you think! Yes I'm not the most worried about doing so much damage as being helpful. I will definitely note those that you mentioned. That is just the stuff I need to know! What would be a good class? Elan was mentioned before which may not be a bad idea to add psionics to power up the blast. What do you thinK?

[Inevitability]

Quick bit of advice: you can reply to multiple posts at once by using the small "+ button at every post's bottom right, then clicking reply. It's easier, reduces clutter, and most importantly allows you to stick to the forum rules.

[AmberVael]

Elan kalashtar may work but they work against evil how will that bode with a Warlock build? Also it states right in the Xeph class "Xephs have an innate resistance to psionics and magic." So don't know how that would work with being a spellcaster.

How does psionics fit in exactly with powering eldrich spells? I know there are ways to flavor the blast but how would you figure in the psionic damage?


I Love how you think! Yes I'm not the most worried about doing so much damage as being helpful. I will definitely note those that you mentioned. That is just the stuff I need to know! What would be a good class? Elan was mentioned before which may not be a bad idea to add psionics to power up the blast. What do you thinK?

The psionic races were mentioned solely for their ability to quality for two feats: Psionic Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicShot), and Greater Psionic Shot. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterPsionicShot) I don't really recommend them for a warlock. Not only does it require you to get access to psionics somehow (which is rather a waste of features you could get from your race), but it will requires quite a few feats and a lot of actions to do. +2d6 to your eldritch blast damage sounds nice, but you have to jump through hoops to get it.


As for a good class... if you mean other than warlock, the traditional spellcasters are by far some of the most powerful. Personally I like sorcerer: while the prepared casters (like cleric, druid, wizard, etc) are held to be stronger, sorcerer absolutely has power enough for anything you might want and is simpler to play (though you need to be careful while building it). The psion is also a nice class, for similar reasons to sorcerer. There are also non-caster classes to be considered, but since you said you were after casters, I'll stick with those for now.

Between psion and sorcerer, psion is easier to build in a way that lets you chuck massive amounts of dice at people (or similar), while I'd say sorcerer can more easily obtain serious flexibility and has more endurance. (Note, sorcerer can absolutely chuck tons of dice at people, maybe even better than psion, its just a bit more finicky to do).

[Troacctid]

Some good warlock prestige classes that might interest you:


Eldritch Theurge and Eldritch Disciple: Already mentioned. Both quite strong.
Halfling Whistler: Talk to plants and animals, walk on the wind, whistle up tornadoes, summon squirrels the size of elephants. Must be a halfling. Has difficult skill requirements.
Urban Savant: Use Knowledge skills to peek at the enemy's statblock. Sadly doesn't work on outsiders. Very good for skillmonkeys.
Demonbinder: Bind demons to your flesh to enhance your eldritch blast and gain special abilities. Scales with Charisma. Must be a drow or half-drow.
Tainted Scholar: Fun with insanity. Use your taint to determine DCs instead of Charisma. Ask your DM if you can use Blooded Metamagic with invocations. Evil.
Heartfire Fanner: For the warlock who wants to be a bard. Gives you bardic music and strong buff abilities. Takes a bit of work to qualify for.

I have a full list of compatible prestige classes here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1geywITbI4M-Up08SGD-rUHlnobR66aIgKqu7mILkmhU/edit#gid=691970088&fvid=1096364663).

Some good feats for a utility warlock: Nymph's Kiss, Obtain Familiar, Improved Familiar, Celestial Familiar, Planar Familiar, Craft Wondrous Item, Extra Invocation, Leadership, Wild Cohort, feats to qualify for Urban Savant or Halfling Whistler.

If you have the choice, I actually recommend getting a celestial familiar rather than an imp. Lantern archons, for example, are absurd.

Most primary spellcasting classes are stronger than warlock. Here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1geywITbI4M-Up08SGD-rUHlnobR66aIgKqu7mILkmhU/edit#gid=1606060866&fvid=1190706316) is a list of full casters.

[Lonely Tylenol]

My advice mirrors Snowbluff's. (Long time, no see!)

You probably won't keep up in damage with a non-Hellfire Warlock build if the party is higher-op, so don't focus on damage. Get an essence or two that allows you to debuff enemies in hilarious ways, and a shape that lets you multi-target. Deliver the junk mail through debuff spamming. You can grab a rod or two in place of Eldritch shapes you're not comfortable wasting invocation slots on (Spear, Chain, and Cone are probably the best of each tier to buy a rod for, but in order of usefulness, I'd probably rank Chain as the most cost-efficient). Grab Chilling Tentacles when you can for superme battlefield debuffing.

Eldritch Disciple eats a few Warlock levels, but fits the divine flavor, gets you no shortage of Cleric spells to chew on, and some useful theurgic abilities. Eldritch Theurge is the same, but for arcane, and lets you take a damage role without HFW.

My favorite thing to do with Warlock is still "be Chameleon", but this is limiting on the basis of race. It also doesn't seem to fit your stated goals here.

EDIT: Borrowing advice from the guide (my own advice, actually): focus on two or three things you want to do, and do them as well as you can. Think about the three pillars explored in 5e (combat, exploration, social) and your role within them; focus on maybe one combat role and one or two non-combat roles to excel in and gear your invocations and other resources to success in those fields.

I'd like to get more specific, but I've been away from 3.5 for years, and I had to read the guide I co-authored just to catch up. Plus, I don't have a good idea of what specific theme or identity you're going for here, so general advice > specific.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Your problem is the Warlock really isn't a flexible class, and relatively under-powered in general compared to most 'real' casters. Generally, you can optimize it to do a job, but that depends on what you want that job to be.

Mostly, people use Warlock for HFW for lots of at-will damage output, or for dipping for some at-will SLA's.

If you're wanting to be more flexible, two level dip in Chameleon wouldn't be the worst thing to eventually happen to you. That's gonna require Human or Changeling race. Human warlocks aren't bad, it's a class which is traditionally feat-strapped. That floating feat is quite useful to a Warlock. It can be an extra invocation, it can be an item crafting feat, it can be all kinds of things when you need it.

If you want to do lots of damage, you're gonna need Eldritch Glaive, it's the only way to get multiple attacks out of your Eldritch Blast. Other options include Chain Blast and Eldritch Cone, but those are higher-level so you won't have access to them for quite some time, and Cone offers a Ref/half save, which means anything with Evasion pretty much ignores you.

You're also going to need to stack damage bonuses somehow, and that's the trickier part. That's what HFW is typically for, you stack on piles of damage per swing and find some way to deal with the Con damage. Without that, your damage is going to be sub-par no matter what you do.

A clever option would be to dip a level of Mindbender (get the Charm invocation at level 6 to qualify) then pick up the feat Mindsight and you can be a party radar.

[Troacctid]

If you're wanting to be more flexible, two level dip in Chameleon wouldn't be the worst thing to eventually happen to you. That's gonna require Human or Changeling race. Human warlocks aren't bad, it's a class which is traditionally feat-strapped. That floating feat is quite useful to a Warlock. It can be an extra invocation, it can be an item crafting feat, it can be all kinds of things when you need it.
However, this is only useful at very high levels (generally 16+, or 12+ at the earliest if you want to be really aggressive with it) and does not really work well with other prestige classes.


If you want to do lots of damage, you're gonna need Eldritch Glaive, it's the only way to get multiple attacks out of your Eldritch Blast. Other options include Chain Blast and Eldritch Cone, but those are higher-level so you won't have access to them for quite some time, and Cone offers a Ref/half save, which means anything with Evasion pretty much ignores you.
Let's be fair, Eldritch Glaive is not available until high levels either. You can technically get it early, but it doesn't do anything until level 8 at the soonest. (Okay, it enables opportunity attacks, but most enemies generally avoid provoking those.)


That's what HFW is typically for, you stack on piles of damage per swing
Unfortunately, Eldritch Blast is weaponlike, and with weaponlike spells, bonus damage applies only to the first attack. So while Hellfire Warlock is great, it's not quite that great. Works fine with Eldritch Cone, though, and it works with Eldritch Chain due to the specific wording of the invocation.

[SilverDirewolf]

Can each one of you give me a build, class, race, feats you think would be most useful for this campaign. I don't care overly much to compete for damage but would like to be impressive at times. I will be dealing with divine forces so keep that in mind. Focusing on blast and familiar seems like the most useful path to take. Let me know at what levels you would dip into another class and what pre-requisites you would need to do so. Through at least level 15 please.

I will put together a final build based on your suggestions and keep you in the loop how the play goes!!

You guys are pretty amazing with all your knowledge and help. TY my new friends!

[Snowbluff]

My advice mirrors Snowbluff's. (Long time, no see!)

Hi! I haven't been around, since I do most of my own research now, and I spend more time playing PbP 3.5, and doing 5e IRL.

TY my new friends!

Friends? I don't think we can be friends without a commitment.
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b630/Snowbluff/iIzReQO_zpslbameycj.gif (http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/Snowbluff/media/iIzReQO_zpslbameycj.gif.html)

Build vomit time!

SpontaenousCleric3/Warlock2/EldritchDisciple10
Domains: Trickery and Travel (Travel Devotion)
Other Feats:
H) Practiced Spellcaster Warlock
1) Chaos Devotion
3) Power Attack
6) Extend Spell
9) Persistent Spell
12) DMM Persistent
15) Extra Turning
Power Attack + Divine Power + Glaive. You can also use thise combo with Healing Blast to beat the crap out of heal a teammate.

Sorcerer4/Warlock1/Eldritch Disciple10
H) Least Dragon Mark
Otyugh HOle) Iron Will
1) Mark of the Dauntless
3) Reserves of Strength
6) Versatile Spellcaster
9) Practiced Spellcaster: Warlock
12) Empower Spell
15) Rapid Metamagic
Just blast with your class features to combine eldritch blast and area spells. Has a familiar, that you can hide with Familiar pocket. Maybe take a flaw for improved familiar and Minor Shapeshift (good bonus HP)

Warlock1/Binder4/Animamage10
H) Precocious Apprentice (You need it for Anima mage Entry)
Otyugh Hole) Iron Will
1) Heighten Spell (useles, jsut for entry)
3) Improved Binding (+2 to binder level)
6) Practice Spellcaster
9)
12)
15) Favored Vestige: Zceryll

Now, if you want to get REALLY cheeky, do these builds with Dvati, pick up 2 flaws for Improved Toughness and to replace the lost human bonus feat. Bonus points if you also pick up Minor Shapeshift for temporary HP on the sorcerer build. Trickery Devotion can also be very good for remotely casting.

[Tiri]

Emphasis added.

Warlocks are arcane casters, per the book that introduced them.

They don't cast spells, they use spell-like abilities, which are not spells and therefore not arcane or divine.

As a result they cannot qualify for the arcane casting level requirement of Obtain Familiar.

[Darrin]

They don't cast spells, they use spell-like abilities, which are not spells and therefore not arcane or divine.

As a result they cannot qualify for the arcane casting level requirement of Obtain Familiar.

Not so. Complete Arcane p. 72:

"In the context of a feat or a prestige class requirement, a caster level prerequisite (such as “caster level 5th”) measures the character’s ability to channel a minimum amount of magical power. For feats or prestige classes requiring a minimum caster level, creatures that use spell-like abilities or invocations instead of spells use either their fixed caster level or their class level to determine qualification. For example, Craft Wondrous Item has a requirement of caster level 3rd, so both a 3rd-level warlock and a nixie (caster level 4th for its charm person spell-like ability) meet the requirement."


Since Obtain Familiar only requires arcane caster level 3rd (rather than the ability to cast a specific spell level), Warlock 3 qualifies.

[Tiri]

Not so. Complete Arcane p. 72:

"In the context of a feat or a prestige class requirement, a caster level prerequisite (such as “caster level 5th”) measures the character’s ability to channel a minimum amount of magical power. For feats or prestige classes requiring a minimum caster level, creatures that use spell-like abilities or invocations instead of spells use either their fixed caster level or their class level to determine qualification. For example, Craft Wondrous Item has a requirement of caster level 3rd, so both a 3rd-level warlock and a nixie (caster level 4th for its charm person spell-like ability) meet the requirement."


Since Obtain Familiar only requires arcane caster level 3rd (rather than the ability to cast a specific spell level), Warlock 3 qualifies.

Warlocks do not cast arcane spells, nor are their spell-like abilities arcane, as only spells can be arcane or divine. Therefore, they do not have an arcane caster level, even if flavor text describes their powers as arcane in nature.

[Socratov]

Another thing could be to get warlock 12 with 2 levels of chameleon and start crafting. As for waht to craft, well scrolls of major wizard spells and wands of the 'classics' would do nicely. Just make sure tot pump that spellcraft check so you can correctly imbue item like you're an artificer. after that it's just UMD 'till your kingdom come.

[Troacctid]

A few quick, lazy builds:

The Know-It-All
NG Human Warlock 4/Paragnostic Apostle 1/Urban Savant 9/Paragnostic Apostle +1
1. Nymph's Kiss
Human: Touchstone (Healing Waters of Abu-Ima)
Flaw: Favored (Paragnostic Assembly)
3. Knowledge Devotion
6. Obtain Familiar
9. Planar Familiar (lantern archon)
12. Extra Invocation
15. Extra Invocation
Skills (don't skimp on Int!): Concentration, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device, Knowledge (Arcana, Planes, Religion, Local, Dungeoneering, Nature), Bluff, Sense Motive

The Demonbinder
CE Savage Drow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) Warlock 5/Demonbinder (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070430a&page=3) 10
1. At Home in the Deep
3. Obtain Familiar
6. Improved Familiar (quasit)
9. Combat Intuition
12. Extra Invocation
15. Extra Invocation
Skills: Concentration, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device, Bluff, Sense Motive, Knowledge (Planes)

The Whistler
LG Strongheart Halfling Warlock 5/Halfling Whistler (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20061121a) 10
1. Apprentice (Woodsman)
Strongheart: Nymph's Kiss
3. Obtain Familiar
6. Celestial Familiar (lantern archon)
9. Extra Invocation
12. Extra Invocation
15. Extra Invocation
Skills: Concentration, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device, Knowledge (Nature), Handle Animal/Perform/Survival (4 ranks each only), Bluff/Diplomacy (Bluff during warlock levels, Diplomacy during whistler levels), Sense Motive

The Musician
TN Illumian (uurkrau) Wizard 1/Warlock 4/Eldritch Theurge 4/Heartfire Fanner 1 (Warlock)/Sublime Chord 1/Eldritch Theurge +6 (Sublime Chord)/Heartfire Fanner +4 (Sublime Chord)
1. Able Learner
Flaws: Apprentice (Entertainer), Improved Sigil (Krau)
Wizard: Improved Initiative
3. Negotiator
6. Obtain Familiar
9. Planar Familiar (lantern archon)
Heward's Hall: Skill Focus (Perform)
12. Minor Shapeshift
15. Mother Cyst

Rawr I'm A Bear
LG Illumian (uurnaen) Warlock 5/Sentinel of Bharrai 10
1. Sacred Vow, Vow of Obedience
3. Knowledge Devotion
6. Obtain Familiar
9. Planar Familiar (lantern archon)
12. Extra Invocation
15. Extra Invocation
Flaw: Inattentive
Skills: Concentration, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device, Knowledge (Arcana, Planes, Religion, Local, Dungeoneering, Nature)


Warlocks do not cast arcane spells, nor are their spell-like abilities arcane, as only spells can be arcane or divine. Therefore, they do not have an arcane caster level, even if flavor text describes their powers as arcane in nature.
Rules text describes their powers as arcane in nature. In multiple places. Warlocks are arcane casters, explicitly.

[Tiri]

Rules text describes their powers as arcane in nature. In multiple places. Warlocks are arcane casters, explicitly.

The warlock's powers may be arcane, but arcane is also a English word that has a meaning of something mysterious or secret, which is something they are, even if they do not cast arcane spells, and therefore a valid word to describe said powers with.

You're ignoring the fact that they don't actually cast spells, which are the only things that can be arcane or divine (in D&D terms).

Warlocks use spell-like abilities, so the only way they could possibly have an arcane caster level is to have arcane spell-like abilities, which don't exist. There is no such thing. Arcane spells, yes, but spell-like abilities are not spells, they only resemble them.

[Troacctid]

The warlock's powers may be arcane, but arcane is also a English word that has a meaning of something mysterious or secret, which is something they are, even if they do not cast arcane spells, and therefore a valid word to describe said powers with.

You're ignoring the fact that they don't actually cast spells, which are the only things that can be arcane or divine (in D&D terms).

Warlocks use spell-like abilities, so the only way they could possibly have an arcane caster level is to have arcane spell-like abilities, which don't exist. There is no such thing. Arcane spells, yes, but spell-like abilities are not spells, they only resemble them.

Then maybe you'll explain all of these references to warlocks being arcane casters:


http://i.imgur.com/IzT6kH6.png

A warlock does not prepare or cast spells as other wielders of arcane magic do.

However, a warlock’s arcane repertoire is even more limited than that of a sorcerer, and his invocations are spell-like abilities, not spells.

http://i.imgur.com/Izs5N6x.png

To qualify to become a blood magus, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
[...]
Spells or Spell-Like Abilities: Arcane caster level 5th.

To qualify to become an enlightened fist, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
[...]
Spells or Spell-Like Abilities: Arcane caster level 3rd.

To qualify to become a green star adept, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
[...]
Spells or Spell-Like Abilities: Arcane caster level 1st.

To qualify to become a mindbender, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
[...]
Spells: Able to cast charm person, use charm person as a spell-like ability, or use the charm invocation.
Spells or Spell-Like Abilities: Arcane caster level 5th.

To qualify to become a wild mage, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
[...]
Spells or Spell-Like Abilities: Arcane caster level 1st.

The reputation of these fell arcanists is simply too black, and it takes a lord of exceptional wisdom and character to ignore a warlock’s fearsome reputation and look into the heart of the person beneath the stereotype.

Schools aren't the only method for understanding and working arcane magic, just the most successful one. Other approaches can prove just as effective, at least for some arcanists. Warlocks, for example, are classified as users of arcane magic (because they don't rely on a deity or ethos for their magical power), but they don't work their magic within the framework that schools have defined.

An eldritch disciple is a believer in divine heresies, wielding both arcane and divine abilities.

An eldritch disciple gains innate arcane powers as other warlocks do, but she supplements them by actively worshiping the source of those powers.

If the powers of a drow warlock stem from bargains with (or descent from) Lolth-associated demons, she is considered blessed by the Spider Queen. If these individuals meet all the other priesthood requirements, can hold status even though they are technically arcane spellcasters.

This is only a smattering—if you dig around, you'll find more references to warlocks as arcanists here and there.
Do you have any citation that indicates that warlocks are not arcane? Because it seems to me that there is a preponderance of textual evidence saying that they are.

[Krazzman]

In a divine setting I personally would go for Warlock/Cleric/Eldritch Theurge (?). I haven't looked into Warlocks for years now but the last build I had was Warlock1/cleric 2 going for travel domain stuff and... I don't remember anymore.
I'm not sure but what if you go the other warlock esque class dragonfire adept(?) and go for debuting breaths?
Alternatively mixing Bard with it since DFI will be appreciated.

[Segev]

In a setting where death is cheap, but being able to survive longer means you're a bigger badass, Eldrich Disciple is really not a bad idea.

The cool thing about it is that you can use the Eldrich Glaive combined with Healing Blast to hit multiple friends or hit a single friend multiple times with the full damage of your blast...as healing. It actually is enough healing to be noteworthy in combat, unlike many healing options.

"Binder (for Naebarius) + Hellfire Warlock" is a favorite of mine, but you said you didn't want to go that way. (I will note that, to me, Naebarius is the best of the proposed ways to get around the HF Warlock's cost, because others arguably violate the HF warlock's "any effort to fail to pay this" clause.) I also would point out Bloodline Levels, normally a bad thing, stack with HF Warlock. As do levels of Legacy Champion and Fortune's Friend. Which would allow you to push the HF warlock well past 6 extra dice.

Personally, given the norse opinion of magic and the setting, I'd be trying to play a Loki-inspired character, so I'd try to talk the DM into letting me have alter self as an Invocation I can use at will. I'd even argue that, despite being a reasonably powerful 2nd level spell, it could work as a Least invocation.

Failing that, I'd look for seeming as a higher-level Invocation (Greater, perhaps) so you can disguise your whole party.


You might ask for "Fell Flight" to be reskinned to "Valkyrie Flight" or something, and give you holy wings rather than shadow-wings. Heck, done right, "Warlock" could be used for the mechanics behind playing a Valkyrie.

[Troacctid]

"Binder (for Naebarius) + Hellfire Warlock" is a favorite of mine, but you said you didn't want to go that way. (I will note that, to me, Naebarius is the best of the proposed ways to get around the HF Warlock's cost, because others arguably violate the HF warlock's "any effort to fail to pay this" clause.)
The best way is to just use magic items, as it is very cheap and you don't lose an invoker level (which is a painful cost unless you're already like level 16+).


I also would point out Bloodline Levels, normally a bad thing, stack with HF Warlock. As do levels of Legacy Champion and Fortune's Friend. Which would allow you to push the HF warlock well past 6 extra dice.
Bloodline levels should work, but I don't think Legacy Champion does. It only improves your effective level as if you had gained a level in the class, which you can't do it it's capped out.


Personally, given the norse opinion of magic and the setting, I'd be trying to play a Loki-inspired character, so I'd try to talk the DM into letting me have alter self as an Invocation I can use at will. I'd even argue that, despite being a reasonably powerful 2nd level spell, it could work as a Least invocation.
Dragonfire adepts have a similar ability as a lesser invocation, so there's precedent for it being higher-level.

Personally, I'd just get a Hat of Disguise.

[Segev]

The best way is to just use magic items, as it is very cheap and you don't lose an invoker level (which is a painful cost unless you're already like level 16+).I can't think of magic items which don't violate the "prevention" clause. Remember, you have to actually LOSE the Con. Naebarius lets you HEAL it afterwards. All the other means I've seen negate the loss. At best, there's a fluff attempt to say "no, no, the magic item pays it for you," but that's highly questionable, as you could make that argument about anything, and thus is a clear attempt to violate, rather than work around, the "cost must be paid" clause.


Bloodline levels should work, but I don't think Legacy Champion does. It only improves your effective level as if you had gained a level in the class, which you can't do it it's capped out.It's a clear part of the class progression, and the class text says that you gain it every level. Not that you gain it at level 1, level 2, and level 3. Anything which advances your effective level of HF warlock will add it. There would have to be text spelling out a cap of +6d6 to have that stop Legacy Champion, and that would also stop bloodline levels.



Dragonfire adepts have a similar ability as a lesser invocation, so there's precedent for it being higher-level.

Personally, I'd just get a Hat of Disguise.
Sure. But somehow that's less satisfying. Still doable, but we are discussing warlock builds, not magic item layouts that anybody can have. Still, a good point; you can do this with any character with a modest investment of gp.

[AmberVael]

I can't think of magic items which don't violate the "prevention" clause. Remember, you have to actually LOSE the Con. Naebarius lets you HEAL it afterwards. All the other means I've seen negate the loss. At best, there's a fluff attempt to say "no, no, the magic item pays it for you," but that's highly questionable, as you could make that argument about anything, and thus is a clear attempt to violate, rather than work around, the "cost must be paid" clause.

I'm pretty sure Troacctid was just saying to get a wand of restoration or maybe a rod of bodily restoration or something. I'm not aware of a magic item that reduces con damage - the common way to reduce ability damage (often brought up in discussion of hellfire warlock) is a soulmeld.

[Segev]

I'm pretty sure Troacctid was just saying to get a wand of restoration or maybe a rod of bodily restoration or something. I'm not aware of a magic item that reduces con damage - the common way to reduce ability damage (often brought up in discussion of hellfire warlock) is a soulmeld.

Ah, fair enough. Yeah, at that point it's a question of whether it's worth X charges of a wand or whathaveyou per blast. (Where "X" could be a fractional number.)

[Snowbluff]

I vouch for strong heart vest soulbind for HFW, if needed. The FAQ blatantly didn't read the text of Strongheart Vest, or opted to change a rule rather than clarify one. And that's why Pathfinder is garbage. :p

[AmberVael]

Ah, fair enough. Yeah, at that point it's a question of whether it's worth X charges of a wand or whathaveyou per blast. (Where "X" could be a fractional number.)

I think Rod of Bodily Restoration is well worth it for a hellfire warlock. It can heal up to 12 con damage in a day, and it only costs 3,100 gold. Plus you can use it to heal other ability damage if you need to. If you're less efficient, it can even be a viable option in combat.

[Segev]

I vouch for strong heart vest soulbind for HFW, if needed. The FAQ blatantly didn't read the text of Strongheart Vest, or opted to change a rule rather than clarify one. And that's why Pathfinder is garbage. :p

...3.5, I think you mean?

I still argue that it's, at best, gray territory, since Strong Heart Vest's mechanics say it prevents you from taking the con damage; to truly, by the RAW, work around the restriction in HFW, you'd have to have it say something like it gives you a temporary point of Con, which you lose first, each time you're exposed to a con-reducing effect.

[AmberVael]

...3.5, I think you mean?

I still argue that it's, at best, gray territory, since Strong Heart Vest's mechanics say it prevents you from taking the con damage; to truly, by the RAW, work around the restriction in HFW, you'd have to have it say something like it gives you a temporary point of Con, which you lose first, each time you're exposed to a con-reducing effect.

Strongheart Vest does not say it prevents you from taking con damage. It reduces incoming damage to a minimum of 0.
For what its worth, I think Strongheart Vest works. But this is well trod ground that never seems to get resolved, and its not terribly relevant to the thread, so its probably not worth it to rehash the old argument here.

[Tiri]

Do you have any citation that indicates that warlocks are not arcane? Because it seems to me that there is a preponderance of textual evidence saying that they are

Before I provide a citation so support my stance, I'd just like to point out that firstly, the quotes describing warlocks as arcane spellcasters are simply wrong, because to be a spellcaster you need to cast spell which is something warlocks cannot do. Therefore, those can be discounted as any kind of evidence suggesting warlocks should have a arcane caster level.

Additionally, describing the warlock's powers as arcane in flavour text does not automatically mean his spell-like abilities are arcane. Arcane could simply be meant in the sense that a warlock's powers are mysterious, which they are, at least as much as any actual arcane spellcaster.

So, let's get to the citations:

Some creatures are born with the capacity to work genuine
magic, just like some creatures have the power of flight or the
ability to breathe water. Such creatures have no explainable
awareness of how they actually manage their magical talents.
They have no special ability to sense magic, and they don't do
anything special to work their magic beyond willing their
magical tricks to happen. Such creatures seem to function as
self-filling vessels for magical power. They naturally collect
magical potential and release it with a thought.
This magical potential doesn't seem to have any clear link
either to arcane magic or to divine magic, though it creates
results similar or identical to those arising from spells. A
glabrezu's dispel magic ability functions like the same spell
cast by a wizard or cleric (hence the term “spell-like”).
A few magical theorists even claim that the “spells” of a
sorcerer or a dragon have more in common with the spell-like
abilities of warlocks and various other creatures than
with the spells of a wizard. These individuals suggest that
an entire third category of magic (called, for lack of a better
term, “innate” magic) would better describe those who wield
magic without relying on either traditional learning or a
divine source. So far, this theory has gained little traction
among traditional sages.


Though the warlock is described as an arcane character, his
powers function very differently from those of the various
arcane spellcasters in D&D.


As you can see, the text above shows that spell-like abilities are neither arcane nor divine, backing up the SRD, which does not specify them as being either. It then goes on to state that warlocks' abilities are spell-like abilities, without differentiating in any way the spell-like abilities of a warlock in any way from any other creature's spell-like abilities.

Then, we have the text admit that although the warlock is described as arcane, it does not mean the same thing in his case as it does for arcane spellcasters, who you should note are presented as a separate group in the quote. This is in keeping with their having spell-like abilities which, although they might be arcane in the English sense of the word (English is what they use to write the flavour text, after all), are not arcane in D&D terms.

As for the prestige classes requiring an arcane spellcaster level? Well, that's just more evidence that WoTC is bad at following their own game's rules. Any sane DM would, of course, likely allow a warlock to qualify, but that doesn't mean they can by RAW.

[Troacctid]

Then, we have the text admit that although the warlock is described as arcane, it does not mean the same thing in his case as it does for arcane spellcasters, who you should note are presented as a separate group in the quote. This is in keeping with their having spell-like abilities which, although they might be arcane in the English sense of the word (English is what they use to write the flavour text, after all), are not arcane in D&D terms.
That's stretching a lot in order to reach a dysfunctional conclusion. Especially since you're relying on a secondary source contradicting a primary source (and not even unambiguously contradicting it), which isn't how book and topic precedence work. (Complete Arcane is the primary source for the warlock class, so in the event of a rules conflict, it takes precedence over other sources.)

Anyway tl;dr you're wrong.

[Virdish]

Complete arcane lays out that yes warlocks have an arcane caster level. An invocation that mimics a spell counts as that spell for prereqs and if a prestige class advances arcane caster level it adds to invocation casting. For most purposes yes, warlocks are in fact arcane casters.

[Tiri]

Where does Complete Arcane state that warlocks have an arcane caster level? If anyone can point out a single sentence in the book that explicitly states that warlocks have an arcane caster level, instead of using the default rules for spell-like abilities, then I'll be persuaded.

The most persuasive piece of evidence for the 'warlocks have an arcane caster level' argument in Complete Arcane I could find is that classes that increase arcane spellcasting capability increase a warlock's invocation progression, but that doesn't actually state that warlocks have an arcane caster level, it's just a special way warlocks interact with classes like that.


That's stretching a lot in order to reach a dysfunctional conclusion. Especially since you're relying on a secondary source contradicting a primary source (and not even unambiguously contradicting it), which isn't how book and topic precedence work. (Complete Arcane is the primary source for the warlock class, so in the event of a rules conflict, it takes precedence over other sources.)


Guess what? The SRD is the primary source for spell-like abilities, and it states that they are not spells. Only spells are arcane or divine. Not spell-like abilities.

Just saying that I'm wrong does not actually make me wrong, Troaactid.

[Virdish]

Warlocks benefit in a specific way from prestige classes that have “+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class” or “+1 level of existing spellcasting class” as a level advancement benefi t. A warlock taking levels in such a prestige class does not gain any of his class abilities, but he does gain an increased caster level when using his invocations and increased damage with his eldritch blast. Levels of prestige classes that provide +1 level of spellcasting effectively stack with the warlock’s level to determine his eldritch blast damage (treat his combined caster level as his warlock class level when looking at Table 1–1: The Warlock to determine eldritch blast damage) and his eldritch blast caster level (half his total caster level from his warlock levels and his levels in the prestige class that grant him an increased spellcasting level). A warlock also gains new invocations known at these prestige class levels as though he had gained a level in the warlock class. A warlock cannot qualify for prestige classes with spellcasting level requirements, as he never actually learns to cast spells. However, prestige classes with caster level requirements, such as the acolyte of the skin, are well suited to the warlock. A warlock’s caster level for his invocations fulfills this requirement. See page 71 in Chapter 3 for more details on caster level requirements, spellcasting level requirements, and specifi c spell requirements for feats and prestige classe

In the context of a feat or a prestige class requirement, a caster level prerequisite (such as “caster level 5th”) measures the character’s ability to channel a minimum amount of magical power. For feats or prestige classes requiring a minimum caster level, creatures that use spell-like abilities or invocations instead of spells use either their fixed caster level or their class level to determine qualification. For example, Craft Wondrous Item has a requirement of caster level 3rd, so both a 3rd-level warlock and a nixie (caster level 4th for its charm person spell-like ability) meet the requirement.

So since the Warlock has a caster level then he must have either a divine or arcane caster level. Since every other mention of warlocks refers to them as arcane then it is safe to assume that yes indeed he is an arcane caster. To figure otherwise would be to call him a divine caster which is simply ridiculous. Should they have been a little more clear? Yes! Maybe a case can be made that RAW they are not (Though I disagree but that is not the point) but RAI they most definitely are. Your only argument is that they never said the words arcane caster level. It's a bit pedantic.

[Tiri]

So since the Warlock has a caster level then he must have either a divine or arcane caster level.

You can have an caster level that is neither arcane nor divine. It happens when you possess spell-like abilities, which have a caster level but are neither arcane nor divine. Like the nixie Complete Arcane mentions.

Warlock invocations are spell-like abilities.

[Troacctid]

Me saying you're wrong doesn't make you wrong. You being wrong makes you wrong. :smallwink:

Anyway, I gave you like a zillion citations already. Several prestige classes intended for warlocks have arcane caster level requirements that go out of their way to say they can be met by spell-like abilities, for example.

Hey, maybe you can point out a sentence that says any class has an arcane caster level or a divine caster level. I haven't looked, but I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't one even for wizards or clerics.

[Tiri]

Me saying you're wrong doesn't make you wrong. You being wrong makes you wrong. :smallwink:

Anyway, I gave you like a zillion citations already. Several prestige classes intended for warlocks have arcane caster level requirements that go out of their way to say they can be met by spell-like abilities, for example.

Hey, maybe you can point out a sentence that says any class has an arcane caster level or a divine caster level. I haven't looked, but I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't one even for wizards or clerics.


Well, wizards and clerics are called out as casting a specific type of spell. A person who casts arcane spells has an arcane caster level. A person who uses spell-like abilities does not.

As for the PrC's for warlocks that have an arcane caster level requirement they simply weren't written well. Other PrC's for warlocks don't have them. Acolyte of the Skin, for example.

[Troacctid]

Acolyte of the Skin doesn't specify an arcane caster level requirement because it isn't specific to arcane casters. It can advance any kind of casting. The others only advance arcane casting.

[Tiri]

Acolyte of the Skin doesn't specify an arcane caster level requirement because it isn't specific to arcane casters. It can advance any kind of casting. The others only advance arcane casting.

Yes, but it's still one of the classes you listed as recommended for warlocks.

Anyway, I think this argument is pointless. No matter who is actually right, I doubt either of us will be able to convince the other that their stance is incorrect. So, let's just stop.

[Snowbluff]

...3.5, I think you mean?

I still argue that it's, at best, gray territory, since Strong Heart Vest's mechanics say it prevents you from taking the con damage; to truly, by the RAW, work around the restriction in HFW, you'd have to have it say something like it gives you a temporary point of Con, which you lose first, each time you're exposed to a con-reducing effect.
First of all.

This statement:
Because the diabolical forces behind the power of hellfire demand part of your essence in exchange for this granted power, if you do not have a Constitution score or are somehow immune to Constitution damage, you cannot use this ability.

The operating part is
if you do not have a Constitution score or are somehow immune to Constitution damage, you cannot use this ability.

Splitting the statement by the or:
if you do not have a Constitution score, you cannot use this ability.
if you somehow immune to Constitution damage, you cannot use this ability.

Now the second statement does not say "this constitution damage." It says generally "Constitution damage." There's no room for interpretation. If you are not completely immune to all constitution damage, the statement doesn't carry through.

If you're wondering why the vest works even though the FAQ says no, it's because Hellfire Blast is an attack. It's just the FAQ writers did not read Strongheart Vest, Hellfire Warlock, or RTFM. It's ridiculous, and blatant revisionism, which is why the Pathfinder FAQ sucks. I was just making fun of a problem pathfinder has because this worthless FAQ reminded me of it. :smalltongue:



Strongheart Vest does not say it prevents you from taking con damage. It reduces incoming damage to a minimum of 0.
For what its worth, I think Strongheart Vest works. But this is well trod ground that never seems to get resolved, and its not terribly relevant to the thread, so its probably not worth it to rehash the old argument here. I studied the arguments and all of them are so flat that I can't even fathom any reasoning beyond that people didn't look at it closely. I've had enough nonsense about warlock propagated, and I am definitively putting my foot down.

[Rijan_Sai]

Yes, but it's still one of the classes you listed as recommended for warlocks.

Anyway, I think this argument is pointless. No matter who is actually right, I doubt either of us will be able to convince the other that their stance is incorrect. So, let's just stop.

Stopping is good, but I do have one last question regarding the "arcane or not" debate:


Spell-Like Abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) (Sp)

Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.

A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell:

Using a spell-like ability while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a Concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and to being dispelled by dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated.

A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A spell-like ability that can be used at will has no use limit.

For creatures with spell-like abilities, a designated caster level defines how difficult it is to dispel their spell-like effects and to define any level-dependent variables (such as range and duration) the abilities might have. The creature’s caster level never affects which spell-like abilities the creature has; sometimes the given caster level is lower than the level a spellcasting character would need to cast the spell of the same name. If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is:


10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature’s Cha modifier.

Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.

Some creatures are actually sorcerers of a sort. They cast arcane spells as sorcerers do, using components when required. In fact, an individual creature could have some spell-like abilities and also cast other spells as a sorcerer.

One line bolded for reference...

Now then:

Because the somatic components required for warlock invocations are relatively simple, a warlock can use any of his invocations while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. However, like arcane spellcasters, a warlock wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure (all invocations, including eldritch blast, have a somatic component).
More self-bolding.

How do you rectify your staunch adherence to "Spell-like Ability SRD RAW" without acknowledging that invocations are different and have their own rules, and thus, are arcane because the rules governing invocations state they are arcane?

[Segev]

Complete Arcane's been cited multiple times where it states that Warlocks can use their Warlock caster level to qualify for PrCs and feats. If anything, the "but it doesn't say they're ARCANE caster levels!" line would more easily twist this to allow Warlocks to qualify for divine AND arcane CL prerequisites.

I don't think that holds water, mind, but it's at least as logical as the idea that Warlocks can't qualify for arcane CL prereqs.

[Tiri]

How do you rectify your staunch adherence to "Spell-like Ability SRD RAW" without acknowledging that invocations are different and have their own rules, and thus, are arcane because the rules governing invocations state they are arcane?

Invocations are subject to arcane spell failure chance because they have somatic components. That is one specific deviation from the default rules. However, they are still spell-like abilities and for all other aspects of their functioning they should use the normal rules for spell-like abilities. Also, never do the rules say 'invocations are arcane'. They indicate in some instances that invocations were intended to be arcane, but that doesn't mean they are.


Complete Arcane's been cited multiple times where it states that Warlocks can use their Warlock caster level to qualify for PrCs and feats. If anything, the "but it doesn't say they're ARCANE caster levels!" line would more easily twist this to allow Warlocks to qualify for divine AND arcane CL prerequisites.

I don't think that holds water, mind, but it's at least as logical as the idea that Warlocks can't qualify for arcane CL prereqs.

It's less logical because it is possible to have a caster level that is not arcane or divine, in the case of spell-like abilities. A creature with a spell-like ability caster level would no more be able to qualify for a requirement involving arcane caster levels than one with a divine caster level, and vice versa.

[SilverDirewolf]

Ok, enough is enough! :smallsigh:

Lets go back to the FOCUS of this forum please. :smallwink:

I have decided to go with Hellborn Human as my Race. This seems to fit what I want to do Perfectly and my overall image of my character.

My DM suggested it as well as the fact that Hellborn can indeed be resurrected which is directly stated in their description (which surprised even him).

Also he said it would be fine that I have an Imp and that I am lawful neutral trying to save my soul from damnation fits perfectly and the Imp is there to watch over my soul and see that I don't go "good" on my patron, however I have another "patron" who is working to redeem my soul and I am trying to redeem my imp and during our brief time together he is doing "good" works (unannounced to him of course) and that he will eventually be neutral aligned as well.

So now I am trying to decide on which build to go with. Totally checking out the "healing" blast ideas, that would be a nice flavor to add and it seems we may be a bit short on healers.

[Troacctid]

Hellbred is a funny race—it's actually quite weak at low levels, but it gets pretty strong at high levels. I think you found the right game for it, though: if you get resurrected for free every day, the penalty to Constitution doesn't sting as much as it usually would.

[Inevitability]

Hellbred is a funny race—it's actually quite weak at low levels, but it gets pretty strong at high levels. I think you found the right game for it, though: if you get resurrected for free every day, the penalty to Constitution doesn't sting as much as it usually would.

Assuming you can get resurrected at all. Escaped soul damned to Hell everlasting, and all that.

[SilverDirewolf]

Assuming you can get resurrected at all. Escaped soul damned to Hell everlasting, and all that.

Under Racial Traits

"Hellbound (Su): A devil has a claim on a hellbred’s soul. As a result, a hellbred can be restored to life only by a resurrection spell or greater magic."

I would think that being in Asgard would qualify as "greater magic." :smallwink:

Exploring Snowbluff's build:

Sorcerer4/Warlock1/Eldritch Disciple10
H) Least Dragon Mark
Otyugh HOle) Iron Will
1) Mark of the Dauntless
3) Reserves of Strength
6) Versatile Spellcaster
9) Practiced Spellcaster: Warlock
12) Empower Spell
15) Rapid Metamagic
Just blast with your class features to combine eldritch blast and area spells. Has a familiar, that you can hide with Familiar pocket. Maybe take a flaw for improved familiar and Minor Shapeshift (good bonus HP)

I would like to incorporate some healing with the familiar idea... So I guess I will need two builds... one that assumes he will automatically give me the feats for familiar since it is built into my backstory he is known to do awesome stuff like that. :smallsmile:

Need to work some healing into this build and drag to 20 as I understand we will be leveling rather rapidly. Also without the familiar needs. Thank you guys! You have all given me so much knowledge I am truly grateful!

Here are the stats we have to work with from my rolls: 13,14,17,11,12,17 Con gets a +2 and Int gets a -2 (racial) What to put where! :)

[Troacctid]

I don't think Hellbred can have dragonmarks.

[SilverDirewolf]

I don't think Hellbred can have dragonmarks.

Ya the build needs help since I have declared the Hellbred as the chosen race, when she first posted the build I had not decided yet on what to take.

Also is the order that is on the sheet the order that I would make the build?

[Troacctid]

I think it may actually have Eldritch Disciple mixed up with Eldritch Theurge. Disciple is divine, Theurge is arcane. You need 3 levels of warlock for Eldritch Theurge because it requires eldritch blast 2d6. However, you only need 1 level of warlock for Eldritch Disciple, because it only asks for least invocations.

You could ask your DM if you can use a chasuble of fell power to qualify for Eldritch Theurge with only 1 warlock level, but if you can't afford one of those, it's a moot point. (8000 gp is expensive at your level.)

What about Sha'ir? It works with Eldritch Disciple and Theurge, since it's both arcane and divine, and it's Charisma-based and has a better spell progression than the sorcerer, so it's a pretty synergistic class.

[SilverDirewolf]

My advice mirrors Snowbluff's. (Long time, no see!)

You probably won't keep up in damage with a non-Hellfire Warlock build if the party is higher-op, so don't focus on damage. Get an essence or two that allows you to debuff enemies in hilarious ways, and a shape that lets you multi-target. Deliver the junk mail through debuff spamming. You can grab a rod or two in place of Eldritch shapes you're not comfortable wasting invocation slots on (Spear, Chain, and Cone are probably the best of each tier to buy a rod for, but in order of usefulness, I'd probably rank Chain as the most cost-efficient). Grab Chilling Tentacles when you can for superme battlefield debuffing.

Eldritch Disciple eats a few Warlock levels, but fits the divine flavor, gets you no shortage of Cleric spells to chew on, and some useful theurgic abilities. Eldritch Theurge is the same, but for arcane, and lets you take a damage role without HFW.

My favorite thing to do with Warlock is still "be Chameleon", but this is limiting on the basis of race. It also doesn't seem to fit your stated goals here.

Definitely checking into the Disciple and Theurge angles... like those alot as well. The debuff is great as well, I do like funny! Also how does Chameleon fit into it all, never used that class.

[Segev]

Chameleon doesn't really synergize well with much of anything, because it is more a jack-of-any-trade class in and of itself, and thus builds its own thing up. Warlock is an okay-ish choice to go with it, but not great. Pick a good, all-purpose, utility set of invocations that can complement about any role, and it can work.

Personally, I wouldn't suggest chameleon for this setting at all. It really is at its best when you need to be able to fill any role within a day.

I also prefer combining it with Totemist or Incarnate, because the soulmelds can be swapped out to complement whatever your load-out as a Chameleon is that day.

[Troacctid]

Chameleon is decent for very high-level warlocks, because the floating feat is good for crafting with the 12th level ability and can be used for Extra Invocation on adventuring days. However, it is basically useless before like level 17+. Also, it requires a skill tax, which is super annoying on a class as skill-starved as the warlock.

[SilverDirewolf]

I think it may actually have Eldritch Disciple mixed up with Eldritch Theurge. Disciple is divine, Theurge is arcane. You need 3 levels of warlock for Eldritch Theurge because it requires eldritch blast 2d6. However, you only need 1 level of warlock for Eldritch Disciple, because it only asks for least invocations.

You could ask your DM if you can use a chasuble of fell power to qualify for Eldritch Theurge with only 1 warlock level, but if you can't afford one of those, it's a moot point. (8000 gp is expensive at your level.)

What about Sha'ir? It works with Eldritch Disciple and Theurge, since it's both arcane and divine, and it's Charisma-based and has a better spell progression than the sorcerer, so it's a pretty synergistic class.

WOW... Sha'ir looks WAY to complicated for a beginning caster.. lol Geesh that would make me like confused at everything I think. Just too much to keep track of.

And the 8000 GP is way more than I will have (2400 GP is all we get)

[Troacctid]

The sha'ir is weird. You don't prepare spells, and you don't cast them spontaneously. Instead you retrieve them. It takes a semirandom amount of time to retrieve a spell based on what type of spell it is (known spells can be retrieved in rounds, any unknown arcane spell that you have seen and identified with Spellcraft can be retrieved in minutes, and divine spells can be retrieved in hours). Retrieving a spell requires a Diplomacy check, and a retrieved spell lasts for one hour per sha'ir level before fading.

This actually works pretty well with warlock, because sometimes you run into a situation where you're like, "Whoops! I don't have a good spell retrieved for this situation!" Well, since you're a warlock, it's no problem: send your gen out to fetch the spell, and while it's gone, you can use your invocations instead.

[SilverDirewolf]

Ok... So Hellbred Eldritch Disciple it is!

Stats we have to work with are 13,14,15,13,12,17 (not too shabby!) Hellbred gets +2 Con and -2 INT racial (which are not yet reflected in those stats). I know we need WIS and CHA but will need some INT for knowledge and skills. Let me know what you think!

Still gotta figure out what to take as far as build and feats now. Do I go cleric first then warlock?
I see some requirements but also can be dropped for flair..

"Adaptation-
The most obvious alteration to the eldritch disciple is to drop the turn/rebuke undead requirement and provide a similar ability (usable only to activate gifts) at 1st level. While this removes some of the class's flavor, it does open the eldritch disciple to a wider range of druid/warlock or favored soul/warlock multiclass combinations. Alternatively, you might go to another extreme in a campaign, allowing only worshipers of one particular entity or group to become eldritch disciples."

How could that play into the build and how would I approach this to ask the DM? What ability would you ask for and would this bypass the Cleric levels needed or would you still need them? What think you? :smallconfused:

:smallbiggrin: Also we got the familiar hook taken care of... I just get one that is granted due to backstory!

feelin the crunch gotta have this all sorted out by this Sunday! :smallwink:

[Troacctid]

Ok... So Hellbred Eldritch Disciple it is!

Stats we have to work with are 13,14,15,13,12,17 (not too shabby!) Hellbred gets +2 Con and -2 INT racial (which are not yet reflected in those stats). I know we need WIS and CHA but will need some INT for knowledge and skills. Let me know what you think!
Oh, you're taking the body aspect? Hrmm, okay, that'll leave you a little strapped for skill points, but I guess you can at least mitigate that by going cloistered cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric).

Primary stats for a warlock are Dex, Int, and Cha. Primary stat for a cleric is Wis. Con is secondary for everyone. Str is a dump stat. As an Eldritch Disciple, your primary spellcasting ability (Wis) should be your highest score. You can afford a little less Int than other warlocks because you don't need Use Magic Device, but you still want a good score if possible. Cha determines warlock save DCs and turn undead uses, but you don't need it as much if you choose invocations that don't allow saving throws. Dex is used for eldritch blast, AC, and initiative.

For a Cleric/Warlock, I would go Wis > Dex > Con > Int > Cha > Str. With your rolls, I would also strongly recommend being middle-aged to even out the odd numbers.


Still gotta figure out what to take as far as build and feats now. Do I go cleric first then warlock?
You always want cloistered cleric as your 1st level to get the x4 skill points. After that, it doesn't matter as long as you get into the prestige class ASAP.


I see some requirements but also can be dropped for flair..

"Adaptation-
The most obvious alteration to the eldritch disciple is to drop the turn/rebuke undead requirement and provide a similar ability (usable only to activate gifts) at 1st level. While this removes some of the class's flavor, it does open the eldritch disciple to a wider range of druid/warlock or favored soul/warlock multiclass combinations. Alternatively, you might go to another extreme in a campaign, allowing only worshipers of one particular entity or group to become eldritch disciples."

How could that play into the build and how would I approach this to ask the DM? What ability would you ask for and would this bypass the Cleric levels needed or would you still need them? What think you? :smallconfused:
This would allow you to use a different class such as favored soul, spirit shaman, druid, or urban druid in place of cleric. The nice thing about this is that if you can use a class that scales off Cha, like favored soul, sha'ir, shugenja, or urban druid, then your ability scores will synergize better.

[SilverDirewolf]

For a Cleric/Warlock, I would go Wis > Dex > Con > Int > Cha > Str. With your rolls, I would also strongly recommend being middle-aged to even out the odd numbers.

How does that work?



You always want cloistered cleric as your 1st level to get the x4 skill points. After that, it doesn't matter as long as you get into the prestige class ASAP.

This would allow you to use a different class such as favored soul, spirit shaman, druid, or urban druid in place of cleric. The nice thing about this is that if you can use a class that scales off Cha, like favored soul, sha'ir, shugenja, or urban druid, then your ability scores will synergize better.

Which is better Cloistered Cleric or Favored Soul? Both have good application but the favored soul looks a bit better to me, what do you think??

Can you list a build so others can comment on it and we can get other's feelings? I think we are heading down the best track here! :smallbiggrin:

[Snowbluff]

Cleric is still a strong entry, purely because of how good turn undead is.

I would say don't dump str unless you're picking up weapon finesse for Eldritch glaive.

You can split wisdom and cha as long as you have the minimum wis to cast cleric spells. You can have cha be low if you avoid warlock invocations with a save.

Being middle aged drops physical stats by one each, and increases mental stats by one each, iirc

[SilverDirewolf]

Cleric is still a strong entry, purely because of how good turn undead is.
I would say don't dump str unless you're picking up weapon finesse for Eldritch glaive.
You can split wisdom and cha as long as you have the minimum wis to cast cleric spells. You can have cha be low if you avoid warlock invocations with a save.
Being middle aged drops physical stats by one each, and increases mental stats by one each, iirc

This build looks good but with more of the Favored Soul to play in. I want to do blasts and some healing and that should work. I am not concerned overly with turn undead because I'm not sure we will be using that too much or how it will work since we are all pretty much undead or all dead in Asgard. LOL I figured the Favored Soul would give the spontaneous casting part without having to waste too many feats for it. With Favored Soul I get weapon finesse for patron's weapon but I don't know what weapon that would be. However it is an interesting concept for close quarters fighting if necessary. What do you think?

SpontaenousCleric3/Warlock2/EldritchDisciple10
Domains: Trickery and Travel (Travel Devotion)
Other Feats:
H) Practiced Spellcaster Warlock
1) Chaos Devotion
3) Power Attack
6) Extend Spell
9) Persistent Spell
12) DMM Persistent
15) Extra Turning
Power Attack + Divine Power + Glaive. You can also use thise combo with Healing Blast to beat the crap out of heal a teammate.

[Troacctid]

Practiced Spellcaster is better on cleric than on warlock, because CL tends to matter more for spells than invocations.

[Snowbluff]

This build looks good but with more of the Favored Soul to play in. I want to do blasts and some healing and that should work. I am not concerned overly with turn undead because I'm not sure we will be using that too much or how it will work since we are all pretty much undead or all dead in Asgard. LOL I figured the Favored Soul would give the spontaneous casting part without having to waste too many feats for it. With Favored Soul I get weapon finesse for patron's weapon but I don't know what weapon that would be. However it is an interesting concept for close quarters fighting if necessary. What do you think?

SpontaenousCleric3/Warlock2/EldritchDisciple10
Domains: Trickery and Travel (Travel Devotion)
Other Feats:
H) Practiced Spellcaster Warlock
1) Chaos Devotion
3) Power Attack
6) Extend Spell
9) Persistent Spell
12) DMM Persistent
15) Extra Turning
Power Attack + Divine Power + Glaive. You can also use thise combo with Healing Blast to beat the crap out of heal a teammate.

You'll need your turn undead for fueling Divine Metamagic and Chaos Devotion.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm Use this rule on cleric instead of favored soul.

[Segev]

Chameleon is decent for very high-level warlocks, because the floating feat is good for crafting with the 12th level ability and can be used for Extra Invocation on adventuring days. However, it is basically useless before like level 17+. Also, it requires a skill tax, which is super annoying on a class as skill-starved as the warlock.
Ah, good point. Yes, the first level or two of Chameleon (whatever it takes to get the floating feat) can make a high-level Warlock a good item-crafter.


"Adaptation-
The most obvious alteration to the eldritch disciple is to drop the turn/rebuke undead requirement and provide a similar ability (usable only to activate gifts) at 1st level. While this removes some of the class's flavor, it does open the eldritch disciple to a wider range of druid/warlock or favored soul/warlock multiclass combinations. Alternatively, you might go to another extreme in a campaign, allowing only worshipers of one particular entity or group to become eldritch disciples."

I would keep the turn/rebuke, not only because of Chaos Devotion and Divine Metamagic (both of which are good!), but because, if you do go for the Eldrich Glaive Healing trick, I think you need Turn attempts to power Healing Blast. (I could be wrong, there, though; double-check it in the Eldrich Disciple class.)

Otherwise, sounds like you've got a pretty solid idea of what you want, here.

[Snowbluff]

I'll take that as a compliment. It is my build.

As for stats, it's best described in soft caps and requirements. To run that build, you need 13 str, 17 wis minimum. If you take weapon finesse (via finagling via flaw), you need at least 13 dex, by likely more to make it worth it, and if you don't want weapon finesse you'll need more str to improve you attack rating (power attack cuts it pretty hard).

Cha is needed for turn undead. Hypothetically, you need 16 for 2 uses to DMM persist and two additional uses of chaos devotion for a full day of combat. If you just stick with persisting only Divine power via DMM, you'd be dropping it down to 9. You start with 3, 4 more from extra turning, so 14 cha is enough.

[Troacctid]

I would keep the turn/rebuke, not only because of Chaos Devotion and Divine Metamagic (both of which are good!), but because, if you do go for the Eldrich Glaive Healing trick, I think you need Turn attempts to power Healing Blast. (I could be wrong, there, though; double-check it in the Eldrich Disciple class.)
The adaptation allows you to activate gifts without turn attempts.

[Segev]

I'll take that as a compliment. It is my build.Please do; no sleight is meant by any improper accreditation. My apologies for any such that has occurred.



Cha is needed for turn undead. Hypothetically, you need 16 for 2 uses to DMM persist and two additional uses of chaos devotion for a full day of combat. If you just stick with persisting only Divine power via DMM, you'd be dropping it down to 9. You start with 3, 4 more from extra turning, so 14 cha is enough.

It doesn't hurt that his Warlock invocations will benefit from Cha if they have any save DCs associated. You can also pump up your turn undead uses per day with Nightsticks, but I warn that there is controversy over how they work.

In my personal reading of it, they increase your number of allowed turns/day while you hold them; they do not (as others will assert) "contain" additional turns per day that get exhausted as they're used. So you can't pick up fresh ones to get +4 turns per stick. However, you can hold as many as you are able to simultaneously wield for 4 more turns/day per stick simultaneously wielded.

Normally, this could get you up to +8, if you have two hands. There are, of course, ways to increase this.

[Snowbluff]

Well the adaptation just isn't very helpful, as you can't boos your uses in any way other than cha (presumably 3+cha per day). Losing DMM persist is a lost, 5 bab on that build IIRC. That's an attack and 25% if you can't find a round to cast it on.

I think a reliquary holy symbol (gives 3 attempts with this build, iirc) and another 4 from a nightstick (no controversy from me, I've never argued over t or get compelled to buy a ton of nightsticks over other gear) would be a nice addition to the 2 I left floating for Chaos Devotion, for a total of 9 for that or your class features.

Btw, the frenzy ability is quite good for using the glaive.

Also, you have 7th level slots, so you can persist 1st level spells. Divine Favor for a +3 luck to hit, right?

[SilverDirewolf]

First off, never meant to take credit for Snowbluff's build, I was just copy and paste so we could comment on it! Sorry Snowbluff... Truly everyone here should KNOW I sure didn't come up with something like that as I have no clue (which is why I am here). :smallcool:


Please do; no sleight is meant by any improper accreditation. My apologies for any such that has occurred.


I think a reliquary holy symbol (gives 3 attempts with this build, iirc) and another 4 from a nightstick (no controversy from me, I've never argued over t or get compelled to buy a ton of nightsticks over other gear) would be a nice addition to the 2 I left floating for Chaos Devotion, for a total of 9 for that or your class features.

Btw, the frenzy ability is quite good for using the glaive.

Also, you have 7th level slots, so you can persist 1st level spells. Divine Favor for a +3 luck to hit, right?

How and when would you acquire the "Frenzy ability." We are starting with 2400 GP, and at 3rd level. So We will do the build you have Snowbluff. However here are my stats, how would you all arrange them for this? 13 14 15 13 12 17 That is what was rolled. Don't know about stat increases to 3rd level but Racial I have +2 con and - 2 int to figure in as well. :smallsmile: What spells would be best to take for the Domains? (I get 3 at 3rd Level). In the build you put a "H" in front of Practiced Spellcaster Warlock, what does that mean? You guys have been great thanks so much for all your help!! And I don't care about weapon finesse it was just something that came with the now defunct favored soul build idea. And if you haven't had a chance yet to check out some of the Hellbred feats check those out as well! TY :smallsmile:

[Snowbluff]

Practiced spellcaster was meant to be taken as a human bonus feat. I marked it with "H)" in my build to note that.

I generally favor Trickery ( couple of good sneaking and defensive spells) and travel (which you can trade in for Travel Devotion) for this sort of build. YOu can also grab Chaos and trade it in for Chaos Devotion. For domains I like using, I like Illusion (basically spells that are illusion) and Hunger (paralysis spells and negative levels), as well as Suffering (lots of debuffs).

Wild Frenzy is an option you can take with Eldritch Disciple. It give bonus attack, damage, and temporary HP.

Much like your domains you pick, your stats will be a playstyle choice. If you pick up Suffering and/or Hunger, you'll want that 17 in Wis for your spell DCs. If you avoid spells with saves such as using the illusion domain or trickery domain, you don't need a whole lot of wis.

For High Wis (with racial bonus):
13 13 17 10 17 14
For Lower Wis:
13 13 19 10 15 14

Or if you're going middle aged (subtract one from all physical scored, add one to each mental score), and need high wis , your starting stats will be:
13 12 16 10 18 14

Hellbred Feats: Devil's Sight and Devil's Stamina seem pretty good.

[SilverDirewolf]

Practiced spellcaster was meant to be taken as a human bonus feat. I marked it with "H)" in my build to note that.
I generally favor Trickery ( couple of good sneaking and defensive spells) and travel (which you can trade in for Travel Devotion) for this sort of build. YOu can also grab Chaos and trade it in for Chaos Devotion. For domains I like using, I like Illusion (basically spells that are illusion) and Hunger (paralysis spells and negative levels), as well as Suffering (lots of debuffs).
Wild Frenzy is an option you can take with Eldritch Disciple. It give bonus attack, damage, and temporary HP.
Much like your domains you pick, your stats will be a playstyle choice. If you pick up Suffering and/or Hunger, you'll want that 17 in Wis for your spell DCs. If you avoid spells with saves such as using the illusion domain or trickery domain, you don't need a whole lot of wis.
For High Wis (with racial bonus):
13 13 17 10 17 14
For Lower Wis:
13 13 19 10 15 14
Or if you're going middle aged (subtract one from all physical scored, add one to each mental score), and need high wis , your starting stats will be:
13 12 16 10 18 14
Hellbred Feats: Devil's Sight and Devil's Stamina seem pretty good.

Don't you get Devil's Sight for being a Warlock? So what I am understanding here is that I can still pick up domains even after I become a Eldritch Disciple? I guess I'm still not sure how those two play out together! I will do more research today. And if I see correctly the high CHA for the Warlock doesn't really play into it as you are really focusing on Cleric build material? Sorry to be such a pain but like I said this is my first spellcaster! lol You have been great and I think you for all the time and effort you are doing to help me. If you would like to chat about this (I know I would) I have skype and discord. I will be available this weekend on Saturday most of the day and night. I am on MDT (Colorado) so don't know how that fits into your schedule but all this typing makes my head go crazy and I can't seem to ask everything i want to or it would be a book. :smallbiggrin: Just need to get this ironed out to level three for this Sunday. After that I have plenty of time to get the rest of the questions in but would be much easier to talk!

[SilverDirewolf]

Here is the list of spells and domains... what do you think?

Ok so I get 5 of the 0 level spells, was thinking:
Read magic
Cure Minor Wounds
Detect Poison
Guidance
Create Water

I get 3 of the 1 level spells
Cure Light Wounds
Comprehend Languages
Command

Level 2 I only get domain
Trickery - Invisibility

Then I have the domain spells
Starting with the Trickery and Travel Devotion
Travel - Freedom of movement skill and Travel Devotion
Trickery - Disguise Self

When would I take the Chaos domain? I never do much with feats because I never know when your supposed to get them lol

[SilverDirewolf]

Ok, so we are just about to level 3 and I will be taking my very first Warlock level. The DM changed his mind and is making me take the Familiar feats to obtain my Imp familiar. How would this change the current progression of the planned path?

Currently Cleric 2

[Troacctid]

Take Obtain Familiar when you have a caster level of 3, and Improved Familiar when you have a caster level of 7.

[Particle_Man]

Since you are your familiar are trying to corrupt/redeem each other in a sneaky fashion, I would advise you to max out your bluff and sense motive skills, if possible (I know the warlock is skill-starved, so it may not be possible).

[Gruftzwerg]

I would suggest a dirty lil Dragonwrought Kobold (feat) as race for fluff and for defensive reasons. Be the untouchable pain in the back of your enemies^^.

Regular Kobolds already have some nice AC boosts. + Dex, + small size (may count as tiny size due to web enhancement = +2 AC).

DWK (feat) gives you +3 on mental stats (due to age) and immunity to paralysis and sleep which is nice to have imho.

Make the Draconic Rite of the Passage (costs 100g) and take a 1st lvl spell as 1/day SLA. Take "Enlarge Person" for your melee charger / meat shield party member. Gives extra damage for your teammate and he covers more space to hide behind for you. Identify would be a noncombat option to save money on Identify ( components, since the SLA don't require those).

suggested invocations:

least:
shatter - because it can be abused even on later levels (open doors/locks), disarm enemies ...)
spiderclimb - melee will have a hard time if you are fighting head over them.

lesser:
Flee the Scene - Very very versatile. Bypass doors/walls (with your teammates). Distract enemies while you escape. If a charger is in your group, stick to him and give him a better position for a charge every round. Flank an enemy by yourself^^ (flanking makes not much sense in this build besides from some roleplay jokes ;)
Walk Unseen - stay invisible all the time and be the stealthy dirty lil Kobold. Combined with Flee the Scene you are a high class infiltrator that will almost never be caught.
Charm - you are just a cute (dirty^^) lil Kobold and everybody loves you. nobody should think bad of the lil Kobold.
Voidsense (optional) - Depending on your setting Blindsense 30ft might be handy

greater:
Nightmares made real - a great crowd control spell with a great AoE. You teammates can focus the fools that can get out of it. Since (only) you can hide in plain sight in it, it further enhances your escape abilities.

The build works best with a melee charger. You start the fight invisible (cast it mornings and have it always on unless you attack something). Use your SLA Enlarge Person on your charger teammate. Than Spiderclimb and ride him. Use each round Flee the Scene to reposition the two of you, so the charger has a new target to charge. *enjoy&hf* ^^

[Troacctid]

I would suggest a dirty lil Dragonwrought Kobold (feat) as race for fluff and for defensive reasons. Be the untouchable pain in the back of your enemies^^.

Regular Kobolds already have some nice AC boosts. + Dex, + small size (may count as tiny size due to web enhancement = +2 AC).

DWK (feat) gives you +3 on mental stats (due to age) and immunity to paralysis and sleep which is nice to have imho.

Make the Draconic Rite of the Passage (costs 100g) and take a 1st lvl spell as 1/day SLA. Take "Enlarge Person" for your melee charger / meat shield party member. Gives extra damage for your teammate and he covers more space to hide behind for you. Identify would be a noncombat option to save money on Identify ( components, since the SLA don't require those).

suggested invocations:

least:
shatter - because it can be abused even on later levels (open doors/locks), disarm enemies ...)
spiderclimb - melee will have a hard time if you are fighting head over them.

lesser:
Flee the Scene - Very very versatile. Bypass doors/walls (with your teammates). Distract enemies while you escape. If a charger is in your group, stick to him and give him a better position for a charge every round. Flank an enemy by yourself^^ (flanking makes not much sense in this build besides from some roleplay jokes ;)
Walk Unseen - stay invisible all the time and be the stealthy dirty lil Kobold. Combined with Flee the Scene you are a high class infiltrator that will almost never be caught.
Charm - you are just a cute (dirty^^) lil Kobold and everybody loves you. nobody should think bad of the lil Kobold.
Voidsense (optional) - Depending on your setting Blindsense 30ft might be handy

greater:
Nightmares made real - a great crowd control spell with a great AoE. You teammates can focus the fools that can get out of it. Since (only) you can hide in plain sight in it, it further enhances your escape abilities.

The build works best with a melee charger. You start the fight invisible (cast it mornings and have it always on unless you attack something). Use your SLA Enlarge Person on your charger teammate. Than Spiderclimb and ride him. Use each round Flee the Scene to reposition the two of you, so the charger has a new target to charge. *enjoy&hf* ^^
OP is already locked into Hellbred. Also, Nightmares Made Real is mostly worse than Chilling Tentacles, Spider Climb helps with climbing, not riding, and Voidsense is like not even good.

If you want invocation suggestions, I have a thing (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-6a2WhKNXCSkbTXiocOklvsgNhCNKxgVdRGn-nhM_zs/).

[Gruftzwerg]

OP is already locked into Hellbred. Also, Nightmares Made Real is mostly worse than Chilling Tentacles, Spider Climb helps with climbing, not riding, and Voidsense is like not even good.

If you want invocation suggestions, I have a thing (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-6a2WhKNXCSkbTXiocOklvsgNhCNKxgVdRGn-nhM_zs/).

yeah saw that to late. didn't had the time to read the full post at that moment.

Nightmares Made Real and Chilling Tentacles are almost equal imho. It depends on the situation. NMR is better against enemies with high Str and low Wil save (most bigger monsters), while Chilling Tentacles has the upper hand against casters and enemies with low Str and Grapple checks.
Best you take both and make the lock on your enemies save.

And for the Spiderclimb part, it wasn't ment for riding (for that you need a ride check, IIRC 15 = 5 base + 5 unusual mount + 5 no saddle). It was purely meant to climb your "enlarged teammate" as lil Kobold ;)

Voidsense was optional. as said, depending on the campaign. Blindsense all day is nice if you fight a lot of invisible targets. Autodetect hidden enemies when you have line of effect, without any rolls is strong imho. (sure you need LoE but still strong).

edit: Voidsense also combos well with NMR. NMR gives concealment, but you still have line of effect to the enemies in there = voidsense works in NMR.
edit2: And when you know where they are, you could spam some kind of AoE, like Wall of Perilous Flame or Eldritch Cone.

[Troacctid]

Best you take both and make the lock on your enemies save.
You only get three greater invocations, so you cannot do this.


Voidsense was optional. as said, depending on the campaign. Blindsense all day is nice if you fight a lot of invisible targets. Autodetect hidden enemies when you have line of effect, without any rolls is strong imho. (sure you need LoE but still strong).
Not for a lesser invocation. Especially considering there's a least invocation that does like the same thing. There's no way any build would rather have Voidsense than something like Relentless Dispelling, Charm, Fell Flight, or The Dead Walk.

[Gruftzwerg]

You only get three greater invocations, so you cannot do this.
NMR, Chilling Tentacles & either cone shape or Wall of Perilous Flame. I don't see a problem here. + You could take Extra Invocation @18 for a 4th greater Invocation if really needed.



Not for a lesser invocation. Especially considering there's a least invocation that does like the same thing. There's no way any build would rather have Voidsense than something like Relentless Dispelling, Charm, Fell Flight, or The Dead Walk.

It helps against hidden enemies and magical darkness (incl NMR). Magical Darkness and Invisibility can be overcome by 2 separate least invocations, but neither of them can detect hidden enemies. as said OPTIONAL

[Troacctid]

NMR, Chilling Tentacles & either cone shape or Wall of Perilous Flame. I don't see a problem here. + You could take Extra Invocation @18 for a 4th greater Invocation if really needed.
Noxious Blast and Vitriolic Blast are extremely high-value greaters. Giving them up is a very significant cost. You're talking about picking a set of three invocations that all do basically the same thing—that's not good Warlock strategy.


It helps against hidden enemies and magical darkness (incl NMR). Magical Darkness and Invisibility can be overcome by 2 separate least invocations, but neither of them can detect hidden enemies.
Three, and yes they can. Just take Serpent's Tongue.


as said OPTIONAL
The fact that it exists as an option doesn't mean there exists a build that would ever want it over the other options. Witchwood Step is optional. Should you take it? No.

[Gruftzwerg]

Noxious Blast and Vitriolic Blast are extremely high-value greaters. Giving them up is a very significant cost. You're talking about picking a set of three invocations that all do the same thing—that's not good Warlock strategy.


Three, and yes they can.


The fact that it exists as an option doesn't mean there exists a build that would ever want it over the other options. Witchwood Step is optional. Should you take it? No.

IIRC the intention was not a DPS build, more of a supportive build.

I am sure that I will assist with damage but most of the party goes for damage so mostly assist in nature.

If the goal is to support, than you should be able to do it against all types of enemies > take NMR + Chilling Tentacles + AoE.

Voidsense isn't the most comfortable way to sense enemies, but it's still a reliable one in almost all situations compared to the others.

[Troacctid]

IIRC the intention was not a DPS build, more of a supportive build.
Which Noxious Blast is perfect for.


If the goal is to support, than you should be able to do it against all types of enemies > take NMR + Chilling Tentacles + AoE.
You only get three greater invocations. You can't afford redundancy. Pick one for BFC and do other things with the other ones.


Voidsense isn't the most comfortable way to sense enemies, but it's still a reliable one in almost all situations compared to the others.
There's no reason to spend a lesser invocation on an effect you can get from a least invocation.

[Gruftzwerg]

Which Noxious Blast is perfect for.
Looks better on paper than it is. It targets Toughness saves, which most Monsters (of the stronger fighter type) have absurd values in. It is more reliable against caster type of enemies who tend to have low Toughness Saves. And casters are already good covered by Chilling Tentacles. Noxious Blast is single target only or relies on blast shape to hit multiple targets. Chilling Tentacles covers enough area that 1 application is most of the time enough for all enemies.
Your enemies can be divided into two categories. Caster and non caster.
Caster tend to have low pysical scores and Toughness & Reflex Saves.
Noncaster have most of the time higher Toughness values and pysical ability scores.
Your crowd control should be able to affect both of em, but you picked 2 invocations that are better suited against casters.
I know Noxious Blast looks good and can be really strong in certain situations or builds, but in most cases it is overshadowed either by Chilling Tentacles (if caster) or NMR (non caster).




You only get three greater invocations. You can't afford redundancy. Pick one for BFC and do other things with the other ones.
the reason is explained above. if you wanna support you need to be able to do it against almost any enemy type. you need to cover casters & non casters.



There's no reason to spend a lesser invocation on an effect you can get from a least invocation.

With Voidsense you are able to fight invisible, (magical) concealed & hidden enemies with AoE. To cover the same versatile enemies, I would need to use "See the Unseen" and "Devil's Eye" and still wouldn't be able to detect hidden enemies.
Well, I guess at least I have a reason ;)

[Troacctid]

Looks better on paper than it is. It targets Toughness saves, which most Monsters (of the stronger fighter type) have absurd values in. It is more reliable against caster type of enemies who tend to have low Toughness Saves. And casters are already good covered by Chilling Tentacles. Noxious Blast is single target only or relies on blast shape to hit multiple targets. Chilling Tentacles covers enough area that 1 application is most of the time enough for all enemies.
Your enemies can be divided into two categories. Caster and non caster.
Caster tend to have low pysical scores and Toughness & Reflex Saves.
Noncaster have most of the time higher Toughness values and pysical ability scores.
Your crowd control should be able to affect both of em, but you picked 2 invocations that are better suited against casters.
I know Noxious Blast looks good and can be really strong in certain situations or builds, but in most cases it is overshadowed either by Chilling Tentacles (if caster) or NMR (non caster).
Fortitude saves are statistically about 2 points higher on average than Will saves. It's not that big a difference. Especially since Noxious Blast's save DC is naturally 2 points higher than Nightmares Made Real's.

And frankly, I don't care if the enemy needs to roll a 4 or less to fail, that's still like a 20% chance of insta-killing them on every single attack you make. That's absurd. What are you getting with Nightmares Made Real—like, an extra 10%, sometimes, if you're lucky? But instead of completely disabling the enemy for the entire duration of the fight, you just entangle them, giving them a few minor penalties to speed and die rolls. That's so much worse! Not to mention you only deal 1d6 damage if they fail the save, as opposed to Noxious Blast's full Eldritch Blast damage regardless of the save result.

See, the problem with Nightmares Made Real is that while yes, it targets Will, it's also so low-impact that you barely even care whether they make the save. It's more about blocking line of sight than anything else. Entangled is just not that great a debuff; it's about as good as shaken, and Frightful Blast is a least invocation (and even has a higher save DC than Nightmares Made Real if you're combining it with Eldritch Cone).

Furthermore, if you do really want to target Will, Devil's Whispers is right there. It offers a lot more raw power and does a much better job diversifying your invocation portfolio. Or, alternatively, Curse of Despair does some good work as well, as does Charm. There's even Voice of Madness and the aforementioned Frightful Blast as least invocations that can target Will.


With Voidsense you are able to fight invisible, (magical) concealed & hidden enemies with AoE. To cover the same versatile enemies, I would need to use "See the Unseen" and "Devil's Eye" and still wouldn't be able to detect hidden enemies.
Well, I guess at least I have a reason ;)
Or you could take Serpent's Tongue. Which exists. And auto-detects all hidden enemies at the same range as Voidsense. And is a least invocation.

[Gruftzwerg]

Fortitude saves are statistically about 2 points higher on average than Will saves. It's not that big a difference. Especially since Noxious Blast's save DC is naturally 2 points higher than Nightmares Made Real's.
on average.. but if you look at real values on certain levels (especially on the later lvls when you get this), the difference is much more than just 2 points. I see Monsters with absurd CON scores and therefore high Fortitude Saves, but I barely see enemies with same absurd high WIS scores and therefore high Will Saves. Fortitude is the worst Save DC to rely on (due to high Monster Con scores). And btw, NB has a base save DC of 16 while NMR has 15, so only 1 point naturally higher.


And frankly, I don't care if the enemy needs to roll a 4 or less to fail, that's still like a 20% chance of insta-killing them on every single attack you make. That's absurd. What are you getting with Nightmares Made Real—like, an extra 10%, sometimes, if you're lucky? But instead of completely disabling the enemy for the entire duration of the fight, you just entangle them, giving them a few minor penalties to speed and die rolls. That's so much worse! Not to mention you only deal 1d6 damage if they fail the save, as opposed to Noxious Blast's full Eldritch Blast damage regardless of the save result.

See, the problem with Nightmares Made Real is that while yes, it targets Will, it's also so low-impact that you barely even care whether they make the save. It's more about blocking line of sight than anything else. Entangled is just not that great a debuff; it's about as good as shaken, and Frightful Blast is a least invocation (and even has a higher save DC than Nightmares Made Real if you're combining it with Eldritch Cone).

Furthermore, if you do really want to target Will, Devil's Whispers is right there. It offers a lot more raw power and does a much better job diversifying your invocation portfolio. Or, alternatively, Curse of Despair does some good work as well, as does Charm. There's even Voice of Madness and the aforementioned Frightful Blast as least invocations that can target Will.

Noxious Blast targets the same category of enemies as Chilling Tentacles. Devil's Whisper is strong, but only targets a single enemy. And the low WIS type enemies tend to be the ones that "can" come in groups. Fights with dozens of high Fortitude and low Will Save enemies are common in most campaigns, while you barely face a bunch of high Will Save enemies (/casters).
NMR is stronger than you might think. the enemies are entangled and have no vision to you(r party). You can attack em with AoE thx due to Voidsense (if you took it). Otherwise stay out with your team and prepare actions when the fools come out of it. That's a huge tactical advantage.


Or you could take Serpent's Tongue. Which exists. And auto-detects all hidden enemies at the same range as Voidsense. And is a least invocation.

scent only tells you if something is in range or not. you need to be in 5ft range to pinpoint the location, so not really a great help if you wanna attack your enemies from the safety. Voidsense gives you the location in 30ft which is enough for some safe AoE usage.

[Troacctid]

on average.. but if you look at real values on certain levels (especially on the later lvls when you get this), the difference is much more than just 2 points. I see Monsters with absurd CON scores and therefore high Fortitude Saves, but I barely see enemies with same absurd high WIS scores and therefore high Will Saves. Fortitude is the worst Save DC to rely on (due to high Monster Con scores). And btw, NB has a base save DC of 16 while NMR has 15, so only 1 point naturally higher.



Noxious Blast targets the same category of enemies as Chilling Tentacles. Devil's Whisper is strong, but only targets a single enemy. And the low WIS type enemies tend to be the ones that "can" come in groups. Fights with dozens of high Fortitude and low Will Save enemies are common in most campaigns, while you barely face a bunch of high Will Save enemies (/casters).
NMR is stronger than you might think. the enemies are entangled and have no vision to you(r party). You can attack em with AoE thx due to Voidsense (if you took it). Otherwise stay out with your team and prepare actions when the fools come out of it. That's a huge tactical advantage.
It doesn't impede movement if they make the save, which means they can just walk right out of it unhindered. At least Chilling Tentacles makes the area into difficult terrain. Plus it entangles you and your allies too (because it hits anyone viewing the area regardless of location), so some support you are.

You know what else blocks sight? Obscuring mist, a 1st level spell that you can get as a wand for 750 gp. Or, if you want a greater invocation, Wall of Perilous Flame. Or if you want a lesser invocation, Wall of Gloom. (Although after the nerf to Wall of Gloom in the Spell Compendium, I probably wouldn't recommend it.)

I don't know how common it is to fight dozens of monsters with high Fortitude saves and low Will saves, but I do know that when you're fighting large amounts of creatures, they tend to be smaller creatures. It's pretty rare to fight a horde of Huge-size monsters. You know what's effective against small creatures? Grappling them. Like maybe with Chilling Tentacles.


scent only tells you if something is in range or not. you need to be in 5ft range to pinpoint the location, so not really a great help if you wanna attack your enemies from the safety. Voidsense gives you the location in 30ft which is enough for some safe AoE usage.
You can take a move action to pinpoint their direction.

[Gruftzwerg]

It doesn't impede movement if they make the save, which means they can just walk right out of it unhindered. At least Chilling Tentacles makes the area into difficult terrain. Plus it entangles you and your allies too (because it hits anyone viewing the area regardless of location), so some support you are.
Even if they make the save, the enemy vision is still blocked. They need to search for a way out or clear their vision before they can attack something.
And no, it won't affect my team, because: "Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with)"
You aren't affected by your own illusions (unless you want to..) and can auto disbelieve them. And "Will-disbelieve" can be communicated. You just need to make sure, your party members know your abilities well enough and you can even expect that you don't need to communicate it even further. If your party member have enough evidence of your abilities, they "know" (!) that it is an illusion. Either +4Rolls for your team, but with some talk to DM and some time you can expect that your team will soon be unaffected.
imho that should be a point for NMR. It's Chilling Tentacles that has full impact on your own teammates, not NMR, sry.



You know what else blocks sight? Obscuring mist, a 1st level spell that you can get as a wand for 750 gp. Or, if you want a greater invocation, Wall of Perilous Flame. Or if you want a lesser invocation, Wall of Gloom. (Although after the nerf to Wall of Gloom in the Spell Compendium, I probably wouldn't recommend it.)
The mentioned spells don't cover as much area as NMR does (which is important when you get bigger opponents in lager groups). Nor come they with some kind of crowd control. How many spells you wanna pull out in how many rounds to copy the effects of NMR? See where the problem in your assumption is?
Further you can't hide in plain sight in them. NMR is such a versatile and flexible spell that can be used in many situations in different ways.


I don't know how common it is to fight dozens of monsters with high Fortitude saves and low Will saves, but I do know that when you're fighting large amounts of creatures, they tend to be smaller creatures. It's pretty rare to fight a horde of Huge-size monsters. You know what's effective against small creatures? Grappling them. Like maybe with Chilling Tentacles.

as far as I know it's common: (e.g. most animals, giants, dragons, magical beasts, oozes, plants & vermin belong into this group)
- fighter type enemies are more common than caster types > more Fortitude than Will to expect
- most higher lvl enemies tend to have enormous Con scores, which is a further push on Fortitude Saves.
- it's not uncommon that above mentioned factors hit together
- fighter type enemies can come alone, in small packs or hordes.

the same can't be said about enemies with high Will Saves (in most regular campaigns).
- Will save is pushed by Wisdom, a stat that most enemies don't have (absurd) high values in it.
- it's rare to find enemies who have both, high base Will save and high Wisdom
- you'll almost never see this as sole type of enemy as a larger pack or horde (only mixed into fighter type packs and hordes).


You can take a move action to pinpoint their direction.

Just the mere direction won't help much here, imho. Especially if the enemies are struck for more than 1 round in it. Having the exact location is more comfortable for placing AoEs in "five 10-ft. cubes + one 10-ft. cube/level" than just the direction.