Options for Parrying?

[Palanan]

Does Pathfinder have any feats or other options related to parrying?

Ideally what I'd like is a feat which allows a swordsman to respond to an attack with another attack, but targeted on the incoming weapon. Is there a feat, class ability, etc. that would allow for this?

[AmericanCheese]

Swashbucklers get this pretty good deed at level one that allows them to do that. You can gain access to it on a few other characters through archetypes too, I think.

[KillingAScarab]

Does Pathfinder have any feats or other options related to parrying?

Ideally what I'd like is a feat which allows a swordsman to respond to an attack with another attack, but targeted on the incoming weapon. Is there a feat, class ability, etc. that would allow for this?You may fluff any miss against you (within reason) as having been blocked by your weapon. The counter-attack you want, though, is known as a riposte (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riposte). A search (https://www.google.com/search?q=site:d20pfsrd.com+riposte) by that term turns up quite a bit.

Side-note, if you ever play Neverwinter Nights, I recommend you avoid placing skill points in the parry skill BioWare added to that game. It's more likely to make you get hit like a chump than to make you look stylish.

[GreyBlack]

Swashbucklers get this pretty good deed at level one that allows them to do that. You can gain access to it on a few other characters through archetypes too, I think.

The problem with Swashbucklers is that they can only do it once per turn (costs a swift action). But yes, this is a good mechanical representation of what's being asked for.

[stanprollyright]

The problem with Swashbucklers is that they can only do it once per turn (costs a swift action). But yes, this is a good mechanical representation of what's being asked for.

The Riposte costs an immediate action, the parry itself costs an AoO. You can get Combat Reflexes for extra parries, but you can only counterattack on one of them.

[Ualaa]

The Crane Style, Crane Wing, and Crane Riposte feats essentially get you a parry/riposte.

The easiest method for this is with a level of monk.
If you take the archetype 'Master of Many Styles', you can take Crane Style initially.
Crane Wing can be taken with a second monk level, which adds a fair bit of abilities.

If you stop gaining the feats as a Monk, at least one level in monk would get you all of the pre-requisites for the chain, with the exception of Dodge.
Without monk, you'd also need Improved Unarmed Strike.

If you take the 1/2 levels of Monk, you need Dodge and a BAB of +9 to take the final feat (Crane Riposte).
You'll want Combat Reflexes in there somewhere.

Crane Style reduces the penalties for defensive fighting by -2 and increases the bonus by +1.
So you go from -4 (your attacks) for +2 (your dodge bonus to AC) to -2 for +3.

Three ranks in Acrobatics increases the defense bonus by an additional +1.
You don't need Crane Style for this.
But with Crane Style, you're now -2 (your attacks) for +4 to your AC.

Crane Wing raises your AC by an additional four points against melee attacks, but only until you're hit or would have been hit.
So if your AC while defensive fighting is 20.
With Crane Wing, you're considered to be 24, but an attack that either hits you or misses by four or less (ie, would have hit your AC 20, or 21-23, or is a hit against your new AC 24) ends the Crane Wing effect for that round.
On your turn, you can restart that as a free action provided you're fighting defensively.

Crane Riposte allows you to make an opportunity attack against anyone that either misses you, or causes your Crane Wing to discharge.
So if your AC is 20, and they hit AC 20, 21, 22, 23 (which means they miss you, but Crane Wing ends until the start of your next turn) you get your opportunity attack.
And if they fail to hit you entirely, that also gets your Riposte opportunity attack.

Naturally stacking AC and having a lot of opportunity attacks helps a lot.

If you're using Ultimate Psionics, check out the power Sidestep.
Buddy rolls a critical hit against you.
You expend 3 power points (level 2 power) and Sidestep as an immediate action, which means he now missed you.
Since he attacked and did not hit... you Riposte.



A duelist (the prestige class) can also Riposte.
But they don't get that until well into their build.
And they essentially sacrifice one of their attacks... if they're hit, they roll their sacrificed attack against the attack that hit them.
If they're high enough to hit the attack that would have hit them, they deflect it.

They get the Parry at a lower level and the Riposte at a higher one.

Duelist requires a one-handed piercing weapon, with the off-hand empty.
But it does add INT mod to damage and INT mod (limited to Duelist's level) to AC.
You get a bonus to Reflex saves and Initiative.
And there's a better Mobility, that stacks with Mobility.

I don't especially like Duelist on it's own.
But in a Gestalt game, with a Fort/Will class...
Full BAB, something decent from INT, and strong Reflex... is decent.

[Ualaa]

Crane Riposte also improves your AC by +1, when fighting defensively.
The requirement is BAB +8, not +9.

I got the 9 from having one or two Monk levels in the build, which puts a character a BAB point behind.

[Tuvarkz]

The Cut from the Air>Smash from the Air (Weapon Master's Handbook) feat line allows you to parry ranged attack.
Also, if 3pp is allowed, Path of War's counters offer plenty in that aspect.

[Kurald Galain]

Swashbucklers get this pretty good deed at level one that allows them to do that.

The Magus can obtain the same ability from the Flamboyant Arcana arcana.

[upho]

Crane Wing can be taken with a second monk level, which adds a fair bit of abilities.Nitpick, but no, a second level of MoMS monk won't give you Crane Wing, since it's not a (Style) feat. With the exception of the Wolf Style feat chain (which are all (Combat, Style) feats), only the first feat of style feat chains are (Style) feats. The following feats are simply (Combat) and can thus not be chosen as bonus feats by the MoMS monk.

Considering the Dodge prereq for Crane Wing, I probably wouldn't recommend it unless perhaps if you get Dodge for free from somewhere else. And Crane Style without Crane Wing is usually kinda weak.

[twilsemail]

It's also worthwhile to check out the Snake Style feat chain. The third feat allows you take an AoO whenever a foe misses you. This pairs splendidly with Opportune Parry and Riposte.

[Elricaltovilla]

I can think of at least 10+ options for parry/riposting if you're willing to step outside of 1st party material, but otherwise I think all the core stuff has been covered.

Maybe Panther Style as well with its counter attacks for missed AoOs against you.

[Aetis]

There is a feat called melee evasion from PHB2 that's kinda like parrying.

It's not very good though, so I suggest asking the DM to buff it if you gonna go that route.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Aetis
There is a feat called melee evasion from PHB2 that's kinda like parrying.

It's not very good though, so I suggest asking the DM to buff it if you gonna go that route.

I'm the DM, and I'm open to modifying the feat. What would you suggest?

[mistermysterio]

I can think of at least 10+ options for parry/riposting if you're willing to step outside of 1st party material, but otherwise I think all the core stuff has been covered.

Maybe Panther Style as well with its counter attacks for missed AoOs against you.

Plenty of things in Path of War that would serve this purpose... although it's third party

[Elricaltovilla]

Plenty of things in Path of War that would serve this purpose... although it's third party

People like you who say stuff like that to me make me laugh.

[AmericanCheese]

People like you who say stuff like that to me make me laugh.

psst


He's one of PoW's devs!

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Aetis
There is a feat called melee evasion….

Melee Evasion from PHB2 is almost exactly what I'm looking for.

Apart from the feat tax, which is steep for the benefit, what else about it isn't that good? And what could be done to make it better?

[Ualaa]

Nitpick, but no, a second level of MoMS monk won't give you Crane Wing, since it's not a (Style) feat. With the exception of the Wolf Style feat chain (which are all (Combat, Style) feats), only the first feat of style feat chains are (Style) feats. The following feats are simply (Combat) and can thus not be chosen as bonus feats by the MoMS monk.

Considering the Dodge prereq for Crane Wing, I probably wouldn't recommend it unless perhaps if you get Dodge for free from somewhere else. And Crane Style without Crane Wing is usually kinda weak.

Re-nitpick

From: Master of Many Styles (Archetype)
Ultimate Combat, page 59.



Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter, a master of many styles may select a bonus style feat or the Elemental Fist feat (Advanced Player's Guide 158). He does not need to meet the prerequisites of that feat, except the Elemental Fist feat. Alternatively, a master of many styles may choose a feat in that style's feat path such as Earth Child Topple) as one of those bonus feats if he already has the appropriate style feat (such as Earth Child style). The master of many styles does not need to meet any other prerequisite of the feat in the style's feat path. This ability replaces a monk's standard bonus feats.

(Bold Emphasis is mine)

Crane Wing and then Crane Riposte are the feat path of the Crane Style feat.
Ultimate Combat, page 86 for the table.
And each of the successive feats of a given style requires the Style of its' chain.

[Ualaa]

Crane Style and Crane Wing are precursors.

Crane Riposte is the feat which gives you a parry/riposte like effect.
I cannot think of a better one, given that you don't sacrifice any of your own attacks for the riposte.

In our last campaign, we had players with ACs in the lower 50s with Crane Riposte.
And with Combat Reflexes, they were able to take 5 opportunity attacks in a round, when their AC was missed.
That is very powerful, given they don't have to sacrifice any of their own attacks to get a number of Riposte actions.

If you're using Ultimate Psionics (Dreamscarred Press), which we were/are.
Ascetic Style, for a Psychic Warrior and Sidestep their level two power, both allow you to make an attack automatically miss.
There are a lot of counters within Path of War, that can make a hit into a miss (although PoW doesn't allow you to counter a natural 20).

We had a nasty reach melee guy (Warder/Psychic Warrior), who could cover a lot of the board with reach.
And his AC was very hard to hit.
Plus even when hit, he could negate a hit which would give the opportunity attack for being missed.

[upho]

Re-nitpick

From: Master of Many Styles (Archetype)
Ultimate Combat, page 59.



(Bold Emphasis is mine)

Crane Wing and then Crane Riposte are the feat path of the Crane Style feat.
Ultimate Combat, page 86 for the table.
And each of the successive feats of a given style requires the Style of its' chain.The errata nerf bat scored a hit here about a year ago! The current version (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/master-of-many-styles) reads (emphasis mine):

"At 1st level, 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter, a master of many styles may select a bonus style feat or the Elemental Fist feat. He does not need to meet the prerequisites of that feat, except the Elemental Fist feat. Starting at 6th level, a master of many styles can choose to instead gain a wildcard style slot. Whenever he enters one or more styles, he can spend his wildcard style slots to gain feats in those styles’ feat paths (such as Earth Child Topple) as long as he meets the prerequisites. Each time he changes styles, he can also change these wildcard style slots."

[AlmaPenzare]

Not sure if someones already said it but all counters in path of war are basically parries in one way ro another

[upho]

Crane Style and Crane Wing are precursors.

Crane Riposte is the feat which gives you a parry/riposte like effect.
I cannot think of a better one, given that you don't sacrifice any of your own attacks for the riposte.

In our last campaign, we had players with ACs in the lower 50s with Crane Riposte.
And with Combat Reflexes, they were able to take 5 opportunity attacks in a round, when their AC was missed.
That is very powerful, given they don't have to sacrifice any of their own attacks to get a number of Riposte actions.Yes, things can get very powerful if you ignore the rules... :smallwink: Crane Wing was limited to once per round. So definitely no "5 opportunity attacks in a round, when their AC was missed". (And you do indeed have to sacrifice your own attacks for the riposte. More specifically, one of your AoOs for the round.)

But more importantly, your group should probably check up Paizo's FAQ and errata more often, because the nerf bat scored a hit here as well, a long time ago! Crane Wing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/crane-wing-combat) and Crane Riposte (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/crane-riposte-combat) aren't nearly as good as they originally were:


Benefit: When fighting defensively with at least one hand free, you gain a +4 dodge bonus to AC against melee attacks. If a melee attack misses you by 4 or less, you lose this dodge bonus until the beginning of your next turn.

If you using the total defense action instead, you can deflect one melee attack that would normally hit you. An attack so deflected deals no damage and has no other effect (instead treat it as a miss). You do not expend an action when using this feat, but you must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed.


Benefit: You take only a –1 penalty on attack rolls for fighting defensively.

Whenever you deflect an opponent’s attack using Crane Wing or lose the dodge bonus from Crane Wing because an attack missed you by 4 or less, you can make an attack of opportunity against the attacker after the attack misses.

In addition, when you deflect an attack using Crane Wing while taking the total defense action, you may make an attack of opportunity against that opponent (even though you could not normally do so while taking the total defense action).So you have use the (very rarely worthwhile) total defense action to be able to deflect any attacks whatsoever, and if you're only fighting defensively, you need to get missed by less than 5 to trigger an AoO from Crane Riposte, and you still lose the dodge bonus from Wing.

Is this worth four feats and a hand which must be kept free? No, not IMO. And especially not if using PoW/PoW:E which has much greater options for truly surefire AoO triggers as well as parries.

[Ualaa]

Errata changes things, then.

They move from very strong for a melee class.
At least one built for defensive fighting...

To absolutely pointless to take.
Too many feats invested, for a very small gain.

[Palanan]

.

People. OP here.

Melee Evasion from PHB2 has been suggested. Apart from the feat tax, it does almost exactly what I want to do.

My question is, how could this be updated to Pathfinder, and improved if necessary?

.

[Aetis]

I would change it so that you make an actual attack roll to negate attack, instead of rolling a d20 + BAB.

[mistermysterio]

People like you who say stuff like that to me make me laugh.

Hah... I know that you are one of the Dev's for DSP. I meant the comment to be in agreement with what you said, directed at the OP. Sorry for the confusion :smallbiggrin:

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Aetis
I would change it so that you make an actual attack roll to negate attack, instead of rolling a d20 + BAB.

Interesting, thank you.

I'm assuming this is because the actual attack roll gives a much higher average than BAB alone. Makes so much sense I'm smacking myself for not having thought of it.

[Aetis]

Yup. Best of luck.

[upho]

Melee Evasion from PHB2 has been suggested. Apart from the feat tax, it does almost exactly what I want to do.Beside what Aetis mentioned, I'd also allow at least the Combat Expertise and Int 13 prereqs (maybe also Dodge) to be bypassed by Dirty Fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dirty-fighting-combat). And of course there would be no need for any target designation, since PF Dodge works against all creatures.

But this doesn't allow you to make a riposte. And I frankly don't think there are any good such options by Paizo. Well, unless you combine Melee Evasion with barb or primalist bloodrager 12 for Come and Get Me (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/come-and-get-me-ex), which could sorta give you a "riposte and parry" instead of the usual other way around...



Errata changes things, then.

They move from very strong for a melee class.
At least one built for defensive fighting...Well, I think at least during the earliest levels when it could be taken with the old version of MoMS it was very strong. AFAIK, this was also the reason primarily PFS people got upset and the errata happened. But in later levels (say 6+), considering the many feats required and the free hand and 1/round limitations, I'd say it was merely "good" (not "superb" or "great") even for builds focusing on defensive fighting. I think Crane Wing just stood out by being an actually defensive melee option by Paizo that didn't suck, and Crane Riposte could be made an unusually surefire AoO trigger 1/round. But neither were OP, at least not in a game with the current MoMS, which makes Crane Wing and Riposte inaccessible during the earliest levels.


To absolutely pointless to take.
Too many feats invested, for a very small gain.Well, I wouldn't go as far as "absolutely pointless", but surely close enough to not deserve your feat slots.