Keeping secrets in game

[Stryyke]

In my next campaign, magic is frowned upon by the general populace. In fact, in less civilized areas, people can be killed if they show any hint of magical ability. I would like to come up with a way for magic users to keep their magic even from other members of the group. My first inclination is to allow players to text me directly if they want to do something that they want to keep secret. I experimented with this, but I often find that too much of my time is occupied texting. Even with a keyboard, I feel I lose too much game-time. So I'm looking for possibilities for secret keeping; or if I should just make sure everyone understands that meta-game knowledge is not to be used in game. Thoughts?

[Freed]

I find that it is nice to keep some index cards at the table and pass notes. It prevents looking at your phone and you can play mind games by passing notes when you don't need to. If it is completely a secret you can always ask the other players to leave the room, but don't do this very often, and never for an extended period of time.

[Draconi Redfir]

maybe get them to write down each spell/magical ability they have onto individual notes and pass them to you in the order they wish to use them?

[Darth Ultron]

There really is no good, quick way to do this.

Even at the best of times, it will be a huge distraction. And at the worst times, it is horrible.

The only real way to go is the metagame way, where the players know everything...but the characters don't.

[Stryyke]

Yea. Index cards are fine for the occasional private message, but when they become a major form of communication, it starts to slow things down. I'm afraid Darth Ultron is correct, but I'm still open to other ideas.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Why is hiding this information from other players important to you? Examining your design goals is a good place to start.

[Stryyke]

Why is hiding this information from other players important to you? Examining your design goals is a good place to start.

In my experience, it's difficult for people with metaknowledge to respond appropriately in game. No one is suppose to know if their comrades can use magic or not; so you lose the impact of "the big reveal" when the group finds out for the first time. It's just an immersion thing. Not strictly vital, but if there are other ideas I haven't considered it might be worth my time to experiment.

[Draconi Redfir]

How many people have acess to phones, tablets, or laptops? Maybe you can set up a program like steam, skype, or some other instant messenger so people can send you written instructions under the guise of the both of you using the laptops to hold character sheets / other information.

[Stryyke]

I actually tried that. If it's one person, the occasional lapse in the game isn't too bad. And with lots and lots of experience, it may not be a big deal. Sadly if more than one person wants to use magic, I still find there is too much down-time. I even tried to get a co-dm to do the typing, so I only had to make a decision. That may be practical long term. Once the co-dm pretty much know how I would rule certain actions, they wouldn't even need to ask me unless it was a borderline call. If the character did a boost, he just wrote on a card something like "+1 att 30ft" or "+1 att/dmg fighter" or "haste all." But this campaign is going to be long, and I don't know that I could find a co-dm that will stick around for 5 years. College town. Everyone leaves for christmas, spring break, summer, and Thanksgiving.

[Hopeless]

It really should be the other way round as those living on the frontier have much more of a use for magic than those living in the big cities whose rulers (both noble born, religious, etc...) would want it controlled if not excessively punished as it poses a threat to their power.

What is the basis in your campaign?

One idea I had been thinking about was using Mongoose Publishings Legend and the Blood Magic book by explaining most of the magic was lost millennia ago with the few remaining able to wield it being either power mad despots or reclusive Gandalf or Elminster-like figures usually thought mythical.

The reason for the animosity is that blood magic being the best known involves blood sacrifice that of others so all magic has been tainted believed to be nothing more than the hideous blood magic with the game eventually revealing the truth behind this reputation and the fact the ones trying to keep it so are the ones using the foul form of magic to maintain their position and power!

Anyway back to the thread discussion!:smallredface:

[Stryyke]

The premise is that magic users of the past caused enormous devastation during a war many generations ago. The various nations got together and subdued or killed all that used magic. Over the generations using magic became taboo. Recently, a group of magic users formed an independent nation of magic users; but everywhere else, the taboo holds strong. In the cities, the sheer number of people helps to hide those that practice; but in rural areas, where people are extremely superstitious, hiding magic use is more difficult. Everyone knows everyone else. While each case is different, it's not unheard of for entire rural towns to hunt down and slaughter anyone they even suspect, whether they were practitioners or not.

That's not what the campaign is about, but it does factor into a lot of other things. The campaign itself is about an invasion of monsters from hell. As the campaign progresses, the world slowly comes to grips with the fact that someone will have to wield magic if the world hopes to survive. But the stigma will be present in the rural areas throughout the entire campaign.

This will be an extremely low magic campaign. There are only 100 or so magic items in the whole world, most of which no one knows what they do. And the PCs will all be human, though there are many cultures to choose from.

[Stealth Marmot]

Passing notes to the DM is something often used, but making it something players will have to do a lot will slow the game down a lot more than I think you will enjoy.

[Freed]

Ooh! I had an idea!
Make up spells that sound like non-magic abilities or something else.
I throw a torch at it = I cast fireball!
I use fleet of foot = I cast expeditious retreat!
I use my ventriloquism skills = I cast ghost sound!
I search very thoroughly = I cast true sight!
I blend into the shadows and sneak around = I cast invisibility!
You can keep a list of translations in front of you, and nobody will be overly suspicious because the things they say will have the same effect as the magic they cast.

[Stryyke]

Not a bad idea. I'll look into that a bit and see if it's viable.

[Roan_Spence]

I like the coded language thing above. It also lets smarter players have an opportunity to figure out what's going on. It does mean you'll need codes for most every spell in the game though it seems like.

[Freed]

True you might need a fairly large amount of code, but you would only need to make code for the spells people picked, and as the players get higher level and people come to terms with magic, the need for code will fade out.

[JohanOfKitten]

The code thing can work really well, but the less you have magic abilities and players with thoses secrets, the better it is to be quick, discreet and aware of the code the player is throwing at you.

If you have a lot of spells, with different codes, several players doing it, it might become a bit messy sometimes and you'll risk to miss a code or else.
It can become harder of magic is big in the group.


I've used codes in a campaign I DMed. Only 3 players, all with magical powers, but one of them had some dark skills he wanted to keep quiet. Only two powers to code.
It worked great ! Sometimes, the code wasn't even necessarily and a good description with a knowing look was enough to tell me "Okay, i've used this excuse to touch her arm. You know what I do know. Let me leech her energy".

With more powers and codes, I guess it might work as well, but I think it might add a need for you of more concentration to hear the codes through all the chating.

[Stealth Marmot]

Ooh! I had an idea!
Make up spells that sound like non-magic abilities or something else.
I throw a torch at it = I cast fireball!
...
You can keep a list of translations in front of you, and nobody will be overly suspicious because the things they say will have the same effect as the magic they cast.

What the hell kind of torches are you throwing that explode in a 20 foot radius of fire?

Do they still only cost 1 cp?

[Freed]

OK, fine.
I throw a Molotov cocktail = I cast fireball!
Are you happy now?
(Grumble) darn marmots, always complaining about the cost of spontaneously exploding torchs.,...

[Jay R]

I have a related issue. I'm playing a gnome illusionist. He has illusion spells, but also the spell-like abilities of ghost sound and dancing lights. The rules are slightly different for them. Specifically, a spell-like ability has no components, so people can't see me doing it.

The DM and I have agreed that if I say, "I'm casting ghost sound", then that's a spell. But if I say, "The sound of marching is coming from over the hill," without mentioning spell casting, then it's the spell-like ability.

[Stealth Marmot]

OK, fine.
I throw a Molotov cocktail = I cast fireball!
Are you happy now?
(Grumble) darn marmots, always complaining about the cost of spontaneously exploding torchs.,...

Excuse me, THAT is racist sir! We are not all a bunch of psychopathic pyromaniacs!

*shuffles Molotov cocktails under desk*

...WHAT??

[Grod_The_Giant]

One thing to consider: I can't imagine such secrets will last for long. Between natural story/gaming pressures and basic observational skills, I feel like everyone will be on the same page in a few sessions.

[Freed]

Do all the players have some some sort of magic?
If not, will the MU's have to keep their powers from each other?
And are divine spells banned?
P.S. @stealth marmot Why does an adventuring mormot have or need a desk? Would that not interfere with the stealth part if you are dragging a desk around all day?

[Stryyke]

No not all the players will be able to use magic. 1 or 2 I hope. They have to keep it secret at the beginning because the campaign starts in a superstitious area. As time goes by, if the players feel they can trust each other, they may divulge that information; but that has to be a player decision. I honestly don't know how long the players will want to keep it secret. It's possible one of them may just let the group know from the get-go. I don't imagine they'll be able to keep it secret for more than a few months; but if we can work out a system, and the player is especially conscientious, perhaps they can keep it secret longer. Eventually, though, it will become obvious that they are not pursuing martial skills; and the group may demand an explanation as to why the player is just sitting there in combat, seemingly not doing anything. Once they get some experience in the world, they will have to reveal, though. Any player casting magic in a low magic world is going to eventually want to throw fire, and create earthquakes. So I'm going to put a soft limit on the secret for 1 year. If a player is still keeping the secret, I'll encourage them to do the big reveal. Perhaps I'll have someone so injured that only magic can save them, or something to that effect.

[Freed]

OK. If you want the secret to last fairly long, a hexblade or swordmage could be good options.

[Stryyke]

Yea. If I have a male caster, he will almost certainly have delve into the martial skill a little. The women, however, will have a harder time keeping it from the group, I think. The males in this setting tend to utilize more aggressive magics, while the women have much great breadth. The campaign is a homebrew based on Wheel of Time. Are you familiar with it?

[Freed]

I know somewhat, but not very much. Are divine casters feared too?

[Stryyke]

There are no divine casters. The only magic would be considered arcane. In fact, there are no deities in the world. Though there are fanatics.

[Freed]

If the female MU's have buffs or healing, they could pass as warlords.

[Stryyke]

It's complicated. Both men and women have access to all magics, but women tend toward diplomatic uses, while men tend toward offensive use. The players can be whatever they want; but in setting, that is the way it is. It stems from the manner in which they access their magics. I could explain, but I may never stop talking if I get started. The most common way women hide there power is in plain sight. Diplomacy. They become leaders of their towns, clans, countries; because in those positions, people are analyzing your politics rather than looking for incongruities in your actions.

[Segev]

One thing to do is have people write their actions on index cards. That way, everybody's doing it. You can run through a round by reading them in initiative order.

If the players all know that there's a possibility of one or more of their fellows secretly being a mage, you can hand everybody two cards: "Magic" on one and "Not Magic" on the other. Require them to pass you a card each time they do something. They tell you what they're trying to do. And describe how they go about it. If they pass you "magic," then you figure out how they're hiding what they're doing with magic in their mundane-seeming action, and determine if it's going to be detected by whatever mechanics you have for that (possibly observation, if he says "I light him on fire with a torch" and there's a massive explosion of fire that shouldn't have happened so strongly).

If they pass you "not magic," then you take their action at face value.

Whether you give non-mages two "not magic" cards, or give them one of each and raise a questioning eyebrow if they pass you "magic," is up to you.

Heck, if the non-mage passed you "magic," it gives you a chance to raise an eyebrow and ask, "Are you SURE you wanted to give me this card?"

Which means that, if you ever get one from a mage who you think should know better than to use magic in this situation, you can ask him that, too. Or if you think he really SHOULD be, but he isn't.

[Stryyke]

The thing is that if I do that, I may as well just use texting for everyone. It would be much faster than index cards. During combat, it's not that big a deal. It usually takes some time for people to make up their minds anyway. But the problem is during non-combat time. Everyone wants to do a million things, and half of them they want to keep secret. And it's the non-combat magics that need the most explanation.

[RazorChain]

I suggest doing without secrets, it only takes up valuable time for little or no gain, just so couple of people can smirk about their funny little secrets.

In fact I support open play where everyone shares their backgrounds, no note passing or players getting alone time with the GM.

What does this accomplish? Everyone is at the same page and everyone is involved. Players who don't know what is going on get disinterested and bored. This requires trust between players and GM and the GM must sometimes remind other players not to metagame.


Source: 13 years playing with secrets, pulling players aside and note passing. 10 years without secrets. 5 years with totally open play where players share their backstories with each other.

[Segev]

The thing is that if I do that, I may as well just use texting for everyone. It would be much faster than index cards. During combat, it's not that big a deal. It usually takes some time for people to make up their minds anyway. But the problem is during non-combat time. Everyone wants to do a million things, and half of them they want to keep secret. And it's the non-combat magics that need the most explanation.

This is why I suggest the "magic"/"not magic" cards. This should be pretty quick to adjudicate. It will take some trust and intuition on your part and theirs (irrespectively), as they say what they do and you figure out how their magic does it.

But it would let you reserve texting or long-form index cards for more complex actions.

[Stealth Marmot]

This is why I suggest the "magic"/"not magic" cards. This should be pretty quick to adjudicate. It will take some trust and intuition on your part and theirs (irrespectively), as they say what they do and you figure out how their magic does it.

But it would let you reserve texting or long-form index cards for more complex actions.

I would say if you can't fit it on an index card, you most likely can't do it in 6 seconds.

[Segev]

I would say if you can't fit it on an index card, you most likely can't do it in 6 seconds.

A bit beside the point I was making, though a valid point. What I was getting at is that you have two real short-hand cards. You don't have to write anything on them; their sole already-applied labels are "magic" and "not magic," and handing the right one to the GM lets him know if you're using magic or not to accomplish the goal you stated.

If you hand him "magic" and you say "I am climbing this cliff face," and he knows you have a fly spell, he will understand that you're using the fly spell and making it look like you're climbing. If you hand him "not magic" when you say that, he knows you're just...well, climbing. Mundanely.

[Stryyke]

I've been thinking on that, and I can definitely see how that would work, especially in the setting. I might do a one-off just to see the mechanics in action.

[Freed]

But if he does that, for one, the party members will KNOW at least one party member has magic, some spells have similar effects, as well as the fact that passing out the cards will take time, because if they all pass 'em back at once, he won't know who's doing magic or not.

[Algeh]

But if he does that, for one, the party members will KNOW at least one party member has magic, some spells have similar effects, as well as the fact that passing out the cards will take time, because if they all pass 'em back at once, he won't know who's doing magic or not.

Presumably, all players will know having magic is an option since they'll be deciding at character creation if they want to build a magic-using character or not.

I can see the index card thing working well, since it wouldn't really give players any new information other than "it's possible someone is using magic right now", which they should already know from being given the option at character creation. (Personally, I'd run the index cards system for at least a while even if no players chose magic-using PCs if part of the setting I wanted was for everyone to secretly wonder if someone else in the group was using magic).

To speed up passing the cards, you could also mark them per player. Player #1 has two cards with his character's name written on both sides (maybe also color-coded per player) and only one of the two sides displaying the magic versus no magic. That would let the cards be efficiently passed back to the same players who handed them to you, since the name-only side would be "up" while they were being passed back, and the name-plus-status side would be for the GM to look at when figuring out what's going on.

Complicated magical plans would been to be explained to the GM in advance with some kind of contingency system, but I really don't think there's a way around that if you want to keep secrets like this.