Stealing from shops with sleight of hand

[Corpse]

How would a rogue go about stealing items from any shop with guards? Im assuming a sleight of hand check and the guards each make a spot check to see if they can witness the rogue stealing?

Also the rogue has Deft Hands (+2 to sleight of hands checks), +5 Bluff synergy (+2 to sleight of hands checks), +2 bonus for wearing a cloak, 6 skill points in Sleight of Hands, +4 dex modifier, potion of cats grace (+4 dex) adding +2 dex modifier, Cats GRace Buff from Druid in the party (+4 dex) adding +2 dex modifier, for a total of +20 to sleight of hand rolls.

To clarify, would it be a simple sleight of hand check to steal an item in the shop?

Also, would the guards even be able to roll for a successful spot check against lets say a total roll of 30 for sleight of hands (assuming a 1d20 roll of 10 + the rogues +20 bonuses).

Thanks !

[Pleh]

In a general sense, it depends a lot on how and what you're stealing. If you're just blending in with the crowd and pilfering in plain sight, slight of hand would be useful, but arguably only for relatively small objects. You can easily use slight of hand on a gem, but a little trickier to steal a sword or a horse that way.

[John Longarrow]

Also depends on if the guards are watching you or the merchandise. If they are keeping tabs on specific items, you go by, and the item isn't there anymore, they will come after you for taking it.

[Morof Stonehands]

How would a rogue go about stealing items from any shop with guards? Im assuming a sleight of hand check and the guards each make a spot check to see if they can witness the rogue stealing?

Also the rogue has Deft Hands (+2 to sleight of hands checks), +5 Bluff synergy (+2 to sleight of hands checks), +2 bonus for wearing a cloak, 6 skill points in Sleight of Hands, +4 dex modifier, potion of cats grace (+4 dex) adding +2 dex modifier, Cats GRace Buff from Druid in the party (+4 dex) adding +2 dex modifier, for a total of +20 to sleight of hand rolls.

To clarify, would it be a simple sleight of hand check to steal an item in the shop?

Also, would the guards even be able to roll for a successful spot check against lets say a total roll of 30 for sleight of hands (assuming a 1d20 roll of 10 + the rogues +20 bonuses).

Thanks !

Also, just note that the Potion of Cat's Grace and Cat's Grace spell are the same enhancement type, and thus, do not stack. And the cloak that adds a Dexterity bonus would not stack either, assuming it is the standard cloak from the Dungeon Master's guide. So his bonus would only be +16.

[Crake]

Also, just note that the Potion of Cat's Grace and Cat's Grace spell are the same enhancement type, and thus, do not stack. And the cloak that adds a Dexterity bonus would not stack either, assuming it is the standard cloak from the Dungeon Master's guide. So his bonus would only be +16.

I assume the cloak is more like a "masterwork tool" for sleight of hand, by adding misdirection and whatnot, so it would be 18 in that case (a level 3 character is unlikely to have a +4 dex robe worth something like 5x his wbl).

Ok, now take into account a level 3 watch guard. Guards on watch have different priorities to ones tasked with enforcing the law (aka, an enforcer). Such a guard would be a human, lets say level 3 or so, he would be most likely a Warrior, human in all likelyhood, with the standard array, so 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. As a watch guard, his 13 would most likely be in wisdom (bump it up at level 4, if he ever makes it there), with, most likely, alertness, skill focus spot, and skill focus sense motive.

Assuming as, a specialized guard, that spot and sense motive are granted as class skills (or just make him into an expert if it perturbs you too much), he would have 6 ranks, 1 wisdom, 2 from alertness and 3 from skill focus, for a total of +12 to spot, and +10 to sense motive. Now, admittedly, he still nees to roll a 16 to be able to spot the rogue taking 10 on his sleight of hand, but the odds are definitely not 0. Of course, the guard also has +10 to sense motive, allowing him a decent chance to roll an accurate hunch on the rogue, which would probably result in him keeping a keen eye on the rogue, likely granting him a second (as a move action) and a third (as a standard action) spot check, meaning he suddenly has 3 chances on that 25% chance of success, which now just jumped to a 58% chance of success.

[Corpse]

Also, just note that the Potion of Cat's Grace and Cat's Grace spell are the same enhancement type, and thus, do not stack. And the cloak that adds a Dexterity bonus would not stack either, assuming it is the standard cloak from the Dungeon Master's guide. So his bonus would only be +16.

Cool I see how the potion doesn't stack. But the +2 bonus for the cloak is under the Sleight of hand modifier table for having baggy clothing. Page 82 of the Players Handbook.

[Crake]

Cool I see how the potion doesn't stack. But the +2 bonus for the cloak is under the Sleight of hand modifier table for having baggy clothing. Page 82 of the Players Handbook.

Ah, that bonus is specifically to concealing items on your person, not palming the items in question. So basically, hiding something in your clothes so if someone pats you down, they can't find it.

[John Longarrow]

Also there can be circumstance modifiers based on what you are taking, where it's located, and how much attention is on it in the first place.

Trying to steel a mug off of a tavern counter is pretty easy. Trying to steal a magic item from a store will be much more difficult. Just remember that as the value of the item goes up, so do the measures to protect it.

[Hiro Quester]

Just remember that as the value of the item goes up, so do the measures to protect it.

And the scale of likely vengeance for stealing goes up too.

[Corpse]

Thanks for all the helpful replies. WIll definitely be stealing some stuff. Fortune favors the bold, and the five fingered discounts!

[Deophaun]

Also keep in mind that, if there are two guards and you've been made with a Sense Motive check as a likely thief, even if they don't throw you out immediately, one guard can come up to you and distract you to prevent you from taking 10. Of course, you can do the opposite and have someone distract the guards, imposing a -5 to their spot checks.

[Corpse]

Cool thanks! Hopefully the DM doesn't think of this hehe.

[Crake]

Also keep in mind that, if there are two guards and you've been made with a Sense Motive check as a likely thief, even if they don't throw you out immediately, one guard can come up to you and distract you to prevent you from taking 10. Of course, you can do the opposite and have someone distract the guards, imposing a -5 to their spot checks.

They can also likely stop you and ask you to turn out your pockets and search you, depending on the city and the authority that the guards have.

[John Longarrow]

If you take anything of real value, locate object is your worst nightmare.

[Deophaun]

If you take anything of real value, locate object is your fence's worst nightmare.
Fixed that.

[Crake]

Fixed that.

Fences usually won't touch hot items until the air has settled around them and they're worth trying to sell on the black market.

[Deophaun]

Fences usually won't touch hot items until the air has settled around them and they're worth trying to sell on the black market.
UMD a wand of chill metal and you're set.

[Virdish]

Fences usually won't touch hot items until the air has settled around them and they're worth trying to sell on the black market.

This is what bluff is for. If your going to be a thief you absolutely need social skills.

[John Longarrow]

Down side is the fence will turn you in quickly if someone important comes asking about that unique item you just sold them. Fences normally only deal with people they know so if you sell them something hot enough to get them found and in trouble, you won't be able to sell to them again.

Add on they may be more than willing to sell YOU out because of the trouble you just caused.

[Deophaun]

Down side is the fence will turn you in quickly if someone important comes asking about that unique item you just sold them. Fences normally only deal with people they know so if you sell them something hot enough to get them found and in trouble, you won't be able to sell to them again.
That's only true for fences that know they are being used as fences. Everyone's a part of the fencing guild, but only the select few are privy to their membership.

Besides, even if you couldn't find/create a fence for some crazy reason, a lead-lined box is fine solution to the problem.

[Crake]

That's only true for fences that know they are being used as fences. Everyone's a part of the fencing guild, but only the select few are privy to their membership.

Besides, even if you couldn't find/create a fence for some crazy reason, a lead-lined box is fine solution to the problem.

Sure, if you have ranks in spellcraft to a) know that the spells exist and b) know that a lead lined box will stop them. Otherwise that's what we call meta gaming.

[Deophaun]

Sure, if you have ranks in spellcraft to a) know that the spells exist...
Spellcraft is for identifying a spell as it is being cast or already in place. It is not listed as a requirement for knowing about the existence of any spell; it is merely sufficient to do so. If this spell is such a threat, low-level rogues are getting picked off by it frequently enough for its existence to be general knowledge. Or it's not a threat, so don't worry about it.

And lead lined storage is just good policy: its warding against divinations is known enough to be a piece of kit for rogues (see: Complete Scoundrel). Certainly no more metagame-y than any other piece of gear.

[John Longarrow]

That's only true for fences that know they are being used as fences. Everyone's a part of the fencing guild, but only the select few are privy to their membership.

Besides, even if you couldn't find/create a fence for some crazy reason, a lead-lined box is fine solution to the problem.

Down side is you would need to know that the item in question is being searched for to go to a non-known fence. Otherwise you do run the risk of running into people who will not only NOT deal with you but will call the guard about your suspicious sales.

Honest merchants dealing in good faith will have no problem turning you in if what you sold them turns out to be stolen. Likewise if you try to disguise yourself dealing with them, that means you would need to do so all the time. All it takes is ONE seeing through your disguise, making an arrangement to purchase, and getting the guard to come pick you up as a suspicious character to end your career for a while.

[Vogie]

Also depends on if the guards are watching you or the merchandise. If they are keeping tabs on specific items, you go by, and the item isn't there anymore, they will come after you for taking it.

This is true - if you're going after a known quantity, you have to deal with passive perception as well. As soon as they realize it isn't there, even if don't know you from Adam, they're going to start cracking down on everyone looking remotely suspicious. In that case, the social skills and clothing choices will be the best.


You can easily use slight of hand on a gem, but a little trickier to steal a sword or a horse that way.

That depends - if you look like the watch, people likely won't bat an eye about you taking a watchmen's horse. That'd be bluff instead of SoH, though.

On a related note, this is an actual stock photo people can purchase:
https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/katana-sword-businessman-shaking-hands-his-partner-hiding-behind-his-back-41319128.jpg

[Deophaun]

This is true - if you're going after a known quantity, you have to deal with passive perception as well. As soon as they realize it isn't there, even if don't know you from Adam, they're going to start cracking down on everyone looking remotely suspicious. In that case, the social skills and clothing choices will be the best.
Of you can double down and SoH the item onto the guard who is searching you, then SoH it off when you pass.

[John Longarrow]

Depends on how they search you.

If I'm doing the search, one guard is training a weapon on your head while the other (out of line of fire) has you lay down face first with your arms and legs spread. Then the search begins. Your hands move your head departs. Then again the people I learned how to do a search from are pretty good at finding things.

[Deophaun]

Depends on how they search you.

If I'm doing the search, one guard is training a weapon on your head while the other (out of line of fire) has you lay down face first with your arms and legs spread.
Ranged weapons aren't the best for shop defense, which are likely going to be crowded with wares and cover and tight quarters in general, which also makes having someone lay down for a search awkward and gives them plenty of opportunity to slip the item somewhere else.

And if you're shooting people as soon as their hands don't instantly snap to where you want them (which you have to do to prevent the item from being hidden off the suspect), you're shooting a lot of innocent people who are confused as to why you have suddenly drawn a weapon and are shouting at them for every actual thief you catch, which is why security guards do not follow that procedure for shoplifters.

[LordOfCain]

Of you can double down and SoH the item onto the guard who is searching you, then SoH it off when you pass.
At this point its gone into Now You See Me territory.

[Eisfalken]

The best thefts don't really require any skill checks. If you have a wizard buddy - or even take levels of wizard yourself - you can use a handful of low-level spells to create all manner of distractions so that you'll never have to make more than a few stealth checks here and there.