Life Cleric Help & Optimization

[jaappleton]

I need to preface this: I need help from both an RP perspective, and an Optimization standpoint.


When I first saw the Life Cleric, I recognized that mechanically, it's as advertised; Heals great. Just like it says on the box.

Then I realized that in 5E, healing after damage is a fairly bad idea. It's much better to PREVENT damage. And then I thought the best way to PREVENT damage is to have all enemies at 0HP as soon as possible. And thus, I wrote off the Life Cleric as 'It's fine, but not my bag'.

However... I've come around on it. A lot. But I still maintain the idea that it's better to prevent damage than to heal after the fact.

What I've come around on, and realized about the Life Cleric, is this: It's arguably got the best resources. Its Channel Divinity means than when you DO have to heal, you didn't spend any spell slots on it. And when you DO cast healing spells, they're more effective, meaning it didn't take as much to get the job done.

I'd never realized that before. So for classes that can heal, like the Cleric and Bard, that can't replenish spell slots without long rests (i.e. No Natural Recovery like the Land Druid), this makes them remarkably efficient.

This has piqued my interest quite a bit, and it's kind of made me want to play a Life Cleric for the first time. However, I need help in two areas:

1. Optimization
2. How to PLAY a Life Cleric


Optimization - We're starting at 2nd level. VHuman - Magic Initiate - Goodberry, Shillelagh, maybe Thorn Whip (to synergize with things like Spirit Guardians). That pretty good? Should have things covered, I think. Lets me focus just on Con & Wis.

Role Play - This, I think, is where I'll need the most help. I have seen ONE, singular, kick*** Life Cleric before - Will Friedle's character Kashaw Vesh from Critical Role. I don't want to copy him, but I'm struggling to come up with something beyond the 'No, we can't kill things, blah blah' sort of style. I'm thinking of a jaded, curmudgeon-y old man that just... He's had it. Like if he were to Turn Undead, he'd shout something like "In the name of Lathander, GET THE **** OUT OF MY WAY!" Though I don't know if that'd jive well with a deity like Lathander. That's where I need the help.

[Adderbane]

Goodberry and Shillelagh are the two best spells for you. The third is whatever you want. (I took druidcraft for RP reasons)
It also lets you be very SAD, all you need is WIS and then CON.
The alert feat is probably worth picking up at some point since you probably won't have much DEX.
Don't forget to make use of long duration buffs like Aid
Warding Bond helps you spread the damage around more, so you can get more milage out of your AOE heals/level 6 feature.
You have a lot of non-spell healing in Goodberry/Channel/Standard shortrest hitdice. Don't be afraid to use your spells in a non-healing role.
Cast Goodberry at the START of an adventuring day, and distribute them to your party. They're nice little health potions, and great for reviving down characters. Your healing is great, but you need to plan for what happens when YOU are the one who goes to 0.

Roleplaying: Magic Initiate is a good place to start. Why does your character have druidic knowledge? How does that tie into their background? What does their deity think of that? As an example, my life cleric was an acolyte of Eldath, but became disillusioned with pacifism, and left for a more smitey deity. He still carries his holy symbol and vestments though...

Choosing a deity is an important part of your character, and if you're playing in Forgotten Realms, the good side of the pantheon may seem a little underwhelming (at least I think so). Your DM might let you import a deity from another setting if you ask nicely.

[jaappleton]

Goodberry actually lasts 24 hours, right?

NOTE TO SELF: If you ever have any spell slots left at the end of the day, spend 'em on Goodberry!

[Zene]

Thorn whip is ~amazing~ especially coupled with spirit guardians, and especially if part of your objective is to prevent damage. You can use it to pull enemies off of squishy allies.

For RP justification, what I did was make him a worshipper of a god of knowledge, and made the character obsessed with learning magical knowledge. (Helps explain not only magic initiate but also his 1 level of wizard.)

[Zene]

For how to play one (optimization, etc), check out the other recent thread on Life Clerics. Lots of good advice in there.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Goodberry actually lasts 24 hours, right?

NOTE TO SELF: If you ever have any spell slots left at the end of the day, spend 'em on Goodberry!
Unfortunately, Magic Initiate only gets you one daily use; better to take a level of Druid if you really want to leverage Goodberry.

[jaappleton]

Unfortunately, Magic Initiate only gets you one daily use; better to take a level of Druid if you really want to leverage Goodberry.

.....amended note to self:

Cast it at dawn every day, and never forget to remember that the berries still last 24 hours, so if you don't use all the berries, they'll last until the next day.

[Foxhound438]

Optimization wise I think you're on the right track. I recommend healing word, it's probably the best L1 healing spell for in-combat use, and it's pretty potent on a life cleric.

[ad_hoc]

I think Goodberry is overrated.

You have a big heal every short rest (2 after 6th level). People have their hit dice to spend. And you can just buy healing potions as needed.

I think Hill Dwarf is stronger or failing that a different feat.

[agnos]

Life Cleric with Magic Initiate isn't bad, but if you really want to be strong then follow up Cleric 1 with Bard 6. Life Cleric with Aura of Vitality is super strong in combat Healing. Generally, you want replace Magic Initiate with Resilient Constitution if you're playing AL before you hit 5. You lose a bit of mid level Healing but get it back at 7 while having all the strength otherwise.

[jaappleton]

I think Goodberry is overrated.

You have a big heal every short rest (2 after 6th level). People have their hit dice to spend. And you can just buy healing potions as needed.

I think Hill Dwarf is stronger or failing that a different feat.

I agree to an extent. Goodberry is good for only a couple levels. But getting Shillalegh and Thorn Whip pay dividends for much longer, and allow me to focus on just the two stats. I can set Strength at 13 for Heavy Armor and call it a day.

[ad_hoc]

I agree to an extent. Goodberry is good for only a couple levels. But getting Shillalegh and Thorn Whip pay dividends for much longer, and allow me to focus on just the two stats. I can set Strength at 13 for Heavy Armor and call it a day.

You don't want plate? You're missing out on 2 AC. That's huge.

Clerics get Sacred Flame. If the battle is easy enough that you don't need to cast spells then Sacred Flame is good enough. It's better to have abilities that help you in tough battles. Cantrips are not those abilities.

[poolio]

Good berry is alright, but i feel it's better left to rangers who don't have access to the resources a life cleric can get, and shillelagh and/or thorn whip are also nice, but I've always felt then advantage on saving throws to maintain concentration given by war caster to be much more beneficial.

And i stated in another post recently that i really like half-orcs for life clerics, but mountain and hill dwarfs are very good at all manner of cleric stuff, they are pretty much built for it with those stats and bonus proficiencys.

The thing i like about half-orc over dwarf though would be the once a day feature where they can not get knocked out, but stay at 1hp instead, works great with the life clerics channel devinity, plus the strength bonus helps get you that plate armor and most damage will come from spells anyway.

If you really want magic initate though, look into one of the classes that would give you booming blade, it's bonus damage after level 5 on hit, plus the extra damage if they want to try to leave the range of your spirit guardians, favorite combo of mine :smalltongue:

[Citan]

I need to preface this: I need help from both an RP perspective, and an Optimization standpoint.

What I've come around on, and realized about the Life Cleric, is this: It's arguably got the best resources. Its Channel Divinity means than when you DO have to heal, you didn't spend any spell slots on it. And when you DO cast healing spells, they're more effective, meaning it didn't take as much to get the job done.

1. Optimization
2. How to PLAY a Life Cleric


Optimization - We're starting at 2nd level. VHuman - Magic Initiate - Goodberry, Shillelagh, maybe Thorn Whip (to synergize with things like Spirit Guardians). That pretty good? Should have things covered, I think. Lets me focus just on Con & Wis.

Role Play - This, I think, is where I'll need the most help. I have seen ONE, singular, kick*** Life Cleric before - Will Friedle's character Kashaw Vesh from Critical Role. I don't want to copy him, but I'm struggling to come up with something beyond the 'No, we can't kill things, blah blah' sort of style. I'm thinking of a jaded, curmudgeon-y old man that just... He's had it. Like if he were to Turn Undead, he'd shout something like "In the name of Lathander, GET THE **** OUT OF MY WAY!" Though I don't know if that'd jive well with a deity like Lathander. That's where I need the help.
Hi!

Optimization
Mechanics wise, it's easy. Take one level of Druid (or just Magic Initiate if you want to stay 100% Cleric for whatever reason) and you are set.
The reason a level dip in Druid is better however is that with Magic Initiate, you will only be able to cast ONE 1st level Goodberry per long rest.
If you dip, you can cast it as much as you want. So...

Cast Shillelagh on all your remaining slots before you get a long rest, so you have both your full spellcasting capacity and some nice extra healing for the next day.
(Depending on your campaign and the DM, this may be as little as just one slot worth because you are chaining difficult days, or as large as 400+ HP in berries because you have a free day to prepare before the big event).

In return, this means when you were able to make a full stack of berries, that your only resource consumption for healing the next day will be Healing Words / Mass Healing Words in most cases, and scarcely. So that many more slots available for everything else. ;)

So either...

Option 1. Dip now (1 Life Cleric, 1 Druid) and...
a) It will hurt at first because of the delay,
b) But not so much because you will get Spirit Guardians just one level later.
c) In the meantime, you have a great melee attack (Shillelagh), three great cantrips for every situation (Sacred Flame, Produce Flame, Thorn Whips, or Frostbite, Thunderclap, Mold Earth), and a much better offensive ratio on spell slots thanks to spare Goodberries.
Then you can take another feat instead:
- Heavy Armor Master would be a great choice, especially if you want to stand in the front but overall great (works also when archers rain arrows on you after all ;)) You will certainly lose mobility though. F me, I ALWAYS forget about Druid armor limitations.
- Polearm Master gives you another weapon attack immediately, great in front too. Dual Wielder could work too. Just beware of casting with both hands taken (although it is usually not a problem for Cleric).
- Shield Master will help you against AOE (Defensive Duelist discarded because requires a finess weapon).
- Resilient: Constitution, for all your Concentration goodies (Bless / Spirit Guardians first hand).
- Spell Sniper: weird at first look, but can be great. ;) Works with Produce Flame, Thorn Whip, Guiding Bolt, Ice Knife (Druid). I wonder if you could even learn Booming Blade from this (it has an attack roll, but indirectly).
- Observant or Durable to even out WIS/CON.
So in the end, you don't even really lose efficiency by dipping Druid because you can get another feat that improves your go-to offense. ;)

Option 2: Dip after Cleric 5, still take Magic Initiate: Druid.

Option 3: Stay pure Cleric with Magic Initiate: Druid because you are only interested in Shillelagh and never look back. ;)

Added bonus of Druid though: you get a useful Roleplay ability (WildShape), some nice non-concentration buffs (Jump, Longstrider, Absorb Elements), good 1st level AOE (Ice Knife, Earth Tremor, Thunderwave) and added control (Entangle, Fog Cloud).

That is why I recommend the multiclass straigth from the start: you can start with 16 WIS, 16 CON, so you will have 2(Domain)+4(Cleric)+4(Druid) spells prepared (Bless+Cure Wounds / Healing Words / Guiding Bolt / Command / Sanctuary, Goodberry / Thunderwave / Absorb Elements / Ice Knife), great bunch of cantrips to cover melee / ranged / other (Shillelagh / Produce Flame or Thorn Whip, or both / Sacred Flame / whatever you want / Guidance / Spare the Dying), and you can get either good defense (Shield Master, Dual Wielder), great melee (Polearm Master) or great ranged (Spellsniper, my own favorite).

DO note though that the Druid limits your armor. Unless your DM waives the limitation because (s)he doesn't deem it important because it is 1 level Druid compared to your whole career of Cleric, it may be a blocker for you (there are ways to go around this problem but too bothersome for you I think).

So if you want to stick into the melee (as in "I stand still to be hit instead of my pals"), forget about it. For a Spell Sniper build with occasional Shillelagh hit though, or a hit-and-run (Mobile feat + occasional Longstrider) it will work very fine.

And once you get Spirit Guardians, you want them to try their luck so you don't want to look too tough anyways... Or you can just drag them inside with Thorns Whip, or Command them to Approach. ;)


Roleplay
Roleplay-wise... Well, you DO honor a Life God, so you are expected to promote life.
Good thing is, you don't have to be necessarily the "rambling guy" always giving earful to his pals. Depending on your character's mindset, you could (from the "nicest" to the most confrontational)...
1. Just discuss in them in general of what added value keeping enemies alives provides (get information, or maybe a bounty, or use as hostage, or maybe settle down a conflict by showing that death can be avoided).
2. Convince them (ingame, checks) to use your stragegy avoiding bloodshed.
3. Stabilize the enemy creatures when you feel they do not merit death.
4. Entice the party to knock out systematically (or do it yourself, even if you have to risk your own hide to do so. If they are smart your pals will comply eventually).
5 Just heal yourself enemy creatures, even the dangerous ones (wonder if you could buff? Most spells suppose a "willing" creature, I'm not sure how to make that happen XD).
6 Blackmail of no healing until they respect your view (yeah, you would be an ***, but having to respect life does not mean you have to be nice about it XD).
7. Force them to comply by using a Command on them (be ready to leave the party in some cases XD) such as "Drop", "Let", "Spare", "Stop", "Obey"...

Options 1 to 4 are fair and reasonable imo. Nobody can take against you the fact that you are following your heart and value, even if it ends in making you a plain idiot who rushes to death for the love of life. XD

Options 5 and 6 could be considered as a one-time last resort, not much more. At least if you want to keep your place in the party. Using those on a regular basis WILL create a durable conflict in most occasions, unless you are smart enough to find occasions to make your point without endangering the party.

Option 7 is like pointing a finger out towards your friends. This is the biggest break of trust that can still be mended I can imagine. Anything "more" (such as casting a Bestow Curse on your murder-hobo friend) is a definite "I can't be in this group anymore" imo.

Also, all of this requires a decent DM. If whatever happens the DM only rewards XP for killing, whatever you try won't help in the end. If he does gives some alternative resolutions with same/better/different rewards, then it should be fun for everyone.

As for later... You can probably just max WIS then stack feats. ;)
All the ones I suggested are nice, but you could also take Ritual Caster: Wizard (Find Familiar, Alarm, Leomund's Tiny Hut, etc) or Magic Initiate: Wizard (Find Familiar + Booming Blade that synergizes with Spirit Guardians), and Sentinel.
You will end as a hell for enemies: cast Spirit Guardians, drag someone close inside with Command or Thorn Whip, land an OA if he tries to move away so his speed downs to 0, next turn land a Booming Blade. Repeat and enjoy.

[LudicSavant]

Here are a few possible avenues to explore for RP that doesn't fit into the stereotypical mold for a Life Domain cleric, off of the top of my head:

- You don't just maintain life, you celebrate it. You're an exuberant, fun-loving, thrill-seeking type that seeks to live life to the fullest, and advises others to do the same. Seize every day! Indulge yourself! You actively encourage others to take risks and live a little... after all, you can always fix it if something goes wrong, right?
http://pre04.deviantart.net/acab/th/pre/f/2007/016/5/d/_thieves__by_orenji_kun.jpg

- Perhaps you fought in a bloody war, perhaps you made a terrible mistake, or perhaps you were even a villain. Whatever the case, you have taken many lives. You had an epiphany, changed your ways, and came into the service of the god of Life. Now, you have sworn to save as many lives as you have taken, as penance for your past.
http://i.imgur.com/vde9XIu.jpg

- You speak with divine authority over all life, which must rightfully obey your god's commands (or, as the case may be, Commands). This is a common theme in many ancient myths and religions, so there's a lot to draw inspiration from. Diseases flee the body because you tell the demons they have to move out, and you're relaying a message from the boss. Heck, you might even order someone's blood cells to get back in their body as they're bleeding out.

- There is only so much divine magic to go around in the world; not everyone gets a Raise Dead. In your culture, clerics of Life are legally empowered as the chosen arbiters of who lives and who dies.
http://img09.deviantart.net/e0c3/i/2008/211/3/b/radiant_cleric_of_pelor_by_grandanvil.jpg

- You are a master strategist; your allies are soldiers who have placed their lives in your hands, willful pieces on your chess board. You are an intelligent, practical, rational, and effective commander. You inspire your allies to get up and keep fighting, and your audacious and devious plans ensure that their bravery is not wasted. Take a look at magnificent bastards (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard) in support class roles, such as Shiroe from Log Horizon.
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/log-horizon/images/d/d8/Shiroe_v7.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/213?cb=20141218033939

- You are the complete physician: You seek to cure ailments of the mind as well as the body, and have a broad definition of ailments. Perhaps anger is resolved by justice. Perhaps arrogance is cured by a dose of humility. Perhaps truth is the antidote of lies.

- As above, but extended to a cultural scale, with memes being seen similarly to diseases. The evil empire has to fall in order to create a healthier world.
http://i.imgur.com/ePpeHiH.jpg

- Life comes in many forms, and goes through many cycles. Death, undeath... these things are just another transition in life, and you are wise in the way of these cycles. After all, nothing stops Life clerics from using Animate Dead or Speak With Dead, and heck, they have many Necromancy spells on their domain list.

- Healing goes against the natural order of the world. When you bring someone back from injury or death, you must collect that debt to balance the cosmic scales. You, those you heal, or both must seek to make up for the divine cost of restoration, entering into a karmic pact with the being responsible for doling out salvation.
http://i.imgur.com/oYwVMEV.jpg

- Death is the greatest tragedy, and mortality is the greatest villain. Your grand calling is to defeat this ultimate foe, or at the very least die trying, for the benefit all. You seek to fight against this great evil at the source... using any and all ways to extend life (including, of course, necromancy), as well as seeking to research or discover any possible ways to extend life... such as tracking down unique kinds of undead to study the way their lives are maintained, or delving into the forgotten secrets of lost civilizations. You will fight against the cosmic cruelties of Time until your bones are ground to dust!
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/4e/08/75/4e0875e350f0e9bb9620f87abe92c0ba.jpg

- You are a noble, and the lives of your subjects are your sacred charge, by mandate of the nation's chief god. Perhaps it is tradition for the second or third child to enter the priesthood, while the older sibling is prepared to rule (as is the case in some real cultures).
http://i.imgur.com/9z54aLa.jpg

- You are a professional! You believe healers deserve to be compensated for their work just like anyone else, and hire out your services like a shrewd mercenary.
http://orig01.deviantart.net/a14e/f/2012/344/0/9/take_breath_by_tahra-d5nm01v.jpg

- You are a champion of sacred mortality, and will defend the life of the material plane from all invasive species... be it angel, demon, aberration, undead, whatever. You are the gatekeeper of humanity. Root out these meddlers out to allow this young form of life to find its own way. Such a character might be an inquisitor, a guardian of an ancient seal, or a champion against a planar invasion.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/ab/c3/d8/abc3d83c8ea5b9ab621a9aa6fca5be9f.jpg

- Since wounds are far more fixable for you, you have far less compunctions about receiving or inflicting them. It really is just a flesh wound. In some fantasy worlds, even death merely leads to the afterlife. Your ideas of how harmful an action is are rearranged accordingly (inhibitions, taboos, ideals, etc). Maybe you're even a bit reckless as a result. The evils that really get you riled up, then, are more than purely physical. Sticks and stones only break bones, but words can destroy a person's future. Your enemy is agony, slavery, violation, abuse, deception, and anything else that robs life of its dignity.
http://i.imgur.com/gn3sIL5.jpg

- You have no mercy for those who threaten the sanctity of Life. In violating these sacred laws, evildoers remove themselves from the protection of those very laws. To preserve sapient life as a whole, justice demands retribution. A murderer must be destroyed, whether it is an infectious disease, a parasite, or a man.
http://img06.deviantart.net/11e4/i/2004/207/1/1/stereotype_killer.png

- There is an uncanny vibrance of life about you. Sometimes, after immense disasters and cataclysms (such as a great volcanic eruption), life energy becomes significantly more powerful amongst the surviving population. Some sages believe this is because there is less competition over supply. You believe that this is because of a divine calling: The goddess of life seeking to restore the balance, and calling you as her champion. As a survivor, you are mandated to go out into the world and save a life for each that was lost.
http://i.imgur.com/5a9xqEu.jpg

- Your divine mission is to strengthen life, in preparation for the inevitable coming of extinction events. The world has gone through several such cycles already, and another is only a matter of time (or perhaps even prophecy). The factions of this world must be toughened and tested to survive extreme conditions, for the greater good of long term survival. Depending on methodology, this could easily be motivation for an anti-villain.

- You utilize your awesome divine might to establish dominance. Pretty straightforward; you have a ton of potential for social leverage as a Life cleric, especially in hard times (such as plague / drought / etc).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grbwgfJ_JjE

- You are... ah, jaded by your long experience as an adventurer.
https://img.ifcdn.com/images/0cde883843ecb4c27fcdb988214d3eda28f9c631dcabd97e6a 04d4c387e3b39d_1.jpg

[Willie the Duck]

Optimization - We're starting at 2nd level. VHuman - Magic Initiate - Goodberry, Shillelagh, maybe Thorn Whip (to synergize with things like Spirit Guardians). That pretty good? Should have things covered, I think. Lets me focus just on Con & Wis.

It depends on what you want to do, and more importantly, when you want to peak. This character you have suggested is truly awesome at level 2. 40 extra hp healing at level 1 is awesome. Wis SAD for your single attack at level 1 is awesome.

But....

choosing not to either 1) focus on Str as well (which doesn't negate shillelagh, but reduces its value) or 2) pick a dwarf (presumably hill, although both work) means that eventually you will not have the AC (or speed) to sit on the front line (note also that picking up a druid level does the same). From levels 5-something (let's say 10), the main cleric schtick is sitting on the front line, zapping people with sacred flame or your one melee attack (and throwing out healing words as needed) while your sgaurdians zap enemies who are too close. At that point, focusing on str or dwarvenness will have been a better choice.

Likewise, your melee attack is going to drop in functionality regardless. I've tried all sorts of ideas (polearm master/shillelagh-2H-quarterstaff/Magic Initiate for BB/GFB) and the end result is that you are going to be putting all your effort/ASIs into making it work, and it is going to be... marginally better than the sacred flame you can do with no additional investment.

That's the real crux of the cleric. They are no longer the second-to-the-full-warriors-front-line-fighter. They finally separated it very well from the paladin and the end result is a character that is very much not a healer-gish. This leaves a real question as to what a cleric is actually supposed to do in a given round. The sguardian and/or spiritual weapon partial front-liner is a good option, but often it feels like you are spending your precious resources just to be partway towards what the martial types can do for free (or at least SR-recharge).

Note that this is not a bug, but a feature. If you could be a full frontline warrior, and cast all your healing, then we'd be right back where we were in 3.5. It still makes it hard to figure out what to do, and makes what's good at level 1 very much not what will be best at level 5 or at 15.

[ruy343]

I've played a life cleric before: here are some things.

Roleplaying: my character was the epitome of a Fat Friar: he would always be berating the other players for moving too fast, and was constantly looking for excuses to sit down and enjoy a good meal. He celebrated life, and the simple pleasures it brings.

In terms of spells that have or haven't been mentioned yet: Life clerics actually get some extra mileage out of Warding Bond that other clerics don't get. At higher levels, when you cast healing spells, you regain bonus hit points too, and because you and your warded buddy each take half damage, that gives you a bigger window of opportunity to use your channel divinity to fill up the HP tank (and it helps your healing spells to go farther on your tank: a big plus).

I would honestly recommend that you stick with a strong cleric rather than a magic initiate cleric because you'll be better able to take advantage of your strength with heavy armor. Leave the Shillelagh Shenanigans to others.

[jaappleton]

Now I've run into an issue...

Is it better to use a Feat that'd make sense for only a few levels, or think more longer-term? I don't know how to answer that, or even how to calculate it.

[ad_hoc]

Now I've run into an issue...

Is it better to use a Feat that'd make sense for only a few levels, or think more longer-term? I don't know how to answer that, or even how to calculate it.

Levels 1-4 go by very fast.

Most of the game will probably occur at levels 5-10.

If your goal is optimization then you should concentrate on levels 5-10.

1-4 are the apprentice levels. 5-10 is where the difficulty spikes and interesting things happen.

[jaappleton]

Levels 1-4 go by very fast.

Most of the game will probably occur at levels 5-10.

If your goal is optimization then you should concentrate on levels 5-10.

1-4 are the apprentice levels. 5-10 is where the difficulty spikes and interesting things happen.

This is very true.

I'd be the only spellcaster AND the only one capable of healing. So I need to plan very carefully.

[ad_hoc]

This is very true.

I'd be the only spellcaster AND the only one capable of healing. So I need to plan very carefully.

Keep in mind that the game functions well with no healers in the group at all.

[jaappleton]

Keep in mind that the game functions well with no healers in the group at all.

but in a two man party, battles can swing drastically if one goes down.

I discovered that the hard way.

[Willie the Duck]

This is very true.

I'd be the only spellcaster AND the only one capable of healing. So I need to plan very carefully.

In that instance, maybe conserving your spells (by not using them on spiritual weapon and spirit guardians) might be preferable. In that instance, maybe a high-str War domain cleric with Polearm Mastery and a halberd/glaive would be preferable.

[Citan]

but in a two man party, battles can swing drastically if one goes down.

I discovered that the hard way.
Well, for a 2-man team with you as the only caster, things indeed require some planning.

Without thinking too much, I have 3 options to suggest (of course there are plenty others that could work, it really depends on your teammate class and campaign settings)
1. Life Cleric / Druid 1, with Spell Sniper. You will be always mobile, staying in back line, using your cantrips to help your friend (Thorn Whip to help him disengage, or just Produce Flame). Use Bless on both of you, except when you know there will be few spells against you and more attacks, in which case Shield of Faith your friend.
As soon as you get Warding Bond, use it for the big fight.

This strategy is very viable if your friend has decent resilience (STR Fighter or Paladin), great resilience (Barbarian) or great evasion (Monk). Rogue is a specific. Once he gets level 5, as soon as he doesn't act stupid it will be fine.

2. Life Cleric with good STR+CON and MAM. Stand strong side by side with your friend in melee, or be the one that draws fire, helping yourself with Shield of Faith. You will use your spell slots solely for emergency healing and buffs, so you can cope with a 14 to 16 WIS for now.
Good all-around, although you may lack mobility.

3. Trickster Cleric, with a later dip in Rogue for Expertise.
Great if your pal is a Dex build, still good even with a STR pal: you immediately give a great boost to Sneak, and you end with great defense for you (Mirror Image) and great sneakiness for both (Pass Without Trace).
Because in the end, avoiding fights you (probably) can't win is the best strategy to live long. ;)

[Willie the Duck]

2. Life Cleric with good STR+CON and MAM. Stand strong side by side with your friend in melee, or be the one that draws fire, helping yourself with Shield of Faith. You will use your spell slots solely for emergency healing and buffs, so you can cope with a 14 to 16 WIS for now.
Good all-around, although you may lack mobility.

Why would you give a str-based life cleric MAM?

[Theodoxus]

This is very true.

I'd be the only spellcaster AND the only one capable of healing. So I need to plan very carefully.

You might consider Life Cleric 1/Lore Bard x in that case. More 'blastery' options with bard, plus able to pick up better healing (aura of vitality is amazing) for in combat buffing. Vicious Mockery can really help mitigate incoming damage, as can Cunning Words. If I were two-manning, I'd definitely consider that mutliclass.

[Citan]

Why would you give a str-based life cleric MAM?
Because I totally misspelled and wanted to write HAM? XD:smalltongue:

[Willie the Duck]

I think we need to learn more about this adventuring party and the game. If OP is the only spellcaster, I'm assuming they're paired with a Barb, Fighter, Monk, or Rogue. Which one it is is important.


Because I totally misspelled and wanted to write HAM? XD:smalltongue:

Makes sense. I thought you knew something about this adventure that I didn't.


You might consider Life Cleric 1/Lore Bard x in that case. More 'blastery' options with bard, plus able to pick up better healing (aura of vitality is amazing) for in combat buffing. Vicious Mockery can really help mitigate incoming damage, as can Cunning Words. If I were two-manning, I'd definitely consider that mutliclass.

Bard--either valor bard or 'protected lore bard' (cleric 1, fighter 1, paladin2, or perhaps dwarf) certainly has the diversity to carry water with a martial in a 2-man group. Skills alone make having a bard make sense (as always, depending on how much the DM makes them relevant). If blasting is what's called for, I'd possibly choose a Light Cleric or Cleric 1/Warlock X instead.

Regardless, in 2-man groups, criminal background is a great way to pick up the basic TSR-era-thief abilities and remove the need for a specialist in that realm.

[Mandragola]

I think that a life cleric needs strength, or to be a dwarf. This is so that you can wear plate. This has further implications. You need S15 not to be slowed in heavy armour, so you need to be strong, so you don’t need shillelagh, so you don’t need magic initiate.

Instead, I’d take either warcaster or resilient: con. Very likely the latter, as it’s a life cleric’s #1 job to keep himself alive. If he’s alive he’s got tons of ways to get the rest of the party on their feet.

Starting stats for curmudgeonly old man life cleric that I built, taking vuman with resilient constitution: 16, 8, 16, 8, 16, 8. This guy is strong, tough and wise… and he’s clumsy, slow-witted and rude. He’s in the party because he keeps you alive, not because you’re friends with him.

Hill dwarf is another strong option for a life cleric (or any cleric). You don’t need so much strength, you get an extra hp/level and you can use martial weapons. But missing out on resilient: con is a downer.

Both of these assume that you’ll be on the front line, but you don’t necessarily need to – if the party has others who can take that place. An interesting option is to play a wood elf with a good dex score. You’re proficient with longbows, and your extra D8 of damage at lvl 8 does work with ranged attacks. With a good dex and wis, perception proficiency from being an elf and stealth from a background you can be the party scout if nobody else is qualified.

Loitering at the back means you’re inherently less vulnerable, so you don't need resilient:con and warcaster so much. It also significantly reduces the effect of spirit guardians. If you're not hitting people in melee it's generally easier to retain a free hand for spellcasting.

[BDRook]

You can be a life Cleric and NOT be a pacifist. My Dwarf Life Cleric loved fighting. The way he put it, nothing makes you feel more alive than a good fight. He wouldn't kill ya, in fact he was quite good at making sure you stayed alive to fight another day. But evil people who choose to go around killing indiscriminately are weeds in the garden of humanity that must be trimmed. Failure to do so would result in an even greater loss of life from their hands.

[Adderbane]

It depends on what you want to do, and more importantly, when you want to peak. This character you have suggested is truly awesome at level 2. 40 extra hp healing at level 1 is awesome. Wis SAD for your single attack at level 1 is awesome.

But....

choosing not to either 1) focus on Str as well (which doesn't negate shillelagh, but reduces its value) or 2) pick a dwarf (presumably hill, although both work) means that eventually you will not have the AC (or speed) to sit on the front line (note also that picking up a druid level does the same). From levels 5-something (let's say 10), the main cleric schtick is sitting on the front line, zapping people with sacred flame or your one melee attack (and throwing out healing words as needed) while your sgaurdians zap enemies who are too close. At that point, focusing on str or dwarvenness will have been a better choice.

Likewise, your melee attack is going to drop in functionality regardless. I've tried all sorts of ideas (polearm master/shillelagh-2H-quarterstaff/Magic Initiate for BB/GFB) and the end result is that you are going to be putting all your effort/ASIs into making it work, and it is going to be... marginally better than the sacred flame you can do with no additional investment.

I fail to see how Magic Initiate causes you to fall off in AC. The point of Shillelagh is that you don't need to raise your STR above 15 for plate. That plus shield puts you at 20 AC. I'd have to run the math but Shillelagh should be as good as or better than sacred flame until level 11 or so.

[Willie the Duck]

I fail to see how Magic Initiate causes you to fall off in AC. The point of Shillelagh is that you don't need to raise your STR above 15 for plate. That plus shield puts you at 20 AC. I'd have to run the math but Shillelagh should be as good as or better than sacred flame until level 11 or so.

If you've raised your Str all the way to 15, what do you need shillelagh for? The entire point of shillelagh is reducing MAD.

If you do run the math, remember to consider the opportunity costs (picking up magic initiate and the wisdom boosts needed to keep shillelagh competitive instead of War Caster/Resilient Con, and thus the effects upon doing the Bless, Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardian schtick).

[Citan]

If you've raised your Str all the way to 15, what do you need shillelagh for? The entire point of shillelagh is reducing MAD.

If you do run the math, remember to consider the opportunity costs (picking up magic initiate and the wisdom boosts needed to keep shillelagh competitive instead of War Caster/Resilient Con, and thus the effects upon doing the Bless, Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardian schtick).
I think you put it in reverse.
IF you went STR as an attack stat, you would need to bump it later to keep it competitive. While keeping a starting 15 is still doable for a Cleric without hampering WIS and CON and allows the best armor right from level 1.
Shillelagh allows you to be better from nearly start to finish (I suppose you start with 16 WIS here), because you WILL bump Wisdom anyways since you are a caster. So it is a net plus in the long run.

I would personnally rather keep STR to low and instead cope with Dex 14-16 and medium armor (so starting 16 AC max) though, but it is really a matter of personal taste (I don't like having too low an initiative, and I suck at rolls so... XD).

[Douche]

All these people are lying to you. A hill dwarf is the best choice for Life Cleric. Since you also get self healing for healing others, it also makes you a fantastic tank so you want as much HP as possible.

Goodberry cheese is stupid, I don't use it. I don't think you should use it either, cuz even though it's RAW, I don't think it's acting in good faith.

I do like your character concept. My life cleric is similar... I started off being an optimistic Lawful Good, but as time went on I became more paranoid & angry, and now I only grudgingly heal people.

[Willie the Duck]

I think you put it in reverse.
IF you went STR as an attack stat, you would need to bump it later to keep it competitive. While keeping a starting 15 is still doable for a Cleric without hampering WIS and CON and allows the best armor right from level 1.

Yes, pretty much the same thing looking from two different directions. Let's keep with the Vuman example, starting with a 15 str and maxing out your wis and con would make you an 8,8,8,15,16,16 character. Pretty limited in all things non-combat related.

I would much rather pick a hill dwarf with 16 con and wis, be able to spread the rest of my attribute points around making a well-rounded character, and rely on sacred flame until 4th level, when I would grab shillelagh.

Or a keep the 15-16 str (slowly advancing it, if at all), heavy armor, but pick up war caster or Resilient (con) as my first feat, and rely more on Bless, spiritual weapon, spirit guardians, healing word, etc. as my contribution to the party.

My main point (the one Adderbane responded to) was that maxing out a Wisdom based melee attack (either with this life cleric, also picking up an early 40 hp goodberry, or a magic initiate take shillelagh + Arcane domain granted booming blade/GFB) is a whole lot of running around, possibly for very little total reward. You are chasing around getting everything you need (one or both cantrips, heavy armor proficiency, racial or attribute capacity to wear said armor, a high Wisdom, still being able to do all the other things you need to do as a cleric), and in the end you end up at endgame with a single proficiency+5 attack that does 1d6+5 damage (or full dedication--with PAM two prof+5 attacks doing 1d8+5 and 1d4+5, but costing your bonus action and shield arm). Make sure it's a worthwhile investment.



Shillelagh allows you to be better from nearly start to finish (I suppose you start with 16 WIS here), because you WILL bump Wisdom anyways since you are a caster. So it is a net plus in the long run.

Make sure it is. Make (at least) two clerics, one with this strategy, and (let's say) a half-orc life cleric who picks war caster, then buffs str and wis roughly evenly (or even strictly buffing wisdom). See where each is at levels 1, 4, 8, 12, etc.


I would personnally rather keep STR to low and instead cope with Dex 14-16 and medium armor (so starting 16 AC max) though, but it is really a matter of personal taste (I don't like having too low an initiative, and I suck at rolls so... XD).

Yes, having to go with 14 Dex would barely be saving anything, and certainly makes one question why they are picking Life domain. Again, if Str 15 is low in your book, then by all means, go ahead. In my mind, the point of shillelagh is that you can keep your strength as low as you need.

[Citan]

Yes, having to go with 14 Dex would barely be saving anything, and certainly makes one question why they are picking Life domain. Again, if Str 15 is low in your book, then by all means, go ahead. In my mind, the point of shillelagh is that you can keep your strength as low as you need.

You didn't understand. I meant I, personally, would rather just rely on medium armor, and keep STR low so I can bump everything else and pick maybe Medium Armor Master if I feel I need better AC. ;) Because I'm of those that make having a good initiative and Dex save a priority.

That does not mean I think it is necessarily bad to go with STR and WIS.
INT is admittedly a dump stat for community. Not that I like this, or that I fully agree, but in optimization suggestions it is always the first targeted (except if it is the casting stat obviously).
CHA is a bit more important, but you can do perfectly well being an ass or just totally impermeable to expressing yourself (this is not incompatible with being empathetic ^^).
Only DEX is the suffering one here, because you never know when AOE are coming.

To compensate, you get 18 AC, possibly 20, so you can cope with lesser Constitution. And, again, you WILL max Wisdom in the end. So in the end, you will hit better with Shillelagh. That does not mean that you HAVE to go rush into melee as a brainless one (although it could be fitting, depending on how you view INT XD).



My main point (the one Adderbane responded to) was that maxing out a Wisdom based melee attack (either with this life cleric, also picking up an early 40 hp goodberry, or a magic initiate take shillelagh + Arcane domain granted booming blade/GFB) is a whole lot of running around, possibly for very little total reward.
But, who ever said one should be aiming for that???
That is why your reasoning is wrong.

You don't take Magic Initiate just for Shillelagh, nor a Druid dip just for Shillelagh "to max out a Wisdom based melee attack".
Either you take Shillelagh because you dipped Druid/Magic Initiate for other features first, with Shillelagh being a nice addition.
Or you took it for the niche glue build that combines Shillelagh + Spirit Guardians + Polearm Master + Sentinel (and very possibly any martial until Extra Attack).

In other words, you planned on a build using melee as a mundane way of spending a turn in the first place. And in this case, you trade a feat for, not one, but two ASI that you would have spent on bumping STR otherwise anyways.

Or you dipped Druid for whatever reason and saw this as a "free" way to enhance your melee for when the frontline comes to you. In which case, it still didn't "cost you" anything per se. It is the dip as a whole which provides that and a bunch of other good features at the cost of a great capstone which may never come.

[Theodoxus]

Goodberry cheese is stupid, I don't use it. I don't think you should use it either, cuz even though it's RAW, I don't think it's acting in good faith.

Not going to go into this whole war again, but I will say, after looking explicitly at the wording under Blessing of Life and Goodberry this past weekend, and how they state the exact same thing in regards to restoring hit points specifically, that RAW, RAI and Crawford all line up from my reading.


I do like your character concept. My life cleric is similar... I started off being an optimistic Lawful Good, but as time went on I became more paranoid & angry, and now I only grudgingly heal people.

I did the same thing! Although I blame my increasing reticence on the fact that we're playing Out of the Abyss and I've gone insane more than once... a bit of permanence bleeding through into paranoia...

I really think it's just a trait of being perceived as a healbot, even when playing against type... just because I CAN heal, and heal really well, doesn't mean that's ALL I do!

[Zene]

Keep in mind that you can wear heavy armor without meeting the STR requirements, you just lose 10 feet of movement. To me, that and a 1/3 of a feat (shillelagh) is a very small trade-off in exchange for being single-attribute dependent.

If you're not a front-liner, that 10' isn't really a big deal anyway. If you ~are~ a front-liner, and you picked up Thorn Whip as one of the other 1/3rds of the feat, you can pull enemies 10' to you. But you'll also have a bunch of strong ranged options anyway (sacred flame, guiding bolt, spiritual weapon) on top of that.

[Adderbane]

Yes, pretty much the same thing looking from two different directions. Let's keep with the Vuman example, starting with a 15 str and maxing out your wis and con would make you an 8,8,8,15,16,16 character. Pretty limited in all things non-combat related.

I would much rather pick a hill dwarf with 16 con and wis, be able to spread the rest of my attribute points around making a well-rounded character, and rely on sacred flame until 4th level, when I would grab shillelagh.

Or a keep the 15-16 str (slowly advancing it, if at all), heavy armor, but pick up war caster or Resilient (con) as my first feat, and rely more on Bless, spiritual weapon, spirit guardians, healing word, etc. as my contribution to the party.

My main point (the one Adderbane responded to) was that maxing out a Wisdom based melee attack (either with this life cleric, also picking up an early 40 hp goodberry, or a magic initiate take shillelagh + Arcane domain granted booming blade/GFB) is a whole lot of running around, possibly for very little total reward. You are chasing around getting everything you need (one or both cantrips, heavy armor proficiency, racial or attribute capacity to wear said armor, a high Wisdom, still being able to do all the other things you need to do as a cleric), and in the end you end up at endgame with a single proficiency+5 attack that does 1d6+5 damage (or full dedication--with PAM two prof+5 attacks doing 1d8+5 and 1d4+5, but costing your bonus action and shield arm). Make sure it's a worthwhile investment.




Make sure it is. Make (at least) two clerics, one with this strategy, and (let's say) a half-orc life cleric who picks war caster, then buffs str and wis roughly evenly (or even strictly buffing wisdom). See where each is at levels 1, 4, 8, 12, etc.



Yes, having to go with 14 Dex would barely be saving anything, and certainly makes one question why they are picking Life domain. Again, if Str 15 is low in your book, then by all means, go ahead. In my mind, the point of shillelagh is that you can keep your strength as low as you need.

Shillelagh sets your staff to 1d8 damage whether you are using it with 1 or 2 hands.

Let's look at your hill dwarf with 16 con and wis. Let's say you've got 8 STR, cause you don't need it for anything. What're you doing with those points you've freed up? You could put two stats to 10 and 1 to 16, or 1 to 14 and 1 to 12 and leave the 3rd at 8, or push . But what're you getting out of this? High Int? Cha? Dex? None of these are critical stats for you. In the end, your 8, 14, 16, 12, 16, 8 Hill dwarf, isn't much better at out of combat things than my 15, 8, 16, 8, 16, 8 VHuman.

What I'm saying is you've already got heavy armor proficiency from being a life cleric, so you'll probably want to have capacity to wear it one way or another. All you do with that hill dwarf build is trade being good at STR stuff for being good at a different stat, and trading the other racial bonuses for a skill and a feat, that feat giving you good melee attacks and a 40pt heal. They're both excellent choices.

Goodberry isn't far behind Prayer of Healing for an average 4 man party, and that's assuming 100% efficiency (a rather rare occurrence in my experience. Damage is usually uneven). If damage is mostly on your front line, it's considerably better. If you're the one who's unconscious, it's unequaled. I think an effective 2nd level spell slot saved is pretty nice. Plus there's a ton of RP use from it. Rescued prisoner dying? Goodberry. Hungry orphans? Goodberry. Irritated-but-not-yet-hostile-owlbear? Goodberry.

It may not be as useful at higher levels, but you'll definitely get plenty of use out of it before then.

[Mandragola]

I too hate goodberry cheese. It's clearly unintended for a cleric to cast a druid spell 4x as effectively as a druid does. I would not allow it in games that I run - not that any player I know has suggested trying it.

It's also totally unnecessary and a bad use of a feat. Goodberry is only useful for healing out of combat. Just buy potions. There's nothing else to do with money.

A hill dwarf gets at least 1hp/level, but more likely 2 due to having a better con. And they get proficiency with decent weapons. You can easily build a hill dwarf with 14str, 16 con and wis. That's good enough pretty much forever.

Magic initiate gives you two abilities which simply don't matter very much. You get a marginally better melee attack at low level and some good ooc healing for a feat. But what you actually need to do is to remain alive in combat, keep everyone else alive in combat, and maintain concentration on spells. So if you're taking a feat it should be resilient: con or warcaster.

The higher you level, the less it matters what your melee attack does. The front line cleric in our group very often dodges once he's got spirit guardians running, and sometimes has spiritual weapon bash things as bonus actions. He'd never cast shillelagh, even if he could.

If you're in a tough combat you need to use your actions to cast proper spells, not to hit things with a stick. If you're in an easy combat that can be won by bashing things then your group's damage dealers will smash the enemy up and barely notice your contribution.

[Willie the Duck]

You didn't understand. I meant I, personally, would rather just rely on medium armor, and keep STR low so I can bump everything else and pick maybe Medium Armor Master if I feel I need better AC. ;) Because I'm of those that make having a good initiative and Dex save a priority.

You are correct, I didn't catch that. I made the jump from 'picking Life domain cleric' to 'heavy armor build.' A medium armor build is also nice on a cleric, and does shift the choices. Dex 14, for example, is easier than Str 15, and as you point out, pretty solidly a more important stat in general <insert micro-gripe about relative value of Str vs. Dex that you've all heard before>. I actually prefer a medium armor build. It is entirely DM dependent, but I find having a whole team that doesn't suck at stealth is a really good benefit, and worth planning around.



But, who ever said one should be aiming for that???
That is why your reasoning is wrong.

I was responding to 1) the OP, who was asking for advice, and 2) Adderbane's comments about Str 15. I think my comments are perfectly appropriate to those points. If they are not relevant to the build you would suggest, they are not relevant to the build you would suggest.


Shillelagh sets your staff to 1d8 damage whether you are using it with 1 or 2 hands.

Yeah, I forgot about that.


Keep in mind that you can wear heavy armor without meeting the STR requirements, you just lose 10 feet of movement. To me, that and a 1/3 of a feat (shillelagh) is a very small trade-off in exchange for being single-attribute dependent.

Definitely. That's another way of doing it. I guess in certain earlier editions (1e and 3e, as examples), heavy armor had an inescapable speed penalty and yet people still wore it. If it's not a big penalty to you, then it isn't. It is a cost to the benefit, though, so be aware of it when doing your calculations.


Goodberry cheese is stupid, I don't use it. I don't think you should use it either, cuz even though it's RAW, I don't think it's acting in good faith.

I too hate goodberry cheese. It's clearly unintended for a cleric to cast a druid spell 4x as effectively as a druid does.

I agree that it is an odd one, but it is consistent with the small amount of (for lack of a better term) system mastery that the designers let into the edition. It is really good--at level 1, for a Vuman (who has the feat to take it then, and that one 1st-level feat a Vuman gets has a lot of good competition for other really impressive things you can do with it). If you take it at through M.I. level 4 as another race, 40hp is not as big a deal. If you take it as a cleric/druid hybrid (so not limited to 1/day), you are giving up the heavy armor that the cleric would otherwise have. Thus far in this edition I haven't found any exploits like this that don't have roughly appropriate compensatory costs to balance them out.
Flavor-wise, or the fact that a cleric can use a druid spell better than a druid, well yeah. That is odd, but the existence of M.I., and a Bard's Magic Secrets, Tomelock's book of cantrips, etc. class ability suggests that that concept is built into the game.

[Citan]

I too hate goodberry cheese. It's clearly unintended for a cleric to cast a druid spell 4x as effectively as a druid does. I would not allow it in games that I run - not that any player I know has suggested trying it.

It's also totally unnecessary and a bad use of a feat. Goodberry is only useful for healing out of combat. Just buy potions. There's nothing else to do with money.
I find it very strange as well they made an "official ruling" explicitely allowing it.
But after all, it is not game-breaking either.

It could be useful on any Cleric though, even as just a 1/long rest. Because it also means you give sustainment for the whole party without having to ritual-cast anything. It's a very minor benefit though for just a party, unless you are in some niche cases such as stolen equipment, long campaign in a place with no sellers to replenish stocks, etc.

I could see however a setting where some state actually used this as a part of troops sustainment: one multiclassed Life Cleric could easily sustain a whole garnison, so you could send whole armies in harsh environment without any fear of starving/thirsting. Sure a Druid can do the same, but I see more easily Life Clerics in a human army than Druids. It's totally a personal bias though. ^^

Also, on the point that "you earn so much money you can easily always buy lots of it". Please stop with that. It's absolutely false for at least the 7-8 first levels in my experience, sometimes more. Any coin you can grab then, you want to keep for buying better equipment, possibly magical, or hiring people, investing in land etc.
A healing potion costs 50 gp for 2d4+2, maximum 10, average 7.
A Druid's Goodberry would be equal or better than 1 potion for a single cast.
A Cleric's Goodberry would be equal to around 5 potions for a single cast.
At level 1, provided optimum situation (which is you had a free day before a big encounter), Cleric can provide 80 healing for a whole 6-man party by blowing both his slots before a long rest: you just spared between 400 and 500 gp.
Considering that people start with somewhere between 50 and 100 gp, it is at least half their starting income they can spend elsewhere (better armor/weapon, additional equipment, etc).

At level 3, it is now 4*40+2*50 = 260, which represents between 26 and 30+ potions. Let's be conservative and say you never have full slots available whatever happens, and can just cast for 150 HP a day on average...
You are free to sneeze at a ~1500 gp economy for a level 3 party if you wish.

I really don't have the same opinion.
Sure once you get past a certain stage, you will laugh at this because you will bath in gp... Provided you managed to survive until then. :)

Also, again...
- If your goal was Shillelagh, it means you were building something melee specific in the first place (something like Spirit Guardians, Thorn Whip to pull, smacking with Polearm master, sticking thanks to Sentinel on reaction. Or a multiclass build with a martial but some intense healing. Or a multiclass with a caster that uses quarterstaff as a focus).
- If your goal was Goodberry, then the only sane option is to dip Druid and cope with the armor drawback.

Taking Magic Initiate "just for 1/long rest Life Goodberry" or "just to have a slightly better melee attack" is a bad use of a feat. That we agree with.
But I don't see anyone making that actual suggestion.

Either you picked Magic Initiate for Shillelagh, with Goodberry as a goodie (but you didn't want Nature domain for whatever reason) because you aim towards a melee character...
Or you dipped Druid for Goodberry cheese, with Shillelagh as a goodie (which is not the best reason to dip, but that is my opinion)...
Or you dipped Druid because you wanted to exploit all Druid features and spells, and Shillelagh is a nice bonus for when you are stuck in melee, while Goodberry is a great resource optimizer because you can blow your remaining slots before a long rest to get some "cost-free" healing the next day.

[Willie the Duck]

I find it very strange as well they made an "official ruling" explicitely allowing it.
But after all, it is not game-breaking either.

Not game-breaking seems to be part of their methodology. While I've heard some people argue for it being realistic (usually using a different understanding of quarterstaff than I would use), I'm pretty sure that the 'shield and one handed quarterstaff with PAM butt-end strike' thing is either unintended consequence or deliberate system mastery perk, but they seem to support that as well (which is fine by me power-wise, but makes my head hurt picturing).


It is very useful on any Cleric though, even as just a 1/long rest.


one Life Cleric could easily sustain a whole [garrison]


Cleric can provide 80 healing for a whole 6-man party by blowing both his slots before a long rest


At level 3, it is now 4*40+2*50 = 260,

I am confused, are all these examples still with a straight Life Cleric getting it through M.I., and thus limited to casting it 1/LR? How are they sustaining a whole garrison or getting 4 castings at level 3?

I agree with the overall premise, though. Nothing else to do with money isn't true for the first 1/3 to 1/2 of the game. Life-cleric goodberry is worth 5+ potions (more because it is consistent and split-able).

[Citan]

I am confused, are all these examples still with a straight Life Cleric getting it through M.I., and thus limited to casting it 1/LR? How are they sustaining a whole garrison or getting 4 castings at level 3?

Nop. As I said, I don't see taking Magic Initiate just for Goodberry a worthwhile investment.
However, obtaining Goodberry as a repeatable cast makes it a very good investment. ;)
That is why for me it really works only if you dip Druid, and accept to cope with the armor limitations (meaning that your heavy armor proficiency is useless unless the DM is nice enough to craft a quest for a "magic wood" heavy armor XD). It is not bad though. It is not because you had heavy proficiency in the first place that you HAD to use it (exactly the same as a Fighter going Dex build ;)).

My first example ("It is useful on any Cleric though, even as just a 1/long rest") was just trying to better the value of Goodberry as a 1/long rest, by providing the niche example where you are...
- Somewhere that cannot provide sustainment...
- And unable to cast a "Create Food and Water" for whatever reason.
But honestly, the more I think about it the more I think it is actually further proving little value of Goodberry as a long rest feature, because I don't see how that could happen in fact...
Unless you were a Variant Human taking Magic Initiate right off the bat, I don't see any reason to take it at level 4 when you get access to the above mentioned spell on the next level. Sure, it's a level 3 spell, but it didn't cost a feat, and doesn't even cost any material. ;)

Then we come back on the topic of pure healing, on which I agree with Mandragola: taking a feat just to get 40 HP per day is not a good deal.

However, if you took the feat mainly for the cantrips for a build, it is a decent choice (I would rather take Fog Cloud, Longstrider or Animal Friendship/Speak with Animals, because I think it is more fitting for a 1/long rest "feature", but to each his own).

[Specter]

I really don't think that Shillelagh and MI hamper any cleric build; if it does anything, is help you hit more often. It's better to spend 1 asi on MI than boost STR, hands down. You also get "Improved Sacred Flame" in the form of Frostbite, which gives the same damage along with a less resisted type and a disadvantage effect.

And you could even go DEX as a Cleric for armor purposes; with V. Human, for instance, you could start 10 14 16 8 16 8. 18AC (breast and shield) is a pretty good AC for a Cleric, and you wouldn't automatically ruin surprise chances for everybody by picking up Stealth. That way, you could max WIS and CON and still grab another feat.

[Mandragola]

Dex is certainly a valid option for clerics. I play a wood elf light domain cleric myself. That character has the advantage that it will never have to spend ASIs on dex though, as I expect to only use spells to attack things after level 8.

A heavily-armoured cleric has a harder time, but is useful to a party as you can hold the line in combat.

I'm still surprised to see people talking about running a druid dip though, as a way to get shillelagh and goodberry. By dipping as a druid you wreck your AC, unless you heavily invest in dex. It's pointless getting a melee spell if you can't survive on the front line. But if you need either dex or strength to have a decent AC then you may as well pick strength - which removes the need for shillelagh. There's no logical case for that build that I can see, even before you consider that you lose spell progression as well.

To be honest, I don't think it's all that difficult to build a good cleric. I think we're all worrying a bit too much. A life cleric is a full spellcaster who gets to wear plate and have a lot of hp. Stats-wise, it's actually perfectly possible to have an adequate strength, constitution and wisdom from the start. After that you only really need to spend ASIs on wisdom and feats - your strength just isn't that important.

[Citan]

I'm still surprised to see people talking about running a druid dip though, as a way to get shillelagh and goodberry. By dipping as a druid you wreck your AC, unless you heavily invest in dex. It's pointless getting a melee spell if you can't survive on the front line. But if you need either dex or strength to have a decent AC then you may as well pick strength - which removes the need for shillelagh. There's no logical case for that build that I can see, even before you consider that you lose spell progression as well.

Well, as long as you blind yourself to posts from others that try to explain to you how you are mixing everything and why that is the only reason you don't see the benefits, you will never see indeed how this can be good. ;)

I'll still try one very last time.
1) If you took Magic Initiate for Druid, whatever Cleric you are, it has to be for cantrips (barring niche concept characters that would want "animal" social skills). So you don't "wreck your armor". At all.

2) If you dipped Druid, it is because you want to use all the features of a Druid. For a Life Cleric, the great added benefit is expending remaining slots on Goodberries every day to alleviate the overall resource consumption of the party. But that is just the special cherry on cake for this Domain.
For any Cleric, youl get 4 more prepared spells at least that complement your Cleric spelllist very well (Fog Cloud, Thunderwave, Ice Knife, Absorb Elements), a great array of additional cantrips to choose from (Produce Flame, Frostbite, Magic Stone, Mold Earth, Shillelagh), and an ability that can used in many situations, social or otherwise (Wild Shape).

3) If you dipped Druid but still chose Shillelagh as a cantrip because you want to use it regularly, it means you have a specific idea in mind to overcome/go around the armor limitations of Druid class... Such as...
- Making a glue tank (Spirit Guardians + Polearm Master + Sentinel). Which works perfectly fine: if you had too high an AC, creatures would just avoid you. And Thorn Whip helps but can pull only one creature at a time. With that said, upcast Command is fun on that.
- Making a multiclass on a Monk chassis, with a few levels of WIS-casters to diversify.
- Making a multiclass on a Fighter, either as a dip (+1 AC) or a gish.
- Dipping in Rogue to get Cunning Action for increased mobility.
- Taking the MAM feat somewhere to gain another +1, or the Mobile feat for free disengage.
- Dipping more (Land) Druid levels, to get some nice defensive buffs (Mirror Image / Blur / Warding Wind / etc) along with all the other great 2nd level spells (Pass Without Trace, Heat Metal, Moonbeam, Spike Growth...)
- Taking Magic Initiate or a dip later in a class that offers Mage Armour (although it does imply MADness, so I feel this has little chance to happen except a few niche cases).
- Or just compensating with features from your Domain (Trickery > Mirror Image/Blink, Light > Warding Flare) or plain Shield of Faith (as a fellow party member I would be a bit upset that my Cleric friend does not cast Bless, but if someone else takes care of it, or you are a solo player, why not?).

But well. None is blinder than the one who does not want to see... ^^
As long as we all have fun though I guess it is not important... ;)

[Theodoxus]

By dipping as a druid you wreck your AC, unless you heavily invest in dex.

How? It's been confirmed that the metal armor restriction is a fluff ribbon.

What happens if a druid wears metal armor? The druid explodes.

Well, not actually. Druids have a taboo against wearing metal armor and wielding a metal shield. The taboo has been part of the class’s story since the class first appeared in Eldritch Wizardry (1976) and the original Player’s Handbook (1978). The idea is that druids prefer to be protected by animal skins, wood, and other natural materials that aren’t the worked metal that is associated with civilization. Druids don’t lack the ability to wear metal armor. They choose not to wear it. This choice is part of their identity as a mystical order. Think of it in these terms: a vegetarian can eat meat, but the vegetarian chooses not to.

A druid typically wears leather, studded leather, or hide armor, and if a druid comes across scale mail made of a material other than metal, the druid might wear it. If you feel strongly about your druid breaking the taboo and donning metal, talk to your DM. Each class has story elements mixed with its game features; the two types of design go hand-in-hand in D&D, and the story parts are stronger in some classes than in others. Druids and paladins have an especially strong dose of story in their design. If you want to depart from your class’s story, your DM has the final say on how far you can go and still be considered a member of the class. As long as you abide by your character’s proficiencies, you’re not going to break anything in the game system, but you might undermine the story and the world being created in your campaign.

Dip druid, grab Heavy Armor proficiency in whatever manner you like (Life Cleric FTW imo) and clank around in plate. All koshur, all RAW.

[Citan]

How? It's been confirmed that the metal armor restriction is a fluff ribbon.

Dip druid, grab Heavy Armor proficiency in whatever manner you like (Life Cleric FTW imo) and clank around in plate. All koshur, all RAW.

Well, that's a big good news that I missed.
And it would make perfectly sense for a character that has only one level in Druid and everything else in Cleric. ;)
As a DM, I would frown quite a bit though if a lvl 10+ Druid suddenly took one level in Cleric to get heavy armor proficiency.

Ok then, the only significant drawback of Druid dip has gone! \o/

[Willie the Duck]

But you still have to convince your DM to allow it.

[Bluemanarc]

Have followed this thread and made up this reprobate maverick, any pointers.

Variant Human Pirate Life Cleric
At second level Dip 1 into Druid

Wisdom 16
Strength 15
Constitution 17
Char 8
Int 8
Dex 8

Feat is Durable to put Con at 17 and I have done it this way as party is rolling HP and I want high HP in the front line and for my high use of Concentration spells.
Also I am taking Resilient Feat (Con) at L5 so that evens out my Con and gives me 12 HP per level while other party members could be rolling 1's and 2's for HP, like I usually do.
L9 I will take Warcaster feat so Concentration saves are maxed out.

Life Cleric and Dip 1 into Druid at Level 2.
Well its actually about being more offensive.
Druid gives me Shillelagh to have a D8 Melee attack based off Wisdom (which is maxed out at L13 and L20).
Also Thorn Whip to bring enemy back into my Spirit Guardians zone..
And gives me unlimited access to Good Berry whereas Magic Initiate would only give me one per day.

One Goodberry Spell as Life Cleric is 4 HP X 10 so 40hp per spell (Sage Advice confirms ruling) using spare spell slots at the end of each day.
Out of combat healing is secured so only need to use some spells in combat for healing, which Life Cleric excels out.
So now a huge amount of resources spare to use spells in attacking format.

Sages Advice also leaves it open for Druids to wear metal armour at DM's discretion if you have enough flavour to make it stick.
Well Magic Initiate gives you most of what Level 1 Druid gives you, and you can still wear armour, so only going L1 Druid I have been allowed the Life Cleric Heavy Armour ability, which I think is fair and if you were L2 Druid shape changing that is a different story.

Macros was a pirate, is an Chaotic Good yet odd ball maverick "Life" cleric, he does not mind the use of Create Undead to help the party and himself, performing tasks and serving in some situations, as long as they are destroyed when not required any more, he is showing everyone that you don't need to be scared of Undead.

Macros is front line supporting Dwarf Fighter and Dwarf Paladin.
He has High AC - High HP - Poor Melee Attacks (may not even use a weapon much) - High Concentration.

Spirit Guardian he will use every battle and likely keep it running for most battles.
Due to High Con, Prof in Con Saves, Adv in Con Saves, and at L6 stick the Paladin like glue for an extra 3 to Concentration saves.
And he will use of Sanctuary and Dodge if need be.
He will also run Bless and Holy Aura at higher levels.
Will try and run Spirit Guardians at higher spell slots for maximum damage as well in conjunction with Spiritual Weapon.

With Life Cleric healing and prepared healing spells, and Goodberry.
Macros can then pick and use a very high proportion of attacking spells such as Guiding Bolt, maybe Contagion.

Has anyone got any comments on this build, any idea's on how I could improve it.
And idea's on attacking spell options.
His go to attack routine will be Spiritual Weapon and Quarter Staff attack while Spiritual Guardians is operating.
But switch to Sanctuary if too much heat comes on.

I would be particularly interested to know at higher levels what DC my Concentration save will have to hit
If damage is going to be coming in at chunks of 40 to 80, then constantly making Concentration saves at 20 to 40 is going to be hard isn't it.

Also looking at spamming Divine Intervention from L10 for the free chance of getting Heroes Feast.
Don't think my god is likely to help me with free castings of Create Undead :)

[Chugger]

If your DM allows the Life bonus per goodberry, then MI can serve you well.

If not, consider Warcaster or other feats. Clerics can be only 2 stat dependent and have a high wis and con - and enough str to wear chain or enough dex to boost med ac 2. Not so MAD as others. And shilelagh helps with this - you use caster stats to melee w/ a now-magic stick - all good.

Are you aware of the nitty gritty, like diff between healing word and cure w? Healing word has a large bonus from Life, is castable at _range_ (cure wound isn't), and is castable as a _bonus action_ meaning you can heal and melee or heal and cantrip in the same turn. You can't healing word and cast some other lvl 1 spell or better cuz there is a phb restriction - only one "spell" (lvl 1 or up) per player turn. You can possibly cast a lvl one or up spell on your reaction phase (it isn't your "turn") - but your action and bonus actions are your turn. Healing word, however, interferes with Spiritual Weapon, which is a bonus action attack and a lower tier mainstay in long fights - it's a good spell. But when using SW you can either just park it for a round if you have to Healing Word to bring up an ally, say, from 0 hp - or if you can touch the person you need to heal use SW as bonus and cure wound as your action. The problem is taking opportunity attack damage if you break off to walk over and touch-heal someone.

You just need to have all this straight in your head to play efficiently.

As per role-playing - think outside the box. Go big - go weird maybe - I dunno, you believe your god rewards you in the afterlife for every person you save from the grave. The "combat medic" meme will probably feel shallow and burn out for you. You could go "against type" and be a megalomaniac who plans on being a bigtime conqueror - you view other party members as your "pets" (as per a mmorpg - healers in WoW used to tell me that - that they had "pets" - the whole party were their "pets" - they just stayed in the b.g. and tossed the odd heal while their "pets" killed for them - letting them have some of the loot motivated them and was a worthy sacrifice - one day the priest would....). See what I mean about going outside the box or going against type? You could be a cleric who heals to maximize his potential for death and conquest! Wrong, I know, but so what - it could be fun in the right hands. Ultimately what would be fun for you? Your story doesn't really have to be all that linked to your status as a healer as long as healing somehow gets you to your goal - and it can do so in a very weird way.

[MaxWilson]

I need to preface this: I need help from both an RP perspective, and an Optimization standpoint.


When I first saw the Life Cleric, I recognized that mechanically, it's as advertised; Heals great. Just like it says on the box.

Then I realized that in 5E, healing after damage is a fairly bad idea. It's much better to PREVENT damage. And then I thought the best way to PREVENT damage is to have all enemies at 0HP as soon as possible. And thus, I wrote off the Life Cleric as 'It's fine, but not my bag'.

However... I've come around on it. A lot. But I still maintain the idea that it's better to prevent damage than to heal after the fact.*snip*

This has piqued my interest quite a bit, and it's kind of made me want to play a Life Cleric for the first time. However, I need help in two areas:

1. Optimization
2. How to PLAY a Life Cleric


You should be aware that the best healer in the game is a Life Cleric, but only for a single level: Life Cleric 1. Extended Aura of Vitality with Disciple of Life heals 2d6+5 HP per round (or more, if cast at a higher level) for up to twenty rounds, yielding 12 * 20 = 240 HP of healing for 5 spell points (or one third-level slot) and a sorcery point. Unlike a Life Cleric exploiting e.g. Prayer of Healing, that's not just 2000 HP of highly-situational healing that works only if damage is evenly spread out among all the members of the party and you have ten minutes to cast a single healing. Nope, that's straight-up fixing all the damage the whole party suffered in a tough fight with a single spell and two minutes (or less, if less damage needs fixing). If you get ambushed by creatures while you're still busy healing, it also has combat uses: it's like a free, super-powered Healing Word every single round of combat.

Therefore, a Sorcerer 3/Life Cleric 1/Lore Bard 6 with Aura of Vitality and the Extended Spell metamagic not only gets heavy armor proficiency and Con save proficiency, but he can also heal over 2000 HP per long rest and still have four spells left over. (One 2nd, three 1st, e.g. Bless, Shield, Expeditious Retreat and Web.)

When you ramp healing up that far, it is indeed more efficient to heal most things after combat. Sure, a Hypnotic Pattern on those three Chuul might let you kill them one at a time and avoid losing upwards of 70 HP in a tough fight--but is it worth losing out on 240 HP of healing just to save 70 HP? (The answer: yes, if it prevents a death. No, if it's just HP damage, and you don't care about roleplaying things like pain- or injury-avoidance.)

In practice it's fun to cast other spells too, like Quickened Bless, Conjure Animals or Careful Web (depending on which metamagic you took--I love Quickened but with so few sorcerer levels you're probably better off with Careful). You're so efficient with your healing that you don't really need to save your spell points to heal efficiently. And of course you can always wade into battle in person and use melee cantrips like Thunderwave and Booming Blade to deal damage. You have Expertise in two skills, e.g. Stealth and Athletics, which can let you have fun in other ways (like sneaking around nigh-invisibly in full plate armor). And of course I don't need to remind you that you can be passing out Bardic Inspiration to your buddies for their saves and attack rolls, or hogging it yourself to use with Cutting Words on an enemy's Athletics check or initiative roll.

The big downside to multiclassing this heavily is not about HP healing: it's that you delay your access to Greater Restoration and Raise Dead. Depending on the campaign and the party composition, it can really, really stink not to have somebody capable of casting Greater Restoration to restore a PC's Int after it's been drained by an Intellect Devourer, or raise someone from the dead after they've been killed. At best you may have those spells by level 13, instead of level 9 like a "real" bard or cleric.

Still, massively-efficient healing must be respected, and that is why I say that the best Life Cleric is barely a Life Cleric at all. He's mostly a Bard.

[Bluemanarc]

Thanks guys, yes I looked at Bard 6 but really wanted to Max Cleric as much as possible as campaign will run all the way to 20.
So feel obliged to be able to pick up all the top end Cleric spells like True Resurrection.
A bit of Goodberry cheese does that.
If this DM see's me healing too much, he will just ramp up the damage exponentially, so need to keep it real.

Thanks for the points on in fight spell casting as I had no idea on one spell per turn.
So yes, rest Spiritual Hammer when using healing word, and if can use Cure Wounds in conjunction with Spiritual Hammer if need be.

Anyone got a good idea for my Spiritual Hammer as a pirate.
"Cutlass"
"Anchor"
"Parrot"

My friends say I have had 35 years of Meglamaniac characters, so I shouldn't deliberately go down that route again.

[scalyfreak]

Anyone got a good idea for my Spiritual Hammer as a pirate.
"Cutlass"
"Anchor"
"Parrot"

Big grappling hook.

[Citan]

Have followed this thread and made up this reprobate maverick, any pointers.

Variant Human Pirate Life Cleric
At second level Dip 1 into Druid

Wisdom 16
Strength 15
Constitution 17
Char 8
Int 8
Dex 8

Feat is Durable to put Con at 17 and I have done it this way as party is rolling HP and I want high HP in the front line and for my high use of Concentration spells.
Also I am taking Resilient Feat (Con) at L5 so that evens out my Con and gives me 12 HP per level while other party members could be rolling 1's and 2's for HP, like I usually do.
L9 I will take Warcaster feat so Concentration saves are maxed out.

Life Cleric and Dip 1 into Druid at Level 2.
Well its actually about being more offensive.
Druid gives me Shillelagh to have a D8 Melee attack based off Wisdom (which is maxed out at L13 and L20).
Also Thorn Whip to bring enemy back into my Spirit Guardians zone..
And gives me unlimited access to Good Berry whereas Magic Initiate would only give me one per day.

One Goodberry Spell as Life Cleric is 4 HP X 10 so 40hp per spell (Sage Advice confirms ruling) using spare spell slots at the end of each day.
Out of combat healing is secured so only need to use some spells in combat for healing, which Life Cleric excels out.
So now a huge amount of resources spare to use spells in attacking format.

Sages Advice also leaves it open for Druids to wear metal armour at DM's discretion if you have enough flavour to make it stick.
Well Magic Initiate gives you most of what Level 1 Druid gives you, and you can still wear armour, so only going L1 Druid I have been allowed the Life Cleric Heavy Armour ability, which I think is fair and if you were L2 Druid shape changing that is a different story.

Macros was a pirate, is an Chaotic Good yet odd ball maverick "Life" cleric, he does not mind the use of Create Undead to help the party and himself, performing tasks and serving in some situations, as long as they are destroyed when not required any more, he is showing everyone that you don't need to be scared of Undead.

Macros is front line supporting Dwarf Fighter and Dwarf Paladin.
He has High AC - High HP - Poor Melee Attacks (may not even use a weapon much) - High Concentration.

Spirit Guardian he will use every battle and likely keep it running for most battles.
Due to High Con, Prof in Con Saves, Adv in Con Saves, and at L6 stick the Paladin like glue for an extra 3 to Concentration saves.
And he will use of Sanctuary and Dodge if need be.
He will also run Bless and Holy Aura at higher levels.
Will try and run Spirit Guardians at higher spell slots for maximum damage as well in conjunction with Spiritual Weapon.

With Life Cleric healing and prepared healing spells, and Goodberry.
Macros can then pick and use a very high proportion of attacking spells such as Guiding Bolt, maybe Contagion.

Has anyone got any comments on this build, any idea's on how I could improve it.
And idea's on attacking spell options.
His go to attack routine will be Spiritual Weapon and Quarter Staff attack while Spiritual Guardians is operating.
But switch to Sanctuary if too much heat comes on.

I would be particularly interested to know at higher levels what DC my Concentration save will have to hit
If damage is going to be coming in at chunks of 40 to 80, then constantly making Concentration saves at 20 to 40 is going to be hard isn't it.

Also looking at spamming Divine Intervention from L10 for the free chance of getting Heroes Feast.
Don't think my god is likely to help me with free castings of Create Undead :)
I think you nailed it good, between the Life Goodberries stack on the previous day and the "come back here" combo (Thorns Whip, Spirit Guardians). ;)
For spells, since Life provides nothing and Cleric is short, you'll have to rely on Druid spells.
I'd daresay the 1st level spells will be enough, because normally you should contribute far enough with Spirit Guardians once you got it. And if your DM allows Elemental Evil spells, then I'd say Earth Tremor or Ice Knife are your best options at range, while Thunderwave is great is you need to escape from multiple potential OAs.

If really you feel you have to contribute more heavily AOE-wise / direct-damage wise than you expected at first, the best option is either to continue Druid (pick Land) to get at least second-level spells, or... Continue Druid. In fact, you have no real option here: Rogue is out (Sneak requires finesse, you don't have the DEX in the first place), as are all CHA casters, Fighter wouldn't provide anything worth for sustained damage unless you make a true multiclass gish, Barbarian would work but make you a binary/bipolar character...
Seriously, I think you will be fine with your current build, or going higher Druid if really your party is lacking AOE only (your party should NOT count on you contributing high on damage in the first place, it's not your role).

[Bluemanarc]

I think you nailed it good, between the Life Goodberries stack on the previous day and the "come back here" combo (Thorns Whip, Spirit Guardians). ;)
For spells, since Life provides nothing and Cleric is short, you'll have to rely on Druid spells.
I'd daresay the 1st level spells will be enough, because normally you should contribute far enough with Spirit Guardians once you got it. And if your DM allows Elemental Evil spells, then I'd say Earth Tremor or Ice Knife are your best options at range, while Thunderwave is great is you need to escape from multiple potential OAs.

If really you feel you have to contribute more heavily AOE-wise / direct-damage wise than you expected at first, the best option is either to continue Druid (pick Land) to get at least second-level spells, or... Continue Druid. In fact, you have no real option here: Rogue is out (Sneak requires finesse, you don't have the DEX in the first place), as are all CHA casters, Fighter wouldn't provide anything worth for sustained damage unless you make a true multiclass gish, Barbarian would work but make you a binary/bipolar character...
Seriously, I think you will be fine with your current build, or going higher Druid if really your party is lacking AOE only (your party should NOT count on you contributing high on damage in the first place, it's not your role).

Cheers Citan some good help here, we are just using the PHB and I am just dipping 1 into Druid and going full Pirate Cleric 19.
I never thought too much about other Druid first level spells besides maybe finding an animal to befriend and Goodberry.
I keep forgetting about 5e spell upcasting, so any of those slots L1 to L4, I can use to pop a Druid spell if I have learnt it that day.
So just had a good look at Thunderwave, wow that is really useful.
Are their any other L1 Druid spells that have a bit of power in them, not going to go L2 Druid spells.
I had a quick look at L1 Druid spells and a lot of Concentration spells so they would compete with Bless and Spirit Guardians.

[Citan]

Cheers Citan some good help here, we are just using the PHB and I am just dipping 1 into Druid and going full Pirate Cleric 19.
I never thought too much about other Druid first level spells besides maybe finding an animal to befriend and Goodberry.
I keep forgetting about 5e spell upcasting, so any of those slots L1 to L4, I can use to pop a Druid spell if I have learnt it that day.
So just had a good look at Thunderwave, wow that is really useful.
Are their any other L1 Druid spells that have a bit of power in them, not going to go L2 Druid spells.
I had a quick look at L1 Druid spells and a lot of Concentration spells so they would compete with Bless and Spirit Guardians.
Well, it mainly depends on your party.

If you have a Fighter, Paladin or Barbarian, a Longstrider may provide useful in many situations.
Faerie Fire, although concentration, can be much better than Bless if you know your chances of sticking it are high.
Otherwise, I'd prepare Goodberries obviously but also Healing Words in a few levels (so one "prepared spell" more from Cleric when you start having some trouble deciding which ones to keep) then if you have access to Elemental Evil I'd prepare Earth Tremor* immediately unless you have mainly ranged attackers in your party, then Absorb Elements once you start getting hit by elemental damage.
You can already prepare 4 Druid spells so most fit, and once you maxed WIS everything fit.
So for now I'd suggest: Goodberry, Thunderwave, Longstrider, Earth Tremor and Speak with Animals (for your objective of befriending an animal, Animal Friendship would be nice too, but you already have -probably-a very good bonus to the check, and giving clear instructions is much better than having an ally that doesn't act as you wish XD) as a standard list. Then later add any of Healing Words / Ice Knife / Animal Friendship.

*
Why Earth Tremor instead of Ice Knife?
Earth Tremor can be coordinated with your melee attackers to put people prone just before they arrive, or can be used as a deterrent against a few enemies gaining terrain on a squishy (or the whole party that runs away). Ice Knife is "just damage". However it has better range and slightly better damage IIRC.

And since it's a prepared caster, you can obviously switch most of those for Beast Bond, Speak with Animals and Animal Friendship when you know the next day you can use them. ;)

You should be aware that the best healer in the game is a Life Cleric, but only for a single level: Life Cleric 1. Extended Aura of Vitality with Disciple of Life heals 2d6+5 HP per round (or more, if cast at a higher level) for up to twenty rounds, yielding 12 * 20 = 240 HP of healing for 5 spell points (or one third-level slot) and a sorcery point. Unlike a Life Cleric exploiting e.g. Prayer of Healing, that's not just 2000 HP of highly-situational healing that works only if damage is evenly spread out among all the members of the party and you have ten minutes to cast a single healing. Nope, that's straight-up fixing all the damage the whole party suffered in a tough fight with a single spell and two minutes (or less, if less damage needs fixing). If you get ambushed by creatures while you're still busy healing, it also has combat uses: it's like a free, super-powered Healing Word every single round of combat.

Therefore, a Sorcerer 3/Life Cleric 1/Lore Bard 6 with Aura of Vitality and the Extended Spell metamagic not only gets heavy armor proficiency and Con save proficiency, but he can also heal over 2000 HP per long rest and still have four spells left over. (One 2nd, three 1st, e.g. Bless, Shield, Expeditious Retreat and Web.)

Well, I don't think so. Or rather, not everytime. Too lazy to do the maths right now, but provided you have a day of preparation, I'd daresay the best healer would in fact be a Life Cleric 1 / Druid 1 / Warlock X.
At competiting level with your suggested build, Warlock would have 2*4th level slots per short rest.
So each Life Goodberry cast would be worht 10*(1+2+4) = 70 HP. So 180 HP per short rest. You could easily take 6 to 8 short rests in a preparation day, amounting to largely more than 1000 HP available for out-of-combat healing, and still getting all your slots for the upcoming day.
With the next level, each cast now grants 80 HP.
At character level 13, Warlock gets its 3rd cast per short rest.

So the Extended Life Aura of Vitality is obviously the best in tight situations, because it can even be used during a fight, and has the added advantage of being independant of short rest mechanics, but is only available from level 10 onwards stat.
Life Goodberry is available from level 2 onwards, scales continuously with added slots and as such is the best overall healing that one could provide while using his own resources. :)

(And now everyone understands what is the best healer ever: Sorcerer 3 / Warlock 5 / Life Cleric 1 / Lore Bard 11: get both combos along with Extended upcast Aid and Twinned or extended Warding Bond, grabbing Raise Dead as the last Magic Secrets, stack Healer and Inspiring Leader feats on top of that...)

[djreynolds]

I need to preface this: I need help from both an RP perspective, and an Optimization standpoint.

Optimization - We're starting at 2nd level. VHuman - Magic Initiate - Goodberry, Shillelagh, maybe Thorn Whip (to synergize with things like Spirit Guardians). That pretty good? Should have things covered, I think. Lets me focus just on Con & Wis.

Role Play - That's where I need the help.

Role Play: I played a hill dwarf life cleric in CoS... anyhow. For me I played as defender of beauty... of life, the natural cycle of life.

When you turn undead, in your mind you are putting the undead to their natural, desired, eternal rest. Aside from the vampire or lich, most undead do not want to live like this... you are doing them a favor. Devils and demons should not be on the material plane, they upset the balance and cause destruction

You are a life cleric, things in life are born and die, you wish that everyone can grow up and live a good life and die of old age.

You are concerned with premature death and destruction and if need be you will stop those causing this, you "don't need" to kill

Optimization: As Human you will need a 15 strength to wear chainmail and plate... So you could wait to grab magic initiate or a level of land druid for shillelagh, at least till level 8 when you divine strike or grab it at first, I suggest a level of land druid instead

Think about resilient con as these saves come up a lot, poison or paralysis from a spell or undead sucks, and any spell that stuns

I use lesser restoration, aid, warding bond, beacon of hope... anything to buff the team

Remember that sacred flame can be used in melee, as it is save or suck and not a rolled spell attack, so no disadvantage

High insight and perception are always huge

Spirit guardians is a huge spell to have up and running............. my tactic is to get into melee and then cast it, as they flee free AoO for you and your party or if they stay they take damage.

If spirit guardians is up and running and then you wade into melee, a good DM will just retreat

Also you can use spirit guardians as sanctuary where the injured come to you for healing while you spam sacred flame and guiding bolt

[miburo]

Ever so slightly off-topic, but does Booming Blade stack with Divine Strike? Life Cleric seems like it could be a pretty decent melee gish. Variant Human, Heavy Armor, Warcaster at level 1, start Strength and Wis at 16. Get Magic Initiate (Booming Blade) at level 4 and spend the rest of your ASIs on Wis and Str. By level 5 you can wade into melee with both Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon active, and by level 8 you start stacking Divine Strike damage on top of Booming Blade. All the while you have your empowered healing spells ready to go for yourself and your buddies.

Eh? Ehhh? Or I guess you could just play a Paladin in that case...

[imanidiot]

Goodberry actually lasts 24 hours, right?

NOTE TO SELF: If you ever have any spell slots left at the end of the day, spend 'em on Goodberry!

Spending all of your spells slots on healing before a long rest is the best way to insure that you will be ambushed in the middle of the night. That way you have no spell slots and don't get the benefit of a long rest. Have fun with your Goodberries.

[MeeposFire]

Ever so slightly off-topic, but does Booming Blade stack with Divine Strike? Life Cleric seems like it could be a pretty decent melee gish. Variant Human, Heavy Armor, Warcaster at level 1, start Strength and Wis at 16. Get Magic Initiate (Booming Blade) at level 4 and spend the rest of your ASIs on Wis and Str. By level 5 you can wade into melee with both Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon active, and by level 8 you start stacking Divine Strike damage on top of Booming Blade. All the while you have your empowered healing spells ready to go for yourself and your buddies.

Eh? Ehhh? Or I guess you could just play a Paladin in that case...

Yes it does stack with divine strike and it is decent at will damage. You do this instead of paladin if you want likely less at will damage than a paladin (a bit more all or nothing but damage is decent but costly in terms spent resources) and less spike damage but you get much better overall spell power.

Instead of human you could also go half elf or elf and take booming bade as your cantrip. You could also use spell sniper instead as well (though that makes human more likely again).

[djreynolds]

Ever so slightly off-topic, but does Booming Blade stack with Divine Strike? Life Cleric seems like it could be a pretty decent melee gish. Variant Human, Heavy Armor, Warcaster at level 1, start Strength and Wis at 16. Get Magic Initiate (Booming Blade) at level 4 and spend the rest of your ASIs on Wis and Str. By level 5 you can wade into melee with both Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon active, and by level 8 you start stacking Divine Strike damage on top of Booming Blade. All the while you have your empowered healing spells ready to go for yourself and your buddies.

Eh? Ehhh? Or I guess you could just play a Paladin in that case...

This is true. If you already have heavy armor, you need a 15 in strength. So IMO don't bother wasting your time with shillelagh. Its not that big of a deal in the long run.

While maxing out in con is big, having resilient con is just cheaper and easier. You want con save proficiency. A 20 in con is +5, with war caster's "advantage" its +10 but only for concentration checks. A 14 in con at 17 level is +8, at 13th level it is +7, at 9th it is +6, at 5th it is +5. That's how go resilient con is, at 5th level with only a 14 in con it is the same save score as someone with a 20 in con.

I prefer resilient con over war caster, the amount AoO are slim and as a divine caster you can use your shield as your divine focus. Since you have war caster, still think about getting resilient con.

I found in CoS that my teammates were laying down the smack and all I had to do was keep them upright.

You can't always use spirit guardians, sometimes you must cast daylight or something else.

Though clad in heavy armor and shield, you are still a caster.

[Citan]

Spending all of your spells slots on healing before a long rest is the best way to insure that you will be ambushed in the middle of the night. That way you have no spell slots and don't get the benefit of a long rest. Have fun with your Goodberries.
Wow. Doing that on a regular basis would be a bad example of DMing.
Normally, you would have told your players during session 0 if using and abusing this would be a problem for you.

Otherwise, you would just do this on occasions, not "to stop Life Goodberries", but just because you would have prepared an ambush whatever the party did because the context was good (such as trying to rest very close to an enemy hideout, or having ignored repeated warnings, or sleeping in the wild without any kind of security set up).

But normally there are many situations in which the party should be assured to get a safe long rest (especially in cities), unless high level party facing a powerful opponent with many spies and assassins at disposal. Which should be very improbable until party is at least level 6-7, at which time it also starts having many abilities to secure itself.

Any ambush made just for the sake of wasting Life Goodberries is bad DMing whatever way you see it, unless a) out of game you told your player you want him to restrain the use of that for whatever reason and b) the player ignores you and continues to try and cast as many Goodberries as possible. And even then it's really the worst solution, the best staying to take the player out of game and discuss the point again (meaning, asking why the player is adamant on continuing and finding a solution together).

[Chugger]

Agreed that 5e is not healing-friendly. Most fights have been really fast, except tonight we had a tough fight with a very tanky group - my cleric was the only caster. I meleed and healed - I was hesitant to cast guiding bolts (should've done spir weap but was using bonus actions for War Cleric extra attack or Healing Word). Weird fight. The tanky guys were really tough and amazing but did so little damage. Anyway, I've now seen that 5e fights can drag on. If you're up against something resistant to damage - an encounter designed to be a long fight - it could be very tough if no one can really heal.

If you do run into a fight that drags on, you might need really good healing - and I'm still thrown off that a lvl 6 bard is the best healer - even with Life's channeling 5 times lvl to get a hurt party back up to half (which tracks with letting characters get to or near zero before really healing). But not everyone wants bard, and Life cleric has a whole bunch of very useful spells no one bard can steal or get (em all).

I guess the thing is how to make a Life cleric do enough damage to put down enemies to zero in the opening of a fight? If healing becomes needed the life cl can do it, but to win you gotta be dropping enemies. And people have give a lot of good pointers on this. Other cleric domains pump out more damage and heal some. I'm thinking that some fights a life cleric is going to wish he could be swinging a maul and getting extra attacks w/ it or fire-balling or doing lightning bolts or something. And then the heavy damage clerics every once in a while will wish they had a really good mega-heal. Whichever way players have to be ready for fights they're not optimized for. But with that said a Life Cleric will have to be smart about finding ways to pump out good damage.

[djreynolds]

Good berries aside, and BB/GFB aside

Cleric has legit spells and life cleric has the best of the divine strikes with radiant damage, though I do like arcana clerics

You can play your life cleric as gritty Vietnam style medic with peace signs on his lapel and tourniquets everywhere

I played mine as life cleric of Sune who opposed destruction not death, as death is part of the circle of life.......cue the Lion King and Elton John

You can despise fiends and undead.... vigilante style.... or upright paladin like

Or you can turn a blind eye while your team-mates finish them off.

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Early on between 1st and 4th, I often just tanked in combat and spammed bless and BA healing word

At 5th, though spirit guardians is huge, I would often cast protection from evil on others

I always cast warding bond on "aggressive players" and the aid spell

Guiding bolt is awesome and so sacred flame, radiant damage is too good in 5E

After 8th level I honestly wanted to take a level of fighter for weapons or druid for shillelagh, but it was tough to lose out on 5th level spells and 20 in wisdom

8th level is when I finally maxed wisdom, which is really big for a life cleric

Now my strength was a 14, but really I never missed hits, I just lacked that big oomph in melee.

You have to decide now, does your party need your melee presence or your spells, buff and debuff and dispel magic and restoration. For me I wanted the spell access.

Honestly if you want oomph in melee than I would grab magic initiate sorcerer or wizard and get BB/GFB

As life cleric you have plenty healing