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dboxcar
2016-12-10, 01:51 PM
Craven
[General]
Like most sly rogues, you are a dangerous coward. However, your sneak attacks deal more damage than normal.
Prerequisite
cannot be immune to fear, Sneak Attack class feature,
Benefit
You take a -2 penalty on saving throws against fear effects. Whenever you would be shaken, you are frightened instead. Whenever you would be frightened, you are panicked instead.
When making a sneak attack, you deal an extra 1 point of damage per character level.

Craven
( Champions of Ruin, p. 17)
[General]
Like most sly rogues, you are a dangerous coward. However, your sneak attacks deal more damage than normal.
Prerequisite
cannot be immune to fear, Sneak Attack class feature,
Benefit
You take a -2 penalty on saving throws against fear effects. However, when making a sneak attack, you deal an extra 1 point of damage per character level.

This has worked out well at my table, both mechanically and thematically (being forced to run and hide really gets the cowardly point across, and sneak attackers can usually do so effectively). It does put a greater strain on the party, but no moreso than a hardcore rollplayer with a "cowardly" character does (trust me, I've been there), and in fact is easier to mechanically/thematically counter (with anti-fear spells, Paladin's Aura of Courage, etc).

Why are you fixing what isn't broken in the first place? Craven is, in many ways, the Power Attack for Rogues; most half-decent builds use it
The original Craven is clearly not balanced against other sneak-attack-improving feats, to the point that taking it is almost obligatory; this, despite not being structured in a 'Power Attack -> Cleave/etc'-like progression. My intention here is to give this feat an actual (flavorful) trade-off, like Power Attack has.

roko10
2016-12-10, 02:56 PM
Why are you fixing what isn't broken in the first place? Craven is, in many ways, the Power Attack for Rogues; most half-decent builds use it, and nerving it just is plain unfair to the poor Rogue, who is already overshadowed by the Factotum in many other ways. Or do you also think that Power Attack is broken just because most half-decent Fighter/Barbarian builds take it?

Darth Ultron
2016-12-10, 10:16 PM
I think we can all agree that Craven is a broken feat.

I don't think it is ''broken''.

It is poorly written. It has the fluff of ''being a dangerous coward'', but the rules don't have that. A nine foot tall half dragon minotaur can be ''craven'' just to get the extra damage.

I'd make an ''Awesome Damage for Roll Players'' feat to replace ''Craven'' and make it something more generic like ''deep strike''.

But also add a ''real Craven feat'' like:

Craven

Prerequisite Strength must be under 10, Must be weak and cowardly (DM's Call)

Benefit Any attack that is not a sneak attack has a 50% chance of missing, but any sneak attack gains a +1 to hit per level, and a +3 to damage per level.

Special The DM must make sure the character is role played weak and cowardly at all times. failure to role play properly results in the loss o this feat.

Illven
2016-12-11, 02:03 AM
I don't think it is ''broken''.

It is poorly written. It has the fluff of ''being a dangerous coward'', but the rules don't have that. A nine foot tall half dragon minotaur can be ''craven'' just to get the extra damage.

I'd make an ''Awesome Damage for Roll Players'' feat to replace ''Craven'' and make it something more generic like ''deep strike''.

But also add a ''real Craven feat'' like:

Craven

Prerequisite Strength must be under 10, Must be weak and cowardly (DM's Call)

Benefit Any attack that is not a sneak attack has a 50% chance of missing, but any sneak attack gains a +1 to hit per level, and a +3 to damage per level.

Special The DM must make sure the character is role played weak and cowardly at all times. failure to role play properly results in the loss o this feat.

Because tall people can't be cowardly. :smallconfused:

Hamste
2016-12-11, 11:23 AM
Because tall people can't be cowardly. :smallconfused:

Strong people also apparently can't be cowardly. Fearful giant irrationally afraid of things much smaller than himself? Doesn't exist. Minotaur who had a bad experience with a sword wielding murderhobo? Can't be a coward and run away from all fights. 7 foot tall farm hand who never used a sword in their life? Runs right into combat with out a fear in the world.

dboxcar
2016-12-16, 10:35 AM
I think we can all agree Some people that I play with who appreciate mechanical incentives for roleplaying and roleplaying incentives within mechanics think that Craven is a broken feat.


There, fixed it :P

In all seriousness, I think my main problems with the Craven feat are 1) the feat adds no flavor, only really a mechanical increase, and 2) it's so good that it will be chosen over feats that add better flavor or interesting options without hesitation (for example, ambush feats).


Craven is, in many ways, the Power Attack for Rogues; most half-decent builds use it, and nerving it just is plain unfair ... do you also think that Power Attack is broken just because most half-decent Fighter/Barbarian builds take it?

Compare this to Power Attack, where you actually have to give up something (attack bonus) to gain the extra damage. I'd say I'm making Craven more similar to Power Attack, if anything.