Good AC for a tank-ish rogue

[lesbiasparrow]

What's a good AC for a semi-tanky melee rogue? We have no real "tank" in the party, just me, a monk, and whatever the land druid summons, but we have lots of control. Right now I have 16, or 17 if I take the cloak of protection back from the monk, and we're level 5 so I just got Uncanny Dodge.

I'm trying to figure out if I should take a one-level fighter dip for a shield and fighting style, or if it makes more sense to just hurry towards Magic Initiate (for BB and Shield) and +2 DEX (in whichever order). We're playing Curse of Strahd so will probably only get to level 10-13 depending on how we do, or I wouldn't fret so much, but there's lots I want to fit in!

[Talamare]

1 Fighter Dip makes a lot of sense

Gives you 20 eventual AC for minimal investment

Eventually you can even 5 Dip for Multiattack, Action Surge, Second Wind, and a ton of other benefits

[Specter]

18. Breastplate + Shield = 18. Studded leather + shield could give more, but it relies on 20 DEX. For those reasons, fighter or ranger dip is nice.

[Naanomi]

I like the 1-level-fighter-dip on a swashbuckler; duelist or defensive combat style to taste (I did duelist)

[bid]

I'm trying to figure out if I should take a one-level fighter dip for a shield and fighting style, or if it makes more sense to just hurry towards Magic Initiate (for BB and Shield) and +2 DEX (in whichever order).
So you are Dex18 and studded leather for AC 16.

Defense fighting style would be +1 AC right there, but draconic dip would be AC13+Dex and you'd get BB and shield spell.

[Giant2005]

If you want a tanky Rogue, then dipping Barbarian is definitely how you want to do it.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

If you want a tanky Rogue, then dipping Barbarian is definitely how you want to do it.

But if he doesn't have STR 13, this is not an option.

[Sir cryosin]

We need your stats, class and any gear that might help.

[lesbiasparrow]

We need your stats, class and any gear that might help.

Rogue/Swashbuckler 5
Half-Elf
STR 8, DEX 18, CON 10, INT 14, WIS 10, CHA 14

Right now there's a Cloak of Protection in the party, but the monk has it. No other magic items (although I want to go look for this sword made of sunlight at the vineyard...).

ETA: I'm a little bit leery of taking a level of draconic sorcerer because we already have on in the party -- "hey bro, turns out we're distantly related!" just seems weird. Plus, I am just not a big dragon fan. But it seems like it lets me get what I want -- an AC bump and a couple cantrips -- in the same level, freeing up my ASIs for other things and not requiring me to go Fighter at all. I'm torn.

[MeeposFire]

Well for what most common people here consider tanking (high AC and HP rather than what a high OP person might say but that leads to a longer conversation) a rogue long term has 1 less basic AC versus heavy armor and is missing the potential bonus of a shield.

So first if you want to get that same AC as heavy armor you need to either

1. Find something that can raise your dex to 22 or higher.
2. Pick up medium armor and medium armor master and wear half plate with maxing your dex (for attack). Probably needs to multiclass.
3. Get heavy armor and just accept lower stealth. Also probably takes a multiclass.


Picking up a shield can also help a bit. Usually requires a feat or multiclass.


As for HP so long as you have a high con I think you can be fine on that end especially when you combine with uncanny dodge and evasion.


As you may see picking up fighter can be a great way to improve your defenses. It will give you the armor/shield proficiencies you probably want and a fighting style will probably be beneficial as well. If you are going with a shield I recommend defensive ) since you only get a couple of attacks per round at best I think defensive is better even if you think your AC is good enough. If you go two weapon fighting then pick between two weapon fighting (damage) or mariner (mobility and AC).

Then the only question is how many levels. One level means you give up the fewest levels of rogue but going to 5 gets you extra attack which is pretty nice (makes up for some of the SA damage loss and makes you more consistent). If you go up to level 7 or 8 you can go EK and use booming blade, get a bonus action attack, use a shield, and get the defensive style which is a nice combo.

[MeeposFire]

Rogue/Swashbuckler 5
Half-Elf
STR 8, DEX 18, CON 10, INT 14, WIS 10, CHA 14

Right now there's a Cloak of Protection in the party, but the monk has it. No other magic items (although I want to go look for this sword made of sunlight at the vineyard...).

Ouch con of 10 really makes me want to say don't try to be a tank. You will be fairly squishy for the front lines with that level of con. You can do alright acting like a true swashbuckler (gamewise anyway) and duel just one enemy at a time assuming it relies more on one attack than many so uncanny dodge can help you more but otherwise you may be in trouble.

[Arnie82]

A 2 level dip into blade singer gives you booming blade, 3 castings of shield, +10 movement and +2 AC while using blade song.

[Calibus]

Ouch con of 10 really makes me want to say don't try to be a tank. You will be fairly squishy for the front lines with that level of con. You can do alright acting like a true swashbuckler (gamewise anyway) and duel just one enemy at a time assuming it relies more on one attack than many so uncanny dodge can help you more but otherwise you may be in trouble.

In experience, con doesn't contribute much to the "tank" attribute. It's resistance and avoidance.

[Talamare]

In experience, con doesn't contribute much to the "tank" attribute. It's resistance and avoidance.

Depends on what you're tanking

A good DM will throw some of everything, in which case it's ALL important

10 vs 14 Con at level 5 is about a 30% difference in HP

[MeeposFire]

Depends on what you're tanking

A good DM will throw some of everything, in which case it's ALL important

10 vs 14 Con at level 5 is about a 30% difference in HP

Exactly further do not forget how important con saves can be especially to a front liner. This rogue has no con mod and no prof in con saves which can be also problematic if you are close to where a lot of those con saves happen.

Also con affects death from massive damage, stacks with resistance, and helps when affected by things that reduce max HP (since at smaller max HP every loss is felt even more).

Also note that resistance most commonly takes barbarian which requires str and that requires a very different kind of rogue style than what we have.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Rogue/Swashbuckler 5
Half-Elf
STR 8, DEX 18, CON 10, INT 14, WIS 10, CHA 14

Right now there's a Cloak of Protection in the party, but the monk has it. No other magic items (although I want to go look for this sword made of sunlight at the vineyard...).

ETA: I'm a little bit leery of taking a level of draconic sorcerer because we already have on in the party -- "hey bro, turns out we're distantly related!" just seems weird. Plus, I am just not a big dragon fan. But it seems like it lets me get what I want -- an AC bump and a couple cantrips -- in the same level, freeing up my ASIs for other things and not requiring me to go Fighter at all. I'm torn.

You're a swashbuckler, you have no reason to ever be a tank, you hit and you move away.
With your stats you can't ever be a tank anyway, you can't multi into a barbarian or a moon druid, and your Con is really low. Just do what a swashbuckler does: move in, hit, move out. Repeat.

[djreynolds]

I have stated before, Arnie82 is right on, bladesinger for just 2 levels is an easy up on your AC and many goodies, like advantage on acrobatics checks

bladesinger gives you the shield spell as a reaction, when it runs out use uncanny dodge

the only dips available to you are a fighter/ wizard/ sorcerer/ warlock.... and bard

The college of swords is cool and you get a fighting style to boot and its appropriate

You don't need medium armor, you have a reaction for uncanny dodge and fancy foot work lets you leave and you still have cunning action for disengage

You are the striker, land that sneak attack and then move on... pick your strikes.

Don't think tank... think Apache helicopter... that's you... just hanging around, elusive, dangerous

Max out Dex, and take resilient con (12th) sooner than later as failing this save will take you out of a fight.. such as stun and paralysis

For me defensive duelist is best on a fighter/ranger who may lack a use for their reaction and its only good in melee... you have uncanny dodge

Nothing wrong with pure rogue

[Citan]

Hi all!

Well for what most common people here consider tanking (high AC and HP rather than what a high OP person might say but that leads to a longer conversation) a rogue long term has 1 less basic AC versus heavy armor and is missing the potential bonus of a shield.

So first if you want to get that same AC as heavy armor you need to either

1. Find something that can raise your dex to 22 or higher.
2. Pick up medium armor and medium armor master and wear half plate with maxing your dex (for attack). Probably needs to multiclass.
3. Get heavy armor and just accept lower stealth. Also probably takes a multiclass.

I don't understand the reasoning here, could you explain?
AFAIK, the best heavy armor provides 18 AC, whereas...
- Best light armor and 20 DEX provides 17 AC.
- Second best medium armor + 16 DEX + MAM provides 17 AC.
- Best medium armor + 16 AC + MAM gives 18 AC with Stealth disadvantage.

So, where you suggesting either of this step as a way to get better AC BEFORE OP maxes his DEX? I suppose it's that, otherwise I don't understand the benefit... But in means that he sacrifices long-term optimization for earlier bonus, because in the end you have either +1 AC compared to light armor, but disadvantage on Stealth, or exactly the same.

Since Fighter gets a Fighting Style at first level, wouldn't it be better to just take Mariner (if allowed) or Defense (any armor) and stick with light armor? You will end with 18 regardless but you don't hamper mobility or sneaking...



What's a good AC for a semi-tanky melee rogue? We have no real "tank" in the party, just me, a monk, and whatever the land druid summons, but we have lots of control. Right now I have 16, or 17 if I take the cloak of protection back from the monk, and we're level 5 so I just got Uncanny Dodge.

I'm trying to figure out if I should take a one-level fighter dip for a shield and fighting style, or if it makes more sense to just hurry towards Magic Initiate (for BB and Shield) and +2 DEX (in whichever order). We're playing Curse of Strahd so will probably only get to level 10-13 depending on how we do, or I wouldn't fret so much, but there's lots I want to fit in!

Rogue/Swashbuckler 5
Half-Elf
STR 8, DEX 18, CON 10, INT 14, WIS 10, CHA 14

Honestly you have several good ways to up your AC, thanks to your great stats.
If only official books are allowed...
1 dip in Draconic Sorcerer provides "permanent Mage Armor". If won't change your AC right now, but you end with 18 AC once you max your Dex. You also get Shield and Booming Blade, which avoids using a feat just for that.

IF Unearthed Arcana content is allowed and you want to limit the dip as much as possible, you may also consider Shadow Sorcerer. Having a free chance to avoid dropping to 0 on every damage instance (except critical/radiant) is very powerful, even if your chances of succeeding are slim (on characters with Constitution proficiency and/or high CON I find this ability as potentially overpowered as Tunnel Fighter). And you still get Shield + Booming Blade (and later with max DEX you may use Mage Armor).

If you can go 2 levels dipping, obviously Bladesinger is the best choice: bunch of great spells including Shield and Find Familiar, +2 AC and +2 concentration, Booming Blade. Nearly 100% of what you get synergizes with your character.

Anyways, because you have a Dex base build, and because you want to grab some weapon cantrips in the end, I think one dip directly in those options is better than Fighter. YMMV.

[JellyPooga]

As others have said, Swashbucklers with low Str/Con don't make good tank-Rogues. Arcane Trickster with a Barbarian or Fighter dip can Tank better than almost anyone, but Swashbuckler simply doesn't have the tools to get their AC up like an AT does. With low HP, you'll be taking too many hits to last long on the front-line.

It is perfectly possible to have a party with no tank if everyone stays mobile; encouraging your spellcasters to use more battlefield control spells will serve you in better stead than trying to do something that, at the end of the day, you're never going to be that good at.

That said, a 1 lvl dip in Fighter for the Fighting Style and Shield proficiency will bump your AC by +3 off the bat, whatever armour you go decide to wear (medium armour won't increase your AC without taking disadvantage to Stealth, so I don't recommend it; I'm also unsure on whether it might impact your Swashbuckler abilities). That, however, is probably all you're going to get without veering significantly away from Rogue.

[Naanomi]

Swashbucklers with high Con make decent tanks though, having one of the very few 'aggro' type abilities in the game. This isn't your character but I had a fighter 1/swashbuckler X that wore heavy armor and a shield, used shield-mastery to shove people around, and tanked very competitively

[Citan]

That said, a 1 lvl dip in Fighter for the Fighting Style and Shield proficiency will bump your AC by +3 off the bat, whatever armour you go decide to wear
Ouch. Totally forgot only Fighter provided shield proficiency.
Well then OP, forget what I said: Fighter is indeed the best dip for immediate, sustained AC bonus.

[Sir cryosin]

Ouch. Totally forgot only Fighter provided shield proficiency.
Well then OP, forget what I said: Fighter is indeed the best dip for immediate, sustained AC bonus.

I'm AFB but I do believe that ranger also gives shield proficiency. As does barbarian, and paladin. Getting shield proficiency isn't hard. But to op don't play a wall tank. Play a mobile controller tank get booming blade, Sentinel, or any thing that allows you to control the enemy's movement. If your dealing with range enemy's if you can stay right in there face. Just go prone at the end of your turn they'll have disadvantage to hit. Being a striker is a good tank in D&D because they enemy want to get the person's that getting it the most.

[Citan]

I'm AFB but I do believe that ranger also gives shield proficiency. As does barbarian, and paladin. Getting shield proficiency isn't hard. But to op don't play a wall tank. Play a mobile controller tank get booming blade, Sentinel, or any thing that allows you to control the enemy's movement. If your dealing with range enemy's if you can stay right in there face. Just go prone at the end of your turn they'll have disadvantage to hit. Being a striker is a good tank in D&D because they enemy want to get the person's that getting it the most.
I meant "only" in the context of OP. ;) Meaning available multiclass options.
And even if he is playing as most Rogues would fare, by generally staying mobile to avoid being surrounded or such...
- He is still much better in defense than all his friends, so he will have to draw fire quite a bit.
- You also don't want to discount ranged attacks, for which placement is generally irrelevant if you don't have a good place to cover (and if you have too good a cover your friends will be targeted instead).
- Sentinel allows you to stop at most one creature per turn. Clearly not enough by itself to give control to a Rogue.

With that said, your comment made me think about another possibility of a 2-level dip, Paladin.
Although most save or suck spells would be unreliable because of fairly low CHA, OP could benefit everything the Fighter gives, but also boost himself or an ally with Shield of Faith for the toughest fights.
The more I think about it, the more I find it the best choice if OP wants to play with a shield. Although it is a bit more costly, the boost for toughest fights is even greater.

So, recap to OP:
1-dip: Fighter best (if shield), alternative Draconic Sorcerer (if no shield).
2-dip: Paladin (if shield), Bladesinger Wizard (if no shield).

My two cents.
Have fun!

[bid]

- Second best medium armor + 16 DEX + MAM provides 17 AC.
Why second? MAM removes the stealth disadvantage.

[CaptainSarathai]

You'll have good AC, but still won't be a "tank." You don't have any way to stick people to you or punish them for not playing by your rules.
I'd dip Draconic Sorc. Instant AC14+Dex, and you get access to the Shield spell and Booming Blade. Snag Warcaster ASAP. You are now "sticky."
You still have shoddy health, and need a shield from somewhere (or else burn lots of Reactions and Slots on casting it manually) but there you go.
2 levels in Warlock might be better, actually. Go with Fiend for +HP on Kills, get Booming Blade with your cantrip, take Armor of Shadows at 2nd. You can also nab Armor of Agathys or False Life if you think you'll take additional levels in Lock or find some other way to get higher level slots throughout your career.
Rogues like Darkness too, grab Devil's Sight if you want to go that route. Very fluffy.

[Naanomi]

You'll have good AC, but still won't be a "tank." You don't have any way to stick people to you or punish them for not playing by your rules.
Panache, at swashbuckler 9, is one of the few abilities of this type around actually

[gfishfunk]

Simple Ideas through feats:
- Defensive Duelist for reactions to avoid damage. It's only for for a single attack.
- Magic Initiate for Mage Armor, but it has an 8 hour duration.
- 2 Weapon Fighting for a simple +1, but you also get to use a rapier in both hands.

[gfishfunk]

Multiclass:

- Wizard for shield and mage armor world be huge.
- Warlock 2 is not too bad for Invocation Mage Armor, and you can get Hex for additional damage.
- Sorcerer for Mage Armor and Shield, wild magic gives you tides of chaos. You said no to Draconic, which is done. The point is to give you defense so you don't need to worry about how to use other spell slots.
- Fighter 1 gives shield and defense style, netting +3 AC. A bonus action self heal, too.

[MeeposFire]

Hi all!

I don't understand the reasoning here, could you explain?
AFAIK, the best heavy armor provides 18 AC, whereas...
- Best light armor and 20 DEX provides 17 AC.
- Second best medium armor + 16 DEX + MAM provides 17 AC.
- Best medium armor + 16 AC + MAM gives 18 AC with Stealth disadvantage.

So, where you suggesting either of this step as a way to get better AC BEFORE OP maxes his DEX? I suppose it's that, otherwise I don't understand the benefit... But in means that he sacrifices long-term optimization for earlier bonus, because in the end you have either +1 AC compared to light armor, but disadvantage on Stealth, or exactly the same.

Since Fighter gets a Fighting Style at first level, wouldn't it be better to just take Mariner (if allowed) or Defense (any armor) and stick with light armor? You will end with 18 regardless but you don't hamper mobility or sneaking...





MAM at max dex gives the same AC as the best heavy armor with no penalty to stealth. I would boost dex first and stick with light armor until you have maxed dex since I personally I prefer better attack values until you get max dex and then you can take MAM for the potential AC boost (still think MAM should be a half feat but oh well).

So that would be 18 AC for the rogue as a base. As for the fighter part yes I would take defensive or mariner (depending on whether he wants to use a shield or dual wield) for a 19 AC+possible shield. Also note that I mention if you get a late 22 dex or better (from tomes or the like) then it is better to stick with light armor (though I personally never rely on that).

As for draconic or mage armor that certainly looks a lot better if you know you will never get magic armor. Once you get a set of +1 armor of your favored type you get no benefit from that feature anymore and if you find a +2 set well then you are permanently behind. So that looks a lot better in low magic item campaigns and less good in others.

Shield is a good defensive spell of course and can save you a number of hits however this character will be very all or nothing with the low con and the lower HD from taking the spell casting class the HP will be very low for the job and so if you do get hit (say from a crit) you will be in some real trouble.

[Arkhios]

No doubt it's been said already, but here's my two copper pieces for the matter.

As a pure rogue, for minimal investment Moderately Armored feat gives you the edge over normal rogue proficiencies by letting you use medium armor - and more importantly - shield. Although with dex 20 you'd still have equally good AC with half-plate as you would have with only studded leather (AC 17). Which is why you'll want to use shield as well, to get AC 19 either way. If you take Medium Armor Master as well, you'll get as much as AC 20 with half-plate (medium > light).
1 level fighter dip is ideal for you if you want even more than that: Fighter dip, Defense style + Medium Armor Master saves you one feat and nets you AC 21.

As for what is "enough" for tankish character? At the very least 18, I'd say.