Rogue Loves B&E, Stealing, Pick-Pocketing, and the rest of it. How do deal with it.

[killem2]

So I have a character in our evil campaign, (way of way wicked). He is a level 10 rogue. He loves to steal stuff. He bought two:

Insistent Doorknocker


Insistent Doorknocker
Source Ultimate Equipment pg. 305 (Amazon)
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 9th
Slot none; Price 5,000 gp; Weight 2 lbs.
Description
This iron gargoyle face holds an iron ring in its mouth. Once per day, when the flat back of the gargoyle face is placed against a wall, floor, or ceiling, it fuses into place, creating a usable door and penetrating the space beyond up to 1 foot as if using passwall. Speaking the command word again ends the passwall effect, returns the surface to its previous doorless shape, and releases the doorknocker from the surface.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, passwall; Cost 2,500 gp

He has a very good Sleight of Hand check as well.

And none of this is a problem. I like that he uses his abilities. My problem is, he just keeps going and going and going. He will go from house to store, sometime I will throw an alib alarm spell, or a shop owner in full armor (endurance) to be ready for an attack. Yada yada.

But when it starts making the turns lop-sided and he is taking 20-30 minutes of time sometimes longer, it eats into all players time as well.

I just want to know how to properly keep a true thief engaged, and rewarded but not dominate play time.

[Darth Ultron]

Well, naturally, you should just talk to the player and tell them to stop. Explain that a group game does not have room for a solo game.


You might just want to add loot to the main game, so the player can loot with the group. Sure robbing homes and shops is fun......but not as much fun as an ''Ocean's 11 heist''.

[zergling.exe]

Only play out the ones that would actually be challenging, and the rest are relegated to 'here's the loot'. Limit how much they are allowed to do based on what everyone else is doing. If they complain, tell them you have to be fair to the others as well. Everyone needs spotlight time and all that.

[Keltest]

You could find other diversions for your thief that the other party members can participate in, like tomb robbing. Make it clear that he is getting chump change from these houses he is hitting, and that the real treasure is out hidden in places that he cant get into by himself.

Or, as mentioned, just tell him to quit wasting the group's time running solo missions.

[Martimus Prime]

One would think that he'd be building up quite the following in terms of vigilantes, angry victims, and law enforcement. The resulting random encounters are left as an exercise to the reader (and a problem the rest of the group will also have to deal with, seeing as they're now accomplices).

[Stealth Marmot]

Since we are in the Order of the Stick forums, let's use an Order of the Stick example: Haley Starshine.

Haley is a queen of B&E and Origin of PCs showed us she was in the middle of doing it for a good deal of time before joining up with Roy.

Now the question is, WHY did she join up with Roy?

Answer: Her dad was being held and she needed a LOT of money and the thieve's guild was taking far too much of it, so she left the guild proper and set out to make MORE money via adventuring.

Did this stop her from being a thief? Nope. Did she eventually learn to not steal from her friends and started to show the G end of her CG alignment? Absolutely.

The next question is, how do we get that sort of outcome from YOUR little B&E expert?

Simple. Give him a goal. A reason. Something to strive for. Have him see reasons for NOT engaging in these tactics. After all, 95% of all houses won't have stuff for him to steal, as most houses will keep most of their valuables locked up for this particular reason. The rest of the houses will have guards, traps, wards, etc.

When the character has nothing else to do, nothing to strive for, no attachments, then they can do whatever they feel like. But if a character has reasons, goals, attachments, and people that he cares about, he's not going to risk breaking into flophouses in order to steal some copper and get the whole crew into trouble along with him. Not to mention local thieves guilds (which need not even be a guild, local gangs and mafias are enough) will want to talk to him.

Sure you COULD strongarm the character with guilds, guards, even a geas cast by a rather pissed off wizard he broke into the house of, but the better solution is to make it so he doesn't WANT to spend his time breaking and entering because he has other concerns, bigger fish to fry, and spending his days trying to open a house up to find 2 silver plated candlesticks worth 1gp will be a waste of his time and effort.

tl;dr - He's BORED! Give him a goal of some sort.

[John Longarrow]

Or you could break out the "Rat Bastard DM's handbook" and mess with the player.... Let him find a house that is infected with plague. Mom, Dad, and the other kids are all dead but little Amy is huddled in the room he enters, crying into her soiled garments. She looks up and begs him to help her "Wake up mommy and daddy". Amy hasn't eaten in a couple days, is terrified, and is the picture of helplessness.

Yes, this is a "Mess with the player" moment. I'm posting it with tongue firmly planted in cheek to give you an idea of what you could toss in based on what you know of the player. Give him a totally rational and reasonable situation to find, just not the one he's expecting.

[Droopy McCool]

tl;dr - He's BORED! Give him a goal of some sort.

This is the problem. We have the "steals time from the game steals stuff in the game" player, and I can tell you, he's very bored when we game. I don't know why, but he limits himself as far as never roleplaying a character or paying attention unless he's doing his thing.

However, your player may want the things Marmot mentions: reasons, goals, and attachments. If you tried giving him this already and HE rejected it like a baby does a spoonful of food, then he is bored with gaming (à la my friend). At least the RP in RPG doesn't interest him. Sad, I know, but it happens. Hopefully not your case.

McCool

[killem2]

I'll share a bit of today's story.

He also goes on these theft rampages I've noticed when I've slighted him. He got put in his place by a an NPC today because this wealthy NPC who controls most of the law enforcement saved him from certain death, but belittled him as well. (Wealthy NPC is a stuck up high elf while Player is a drow).

NPC said don't do that again, I can't afford to keep you out of trouble. And after he was able to pillage three rooms, two bedrooms with very wealthy bed canopy (gold bed posts), which he took. And a nice store room where rat poison was stored, as well as general cleaning supplies. He vandalized it, and took the poison and poured it into the well nearest to NPC house.

This is also not the first time he has aggravated this high elf. Unfortunately for the high elf, he is ordered by a higher power than himself to deal with the party and be their connections liaison.

After I told him there were no other rooms to pillage he want to go to the alchemist in town, break in with his new door, and try and steal more poison. After he got in, I set off an alarm spell, he ran away and hid. Then he went to another store and another one. And it wasn't until I finally asked the other players if they took off back to the hide out that he finally conceded and went with them.

Yet, at the bazaar that was going on earlier that same day, he didn't feel compelled at all to go raiding tents. He used black market connections and bought things like a normal person.


I have been changing things up everytime they go back to town as well. In addition to the evil crap they are already doing at an old spire they have revitalized, the townsfolk are generally getting more and more worked up. Shops are closing sooner, people are going inside sooner, gaurds are coming out in larger numbers, parties for the rich have shut down. Because of what the party has done inside and outside of town and yes, what this little Drow Rogue has done personally in targeting specific high profile noble people at drunken parties while in disguise.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I'll share a bit of today's story.

He also goes on these theft rampages I've noticed when I've slighted him. He got put in his place by a an NPC today because this wealthy NPC who controls most of the law enforcement saved him from certain death, but belittled him as well. (Wealthy NPC is a stuck up high elf while Player is a drow).

NPC said don't do that again, I can't afford to keep you out of trouble. And after he was able to pillage three rooms, two bedrooms with very wealthy bed canopy (gold bed posts), which he took. And a nice store room where rat poison was stored, as well as general cleaning supplies. He vandalized it, and took the poison and poured it into the well nearest to NPC house.

This is also not the first time he has aggravated this high elf. Unfortunately for the high elf, he is ordered by a higher power than himself to deal with the party and be their connections liaison.

After I told him there were no other rooms to pillage he want to go to the alchemist in town, break in with his new door, and try and steal more poison. After he got in, I set off an alarm spell, he ran away and hid. Then he went to another store and another one. And it wasn't until I finally asked the other players if they took off back to the hide out that he finally conceded and went with them.

Yet, at the bazaar that was going on earlier that same day, he didn't feel compelled at all to go raiding tents. He used black market connections and bought things like a normal person.

Sounds like he's got a GM vs. Player mentality. This is very much something you need to discuss with him out of the game. If his response to consequences for his actions is to be a ****head, he's not going to respond any other way to any in-game ways to corral him.

[Crake]

Or you could break out the "Rat Bastard DM's handbook" and mess with the player.... Let him find a house that is infected with plague. Mom, Dad, and the other kids are all dead but little Amy is huddled in the room he enters, crying into her soiled garments. She looks up and begs him to help her "Wake up mommy and daddy". Amy hasn't eaten in a couple days, is terrified, and is the picture of helplessness.

Yes, this is a "Mess with the player" moment. I'm posting it with tongue firmly planted in cheek to give you an idea of what you could toss in based on what you know of the player. Give him a totally rational and reasonable situation to find, just not the one he's expecting.

This is for a way of the wicked campaign, the players are lawful evil to their core, so he would probably just not care at all.

You could just remind the player that stealing a lot of stuff and bringing negative attention to the group as his targets seek him to get their stuff back would be counter-productive to their end goal. Asmodeus admires ambition, but petty theft for handfuls of gold is pathetic for a level 10 character.

[killem2]

This is for a way of the wicked campaign, the players are lawful evil to their core, so he would probably just not care at all.

You could just remind the player that stealing a lot of stuff and bringing negative attention to the group as his targets seek him to get their stuff back would be counter-productive to their end goal. Asmodeus admires ambition, but petty theft for handfuls of gold is pathetic for a level 10 character.

What's worse, it's not just lawful evil. I just did no chaotic, no good alignments. :mitd: He is NE.

However, I may have a talk with him about alignments again. It seems rather anti-NE on a party level, and very much against the blood pact he signed, to put the party at risk. Because even though his alignment may drive this behavior, I thought it wasn't at the detriment of the party.

[Pleh]

This seems a perfect example of specific group dynamic. There is very little people can do to help since so few of us know the person in question at all.

If I were in your place, I would use a combination of these recommendations.
1. Talk with him first out of game. Outline the problems this is causing for the group and ask him to explain how you can help him have more fun with the group. If it's player vs GM mentality, just ask him what he wants from you and have him phrase it in a solution that benefits the group.
2. If he starts doing it again, play along for a bit. Switch back to the rest of the characters after he finishes a house. (I love the word "meanwhile")
3. Next house, throw a curveball. Switch back to the party.
4. Next house, just skip to the loot. Switch back to the party.
5. Next house, no loot here. Just wasted time. Switch back to the party.
6. Next house, rat plague. Wasted time and reminder to role play. Switch back to the party.
7. If he is still at it, time to stop and have another OoC talk. Remind him the group doesn't have time for both stories and he needs to rejoin the party or you can't continue his story.
8. If he persists despite warnings, time to retire his character (the law catches up with him). Maybe talk it through with the group, but he needs to either leave the group or make a character that plays with the other PCs.

[Elkad]

Put the Thieves Guild on him.

Conducting operations in a guild member's territory.
Stealing from houses/people who have a valid protection contract with the Guild.
Failure to tithe to the Guild.
Use of unauthorized fences.

Whether they discipline him themselves, or just shadow him and call in the Watch doesn't really matter.

Oh, if other party members have "gifts" from him, you can pop them for "possession of stolen property", to get him in trouble with his own group as well.

[killem2]

Put the Thieves Guild on him.

Conducting operations in a guild member's territory.
Stealing from houses/people who have a valid protection contract with the Guild.
Failure to tithe to the Guild.
Use of unauthorized fences.

Whether they discipline him themselves, or just shadow him and call in the Watch doesn't really matter.

Oh, if other party members have "gifts" from him, you can pop them for "possession of stolen property", to get him in trouble with his own group as well.

Oh damn, this is clever. I like this. They already ran assassinations for the merchants guild just last week.


This seems a perfect example of specific group dynamic. There is very little people can do to help since so few of us know the person in question at all.

If I were in your place, I would use a combination of these recommendations.
1. Talk with him first out of game. Outline the problems this is causing for the group and ask him to explain how you can help him have more fun with the group. If it's player vs GM mentality, just ask him what he wants from you and have him phrase it in a solution that benefits the group.
2. If he starts doing it again, play along for a bit. Switch back to the rest of the characters after he finishes a house. (I love the word "meanwhile")
3. Next house, throw a curveball. Switch back to the party.
4. Next house, just skip to the loot. Switch back to the party.
5. Next house, no loot here. Just wasted time. Switch back to the party.
6. Next house, rat plague. Wasted time and reminder to role play. Switch back to the party.
7. If he is still at it, time to stop and have another OoC talk. Remind him the group doesn't have time for both stories and he needs to rejoin the party or you can't continue his story.
8. If he persists despite warnings, time to retire his character (the law catches up with him). Maybe talk it through with the group, but he needs to either leave the group or make a character that plays with the other PCs.

He has mentioned interest in becoming an inquisitor. Maybe this is the time to consider that.

[Elkad]

Oh damn, this is clever. I like this. They already ran assassinations for the merchants guild just last week.

Have the Theives Guild hire the rest of the group as enforcers to stop a non-guild member?

[Robvox]

Evil Campaigns are not easy to balance. A thief running amuck is not hard to remedy. There is definitely things you can do to dissuade him. The town elders are tired of all this lawlessness and hire a "professional" to deal with him. This "professional" is extremely powerful and there is no doubt he can take care of this problem. He is an experienced adventurer (good aligned) and has all of the benefits and perks that high level adventurers enjoy (magic items, powerful spells, heavy weight allies, etc.)
The local thieves guild was an excellent idea.
That aside, lost or stolen magic items can put a bit more difficulty in his activities (take his stuff away).

[Pleh]

Evil Campaigns are not easy to balance. A thief running amuck is not hard to remedy. There is definitely things you can do to dissuade him. The town elders are tired of all this lawlessness and hire a "professional" to deal with him. This "professional" is extremely powerful and there is no doubt he can take care of this problem. He is an experienced adventurer (good aligned) and has all of the benefits and perks that high level adventurers enjoy (magic items, powerful spells, heavy weight allies, etc.)
The local thieves guild was an excellent idea.
That aside, lost or stolen magic items can put a bit more difficulty in his activities (take his stuff away).

If the problem really is a player vs GM mentality, you can't railroad the problem out. That's like putting out fire with gasoline. Yes, you can do it, but you're just as likely to burn everything down trying to do it.

You need to defuse the situation. The problem is he feels powerless in a fantasy game, so he grabs for some form of control. Give the player the power of choice and demonstrate that the behavior he is using hurts the other players as well as the GM.

Giving reasonable consequences to his actions validates his decisions, gutting that sense he doesn't have control. Making his consequences insurmountable destroys that empowering effect he needs. If the answer is that his character is gonna get sniped by circumstances bigger than himself, the thief player needs to sign off on that move so it isn't being done *to him*.

The thieves Guild idea is an excellent idea.

[killem2]

Evil Campaigns are not easy to balance. A thief running amuck is not hard to remedy. There is definitely things you can do to dissuade him. The town elders are tired of all this lawlessness and hire a "professional" to deal with him. This "professional" is extremely powerful and there is no doubt he can take care of this problem. He is an experienced adventurer (good aligned) and has all of the benefits and perks that high level adventurers enjoy (magic items, powerful spells, heavy weight allies, etc.)
The local thieves guild was an excellent idea.
That aside, lost or stolen magic items can put a bit more difficulty in his activities (take his stuff away).

In general I would agree but this AP has taken a lot of the guess work out by requiring no one can be chaotic or good. And your suggestions are noted. It could be that I am just a bit early on this. Some of the other players have already begun spreading misinformation about things so the locals are getting more and more worried. This could play against his actions as well.

I mainly wanted to make sure I nip this thing quick before they get to an even bigger city.


Sounds like he's got a GM vs. Player mentality. This is very much something you need to discuss with him out of the game. If his response to consequences for his actions is to be a ****head, he's not going to respond any other way to any in-game ways to corral him.

I probably will try some of the more passive actions first before having to go directly to him. I already turned him away from a couple houses because I said the doors are barred from the inside.


This is the problem. We have the "steals time from the game steals stuff in the game" player, and I can tell you, he's very bored when we game. I don't know why, but he limits himself as far as never roleplaying a character or paying attention unless he's doing his thing.



However, your player may want the things Marmot mentions: reasons, goals, and attachments. If you tried giving him this already and HE rejected it like a baby does a spoonful of food, then he is bored with gaming (à la my friend). At least the RP in RPG doesn't interest him. Sad, I know, but it happens. Hopefully not your case.

McCool

He can get very bored if we are not in combat and his character isn't directly being part of the action. The problem is that sometimes he is very blunt, rude, and careless when dealing with NPCs that the party is not exactly interested in pissing off at the given moment.

I haven't given him goals yet. I may casually ask him tonight what he sees his rogue doing.


Or you could break out the "Rat Bastard DM's handbook" and mess with the player.... Let him find a house that is infected with plague. Mom, Dad, and the other kids are all dead but little Amy is huddled in the room he enters, crying into her soiled garments. She looks up and begs him to help her "Wake up mommy and daddy". Amy hasn't eaten in a couple days, is terrified, and is the picture of helplessness.

Yes, this is a "Mess with the player" moment. I'm posting it with tongue firmly planted in cheek to give you an idea of what you could toss in based on what you know of the player. Give him a totally rational and reasonable situation to find, just not the one he's expecting.


If it comes to this, which may be needed if he doesn't change, I'll consider it. I'm not above killing a player's character if they are just being out right distruptive and not being played as per their alignment and background was given to me. He's already shifted from Lawful Evil to Neutral Evil.

I think if he keeps this streak of serial robberies, coup de grace, vandlism. Some of it is in favor of the party and thier master. Such as carving asmodeus symbols into the dead. It is a good thing to let the people know that they are not safe.


If the problem really is a player vs GM mentality, you can't railroad the problem out. That's like putting out fire with gasoline. Yes, you can do it, but you're just as likely to burn everything down trying to do it.

You need to defuse the situation. The problem is he feels powerless in a fantasy game, so he grabs for some form of control. Give the player the power of choice and demonstrate that the behavior he is using hurts the other players as well as the GM.

Giving reasonable consequences to his actions validates his decisions, gutting that sense he doesn't have control. Making his consequences insurmountable destroys that empowering effect he needs. If the answer is that his character is gonna get sniped by circumstances bigger than himself, the thief player needs to sign off on that move so it isn't being done *to him*.

The thieves Guild idea is an excellent idea.

Well, he has quite a great deal of power. He is the sole person who gets to torture people for information, he has a personal follower who is actually a torturer (class archtype), he is the core builder of traps in the tower, has offered up great suggestions for roleplaying, and over all is a pretty powerful melee combatant. He is also the go to guy when we need to coup de grace people lol.

I think rather than him feeling powerless, I think he doesn't like to feel powerless in the face of enemies he finds inferior. I say this, because after his last death by phantasmal killer from a nightmare horse, he wanted me to give him the following disadvantage with no perk in return:

You have developed Euqine-Phobiba. You have developed a serious fear of any creature that is horse or horse-like. If you come with in visual of a horse-like being you must make a will save of DC 19. If you pass, you are shaken until they leave your site, but you can approach them.

If you fail you cannot approach with in 30 ft of the creature. This effect will stop after they leave your visual site.

[killem2]

Update: I had asked him the following:

Ok, so I gotta question about what drae'rel wants from life. When you go on your thieving sprees is there a goal in mind? Is it simply money? Is it to leave a message? Or is it simply out of the need to steal to know that you can still do it? And the vandalizing of the bar, the attempted murder of the shop owner, and general anarchy I'm trying to determine what Drae'rel wants out of this. Typically an NE character on a personal level would greatly enjoy doing any of these if they will advance yourself. But a Neutral based character will also toe the line of his party. Think, son's of anarchy or gangs in general. They have a very N/E mentality about how they conduct themselves. They don't follow the law unless it lets them get what they want, they just work around it, or break it when they won't get caught but not at the risk of their comrades.

The reason I ask, is because I would like to figure out how to manage those times you want to steal stuff, because in reality I can't have a lot of real time dedicated to what is in essence a solo game. But i also want these skills you have to be used, and I want it to be entertaining. So if I know what you are looking to get out of the character I know how to mold to that.


What he replied.
My character wants money to better his equipment to better serve his party. He also was pissed as **** about the baron (this is the NPC high elf) and the loss of face from the failed assassination. Since he should be the one best equipped for it. (Which is pretty much true, the check for the assassination action of the group was a dex check + bonus from the organization but he rolled a 1, by rights he should be rotting in jail but the Baron released him.)

[Stealth Marmot]

What he replied.
My character wants money to better his equipment to better serve his party. He also was pissed as **** about the baron (this is the NPC high elfand the loss of face from the failed assassination. Since he should be the one best equipped for it. (Which is pretty much true, the check for the assassination action of the group was a dex check + bonus from the organization but he rolled a 1, by rights he should be rotting in jail but the Baron released him.)

Slip him a rumor about a badass artifact that would give him the edge in a fight, perhaps a lucky talisman of some sort that allows him to reroll a single roll daily. But it's deep in some cave, or forest, or ruin, whatever.

Boom. Quest for the group.

[Red Fel]

What he replied.
My character wants money to better his equipment to better serve his party. He also was pissed as **** about the baron (this is the NPC high elfand the loss of face from the failed assassination. Since he should be the one best equipped for it. (Which is pretty much true, the check for the assassination action of the group was a dex check + bonus from the organization but he rolled a 1, by rights he should be rotting in jail but the Baron released him.)

So, reading between the lines, he commits robberies to buy better gear and to spite your NPCs. The NPCs that keep him out of trouble with the law.

First question: Has he been using his gains to buy better gear? Has he been putting any of it towards the party, or is it entirely selfish? If he's taking time away from the party, getting the party into trouble, and only spending the gains on himself, it raises the question: Why is the party keeping this liability around? Heck, why is he with them? He doesn't need to be. And if he isn't spending the money the way he claims, then he just lied to your face - that's a separate conversation.

Second question: Why do these NPCs keep saving him? At a certain point, why not let him rot? And don't tell me it's because of the AP; that's a rubbish answer. He has plot armor or he doesn't. If he does, if you've given him plot armor, you're to blame; deal with it. If he doesn't, it's time for his in-character conduct to have in-character consequences. It's my understanding that this AP involves Evil (or non-Good) PCs trying to accomplish their sinister goals without being captured or destroyed. He's not doing a very good job of staying below the radar; it's time to get noticed.

[killem2]

So, reading between the lines, he commits robberies to buy better gear and to spite your NPCs. The NPCs that keep him out of trouble with the law.

Well, sort of. He was upset that he was talked down to by the NPC who had every right and in an RP sense would, talk down to a drow who just cost him money, (3,000 gp) and possibly his sterling reputation around town. The baron certainly doesn't care if you have evil deeds going on, but he expects you to do it with a professional manner.



First question: Has he been using his gains to buy better gear?

Yes. He has been wheeling and dealing on the black market and using his connections actions (separate mechanic the AP has for running an organization outside of leadership)



Has he been putting any of it towards the party, or is it entirely selfish?

What he steals, has been for him. Though, in the character's and possibly the player's eyes, he sees it as a greater good situation. But at my table we have a pretty open conversation about what characters know. And if a character doesn't want the party to know about his dealings he is to message me in private about what he wants to do. In these example I've shared, it is assumed that he has already told the party what he has done. So it is public knowledge at this point.



If he's taking time away from the party, getting the party into trouble, and only spending the gains on himself, it raises the question: Why is the party keeping this liability around?

I wouldn't say he is getting the party in trouble up to this point, only because the baron who is a lap dog for the Thorn (BBEG who runs the show in the back ground) will threaten certain death to the Baron if he doesn't help our party.

With that said, there is a Blood Pact between the players which reads:

Behold on this day __________ in the eighth age
of this world a perpetual Compact is made between Cardinal
Adrastus Thorn (hereafter the Master) and those
who would be bound to him as his acolytes (hereafter
the Bound). Both the Master and the Bound shall
hold fast and true to this Compact through all trial and
tribulation. By blood and soul the Bound commit to the
Compact and swear that it shall never be undone.
The Bound shall know and understand the Four
Loyalties.
The First Loyalty is to their patron and god – mighty
Asmodeus, first among the fallen, prince of the nine
hells, our father below. They shall do all that can be
done to further his worship and his glory.
The Second Loyalty is to their master – He who is
called the Cardinal Adrastus Thorn, High Priest of Asmodeus
in Talingarde. They shall do the Master no harm
and obey his every commandment as long as those commandments
do not clash with their First Loyalty.
The Third Loyalty is to their companions – the other
Bound who serve alongside them. The Bound shall deal
with each other fairly and honorably as long as doing so
does not clash with their first or second loyalties. All
treasure, wealth and reward garnered in their exploits
will be equally shared with all of the Bound who aided
in its acquisition.
The Fourth Loyalty is to themselves – for Asmodeus
is the Lord of Ambition and all who serve him should
strive to become great and powerful in his service as
long as doing so does not clash with their first, second
or third loyalties. By their weakness, ye shall know the
unworthy.
The Bound swear that they cleave to and uphold the
Four Loyalties even in the face of death and damnation.
The Master swears that as long as the Four Loyalties
are upheld, he shall reward the Bound as they deserve
for their deeds.
Thus it is written, and thus it shall be.
We being of sound mind and free will do so swear
and let they who violates this Compact know all the
wrath of Hell unending.
Signed

That is what they agreed to. So technically by his blood contract with thorn and asmodeus, he and he alone got the ill-gotten gains.




Heck, why is he with them? He doesn't need to be.

Because he is bounded to be part of their team. See above.



And if he isn't spending the money the way he claims, then he just lied to your face - that's a separate conversation.

It would be hard to lie to my face, as we play together in person and I know everything they do. But regardless, no he is not lying.



Second question: Why do these NPCs keep saving him? At a certain point, why not let him rot? And don't tell me it's because of the AP; that's a rubbish answer. He has plot armor or he doesn't.

It was only the Baron who saved him. Because the baron was scared into service because of what Thorn holds over the barons head. However The next week after this happened, a silver dragon actually killed the baron. So their safety net just went by by. And as a separate note, if the AP says he saves them, he saves them. That's not a rubbish answer. If the AP had said, The Baron simply lets them have free room and board then that's all they would have gotten. The Baron was a powerful ally and because of that, you were to show how powerful he was by doing these deed for the party.

Now that he is dead, it's going to get a lot more interesting. (they did have one chance to save the baron with a diplomacy check according to the AP and they failed)



If he does, if you've given him plot armor, you're to blame; deal with it.

He had some plot armor but not because he was worthy to the plot. He and his party were all equally protected, but they have taken that for granted a little bit. This is in thanks to the baron.



If he doesn't, it's time for his in-character conduct to have in-character consequences.

And aside from the topic at hand, the party is about to receive some consequences of their evil actions very soon.



It's my understanding that this AP involves Evil (or non-Good) PCs trying to accomplish their sinister goals without being captured or destroyed. He's not doing a very good job of staying below the radar; it's time to get noticed.

And I do agree. Thorn has woven a very complex system of protections to ensure master plan's go as needed, but it's not always a promised out come as we have seen.

This entire topic is based on me coming for advice early. They are only at the cusp of what their dastardly deeds have caused, and they are not even done with it yet.

[Jack_McSnatch]

Rogues always have more fun. It's the truth. I've found that (trying to) devote as much time to the other players keeps everyone happy. Throw in an arena fight for the beat sticks, a mysterious book or something for the casters, stuff like that. Let them use some of their lesser touched skills. If you can't think of something material, do some roleplay.

Sure maybe it's a group story, but groups are typically made of a bunch of people who all have their own stories and their own loose ends to tie up. Even paladins have skeletons in their closets. Don't curb the rogue for doing what rogues do, just try to devote that same amount of time to everyone. It'll make a more interesting story, give the players a tighter bond with their character, as well as everyone else's, and your players will be talking about that game for a long time.

EDIT: I confess, I didn't read the whole thread when I posted this. Now that I have, this guy sounds like an ass. You may wanna have a talk with him outside game.

[killem2]

Rogues always have more fun. It's the truth. I've found that (trying to) devote as much time to the other players keeps everyone happy. Throw in an arena fight for the beat sticks, a mysterious book or something for the casters, stuff like that. Let them use some of their lesser touched skills. If you can't think of something material, do some roleplay.

Sure maybe it's a group story, but groups are typically made of a bunch of people who all have their own stories and their own loose ends to tie up. Even paladins have skeletons in their closets. Don't curb the rogue for doing what rogues do, just try to devote that same amount of time to everyone. It'll make a more interesting story, give the players a tighter bond with their character, as well as everyone else's, and your players will be talking about that game for a long time.

EDIT: I confess, I didn't read the whole thread when I posted this. Now that I have, this guy sounds like an ass. You may wanna have a talk with him outside game.

I'm starting to think it is less of him being an ass and more of him not understanding his in game actions. He plays a wizard in Mummy's mask and he plays pretty low key and quiet there.

[Stealth Marmot]

The baron certainly doesn't care if you have evil deeds going on, but he expects you to do it with a professional manner.


Well gee, he just lost my vote in the next election then.

[killem2]

Well gee, he just lost my vote in the next election then.

I'm not sure what ever plane of existence his soul went to, is too keen of his actions either lol.

[prufock]

When players want to do repetitive solo stuff, do it off screen. If he's constantly robbing folks, it just happens. You don't need to play out every thing that he does. What I'd do is roll d20 each day he does his thieving thing. A score of 2-19 is multiplied by some gold value that you feel is balanced, fair, and appropriate. On a 1, something bad happens. On a 20, something great happens.

[FocusWolf413]

Well gee, he just lost my vote in the next election then.

And he just gained my vote. Chicago politics.

[killem2]

So, here is what I have planned:



I love the idea that a thieve's guild is onto our evil little drow. The twist however, I'm going to make the guild ran mostly of Neutral and Good aligned characters. An organization of people who aren't quite vile or brave enough to be evil but scoff enough at Talingarde's absurd obsession with being Lawful Good to warrant it.

Since I know after this next week happens (not real time) there is a cold spurt of where nothing happens. Nothing attacks them, no one messed with them. And thus they will probably go to town. Actually they will almost certainly go to town. And as always when they decide to listen to rumors I'm going to have 10 of them ready to go and one of them will be:

A trio of shady but apparently disgruntled Thieves guild members talk a bit to much about a huge score that is available since the Baron has passed on but the power's that be are shutting it down and need more man power to pull off what they agree to be the heist of the century!

So, I was going to get all the pathfinder society level 7 pre gen characters that have a stealth skill and actually setup a real heist, but in the end it will be a trap. Regardless if it is just him that gets caught or the entire party. They are not happy about this evil bastard messing up their happy homes!