Necro/Warlock Class Help

[kalos72]

Hey all,

I am going to start a new character and I would like to try a lock type, something master of the undead type. I have never played one, at all, so this is completely new.

The campaign is generall 3.5 but we are not bound by many rules as far as class/race/template so all options are on the table however I really dont like that 1 of these/2 of this/4 of the other type builds. One/two classes are prefered but if there is a super reason to I guess I am open to t. :)

Any suggestions are welcome...

[Virdish]

A straight classes warlock is going to be hard to pull off as a necrolock. There is the alternative of running a cleric/ warlock/ Eldritch Disciple build.

[John Longarrow]

What type of undead are you hoping to make/control?

[Troacctid]

There are some decent necromantic invocations. The Dead Walk is the main one you'd care about. But generally, warlocks can hit the flavor beats, but wizards, clerics, and dread necromancers are going to do a much better job mechanically.

[kalos72]

Not sure what type, are there some classes that do better then others?

What do mean about wizards doing a better job? Of controlling undead?

[Virdish]

Not sure what type, are there some classes that do better then others?

What do mean about wizards doing a better job? Of controlling undead?

Warlocks have very little support in being a necromancer. They just aren't equiped to be an effective necromancer on their own. Wizards get access to awesome spells, animate dead, create undead/greater, animate dread warrior, and others while Warlocks only get the dead walk for their raising abilities. Clerics and dread necro's get access to rebuking and the dread necro even gets an increased command pool. Overall warlock is outshined on the necromancy game by these classes which is why I suggested Eldritch disciple. You get the cool theme of the warlock but you get access to the toys that the cleric has at his disposal.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If controlling undead is what you want, dread necromancer is where it's at. Their 8th level class feature makes thier ability just plain -better- than the competition.

[John Longarrow]

The one place warlock shines above other classes when it comes to raising is the dead walk. Any corpse can be raised as a mindless undead any time. If you have a thousand bodies to work with you can just keep bringing them up. This is ONLY good in situations where you will have a massive number of bodies to work with and it creates the weakest kind of undead, but in some special cases it can be really fun.

NOTE: Unless you are part of an army you probably won't have the numbers of bodies to make it worth while.

[kalos72]

So it appears, dread necro it is.

What's the best dip or PrC to compliment the undead master theme? Anything psionic work well?

[Yawgmoth]

So it appears, dread necro it is.

What's the best dip or PrC to compliment the undead master theme? Anything psionic work well? Psionics have exactly zero to do with necromancy. There's a couple feats & powers in CPsi that deal with negative energy, that's as close as you get and is emphatically not what you want to be wasting your energy on. Honestly DN gets so much good stuff that you don't really want to dip/PrC at all, but if you're just craving something then I'd suggest the Pale Master from Libris Mortis because some of the touch effects are very nice and getting Animate Dead 1/day as a spell-like is shiny. See if you can get your DM to let it be a 9 level PrC (or at the very least, 10/10 CL prog) because some idiot at WotC thought that it was really cool to make the first level give you absolutely nothing there.

As far as feats go, Tomb-Tainted Soul is a must-have, and I'd suggest that getting DMM: Fell Animate is another thing you should be grabbing ASAP (assuming your DM isn't a pedantic ass) so you can actually animate some dead before level eight. Or see if they'll let you have Animate Dead as a level 2 or 3 spell. As fun as DN is, they really dropped the ball there.

[Troacctid]

No need for any dip. Dread necromancer works great as a single-class build. In fact, since Undead Mastery only scales with your class level, you're actually incentivized not to prestige.


As far as feats go, Tomb-Tainted Soul is a must-have, and I'd suggest that getting DMM: Fell Animate is another thing you should be grabbing ASAP (assuming your DM isn't a pedantic ass) so you can actually animate some dead before level eight. Or see if they'll let you have Animate Dead as a level 2 or 3 spell. As fun as DN is, they really dropped the ball there.
DMM very explicitly only works with divine spells, but you can be an Illumian and use naenhoon with arcane spells just fine.

You can still summon and command undead before level 8. If you really want to come online that early, you have to be a death master.

[Virdish]

So it appears, dread necro it is.

What's the best dip or PrC to compliment the undead master theme? Anything psionic work well?

For PRC's I would suggest something that gives you access to animate dead without the cost of the onyx. That onyx cost get's pretty extreme pretty quickly. A two level dip into Pale Master will get you this. There are others but Pale Master is the one that comes to mind. Cleric is also a strong one level dip as it nets you access to two domain abilities. Shining star here is of course Deathbound. Though at that point you are losing two caster levels. You might also want to stick with Pale Master if you are looking to become undead (sort of) also their Touch attack at 10th is awesome so here is a sample build

Cleric 1/Dread Necromancer 9/Pale Master 10
Domains: Deathbound, Necromancy

consider timing on the 8th level of dread necromancer since you gain Advanced learning which if delayed can allow you to grab a decent necromancy spell from another list.

Another build with less Pale master and more Dread Necromancer

Cleric 1/Dread Necromancer 6/ Pale Master 2/ Dread Necromancer + 11
Again you are picking up Deathbound and Necromancy domains. With this build I would suggest being a necropolitan so that you can heal yourself out of combat. You could take tomb-tainted soul if you still want a constitution score though.


EDIT: As others have said though DN 20 is a perfectly legitimate build and actually what I would suggest Though Pale master is a decent dip so final suggestion
Dread Necromancer 6/Pale Master 2/Dread Necromancer +12

[Yawgmoth]

DMM very explicitly only works with divine spells Yeah this is that pedantry I was talking about. Divine Metamagic was printed before there even was a class with both arcane casting and rebuke undead, so the only way you'd ever even think of using DMM on arcane spells would be to multiclass. Makes sense from a certain (dumb) point of view to say "hey no 1-level cleric dip to DMM your wizard spells", but when your arcane spells and rebukes are native to the same class, that line of reasoning falls flat.


You can still summon and command undead before level 8. If you really want to come online that early, you have to be a death master.
Like I said, they dropped the ball hard. Summoning undead is garbage, and command undead requires undead to first be around. You shouldn't have to spend anywhere between 60-100% of a typical game's lifespan waiting to "come online". The concept is "undead creating necromancer", the mechanics should give you a way to do that immediately. "I can summon a zombie rat for a couple seconds" doesn't pass the sniff test, and suggesting a class from Dragon mag, a thing about 95% of DMs don't even allow, is similarly absurd.

It's another in a long line of "great idea, terrible execution" classes and feats that smacks deeply of the "earn your fun" concept, which is laughable in the best of times.

[kalos72]

I like the cleric/pale master dip, but I really dont care for alot of the late pale master stuff.

What about True Necro or maybe diresinger? I like some of their fluff...

[Virdish]

I like the cleric/pale master dip, but I really dont care for alot of the late pale master stuff.

What about True Necro or maybe diresinger? I like some of their fluff...

True necro is a mess. It's just not a good class, loses a lot of caster levels and you need the death domain. True necro is cool flavorwise but it is not a good class. Dirge singer is going to be tough to get into and doesn't advance casting.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yeah this is that pedantry I was talking about. Divine Metamagic was printed before there even was a class with both arcane casting and rebuke undead, so the only way you'd ever even think of using DMM on arcane spells would be to multiclass. Makes sense from a certain (dumb) point of view to say "hey no 1-level cleric dip to DMM your wizard spells", but when your arcane spells and rebukes are native to the same class, that line of reasoning falls flat.

Except that sacred exorcist is in the same book. It gives you turn undead and advances arcane casting just fine. Even that early in the game's run, prestige classing a caster after level 5 is entirely too obvious for that not to have been forseen.

It's not mindless pedantry, it's probably rules as intended.

[gorfnab]

Here are some handbooks that may be use to you.
Necromancer Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2733)
Collection of Necromatic Oddities (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=6bgi7k0ij59n9ec0cdlbu27gc5&topic=8963)
Reanimated Dread Necromancer Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?214212-Reanimated-Dread-Necromancer-Handbook)

[ExLibrisMortis]

Horned Harbinger (Faiths & Pantheons) is a good two-level dip for undead-focused necromancers. Take it after dread necromancer level 8, if you want it - the main draw is the fairly good CL increase on animate dead, and an SLA of that spell (which benefits from the increased CL).

[kalos72]

Horned Harbinger looks really good actually...

I need to get my head around the control/create undead mechanics of all these classes though, time for some math I guess.

Also mechanically, how would a master of the undead role play out in combat?

[Virdish]

Horned Harbinger looks really good actually...

I need to get my head around the control/create undead mechanics of all these classes though, time for some math I guess.

Also mechanically, how would a master of the undead role play out in combat?

Well your main focus is controlling your undead which means for the unintelligent ones you are giving orders. For the intelligent ones you can always give standing orders. As soon as you can try and get access to undead lieutenant. It lets you give command of your army to one of your intelligent undead freeing you up to use your actions more efficiently. Buffing spells are great on your undead. Use some of your more punching bag type undead to give your friends flanking buddies, if you have a rogue on the team he will love you for it. Another awesome tactic is debuffing and fear stacking. As a dread necro you have a fear aura that you can then stack something like scare or a fell frightened spell on their heads. This allows your ubdead to wallop on possibly defenseless targets.