Multiheaded Template Superior Two-Weapon Fighting AND 3x Two-Weapon Fighting Feats

[Grandmeister]

Multi-headed template, gives you Superior Two-Weapon Fighting: -
1. No penalty on attack rolls for attacking with multiple weapons.
2. Number of attacks & damage for each weapon calculated as though weapon were held in a primary hand.

So, with a BAB of +16/+11/+6/+1;
Primary Weapon = 4 attacks, +16/+11/+6/+1
Off-Hand Weapon = 4 attacks, +16/+11/+6/+1

What happens if you also take the feats: Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting?

Do you end up with 3 additional off-hand attacks, without the penalties?
Primary Weapon = 4 attacks, +16/+11/+6/+1
Off-Hand Weapon = 4 attacks, +16/+11/+6/+1, +16/+16/+16

Cheers, Grandmeister.

[OldTrees1]

1) The decreased attack bonus the attacks from Improved/Greater Two Weapon Fighting receive is not a penalty for attacking with multiple weapons. So you would not see +16/+16/+16.

2) The extra attacks from dual wielding (default/ITWF/GTWF) are granted to the off hand. If you are not attacking with an off hand then you do not get the extra attacks. So the Multiheaded Superior Two Weapon Fighting blocks the use of the normal extra attacks from dual wielding.

Superior TWF active
Left Primary Hand: +16/+11/+6/+1
Right Primary Hand: +16/+11/+6/+1

[Darrin]

1) The decreased attack bonus the attacks from Improved/Greater Two Weapon Fighting receive is not a penalty for attacking with multiple weapons. So you would not see +16/+16/+16.


The decreased attack bonus from Improved/Greater TWF is indeed a penalty for attacking with multiple weapons. So by strict RAW, I'm inclined to say this works. Your iterative attacks with your primary and offhand attacks are still calculated normally, but TWF, Improved TWF, and Greater TWF would add an extra attack at your full BAB.



2) The extra attacks from dual wielding (default/ITWF/GTWF) are granted to the off hand. If you are not attacking with an off hand then you do not get the extra attacks. So the Multiheaded Superior Two Weapon Fighting blocks the use of the normal extra attacks from dual wielding.


There are two different versions of "Superior Two-Weapon Fighting". There's the Ettin entry in the 3.5 Monster Manual, and there's the Multi-Headed template in Savage Species.

At no point does the Ettin entry say that by using Superior Two-Weapon Fighting that it is no longer allowed to make offhand attacks.

The Multi-Headed template is slightly more verbose, but I think the key phrase is "as though the weapon were held in a primary hand." Again, nothing in the text says that the creature is unable or prevented from making offhand attacks, only that the offhand attacks are calculated as though they were a primary attack. So the offhand attacks are still there, and I don't see anything that says you're prevented from getting more of them.

At least, those are my initial thoughts. This may require more pondering.

[zergling.exe]

The decreased attack bonus from Improved/Greater TWF is indeed a penalty for attacking with multiple weapons. So by strict RAW, I'm inclined to say this works. Your iterative attacks with your primary and offhand attacks are still calculated normally, but TWF, Improved TWF, and Greater TWF would add an extra attack at your full BAB.



There are two different versions of "Superior Two-Weapon Fighting". There's the Ettin entry in the 3.5 Monster Manual, and there's the Multi-Headed template in Savage Species.

At no point does the Ettin entry say that by using Superior Two-Weapon Fighting that it is no longer allowed to make offhand attacks.

The Multi-Headed template is slightly more verbose, but I think the key phrase is "as though the weapon were held in a
primary hand." Again, nothing in the text says that the creature is unable or prevented from making offhand attacks, only that the offhand attacks are calculated as though they were a primary attack. So the offhand attacks are still there, and I don't see anything that says you're prevented from getting more of them.

At least, those are my initial thoughts. This may require more pondering.

TWF does not grant an additional attack on its own, it merely reduces penalties for the attack any character can make by wielding a second weapon.

And if we are going by 'as though' being key words, then the creature would be unable to make more than one 'off-hand' attack without ITWF or GTWF.

[Darrin]

TWF does not grant an additional attack on its own, it merely reduces penalties for the attack any character can make by wielding a second weapon.


Good point. Then taking TWF is pointless by itself.



And if we are going by 'as though' being key words, then the creature would be unable to make more than one 'off-hand' attack without ITWF or GTWF.

I don't agree. The stat block on the ettin and the wording for Multi-Headed are pretty explicit that your other hand is making multiple attacks.

No, the real trouble is Improved TWF gives you a second attack, and Greater TWF gives you a third attack. However, Superior TWF already gives you a second and third attack if your BAB is high enough. So there's an argument that Improved TWF and Greater TWF are just as pointless as taking TWF. You already get those second and third attacks, why would you get them again?

So yeah... additional pondering.