Bad touch monk/?

[Ofmossandmoose]

So I'm looking for a melee monk focusing on as many atracks per round as possible ( probably unarmed attacks). However I'm thinking a little bad touch, even if low level might hurt really badly if 4 or 5 touch attacks land.

So do I dip a level or 2 in cleric or shaman or witch? Also heard magus thrown out there too... What about psion if the campaign allows psionics?

I'm thinking debuff bad touch vs damage but I'm game for either.

What's the best synthesis between monk and a bad touch class?

I'll post a trial build later.

[Stealth Marmot]

I assume you mean bad touch as using spealls with a range of "touch". Notably you can add unarmed damage if you use a regular attack rolls instead of a touch attack, but at the end of it all you have the simple problem that casting almost every spell with a touch attack is going to take a standard action to cast a single one, making your multiple attacks sort of pointless.

That said, druid can actually make a decent dip class to get Magic Fang as a spell which will beef up your unarmed attacks, though a magic item would probably be more expedient.

Truth is, if you want to take advantage of using magical touch attacks in a flurry, go for Enlightened Fist in the Complete Arcane book. They get the ability Arcane Fist which allows them to use a Stunning Fist use in order to use a touch spell as one of their attacks in a full attack instead of taking a full standard action to do it. This allows you to get into the bad touch spells like shocking grasp and work them into your attacks.

Arcane Casters and monks actually work together better than you think since both are unarmored.

[Jormengand]

Honestly, you're better off playing a full-caster with Chill Touch, which allows you to make one touch attack per level, at your highest base attack bonus with no penalty, immediately when you cast it, each of those dealing 1d6 points of damage and possibly 1 strength damage. This means that with a couple of caster level boosts, you can be making one attack per level, and then maybe two more attacks on top of that.

You can then stick on-hit effects onto that.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Improve your natural reach as much as possible (aptitude unarmed strikes + Long Reach feat+ Inhuman Reach feat + Extended Reach feat + warshaper's morphic reach + the effects of a boarding pike of repelling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/boarding-pike-of-repelling) if you can manage it).

You'll also want to take martial monk with Improved Whirlwind Attack and Boomerang Ricochet as your bonus feats, so you get a whirlwind attack and a full attack in the same round + Great Cleave, Circle Kick, Snap Kick, Improved Trip + Knockback + Knock-Down + Touchstone: Oxyrhynchus (Unarmed Strike) + Boomerang Ricochet.

You'll also want to give your unarmed strike the throwing and distance properties, so you can hurl yourself to a distant space to continue your attacks from that spot when you run out of targets to hit.

The first combo grants you tons of reach even without shapechanging magic, and the second gives you tons and tons of unarmed strikes, even on a standard action attack. You'll literally be able to clear out a battlefield in minutes, especially if you increase your unarmed strike damage to ludicrous levels (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863).

[Mato]

Honestly, you're better off playing a full-caster with Chill Touch,Not really, a minor schema of storm touch costs 18,000gp and gives the monk nine touch attacks that deals 9d6~10d6 electricity damage and comes with a save vs stunned so you can continue hitting them some more.

Monk 7 will let you go the full dark moon disciple route and qualifies you for the lightning fists and mantis leap feats and the latter is one of the most broken feats ever printed since you can initiate a charge multiple times as part of your move action. After that you can use a prestigious class to pick up some spellcasting then cross into enlightened fist to keep your unarmed progression up.

For size modifications you can hit a 2d10 base, then greater mighty wallop to reach 12d8, then stack some other size increases like improved natural weapon, battlefist, and an ectoplasmic fist to bring your damage up to 32d8. Consider picking up a graft so you have natural poison so you can qualify for venomfire then use a collar of venom to make your unarmed attacks poisonous, so for 74,000gp (and the graft) you can add another +20d6 damage per hit.

Furry of blows, GTWF, snap kick, lightning fists, bracers of majere, planar touchstone[ashardalon’s tongue], and haste give you ten extra attacks for a total of fourteen after using a wand of divine power. Assuming only 34 strength your unarmed attack deals 32d8+12 bludgeoning and 20d6 acid or about 226 on average without any additional enchantments. With a wand of wraithstrike they should all hit for 3,164 damage before looking into charge multipliers.

Is that enough or do you need some more?

[Troacctid]

Honestly, you're better off playing a full-caster with Chill Touch, which allows you to make one touch attack per level, at your highest base attack bonus with no penalty, immediately when you cast it, each of those dealing 1d6 points of damage and possibly 1 strength damage. This means that with a couple of caster level boosts, you can be making one attack per level, and then maybe two more attacks on top of that.

You can then stick on-hit effects onto that.
This is what I was going to suggest. Chill Touch is a very good 1st level spell, and if you have Improved Unarmed Strike, you should be able to deliver all the touch attacks via punch.


Not really, a minor schema of storm touch costs 18,000gp and gives the monk nine touch attacks that deals 9d6~10d6 electricity damage and comes with a save vs stunned so you can continue hitting them some more.
I mean, that spell is great too, but 18,000 gp is very expensive.

[Mato]

I mean, that spell is great too, but 18,000 gp is very expensive.Chill touch can cost more through, remember you can only make one touch attack per caster level.

A cl1 wand of chill touch may seem cheap with it's 750gp price tag, but for that +1d6 gain you have to recast the spell using a standard action every time. You're better off attacking each round. With a dragonmark, storm touch deals 315 damage per use for 18,000gp. It's about 57gp per point of damage.

Comparatively, a cl9 minor schema of chill touch lasts just as long and uses the same item type, but it only deals +1d6 per hit and only comes out to 31.5 damage per 3,600gp. It's about 114gp per point of damage and you'd have to buy ten of them (36,000gp) to match the damage storm touch. And the strength damage is pretty negligible, you'll typically a monster from hp damage faster than the str damage will render them helpless, but it cannot compete against storm touch's ability to stun your opponent. Then you also have the problem that PC-like opponents are expected to protect them selves against negative energy and the undead type is extremely prevalent but demons are about the only creature you can expect to fight with immunity to electricity. And all of this really only serves to remind you that higher level spells are considered exponentially more powerful than the lower ones for good reason.

I suppose in a a more theoretical theory you could try to purchase a partially charged cl20 wand of chill touch which achieves a much better damage:gold scale. But touch spells discharge each time you grab something and if you cast any other spell you completely cancel your held touch spells. But in practice, you won't always get to fully use the spell which just wastes part of the investment.

[Troacctid]

We're talking about actually being a spellcaster and casting Chill Touch using your own caster level.

[Mato]

I mean, that spell is great too, but 18,000 gp is very expensive.
We're talking about actually being a spellcaster and casting Chill Touch using your own caster level.If you're a spellcaster than you shouldn't be spending 18,000gp on storm touch anyway :smallwink:

Edit - Also corrosive grasp is the same level, same one use per cl, but deals 1d8 acid per touch instead of 1d6 negative which makes it a bit better for damage and sundering your way through walls. But parching touch is even better than them both, 1d8 desiccation plus 1 con (and dehydration) on a failed save.

[Ofmossandmoose]

Let's assume this character is actually behaving like a monk or wanderer rather than a hoarder, and assume no large cache of magical goodies.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Let's assume this character is actually behaving like a monk or wanderer rather than a hoarder, and assume no large cache of magical goodies.Then call the caterer. We have a funeral to plan.

If you want to act like a monk would actually need to in order to survive against equal level challenges, then you'll have to make full use of WBL as hard as humanly possible. Anything else is entirely unbelievable and breaks the hell out of immersion.

[Troacctid]

If you're a spellcaster than you shouldn't be spending 18,000gp on storm touch anyway :smallwink:

Edit - Also corrosive grasp is the same level, same one use per cl, but deals 1d8 acid per touch instead of 1d6 negative which makes it a bit better for damage and sundering your way through walls. But parching touch is even better than them both, 1d8 desiccation plus 1 con (and dehydration) on a failed save.
Ooh, I was not aware of parching touch. That's a very nice one. Too bad it doesn't work on constructs/undead, or it would be clearly better than chill touch.

I would probably not use corrosive grasp over chill touch, as it has a much worse damage type (acid may not be commonly resisted, but untyped damage is still better) and doesn't include ability damage. I don't think increasing the damage dice by one size is worth it. Maybe if you need the [Acid] descriptor for some reason.

[Grim Reader]

I am getting the feeling from your OP that you play Pathfinder, but I'm not sure if you are allowed 3.5 material or not. If you are, take a look at the "Soul Eater" prestige class. Strong chassis and inflict negative levels.

[Ofmossandmoose]

This character will likely be in a campaign with low magical items, as in found not bought.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

This character will likely be in a campaign with low magical items, as in found not bought.For the sake of your own survival, I would suggest a higher tier class with a monk dip, swordsage, or (if you can manage it) starting with a monk's belt and a fanged ring, since they give you most of the best parts of being a monk.

Martial monk 1/druid X is perfectly serviceable, after all. A kung-fu leopard grants a full flurry routine, followed by a natural attack routine, and it comes complete on a charge, and you don't even need a barbarian dip.

[Deadline]

This character will likely be in a campaign with low magical items, as in found not bought.

If this is the case, you'd be better served with a spellcaster of some sort. Non-spellcasters suffer greatly in low-wealth campaigns, because the CR system assumes appropriate wealth by level. If you are playing pathfinder, Magus might be worth a look.

[John Longarrow]

For a straight 3.5 game Ranger makes for a better unarmed combatant if you have ToB in play. Go the two weapon route and dip into Sword Sage for Wis to AC and Shadow Blade.

Mechanically you wind up with 7 attacks per round at the end (not including feats that grant extra attacks), casting of your own, ability to be useful out doors, an animal companion, ability to use weapons effectively, and you can fight unarmed while wearing armor. Two feats required though, Improved Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed Strike (from ToB). Taking Shadow blade after you grab your first level in sword sage really equalizes things between the two for damage output.

Adding in a level of Barbarian for speed isn't a bad option either.

[Mato]

but untyped damage is still betterI know this is GitP and they think lava doesn't deal fire damage for the same reasons you think chill touch is untyped, but as intended chill touch deals negative energy-typed damage and only works on living creatures (ie no constructs).


Martial monk 1/druid X is perfectly serviceable, after all.A single level dip into monk is a lot like taking odd levels of fighter, if you're going to sacrifice the cl for a 1d6 punch and feat then you should be more than willing to sacrifice a cl for nearly at-will invisibility and a feat. And if you're not willing to sacrifice your cl, then just buy the belt for a 1d8 punch and wisdom to ac.


For a straight 3.5 game Ranger makes for a better unarmed combatant if you have ToB in play.If you have tome of battle, and are willing to play as a martial adept which the OP has not said he would yet, then a straight unarmed swordsage makes for a better unarmed combatant than a ranger ever can hope to be.

[Troacctid]

I know this is GitP and they think lava doesn't deal fire damage for the same reasons you think chill touch is untyped, but as intended chill touch deals negative energy-typed damage and only works on living creatures (ie no constructs).
No, lava deals fire damage, it's in the lava rules, RC 103.

Chill touch doesn't work on constructs, but it is kind of the nuts against undead, since a save-or-panicked is a lot better than 1d6 damage.

[John Longarrow]

If you have tome of battle, and are willing to play as a martial adept which the OP has not said he would yet, then a straight unarmed swordsage makes for a better unarmed combatant than a ranger ever can hope to be.

OP was looking to maximize number of attacks. No initiator gets the TWF tree for free.

Then again, between a full initiator taking stances, boosts, and strikes the Ranger isn't going to be able to match the amount of damage or their ability to do just straight up fun stuff. If its just straight unarmed attacks though, the ranger (even with a couple levels dipping) can pull off 7 without any special effort.

[Calthropstu]

I am thinking this is pathfinder since the magus was mentioned by OP.

Is there a magus class for 3.5? Only place I can find it is Dandwiki, and is is in their home brew section.

[Mato]

OP was looking to maximize number of attacks. No initiator gets the TWF tree for free.The warblade doesn't get TWF for free but he gets bonus feats to help create the room for it. He also gets time stands still to full-attack twice so with haste that's 16 attacks in one round and raging mongoose brings him to 20. A unarmed swordsage x / lion totem barbarian 1 / telflammar shadowlord 4 doesn't get TWF for free but he buys gloves of the balanced hand, a +1 speed necklace of natural weapons, and attacks fifteen times in a single round without them. A crusader doesn't get TWF for free but his two hundred followers all attack at once (and the warblade can do this too).

You've over estimating the effectiveness of 1/2 your strength bonus with three attacks compared to double or tripling your attacks.

[John Longarrow]

The warblade doesn't get TWF for free but he gets bonus feats to help create the room for it. He also gets time stands still to full-attack twice so with haste that's 16 attacks in one round and raging mongoose brings him to 20. A unarmed swordsage x / lion totem barbarian 1 / telflammar shadowlord 4 doesn't get TWF for free but he buys gloves of the balanced hand, a +1 speed necklace of natural weapons, and attacks fifteen times in a single round without them. A crusader doesn't get TWF for free but his two hundred followers all attack at once (and the warblade can do this too).

You've over estimating the effectiveness of 1/2 your strength bonus with three attacks compared to double or tripling your attacks.

Nope.. Thinking of how nasty some of the ability drain/level drain riders are when you get a lot of attacks.

Plus the ranger can do most of the same tricks by doing the same dips... They just get TWF even if they don't have the stats for it. Course if we wanted to really be silly about this I'd just go Ranger 1 Wizard 19 and win. :smallcool:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Tiger claw has a lot of TWF maneuvers.

[Mordaedil]

I am thinking this is pathfinder since the magus was mentioned by OP.

Is there a magus class for 3.5? Only place I can find it is Dandwiki, and is is in their home brew section.

There is an ultimate magus in complete mage, combines sorcerer/wizards. For you know, the insane person.

[Grim Reader]

I am thinking this is pathfinder since the magus was mentioned by OP.

Is there a magus class for 3.5? Only place I can find it is Dandwiki, and is is in their home brew section.

Duskblade is the closest. Below it, the Hexblade. The Magus is better than both.

[Calthropstu]

Duskblade is the closest. Below it, the Hexblade. The Magus is better than both.

Agreed. Actually, nearly all of the classes are better in pathfinder. So much so that prestige classes are not really a major boost like in 3.5. I especially like what pf did with the sorcerer. In 3.5 it was best to prestige out asap, but pf sorcs get some pretty nice buffs.

I mention sorcs, in particular, because they get some decent touch attacks in PF. A decent dragon disciple/twf build is workable in PF, pop off a ton of touch attacks and you could deal some nasty damage.

[Mato]

Plus the ranger can do most of the same tricks by doing the same dips...I doubt it, since you're taking eleven levels of ranger for GTWF you'd have to fully focus on a martial adept class after that just to learn a single 8th level maneuver so it'll never learn time stands still and if you think a dip is all that's needed it'll never learn raging mongoose either. And you want shadow pounce it can never learn shadow blink to initiate a full attack using a swift action either.

Every class gets seven feat slots, eight with human, ten with flaws, twelve with pacts, and another ten million with spells, to learn feats like TWF and just because you can't think of a way to hit a dexterity score of 19 doesn't mean it's hard or if you pull any resources from strength it really matters in the long run. It's why your usage of the ranger is failing to keep up with a monk.


Course if we wanted to really be silly about this I'd just go Ranger 1 Wizard 19 and win. :smallcool:That's cool, you created a wizard with a +2 damage bonus against kobolds with a fascination for sniffing dirt.

But a wizard 15 / jade phoenix mage 5 using martial study/stance to enter gets the same casting except he still has a cl of 20 instead of 19, but also several maneuvers with a 6th level cap instead of 5th, +2 to knowledge checks for knowledge devotion fun, free empower spell, and gains a unique "spell" that by using a 5th level slot from last week he gains a +2 dodge bonus to ac and a damage reduction 10/evil. :smallwink:

[Bronk]

Honestly, you're better off playing a full-caster with Chill Touch, which allows you to make one touch attack per level, at your highest base attack bonus with no penalty, immediately when you cast it, each of those dealing 1d6 points of damage and possibly 1 strength damage. This means that with a couple of caster level boosts, you can be making one attack per level, and then maybe two more attacks on top of that.

You can then stick on-hit effects onto that.

You can only do that with willing targets. In this case, the recipients of the extra damage aren't willing. So, immediately when you cast 'chill touch', it gives you the ability to make a number of touch attacks with extra damage equal to your caster level, which you can then use the same way you'd deliver any touch attacks, over several rounds, and with varying attack bonuses.

[Troacctid]

You can only do that with willing targets. In this case, the recipients of the extra damage aren't willing. So, immediately when you cast 'chill touch', it gives you the ability to make a number of touch attacks with extra damage equal to your caster level, which you can then use the same way you'd deliver any touch attacks, over several rounds, and with varying attack bonuses.
The duration is instantaneous. That means you make all the attacks at once. See also scorching ray. Contrast call lightning and produce flame, which do function as you describe.