Teleport Meteor

[RoboEmperor]

1. Cast Contingency on yourself. The spell is Teleport and it will trigger after you have been Greater Teleported and it will teleport you to a city of your choosing.
2. Polymorph yourself to something that can speak a language and has a massive strength score.
3. Create or find some massive stone boulder that equals your maximum carry weight.
4. Greater Teleport yourself ???ft above your target

Your contingency will teleport you back to safety and your massive boulder will drop and create a crater on top of your target.

I need help with:
1. Best polymorph form for this purpose
2. The dimensions of the biggest perfect spherical stone boulder that you can carry
3. Scientist to tell me at what height is most optimal. Too high and the boulder will just fly into space.
4. Physicists to tell me how big a crater it will be
5. D&D rule lawyers to calculate how much damage the thing would do

Additional Optimizations:
1. Polymorph your friend into a creature with the highest STR score, but doesn't speak a language, and then adjust the contingency and teleport to teleport your friend as well.
2. Optimal Boulder shape.

[Stealth Marmot]

Why not just use Shrink Item and drop it from a great height using a command word to grow it back as you drop it?

[Nifft]

You really want a way to accelerate the meteor, and possibly to course-correct if you're not confident in your character's orbital dynamics calculations.

[lord_khaine]

Does falling object damage not cap out at some point?
And sadly, though its a novel idea, then you can do a lot more damage to a town with a wand of fireball.
Dropping this rock uses about 4 high level spell slots, and only manages to do something in the line of 20d6 to the targets directly under the rock.

[DarkSoul]

Does falling object damage not cap out at some point?
And sadly, though its a novel idea, then you can do a lot more damage to a town with a wand of fireball.
Dropping this rock uses about 4 high level spell slots, and only manages to do something in the line of 20d6 to the targets directly under the rock.Falling objects deal damage by weight and the damage doesn't cap. 1d6/200 lbs. of object weight, then add falling damage as normal. A standard great red wyrm (colossal, Str 45) can carry a 136,400 lb. boulder as a medium load and drop it on something for 682d6 damage, plus the 20d6 for dropping it from 200 ft.

[Deophaun]

Falling objects deal damage by weight and the damage doesn't cap. 1d6/200 lbs. of object weight, then add falling damage as normal. A standard great red wyrm (colossal, Str 45) can carry a 136,400 lb. boulder as a medium load and drop it on something for 682d6 damage, plus the 20d6 for dropping it from 200 ft.
All avoided by a DC 15 Reflex save.

[Gruftzwerg]

Why not use Telekinesis instead of high strength form? And the Spell gives you rules for the dmg. Further you could choose between one big meteor or a meteor shower.

edit: and a higher DC which is affected by your mainstat.

[Darrin]

1. Best polymorph form for this purpose


Bed-shaped mimic. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?402795-Ridiculous-Character-Concepts-2-Slam-Dunk!&p=18994487#post18994487) if you'd prefer to do the bombardment on a more personal level, then maybe a gelatinous cube (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16886796&postcount=204), fat bug (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18981080&postcount=23), or drunken baleen whale (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18984751&postcount=25) might do.



2. The dimensions of the biggest perfect spherical stone boulder that you can carry


There are Hulking Hurler builds that can throw osmium planetoids at each other. Unfortunately, the point where some of the more mathematically inclined can give you hard figures is very likely to be well past the point that this exercise becomes irredeemably silly.



3. Scientist to tell me at what height is most optimal. Too high and the boulder will just fly into space.


For most practical purposes, the DMG says that flying creatures that are unable to fly fall 150' on the first round and then 300' on subsequent rounds. The DMGII gives a more realistic number based on a human's actual terminal velocity (around 670' I think) but it's unclear if this a general rule or how it applies to non-human objects.



4. Physicists to tell me how big a crater it will be


All those poor catgirls...



5. D&D rule lawyers to calculate how much damage the thing would do


We'll get to that in a bit.



Additional Optimizations:
1. Polymorph your friend into a creature with the highest STR score, but doesn't speak a language, and then adjust the contingency and teleport to teleport your friend as well.


Not entirely necessary. Contingency, polymorph... You're dropping heavy objects on people from high altitude. This is mostly roadrunner/coyote stuff.



2. Optimal Boulder shape.

This is largely irrelevant, so long as the shape counts as "sharp", in which case it does more damage as an improvised weapon.


Does falling object damage not cap out at some point?


Yes. If you go by just the DMG, the object weight is uncapped (1d6 per 200 lbs), but the distance fallen caps at 20d6. If you go by the Rules Compendium, both the weight and distance cap at 20d6.


All avoided by a DC 15 Reflex save.

This is an optional rule in Heroes of Battle (under the aerial bombardment rules). It can be circumvented somewhat by dropping multiple objects (you'll eventually roll a 1 on that Ref save).

[DarkSoul]

Yes. If you go by just the DMG, the object weight is uncapped (1d6 per 200 lbs), but the distance fallen caps at 20d6. If you go by the Rules Compendium, both the weight and distance cap at 20d6.Just to clarify, the Rules Compendium actually caps the total damage done by the object at 20d6 for some strange reason, so it doesn't actually matter if the meteor weighs a hundred pounds or a million, if it falls at least 200 feet then the weight means nothing.

[John Longarrow]

This link (http://www.aqua-calc.com/calculate/weight-to-volume/substance/granite-coma-and-blank-solid) may help you find out how big of an object you can pick up.

For reference, a 20'x20'x10' granite door would weight about 300 tons. Not a lot of surface area to hit with.

[Crake]

For most practical purposes, the DMG says that flying creatures that are unable to fly fall 150' on the first round and then 300' on subsequent rounds. The DMGII gives a more realistic number based on a human's actual terminal velocity (around 670' I think) but it's unclear if this a general rule or how it applies to non-human objects.

I believe those first numbers are for flying creatures who are in a stall, not in freefall.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Just to clarify, the Rules Compendium actually caps the total damage done by the object at 20d6 for some strange reason, so it doesn't actually matter if the meteor weighs a hundred pounds or a million, if it falls at least 200 feet then the weight means nothing.

Crap like this is why I don't like the rules compendium. There are nerfs left and right and only a small handful of actual clarifications. Everything else is just reprints of extant rules. It's a wasted print, IMO.

[Darrin]

I believe those first numbers are for flying creatures who are in a stall, not in freefall.

SRD only mentions a creature that is falling. It doesn't specify if this only applies to flying creatures that stall, or if this is a general rule for all falling creatures.

[flappeercraft]

1. Cast Contingency on yourself. The spell is Teleport and it will trigger after you have been Greater Teleported and it will teleport you to a city of your choosing.
2. Polymorph yourself to something that can speak a language and has a massive strength score.
3. Create or find some massive stone boulder that equals your maximum carry weight.
4. Greater Teleport yourself ???ft above your target

Your contingency will teleport you back to safety and your massive boulder will drop and create a crater on top of your target.

I need help with:
1. Best polymorph form for this purpose
2. The dimensions of the biggest perfect spherical stone boulder that you can carry
3. Scientist to tell me at what height is most optimal. Too high and the boulder will just fly into space.
4. Physicists to tell me how big a crater it will be
5. D&D rule lawyers to calculate how much damage the thing would do

Additional Optimizations:
1. Polymorph your friend into a creature with the highest STR score, but doesn't speak a language, and then adjust the contingency and teleport to teleport your friend as well.
2. Optimal Boulder shape.

Better idea, get a bag of holding IV and get the biggest boulders you can find and cast Shrink item on them with the same command word all (permanency is reccomended if you will take long) then use cast fly and Greater teleport to the top of the Mesosphere, finally open the bag of olding upside down and scream the command word and done, anything short of magically treated obudurium with Hardnening, augment object and matter manipulation will not stay standing.

[Troacctid]

Just to clarify, the Rules Compendium actually caps the total damage done by the object at 20d6 for some strange reason, so it doesn't actually matter if the meteor weighs a hundred pounds or a million, if it falls at least 200 feet then the weight means nothing.
I mean, I don't think the reason is at all mysterious or anything. It's pretty clearly because uncapped falling damage is silly and dysfunctional.

[Darrin]

I mean, I don't think the reason is at all mysterious or anything. It's pretty clearly because uncapped falling damage is silly and dysfunctional.

And yet they completely failed to fix what was broken about it: automatic damage. The DC 15 Ref save, even if you're aware of it and use it, is arbitrary and just as silly. The 20d6 cap still allows quite a bit of damage at relatively low levels. Half-Orc Totemist 1 with Hidden Talent:Expansion can max out the damage just by loading himself up with heavy equipment.

[ryu]

Crap like this is why I don't like the rules compendium. There are nerfs left and right and only a small handful of actual clarifications. Everything else is just reprints of extant rules. It's a wasted print, IMO.

Good thing the ''rules'' compendium isn't actually regarded as rules of any sort by a lot of people on the grounds that it's never the primary source, and often directly conflicts with what came before in huge obvious ways even counting errata changes.

[DarkSoul]

I mean, I don't think the reason is at all mysterious or anything. It's pretty clearly because uncapped falling damage is silly and dysfunctional.I disagree. I think that if the dragon drops a 65 ton rock on someone or something, and hits what they're aiming at, then it should do "silly and dysfunctional" levels of damage. The difference between the DMG and the RC's rules has me curious if there's an actual reason behind it other than "We don't want characters throwing really big things at people."

[Stealth Marmot]

I disagree. I think that if the dragon drops a 65 ton rock on someone or something, and hits what they're aiming at, then it should do "silly and dysfunctional" levels of damage. The difference between the DMG and the RC's rules has me curious if there's an actual reason behind it other than "We don't want characters throwing really big things at people."

Are you Sephiroth?

[DarkSoul]

Are you Sephiroth?Depends on who you ask. My players might say so.

[Troacctid]

And yet they completely failed to fix what was broken about it: automatic damage. The DC 15 Ref save, even if you're aware of it and use it, is arbitrary and just as silly. The 20d6 cap still allows quite a bit of damage at relatively low levels. Half-Orc Totemist 1 with Hidden Talent:Expansion can max out the damage just by loading himself up with heavy equipment.
I mean that's clearly not the only broken thing about it. It was a marginal improvement over the previous rule.


Good thing the ''rules'' compendium isn't actually regarded as rules of any sort by a lot of people on the grounds that it's never the primary source, and often directly conflicts with what came before in huge obvious ways even counting errata changes.
No, the reason it's often disregarded is because people don't include the book in their games, not because it's not authoritative.

The vast majority of fixes in the RC are along these lines:
"Hey, did you know that lava doesn't deal fire damage, and fire resistance 1 makes you immune to it? Haha, stupid right?"
"No, they fixed that in RC."
"Okay, how about this one, due to distance penalties on Spot checks, it's actually impossible to see the Sun from the Earth! Isn't that dumb?"
"They also fixed that in RC."
"Oh, well, here's a nifty trick, the rules for a wizard scribing new spells into her spellbook are ambiguous about whether the spell has to be on her class list, so—"
"Actually, that was clarified in RC as well."
And so on. It's pretty much all cleaning up dysfunctions and ambiguities.

[ryu]

I mean that's clearly not the only broken thing about it. It was a marginal improvement over the previous rule.


No, the reason it's often disregarded is because people don't include the book in their games, not because it's not authoritative.

The vast majority of fixes in the RC are along these lines:
"Hey, did you know that lava doesn't deal fire damage, and fire resistance 1 makes you immune to it? Haha, stupid right?"
"No, they fixed that in RC."
"Okay, how about this one, due to distance penalties on Spot checks, it's actually impossible to see the Sun from the Earth! Isn't that dumb?"
"They also fixed that in RC."
"Oh, well, here's a nifty trick, the rules for a wizard scribing new spells into her spellbook are ambiguous about whether the spell has to be on her class list, so—"
"Actually, that was clarified in RC as well."
And so on. It's pretty much all cleaning up dysfunctions and ambiguities.

And tell me why exactly do you think people refuse to include the book at their tables?

For that matter were you aware of the fact that lava immunity is hilarious? Or the fact that the sun isn't sentient (in the vast majority of settings) and thus is never hidden lacking the ability to make checks?

[Stealth Marmot]

What I find funny is that even if you were immune to the heat of lava, if you tried to walk near it you would choke pretty quick on the lethal fumes.

[ryu]

What I find funny is that even if you were immune to the heat of lava, if you tried to walk near it you would choke pretty quick on the lethal fumes.

Funny thing about that. D&D doesn't model lava fumes, but even if it did we've magic items that I buy standard that make that a moot point. Breathing? That's for pansies!

[RoboEmperor]

Alright thanks everyone for your input.

Bottom line is it's gonna take a **** ton of rule lawyering to do so... I guess I won't do it :(

In fact i guess i should stop trying to play d&d other than the standard way. The system simply cannot handle it. I mean lava drowning immunity toxic fumes etc. XD

[ZamielVanWeber]

It requires no rules lawyering. You will need to ask your DM which rules they are using for object damage and if they are using the aerial bombardment. Then polymorph into the biggest dragon you can, find the biggest rock you can, and fly above the target and drop it. Voila: orbital bombardment.

[Frosty]

So you want to what happens in this video starting at 4:08? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jFh5hlOpmw

[unseenmage]

If it were me I would set a Spellclock (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070312a) of Animate Objects at max CL, a Spellclock of Greater Teleport into orbit alongside an asteroid belt and just let them do what they do. So long as they are both aligned to affect the same mass whenever that mass floats through their area of effect.

Why drop one big rock when you could drop ALLOFTHEM! For more immediate effect just use more Spellclocks.

Can't afford a Spellclock? Then just make yourself an Awakened Sand (Sa) friend and politely ask it to repeatedly trigger a couple of Resetting Magic Traps set to do the same job.

[RoboEmperor]

It requires no rules lawyering. You will need to ask your DM which rules they are using for object damage and if they are using the aerial bombardment. Then polymorph into the biggest dragon you can, find the biggest rock you can, and fly above the target and drop it. Voila: orbital bombardment.

1. Object Damage rules
2. Crater Size Rules (this requires rule lawyering because such rules don't exist)
3. Possible fire damage rules
4. Possible damage to equipment rules

This is assuming he doesn't try to say that the wind blew it off course or whatnot, so we need wind interference rules.

If he goes the 20d6 max damage rule because it's d&d, and says there is no crater, fire damage, or equipment damage because d&d RAW says there wouldn't be, then it's gonna take a megaton of rule lawyering to beat that. My DM actually loves rule lawyering so that's not really a problem but I am not really in the mood to rule lawyer that hard.

Anyways it has to be greater teleport. Greater teleport magically gives you 100% accuracy to teleport right on top of your target 20,000ft+ above, where as a dragon has to eyeball it, and polymorph will probably end before you can climb 20,000ft.

[ZamielVanWeber]

That is not called rules lawyering, it's called homebrewing. The only rules question is whether the boulder caps at 20d6 or not, every thing else you listed does not exist in the rules or has a rules answer (the meteor will not damage gear unless you use aerial bombardment rules at which point it is damaged on a natural one). What you have are homebrew questions and those are best handled by your DM.

Side note: greater teleport will do nothing about the fact mobile targets have over a minute, cloaer to two, to move out of the rock's way when dropped from 20,000+ feat.

[Ashtagon]

Why has everyone been ignoring the rather critical point that a greater teleport spell must still transport the caster onto a surface capable of holding their weight. Even for flying creatures, mid-air does not qualify, since it would not be "on a surface".

Interestingly, a strict reading of the RAW prevents marine creatures being teleported to oceans and seas, unless it is either to the surface or the bottom.

[Grod_The_Giant]

And tell me why exactly do you think people refuse to include the book at their tables?
Because the vast majority of DMs and players don't want to waste their money on a book that just reprints rules they already have, with small changes to things they probably never noticed? It's an incredibly niche product.

[Troacctid]

Why has everyone been ignoring the rather critical point that a greater teleport spell must still transport the caster onto a surface capable of holding their weight. Even for flying creatures, mid-air does not qualify, since it would not be "on a surface".

Interestingly, a strict reading of the RAW prevents marine creatures being teleported to oceans and seas, unless it is either to the surface or the bottom.
Are you referring to this rule?

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
That restriction only applies to creatures brought into being or transported to your location. It's not relevant to greater teleport.

[Kelb_Panthera]

20,000 feet isn't high enough for the object to accelerate to the point of having the kind of impact you're after.

You're looking for something meteoric and at 20,000 feet drag will be too significant for the air in front of the object to be compressed to the point of forming a corona as you see in the shockwave of a meteoroid. This being the case, the shockwave on impact will also be less impressive than a proper explosion, nevermind hot enough to ignite anything. Finally, at the speeds the impact will occur, most of the object will remain in the impact crater, if it's even deep/wide enough to contain that much mass.

Before you even consider rules lawyery and homebrewing, get your physics straight. :smallamused:

[Ashtagon]

Are you referring to this rule?

That restriction only applies to creatures brought into being or transported to your location. It's not relevant to greater teleport.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n5uq?Can-you-Teleport-MidAir

The Pathfinder ruling seems to agree with me, at least.

I'd say wherever you go to is your location.

[Troacctid]

I'm not aware of any FAQ entry on the topic from Paizo, and even if there were one, I don't see how a noncanonical ruling issued by a third-party developer would be relevant to the RAW here.

[RoboEmperor]

Before you even consider rules lawyery and homebrewing, get your physics straight. :smallamused:

One reason I posted this thread is to get my physics straight, because I don't want to research it XD. I forgot about terminal velocities. I guess it's inevitable that I program some kind of simple calculator that will tell me how big a crater an object would create based on drag, mass, volume, etc.

@ZamielVanWeber
Yeah you're right it's homebrewing not rule lawyering. I often put those two together because usually (at least with my DM) homebrew rules are created from existing rules.