Is dragonfire Inspiration worth it?

[SangoProduction]

You give up +1 to attack, in exchange for +2.5 average damage increase over Inspire Courage. 2.5 doesn't sound like a lot, while +1 to attack is an effective 5% increase in damage most of the time....which means that they'd need to deal at least 20 times the added damage each attack to be worth it.

So, if they deal at least 50 damage per attack, it's no longer worth it. But, if they are low level, that won't be much of an issue.

Am I correct in my assumptions?

[TiaC]

You give up +1 to attack, in exchange for +2.5 average damage increase over Inspire Courage. 2.5 doesn't sound like a lot, while +1 to attack is an effective 5% increase in damage most of the time....which means that they'd need to deal at least 20 times the added damage each attack to be worth it.

So, if they deal at least 50 damage per attack, it's no longer worth it. But, if they are low level, that won't be much of an issue.

Am I correct in my assumptions?

It really depends on who will be benefitting from your song. If your party uses two-hand weapons and has power attack, Dragonfire Inspiration is pretty much worthless, because they can already trade +1 attack for +2 damage and that extra damage is multiplied on a crit. If they already hit most of the time and get a lot of attacks, then it's pretty good. If it's going to be hard to fit into your build, I wouldn't bother.

[SangoProduction]

It really depends on who will be benefitting from your song. If your party uses two-hand weapons and has power attack, Dragonfire Inspiration is pretty much worthless, because they can already trade +1 attack for +2 damage and that extra damage is multiplied on a crit. If they already hit most of the time and get a lot of attacks, then it's pretty good. If it's going to be hard to fit into your build, I wouldn't bother.

Ah right. 2 handed power attack.

[Azoth]

Why not use Lingering Song and do both?

Round 1: Use Dragonfire Inspiration giving +XD6 damage.

Round 2: Stop your Dragonfire Inspiration performance. Use Inspire Courage normally giving +X to hit/+X Damage.

End result 4rounds of +X To Hit/+XD6 damage. 1 round +X to hit/+X Damage.

If you go Heartfire Fanner 5 or Seeker of Secrets 2 you get a second performance at the same time. Then you can double down from the get go...

[Necroticplague]

Over the course of 20 attacks, a +1 to hit is only relevant once (when the attack would have otherwise missed). The higher bonus damage is relevant for every attack that hits. So the values of the two are as follows:

.05*Y=value of the to-hit
X*2.5=value of DFI.

Y is your expected damage from this additional hit that lands, and X is chance to hit, as a percentage.

Now, as you may notice, you can't really solve this for an equivalence point in general, due to all the variables being entirely unrelated. Which one is worth more will depend on your current chance to hit the enemy, and what your expected damage is.

Note, however, that since you always miss on a nat1, bonus to-hit serves no benefit if you hit on a two already, as an edge case.

[Korahir]

I am afraid it is a little more complex than that. The 2.5 increase in damage is only an average result of a dice roll, which means there are a lot of different results possible. The results vary from no increase to +5 increase per dice which makes it already hard enough to do the full calculation. Then you have to account for resistances (ranging from 5 to 20) and immunities. On the other hand many monsters rely on a miss chance which is equally effective against inspire courage and dragonfire inspiration but dragonfire inspiration might have an edge here because it does more damage when you hit. So covering the ground theoretically is pretty hard. The most important factor is the attack bonus and the number of attacks of your party.
I DMed a group of drow assassins with a dragonfire inspiration bard (with a bonus of 6d6 acid damage). The critfisher ranger did benefit a lot because of his 5 attacks per round. I was very happy that the wizard didn't specialize on summons.

[Troacctid]

+1 to hit doesn't actually equate to a 5% increase in accuracy. It could be anywhere from +0% up to +100%, depending on what your hit rate is to start with. Like, math or whatever.

Let's take an example. If you normally hit on an 11 or better for an average damage roll of 10, your weighted average damage per attack is 5 (10 damage * 50% accuracy). Inspire courage increases this to 6.05 (11 damage * 55% accuracy); Dragonfire Inspiration increases it to 6.75 (13.5 damage * 50% accuracy). DFI comes out ahead.

Here is a quick spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lFqLlkNdtdKHtJqDkA-el28qDX5xCV7o6tiU_onjL_I/edit?usp=sharing) that will let you play around with the values (assuming I set the permissions correctly), ignoring critical hits. If I were better with infographics, I might set up some graphs or charts or whatever, but meh.

[SangoProduction]

Why not use Lingering Song and do both?

Round 1: Use Dragonfire Inspiration giving +XD6 damage.

Round 2: Stop your Dragonfire Inspiration performance. Use Inspire Courage normally giving +X to hit/+X Damage.

End result 4 rounds of +X To Hit/+XD6 damage. 1 round +X to hit/+X Damage.

If you go Heartfire Fanner 5 or Seeker of Secrets 2 you get a second performance at the same time. Then you can double down from the get go...

Right. I forgot about that. heh.

I couldn't find a 3.5 version of Seeker of Secrets. I would really want that, based on the name.


+1 to hit doesn't actually equate to a 5% increase in accuracy. It could be anywhere from +0% up to +100%, depending on what your hit rate is to start with. Like, math or whatever.

Let's take an example. If you normally hit on an 11 or better for an average damage roll of 10, your weighted average damage per attack is 5 (10 damage * 50% accuracy). Inspire courage increases this to 6.05 (11 damage * 55% accuracy); Dragonfire Inspiration increases it to 6.75 (13.5 damage * 50% accuracy). DFI comes out ahead.

Here is a quick spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lFqLlkNdtdKHtJqDkA-el28qDX5xCV7o6tiU_onjL_I/edit?usp=sharing) that will let you play around with the values (assuming I set the permissions correctly), ignoring critical hits. If I were better with infographics, I might set up some graphs or charts or whatever, but meh.

Oh right. Yeah. Seems at 25% chance to hit, DFI comes out on top, on average.

[Necroticplague]

I am afraid it is a little more complex than that. The 2.5 increase in damage is only an average result of a dice roll, which means there are a lot of different results possible. The results vary from no increase to +5 increase per dice which makes it already hard enough to do the full calculation. Then you have to account for resistances (ranging from 5 to 20) and immunities. On the other hand many monsters rely on a miss chance which is equally effective against inspire courage and dragonfire inspiration but dragonfire inspiration might have an edge here because it does more damage when you hit. So covering the ground theoretically is pretty hard. The most important factor is the attack bonus and the number of attacks of your party.
I DMed a group of drow assassins with a dragonfire inspiration bard (with a bonus of 6d6 acid damage). The critfisher ranger did benefit a lot because of his 5 attacks per round. I was very happy that the wizard didn't specialize on summons.

Amount of attacks isn't actually relevant for comparing the benefit of the two, since the benefits of both are on a per-attack basis. If you make more attacks, there's a larger chance any one of them could be the one that only lands because of the to-hit bonus, while more attacks intuitively multiply per-attack damage.

Miss chance is similarly a non-factor in the comparison because it effects both the same way. It simply scales them by ((100-miss chance)/100). This won't change the ratios of the values, though (so whichever was more valuable without miss chance will still be more valuable after miss chance, it simply won't be as valuable in an absolute sense). It reduces the chance the extra attacks allowed to hit by the to-hit bonus actually goes through, but it also reduces the chance to hit to apply the DFA damage bonus.

Good point on resistance. That just changes the 2.5 statistical average damage above the +1 normal Inspire Courage provides of DFA to instead be a number based on the Fire Resistance amount, which I went ahead and calculated.
FR1:1.67
FR2:1
FR3: 0.5
FR4: 0.167
any greater: 0
Since FR is usually at least 5, that means any amount of resistance renders normal Inspire Courage strictly better.

[Khedrac]

And just when you think you have the statistics sorted...

The basic boost is fire damage, probably the worst energy type as it is the most common resistance.
If fighting a lot of fire-resistant creatures the benefit is pretty much negated, but if fighting fire-vulnerable creatures it is enhanced...

[Crake]

And just when you think you have the statistics sorted...

The basic boost is fire damage, probably the worst energy type as it is the most common resistance.
If fighting a lot of fire-resistant creatures the benefit is pretty much negated, but if fighting fire-vulnerable creatures it is enhanced...

Except then you have the option of taking draconic heritage and changing the damage to almost any energy type, including sonic, and then using creaking cacophany to add an extra 50% damage ontop of your rolls. Taking into account the fact that odd rolls round down, a single D6 comes out to an average of 5 damage vs foes with weakness to sonic, or +4 damage ontop of inspire courage

Of course as more dice are involved, the average will slowly tend upward toward it's natural value of 5.25 damage, but that's getting a bit needlessly deep.

As stated though, ultimately, the answer becomes "why not both?" Lingering song is a waste of a feat in this circumstance, when you can have a harmonizing weapon (MiC p35, a mere +1 bonus) which effectively extends the duration to 15 rounds (10 more rounds of free singing, plus 5 rounds of lingering effect)

[Azoth]

Right. I forgot about that. heh.

I couldn't find a 3.5 version of Seeker of Secrets. I would really want that, based on the name.

Sorry it was Seeker of the Song. It is in Complete Arcane page 56.

[Troacctid]

Or just don't bother investing resources into extending the duration because it already lasts 5 rounds after you stop singing, and that's more than enough time for most combats to be over, especially when all your attacks are dealing +6d6 extra damage.

[darkdragoon]

Given the number of ways to boost Inspire Courage it's not going to be 1d6. Plus you get to choose when to use it, it's not stuck on auto if you run into fire-resistant monsters.

[Troacctid]

Okay, I think I fixed my calculations to take into account critical hits, max and min accuracy values, and masterwork mandolins.

[SangoProduction]

Given the number of ways to boost Inspire Courage it's not going to be 1d6. Plus you get to choose when to use it, it's not stuck on auto if you run into fire-resistant monsters.

How do you boost Inspire Courage?

[Temotei]

How do you boost Inspire Courage?

Song of the Heart (ECS), badge of valor (MIC), inspirational boost (SpC), Words of Creation (BoED). I think that's it.

Still, that's +1, +1, +1, and double, respectively.

[SangoProduction]

Song of the Heart (ECS), badge of valor (MIC), inspirational boost (SpC), Words of Creation (BoED). I think that's it.

Still, that's +1, +1, +1, and double, respectively.

That's nice. Just worked everything except Words of Creation in to my build. I might pick up Inspirational Boost later, if it's seeming that what I've got is not enough. (I don't want to go all out at the start.)

[Grod_The_Giant]

That's nice. Just worked everything except Words of Creation in to my build. I might pick up Inspirational Boost later, if it's seeming that what I've got is not enough. (I don't want to go all out at the start.)
Don't forget that you can trade a song for Song of the Heart, as per the rules in Eberron Campaign Setting.

[SangoProduction]

Don't forget that you can trade a song for Song of the Heart, as per the rules in Eberron Campaign Setting.

a song? What are you meaning?

[Esprit15]

Dragonfire (or ice, or acid, or sonic, or electric) Inspiration really shines when it can be added to lots of attacks. A Water Orc Barbarian that likes Power Attacking everything it sees is going to appreciate an increase to hit so that it doesn't need Shock Trooper to do its damage, but a Multi Weapon Fighting Thri-Kreen Rogue would probably prefer that its 15 attacks each have an extra couple d6 of damage, so that when half of them hit, the enemy is still very dead.

[Troacctid]

Song of the Heart (ECS), badge of valor (MIC), inspirational boost (SpC), Words of Creation (BoED). I think that's it.

Still, that's +1, +1, +1, and double, respectively.
Also masterwork mandolin, vest of legends, and Battle Howler of Gruumsh.


a song? What are you meaning?
ECS includes a rule that allows bards to trade out a bardic music ability for one of a list of selected bonus feats for which they meet the prerequisite. So you can ditch Suggestion or Inspire Greatness to get Song of the Heart as a bonus feat.

[SangoProduction]

Also masterwork mandolin, vest of legends, and Battle Howler of Gruumsh.


ECS includes a rule that allows bards to trade out a bardic music ability for one of a list of selected bonus feats for which they meet the prerequisite. So you can ditch Suggestion or Inspire Greatness to get Song of the Heart as a bonus feat.

Hmm. I don't remember Complete Adventurer ever mentioning masterwork instruments and special effects. Then again, I guess I never had any interest in playing a bard in the slightest. I highly doubt that interaction was intended though lol.

Also thanks for that clarification.

[Deadline]

Hmm. I don't remember Complete Adventurer ever mentioning masterwork instruments and special effects. Then again, I guess I never had any interest in playing a bard in the slightest. I highly doubt that interaction was intended though lol.

Also thanks for that clarification.

There are a couple of masterwork instruments that increase Inspire Courage (drums, for example), and some that have other effects.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Dragonfire (or ice, or acid, or sonic, or electric) Inspiration really shines when it can be added to lots of attacks. A Water Orc Barbarian that likes Power Attacking everything it sees is going to appreciate an increase to hit so that it doesn't need Shock Trooper to do its damage, but a Multi Weapon Fighting Thri-Kreen Rogue would probably prefer that its 15 attacks each have an extra couple d6 of damage, so that when half of them hit, the enemy is still very dead.
That's a point worth noting. While power attack builds can convert to-hit to damage quite efficiently, there are plenty of other combat options-- TWF, archery, and so on-- that have the opposite problem. Most 3.5 combatants are pretty accurate, in my experience...


Also masterwork mandolin
...I'm trying to think of a sillier instrument to play a stirring battle hymn on, and I'm absolutely blanking.

[Troacctid]

...I'm trying to think of a sillier instrument to play a stirring battle hymn on, and I'm absolutely blanking.
Banjo. Ukulele. Accordion. Tuba. Triangle. Theremin. Grand piano.

[Deadline]

...I'm trying to think of a sillier instrument to play a stirring battle hymn on, and I'm absolutely blanking.

Modern day(ish) Mandolin-equipped bard:

http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/555b3d6869bedd4d3d891f6a/the-man-behind-the-awesome-flamethrower-guitar-player-in-mad-max-fury-road-is-a-popular-australian-musician.jpg

[A_S]

Banjo. Ukulele. Accordion. Tuba. Triangle. Theremin. Grand piano.
Thumb piano.

*edit* MOOG.

[Malimar]

Banjo. Ukulele. Accordion. Tuba. Triangle. Theremin. Grand piano.

Kazoo. :smalltongue:

[MeeposFire]

If you allow words of creation (which to be honest in most campaigns is way overkill) you can certainly get double digit returns on song of courage and DFI. Taking the time to do both may not make you personally feel awesome (since no attacks in those rounds) but if you have a party that makes a lot of attack rolls it will make a huge difference in the party damage column.

As an aside there are mundane items (masterwork), magical items, feats, artifacts. weapons, and more that can be used to enhance your singing. I would recommend doing a google search on song of courage optimization if you really want the extent of what is out there.


However I would also recommend that unless you are in a high OP game that you do not pursue to many of those abilities together. A well made bard singing those two songs (or heck just song of courage alone) in a group with lost of attack rolls will steam roll encounters easily especially since most bard songs last until you stop singing (+5 rounds) which unless you talk to somebody or cast a spell can be until the very next fight (your DM may houseful some sort of endurance check if you try to abuse this). In particular words of creation is the big abuser since it doubles your bonus. That is way over the top unless you are playing with people making things like uber chargers and the like where you need to really go all out in order to fit in.

[Troacctid]

You can technically get double-digit returns with only +2d6 DFI damage. :smallwink:

[Korahir]

Another thought I just had:

Monster stats are peculiar in regards to AC and HP develpoment after a certain level. I think 14 is the breakpoint IIRC at which AC grows relatively slow but HP explode. This might also edge out dragonfire inspiration over inspire courage.

[Crake]

Another thought I just had:

Monster stats are peculiar in regards to AC and HP develpoment after a certain level. I think 14 is the breakpoint IIRC at which AC grows relatively slow but HP explode. This might also edge out dragonfire inspiration over inspire courage.

That depends on whether you're fighting primarily monsters, or NPCs with class levels.

My party have been fighting nothing but differently leveled drow, Even the level 6 mooks are pushing 34ish (Chained greater magic vestment on elven chain, +9AC, same on a heavy shield, +6, +5 dex, +4 deflection from mass shield of faith) AC with the buffed clerics hitting 44+ while they have have something like +30 to hit with their buffs at approximately level 15, their bonuses to hit rising to something like +30 on their first attack, so they have a pretty easy time hitting the mooks on their first attack, but it's not guarenteed, and the bosses, they are having trouble hitting to begin with.

Meanwhile, a CR 16 horned devil has almost the same AC as the mook drow at 35, so lone monsters without any organization will of course have much worse AC than properly geared and buffed NPCs.

If you're fighting the horned devil, you can probably afford to blow some of your attack bonues, but if you're fighting organized enmies, then you might need ever bonus you can squeeze out.

[Gemini476]

Which book is it that has the horn that increases your Bardic Music range to miles? 'Cause that's a fun item.

[Troacctid]

Which book is it that has the horn that increases your Bardic Music range to miles? 'Cause that's a fun item.
Sadly, that was 3.0 content overridden by the 3.5 version in CAd.

[Illven]

Question, people suggest taking draconic heritage. But that feat requires sorcerer level 1. Was that errataed or something? :smallconfused:

[danielxcutter]

Question, people suggest taking draconic heritage. But that feat requires sorcerer level 1. Was that errataed or something? :smallconfused:

I believe that Silverbrow Humans and Kobolds can take that feat without a single level in sorcerer, though the exact method escapes me right now.

[danielxcutter]

That's a point worth noting. While power attack builds can convert to-hit to damage quite efficiently, there are plenty of other combat options-- TWF, archery, and so on-- that have the opposite problem. Most 3.5 combatants are pretty accurate, in my experience...


...I'm trying to think of a sillier instrument to play a stirring battle hymn on, and I'm absolutely blanking.

I dunno, plenty of these (http://list25.com/25-bizarre-and-unique-musical-instruments/1/) could give it a run for it's money. :smallamused:

[Crake]

Question, people suggest taking draconic heritage. But that feat requires sorcerer level 1. Was that errataed or something? :smallconfused:

You can also go half dragon, or with a lenient DM, a dragonwrought kobold, but otherwise there is the dragontouched feat which gives you the dragonblood subtype and also let you qualify for draconic feats as a sorcerer of your character level.

Since this gives you the dragonblood subtype, it kinda makes going a dragonblooded race moot, so no need to actually go silverbrow human, and just go regular human for the extra skill points.

So feats wise, you would basically go: Dragontouched, Dragonfire Inspiration at level 1, level 3 get song of the heart, then at level 6 get draconic heritage to make your music sonic (or if you pick pyroclastic, sonic or fire at your own personal discretion).

[Mr Adventurer]

You'd still need Draconic Heritage at 1 wouldn't you? So a Human with Dragontouched and Draconic Heritage at 1st level to pick up other things later.

[RedMage125]

Why not use Lingering Song and do both?

Round 1: Use Dragonfire Inspiration giving +XD6 damage.

Round 2: Stop your Dragonfire Inspiration performance. Use Inspire Courage normally giving +X to hit/+X Damage.

End result 4rounds of +X To Hit/+XD6 damage. 1 round +X to hit/+X Damage.

If you go Heartfire Fanner 5 or Seeker of Secrets 2 you get a second performance at the same time. Then you can double down from the get go...

Won't work.

Using Dragon fire Inspiration is still a form of Inspire Courage. And you cannot benefit from more than one Inspire Courage at the same time.

[stanprollyright]

Won't work.

Using Dragon fire Inspiration is still a form of Inspire Courage. And you cannot benefit from more than one Inspire Courage at the same time.

Why not? They're not the same bonus anymore.

[Crake]

You'd still need Draconic Heritage at 1 wouldn't you? So a Human with Dragontouched and Draconic Heritage at 1st level to pick up other things later.

Nothing says you need to be first level for draconic heritage, merely that you have at least 1 level of sorcerer (which you qualify for via dragontouched).

[Hiro Quester]

As stated though, ultimately, the answer becomes "why not both?" Lingering song is a waste of a feat in this circumstance, when you can have a harmonizing weapon (MiC p35, a mere +1 bonus) which effectively extends the duration to 15 rounds (10 more rounds of free singing, plus 5 rounds of lingering effect)

Not exactly. A harmonizing weapon switches to a new song the round after you switch. So after you stop singing DFI to sing IC, you only get one extra round of IC (then the effect lasts 5 rounds after that).

The Lingering Song feat makes all your music effects last 10 rounds after your allies stop hearing it. That's much better for layering a bardic music effect each round and having them last the whole combat (assuming combat sometimes lasts more than six rounds).

E.g. With Lingering Song, if you sing or play DFI in the first round that will last until round 11. Then if you sing or play IC the second round, its effects will last until round 12. You can then switch to yet another bardic music for another effect (take a round to use Doomspeak on the BBEG, or the Heartfire Fanner song that grants bonus fighter feats, or Inspire Greatness) and have its effects last until round 13. Then another. And another.

This kind of layering works particularly well if you are in the habit --which I recommend-- of casting Harmomize (RoS), so starting a bardic music is a move action; this can be a very effective way to buff allies/debuff enemies, and still have time to cast spells, or attack, etc as well.

With a harmonizing weapon the first effect will only last until round 7, the second until round 8, the third until round 9. Only the last song you have been singing has its effects for 16 rounds.

So a harmonizing weapon is great if you only sing IC then move to other tactics.

But if you are layering many different bardic music effects, and if your combats often last more than 6 or 7 rounds, then Lingering Song can be well worth the feat.

[Illven]

You can also go half dragon, or with a lenient DM, a dragonwrought kobold, but otherwise there is the dragontouched feat which gives you the dragonblood subtype and also let you qualify for draconic feats as a sorcerer of your character level.

Since this gives you the dragonblood subtype, it kinda makes going a dragonblooded race moot, so no need to actually go silverbrow human, and just go regular human for the extra skill points.

So feats wise, you would basically go: Dragontouched, Dragonfire Inspiration at level 1, level 3 get song of the heart, then at level 6 get draconic heritage to make your music sonic (or if you pick pyroclastic, sonic or fire at your own personal discretion).

You are the hero I deserve. Thank you. :smallsmile:

[RedMage125]

Why not? They're not the same bonus anymore.



A cool idea about layering IC with DFI.

DFI is not a new kind of bardic magic to use. It is a variant bonus you can grant when using Inspire Courage.



When you use your bardic music to inspire courage,
you can choose to imbue your allies with dragonfire.

They are both Inspire Courage.

[Siosilvar]

DFI is not a new kind of bardic magic to use. It is a variant bonus you can grant when using Inspire Courage.



They are both Inspire Courage.

A bonus to attack rolls and bonus damage dice do not overlap, so the stacking rules don't apply. Being from the same source only matters when they apply a bonus to the same roll - so arguably the flat damage and DFI dice don't stack, but the attack bonus definitely applies.

IMO it's reasonable to house rule otherwise, but RAW it works.

[RedMage125]

A bonus to attack rolls and bonus damage dice do not overlap, so the stacking rules don't apply. Being from the same source only matters when they apply a bonus to the same roll - so arguably the flat damage and DFI dice don't stack, but the attack bonus definitely applies.

IMO it's reasonable to house rule otherwise, but RAW it works.

This isn't about stacking bonuses of the same type. It's about benefiting from the same buff twice.

If you are already under the effect of Inspire Courage, you cannot gain the effects of another Inspire Courage.

[Siosilvar]

This isn't about stacking bonuses of the same type. It's about benefiting from the same buff twice.

If you are already under the effect of Inspire Courage, you cannot gain the effects of another Inspire Courage.

The spell rules do imply that the second one would suppress the first one, but they specify "spells". In context I'm completely certain it was intended to apply to generic "effects" as well, but it's not in the wording.

[Hogsy]

You give up +1 to attack, in exchange for +2.5 average damage increase over Inspire Courage. 2.5 doesn't sound like a lot, while +1 to attack is an effective 5% increase in damage most of the time....which means that they'd need to deal at least 20 times the added damage each attack to be worth it.

So, if they deal at least 50 damage per attack, it's no longer worth it. But, if they are low level, that won't be much of an issue.

Am I correct in my assumptions?

All that goes out the window when your inspire courage is giving +12/+12 so your barbarian is now dealing +12d6 with his greatsword for 14d6+modifiers or whatever and didn't need the +10 to hit anyway.

Now, equip yourself with a gun, pick up a belt of dexterity +6 and make 4 attacks a round vs touch ac that each deal like 13d6 damage. If guns are a no-go, you can still pick up a few bow feats and a bow and deal an average of 24d6 or 36d6 a round(manyshot + rapidshot). You could even use those stupid feats that take a standard action so you target touch AC or something along those lines for a mere 14d6(with a "large" bow through that one divine spell) +dex which is better than any offensive single-target damage spell you can cast.

[rrwoods]

This isn't about stacking bonuses of the same type. It's about benefiting from the same buff twice.

If you are already under the effect of Inspire Courage, you cannot gain the effects of another Inspire Courage.
Says what rule though? The rules are explicit about bonuses from the same effect overlapping, but I believe that's as far as it goes.

[Troacctid]

I'm not aware of any rule that would prevent you from benefiting from both effects simultaneously. Is there a citation for that?

[ZamielVanWeber]

There is a rule that bonuses from the same source do not stack, but at most that would prevent the damage from the two different inspire courage from stacking. The Dragon fire one gives no bonus to hit so that should cleanly work with the other inspire's bonus to hit.

Edit: Found it

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession).

[Siosilvar]

That was the first one I thought of, second rules citation is from the Spells chapter of the PHB:

Stacking Effects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#stackingEffects)


Same Effect with Differing Results

The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

...which as I mentioned very strongly implies that it applies to all magical effects but technically doesn't say that. And even if it does, whichever Inspire Courage was second would take precedence.

edit: Checked Pathfinder, it has the exact same wording.

[Troacctid]

But you left out the example, which is very important for establishing the scope of the rule.

For example, a series of polymorph spells might turn a creature into a mouse, a lion, and then a snail. In this case, the last spell in the series trumps the others.

[SangoProduction]

But you left out the example, which is very important for establishing the scope of the rule.

Which, is, in fact, of critical importance.

[Siosilvar]

How is that "critical[ly] importan[t]"? If that rule applies, the RAW wording technically excludes Su effects like Inspire Courage and we fall through to the stacking rules. If it doesn't apply, then we go straight to the stacking rules anyway.

It's also not in the SRD rules text, and I'm not spending the effort to type that up by hand from my hard copies of the rulebooks.

[Troacctid]

I don't mean whether it applies to (Su) abilities or not, I mean the scope of what counts as "Same Effect with Differing Results." It's important because the example is of a spell that has effects that obviously can't really apply at the same time as another casting of it. Using inspire courage followed by dragonfire inspiration isn't really very much like polymorphing someone into a lion, and then polymorphing them again into a mouse.

DFI + IC should really fall more under "Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths" and "Different Bonus Names."

[Siosilvar]

Applying two completely different types of bonuses would seem to be the textbook definition of "different results", unless I'm missing something? :smallconfused:

[Hiro Quester]

It's more like casting a heroics spell to grant the recipient of the spell a fighter feat (he takes TWF) then casting it again (he takes blind fight, too; arguably he could instead take take ITWF, but let's keep it simple).

One use of IC grants bonus to attack. Another grants DFI bonus to damage. These effects are completely independent, and don't interact. Each effect lasts for five rounds after you stop singing (or 10 with Lingering Song).

[stanprollyright]

Applying two completely different types of bonuses would seem to be the textbook definition of "different results", unless I'm missing something? :smallconfused:

Riddle me this: if you cast Protection From Energy (fire) and follow it up next round with Protection From Energy (cold), do you still have Fire Resistance?

[danielxcutter]

Riddle me this: if you cast Protection From Energy (fire) and follow it up next round with Protection From Energy (cold), do you still have Fire Resistance?

I... think so? One protects from cold and the other from fire... Right?

[Troacctid]

Basically the same thing here.

[Siosilvar]

It's more like casting a heroics spell to grant the recipient of the spell a fighter feat (he takes TWF) then casting it again (he takes blind fight, too; arguably he could instead take take ITWF, but let's keep it simple).

One use of IC grants bonus to attack. Another grants DFI bonus to damage. These effects are completely independent, and don't interact. Each effect lasts for five rounds after you stop singing (or 10 with Lingering Song).

Bad example, heroics specifically can't do that.


Riddle me this: if you cast Protection From Energy (fire) and follow it up next round with Protection From Energy (cold), do you still have Fire Resistance?

If I actually played 3.5 per RAW, then my answer would be no.

[stanprollyright]

If I actually played 3.5 per RAW, then my answer would be no.

Well that's just rude. Forcing your beliefs on other people when it doesn't affect you...

EDIT: Full disclosure: I haven't played 3.5 in years

[Hiro Quester]

Bad example, heroics specifically can't do that.
...
If I actually played 3.5 per RAW, then my answer would be no.

Perhaps you could explain why? I don't see anything in RAW of heroics or protection from energy that forbids a second casting with a different effect.

[Siosilvar]

Perhaps you could explain why? I don't see anything in RAW of heroics or protection from energy that forbids a second casting with a different effect.

Oh wonderful, dnd-wiki is at it again with homebrew taking the first Google result. Scratch that, then, I looked up the actual rules text and it doesn't specify that it can't be stacked.

Either way, even your wording there implies that it would fall under "the same spell...produc varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once." While the example is of [I]polymorph effects obviating each other, I don't consider that fundamentally different from multiple castings of any spell.

[Crake]

Oh wonderful, dnd-wiki is at it again with homebrew taking the first Google result. Scratch that, then, I looked up the actual rules text and it doesn't specify that it can't be stacked.

Either way, even your wording there implies that it would fall under "the same spell...produc varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once." While the example is of [I]polymorph effects obviating each other, I don't consider that fundamentally different from multiple castings of any spell.

Note that the rules on "Same effect with differing results" says that "Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others."

This implies that that is not always the case, and thus common sense comes into play to determine what counts as "trumping" the others. Obviously, with polymorph, you can only have one physical shape, so a new polymorph will override the old, or hell, even an alter self will do the same. But with Resist Energy (Cold) and Resist Energy (Fire) there's nothing stopping them from both functioning.

Edit: To further add to this: It says "same effect with differing results", not "same spell" or "same ability". So in this case, the effect is the outcome of the ability in question. Regular inspire courage and dragonfire inspiration are both inspire courage abilities, but they produce differing effects. Same applies to the protection from cold example. Same spell, different effect.

[Siosilvar]

"Same spell, different effect" is literally the wording of the rule. The actual text takes precedence over the section header. It's using "spell" and "effect" partially interchangably, which is why I initially interpreted it as not preventing the IC stacking, but claiming it doesn't mean exactly what it says is pretty far out there as far as interpretations of RAW goes.

Edit: I do accept your interpretation of allowing non-conflicting effects as the intent of the rule, and that's likely how I would run it if it came up, but I also don't believe it's directly supported by the text.

[Crake]

"Same spell, different effect" is literally the wording of the rule. The actual text takes precedence over the section header. It's using "spell" and "effect" partially interchangably, which is why I initially interpreted it as not preventing the IC stacking, but claiming it doesn't mean exactly what it says is pretty far out there as far as interpretations of RAW goes.

Edit: I do accept your interpretation of allowing non-conflicting effects as the intent of the rule, and that's likely how I would run it if it came up, but I also don't believe it's directly supported by the text.

Can you direct me to which rule you're looking at? Because the one I'm looking at, viewable here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#combiningMagicalEffects) on the srd, or page 171-172 of the PHB at no point says "Same spell, different effect", it says "Same effect with differing results".

[Siosilvar]

And immediately after that it goes on to clarify "the same spell can sometimes produce varying effects" which I've now quoted for the third time (does that summon such a spell, the same way it would Beetlejuice or Bloody Mary?). In standard American English, and indeed in context as well, "varying" and "different" are synonyms.

[RedMage125]

It's more like casting a heroics spell to grant the recipient of the spell a fighter feat (he takes TWF) then casting it again (he takes blind fight, too; arguably he could instead take take ITWF, but let's keep it simple).

One use of IC grants bonus to attack. Another grants DFI bonus to damage. These effects are completely independent, and don't interact. Each effect lasts for five rounds after you stop singing (or 10 with Lingering Song).

This is a great example to highlight my point.

And Sio...the rules say "same effect, differing results" and uses spells as an example.

So just like the Protection From Energy example, one cannot get 2 IC benefits at once.

[Crake]

This is a great example to highlight my point.

And Sio...the rules say "same effect, differing results" and uses spells as an example.

So just like the Protection From Energy example, one cannot get 2 IC benefits at once.

You seem to be quite adamant in the idea that two castings of protection from energy vs different energy types would not stack.

Let's break down the rule shall we?


The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once.

Fairly strait forward. Spells (or other magical abilities) can sometimes produce various different effects. Inspire courage can give a +X morale bonus to attack and damage, or a +Xd6 fire damage bonus. Or protection from energy can protect against a specified energy type. Or (the example given for those looking at the book) Polymorph, and the various shapes it can change you into.


Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others.

Note where it says usually. This outright states that this is not always the case. By that standard, there is a decent amount of the time where this rule does not apply.


None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled

This part is also pretty important. The previous effects are still in place, nothing is gone, nothing is lost.


, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

This part is where it all comes together, namely the bit where it says "their effects become irrelevant". So for a spell like polymorph, if you cast it again, the previous casting becomes irrelevant, because the second casting completely changes your form. On the other hand, a second casting of protection from energy on a different energy type does not make the first casting irrelevant. Likewise applies to two different uses of inspire courage, if they produce different effects, because one does not make the other irrelevant.

On a final note:


And immediately after that it goes on to clarify "the same spell can sometimes produce varying effects" which I've now quoted for the third time (does that summon such a spell, the same way it would Beetlejuice or Bloody Mary?). In standard American English, and indeed in context as well, "varying" and "different" are synonyms.

I'm sorry, but the part where you said


"Same spell, different effect" is literally the wording of the rule.

Had me looking for literally that wording. Or did you mean literally in a figurative sense? The line you quoted isn't even close to what you literally quoted.

[RedMage125]

You seem to be quite adamant in the idea that two castings of protection from energy vs different energy types would not stack.

Let's break down the rule shall we?



Fairly strait forward. Spells (or other magical abilities) can sometimes produce various different effects. Inspire courage can give a +X morale bonus to attack and damage, or a +Xd6 fire damage bonus. Or protection from energy can protect against a specified energy type. Or (the example given for those looking at the book) Polymorph, and the various shapes it can change you into.



Note where it says usually. This outright states that this is not always the case. By that standard, there is a decent amount of the time where this rule does not apply.
You were close to the right track until you got here. You assume just because there ARE exceptions that you get to decide where they are. No, Specific Trumps General. If there is a case where the spell can be cast multiple times and effects stack, the spell will say so. If it does not say so, it is not one of those cases, and falls under the general rule.




This part is also pretty important. The previous effects are still in place, nothing is gone, nothing is lost.
That only means if one is dispelled, the other is still in place. If you cast PFE (fire), and then PFE (cold), you only get the protection from cold. But if that is dispelled or enough cold damage is taken to remove the cold protection, the fire one resumes effect, assuming the duration has not expired.




This part is where it all comes together, namely the bit where it says "their effects become irrelevant". So for a spell like polymorph, if you cast it again, the previous casting becomes irrelevant, because the second casting completely changes your form. On the other hand, a second casting of protection from energy on a different energy type does not make the first casting irrelevant. Likewise applies to two different uses of inspire courage, if they produce different effects, because one does not make the other irrelevant.
Nothing you quoted explicitly states that either Protection From Energy nor Inspire Courage are exceptions to "their effects become irrelevant". Nor does anything in those spell/effect descriptions say this. Therefore, their previous effects DO become irrelevant.

So, you can still only be under the effect of one IC at a time. Nothing you have quoted negates that. It just means if you use IC (DFI) and then regular IC, you only get the bonus to attack and damage. If that is dispelled, you then get the DFI bonus.

If it worked the way you claim, it would say so in the description. As an example, Enhance Wild Shape (Spell Compendium) says:
"A druid can be affected by more than
one enhance wild shape spell at a time,
but a different wild shape enhancement
must be chosen each time."
That is the only way that the last iteration of a spell or effect is NOT made irrelevant by a new one. When it SPECIFICALLY says so.

There are other specific exceptions as well, that work in the other direction. Energized Shield (Spell Compendium), for example, explicitly states that a target cannot be under the effect of more than one at a time. So if you cast Energized Shield (Fire), and then Energized Shield (Cold) a few rounds later, the fire version completely ends on the target. As opposed to Resist Energy (Fire), followed by Resist Energy (Cold); the combination of which would only give the target Cold Resistance, unless it was dispelled, when the fire resistance would still be in effect.

[Crake]

You were close to the right track until you got here. You assume just because there ARE exceptions that you get to decide where they are. No, Specific Trumps General. If there is a case where the spell can be cast multiple times and effects stack, the spell will say so. If it does not say so, it is not one of those cases, and falls under the general rule.

You're making leaps of logic here. Nothing prior to "Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others." is stating that effects are lost. It's only the next part, where it states, after specifying that none of the spells are removed in any way, that their effects become irrelevant, and thus only the last holds.

To put that in a logically equivilent way: Sometimes spells in the series do not trump the others. When their effects become irrelevant, the last spell in the series lasts, but the others are not dispelled or removed.

Now taking that logic, you look at resist energy fire and cold. Their effects do not make one another irrelevant, because you can have multiple different kinds of energy resistance. On the other hand, polymorph changes your form, and you can only have 1 form, thus a second casting makes the first irrelevant.

That is the general rule.

[RedMage125]

You're making leaps of logic here. Nothing prior to "Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others." is stating that effects are lost. It's only the next part, where it states, after specifying that none of the spells are removed in any way, that their effects become irrelevant, and thus only the last holds.

To put that in a logically equivilent way: Sometimes spells in the series do not trump the others. When their effects become irrelevant, the last spell in the series lasts, but the others are not dispelled or removed.

Now taking that logic, you look at resist energy fire and cold. Their effects do not make one another irrelevant, because you can have multiple different kinds of energy resistance. On the other hand, polymorph changes your form, and you can only have 1 form, thus a second casting makes the first irrelevant.

That is the general rule.

But you have to twist words around to read it that way, so...no. That's not how it works. Nothing about it says that "effects becoming irrelevant" is some kind of condition which causes the later spell to trump the older, which is how you are trying to twist it. You don't just get to add "when their effects become irrelevant..." to the RAW.

No. Quite simply, the general rule is that when the same spell or effect has different/varying results, the most recent iteration trumps the older ones, and the older ones' effects are irrelevant.

[Snowbluff]

I generally think IC is better if your team already does decent damage. Being able to actually hit with your iterative attacks is nice, and IC also affect non damaging abilities, like debuff spells.

Of course, the swinginess of DFI can provide some impr sauce damage as well.

[Korahir]

The ongoing discussion about resist energy and if it stacks or not, is an discussion 11 years old documented in a thread over at EN world (and there are new iterations every now and then: pathfinder uses the same wording i.e., same discussion in the paizo rules forum).
Both readings of the rules have been argued and follow logical patterns. When the RAW involve words like "Usually" and "Irrelevant" it is no wonder.
I myself follow the reading: resist energy produces various effects not different results. Polymorph, shapechange and others produce the same effect with different results. So the same effect, different result does not apply to resist energy.
I understand other interpetations of this old rules lawyering gem, but I think it is a clear piece of badly worded RAW.

[SangoProduction]

The ongoing discussion about resist energy and if it stacks or not, is an discussion 11 years old documented in a thread over at EN world (and there are new iterations every now and then: pathfinder uses the same wording i.e., same discussion in the paizo rules forum).
Both readings of the rules have been argued and follow logical patterns. When the RAW involve words like "Usually" and "Irrelevant" it is no wonder.
I myself follow the reading: resist energy produces various effects not different results. Polymorph, shapechange and others produce the same effect with different results. So the same effect, different result does not apply to resist energy.
I understand other interpetations of this old rules lawyering gem, but I think it is a clear piece of badly worded RAW.

I agree. Thanks for ending that little bit of repeated history.