Stalwart battle sorcerer vs common Sorcadin build

[Lokiron]

Hey all,

I'm tinkering with a sorcerer gish build, and I am finding that the stalwart battle sorcerer (assuming it's legal) has a worse reputation than it deserves. The usual complaint is that it has too few spells known. Compared to a pure sorcerer this may be true, but there is a case to be made for it, in comparison to a paladin/sorcerer base for a gish.

So the compared builds are fairly "straight forward" benchmark meeting gishes:
SBS: Stalwart battle sorcerer 7 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Stalwart battle sorcerer 15 (or Sacred Exorcist 8)
PaS: Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 4 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Sacred Exorcist 8

Now, I am not going to get into all the differences of those two. Obviously, the PaS has better saves and profeciencies, but the SBS has quite a bit more hit points. The SBS actually gets BAB 11 one level earlier than PaS.
The observation that was most interesting, to me, was the comparison of the two casting tables: spells known and spells per day.

I'm unsure of how to present these. I have made screen shots and below are links to those. Below are: SBS tables, PaS tables, SBS minus PaS tables.

Stalwart battle sorcerer tables (https://www.dropbox.com/s/tpre7028z9smyyc/SBS.png?dl=0)
Sorcadin tables (https://www.dropbox.com/s/0m1icv6nvgmcn6q/PaS.png?dl=0)
SBS minus PaS tables (https://www.dropbox.com/s/oe1ot6rxiyg0aj1/VS.png?dl=0)

What we see is that the SBS acquires higher level spells earlier through the entire career. Not only that, the PaS needs a lot of levels to overtake the SBS in terms of spells known. For instance, let us look at 4th level spells. The SBS gets 4th level spells at character level 8. The PaS needs character level 10. And even until character level 15 they have the same number of 4th level spells known. The PaS is up 1 4th level spell per day by level 13, though. The PaS eventually catches up on most spell levels, but 8th is still equal at character level 20, while SBS is just straight better at 9th level spells (same spells known, but more per day).

I suppose this boils down to what you want your gish to do. Have more and earlier higher level spells, or more and later lower level spells. The SBS is also caster level 20 vs caster level 18 of the PaS.

Comments are very welcome :smallsmile:


Note on Sacred Exorcist: This PrC requires Dismissal as a known spell. PaS will be level 17 before he has a single 5th level spell more than the SBS... Both will spend a very valuable 5th level spell known getting into it.

EDIT: Inserted correct link for PaS tables.
EDIT2: I have added a link to a google sheets document with all the information I'm basing my assertions on.

Google sheets document with gish spell tables (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lIPj05qfeoWpSwem6i9btElMQ34pEgEC69e4bMjkSes/pubhtml)

[Troacctid]

Pssh, whoever said Sorcadin was any good? Losing two spell levels when you're already behind? Yuck. No thank you! Divine grace is a fine ability, but it's certainly not good enough to be worth losing two caster levels.

Stalwart battle sorcerer gets the flak that it does because its drawbacks carry over after you prestige, but its benefits don't, which is really annoying. It means that you gain some power in the early game, but you sacrifice a lot of power at later levels.

[Grim Reader]

I always wanted to try a SBS with a level of Sand Shaper for Desert Insight.

Hmmm... could you drop an Insight spell to the "one less spell known.." effect?

[Lokiron]

Pssh, whoever said Sorcadin was any good? Losing two spell levels when you're already behind? Yuck. No thank you! Divine grace is a fine ability, but it's certainly not good enough to be worth losing two caster levels.

Stalwart battle sorcerer gets the flak that it does because its drawbacks carry over after you prestige, but its benefits don't, which is really annoying. It means that you gain some power in the early game, but you sacrifice a lot of power at later levels.

Is your point that gishes are not worthwhile, compared to full casters, or that sorcerers make bad gish bases?

In a gish build, divine grace is not the point of the paladin levels; it is icing. The point is to get BAB and proficiencies to qualify for PrCs. I suppose you could use a single level of paladin, but this delays PrC entry.

EDIT: Also, with a single level of paladin, it doesn't look like you'll get BAB +16.

[Mr Adventurer]

The big problem, as has been pointed out, is that the instant you multi class out of SBS, you lose all of the benefits while keeping all of the downsides. With straight Sorcerer, you lose all of your 0 class features and your crappy chassis when you go.

I don't think I would ever use SBS and then multiclass out. Just crazy.

[Lokiron]

I always wanted to try a SBS with a level of Sand Shaper for Desert Insight.

Hmmm... could you drop an Insight spell to the "one less spell known.." effect?

I don't think you can drop Desert Insight spell as battle or stalwart penalties.

However, the build does have room for 2 sand shaper levels, but to still meet the benchmark (+16 BAB, 9th level spells, if you care for it), you need a single level of a full BAB class. Total levels: SBS 12 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Sand Shaper 2 / Full BAB 1. In the end, this will be a strictly worse caster than the PaS above (except for the Sand Shaper features).

[Lokiron]

The big problem, as has been pointed out, is that the instant you multi class out of SBS, you lose all of the benefits while keeping all of the downsides. With straight Sorcerer, you lose all of your 0 class features and your crappy chassis when you go.

I don't think I would ever use SBS and then multiclass out. Just crazy.

Comparing to straight sorcerer is the problem. A pure sorcerer cannot enter Abjurant Champion before level 11. The thing is, I argue that the SBS is better than a pure sorcerer of 2 levels lower, in terms of casting. That is what the Sorcadin is, after all.

Also, I don't understand why you wouldn't want to pick up Abjurant Champion on a SBS chassis. You gain full BAB and nice class features. You lose 1 HP per level and familiar progression. Nothing else.

[Grim Reader]

I don't think you can drop Desert Insight spell as battle or stalwart penalties.

However, the build does have room for 2 sand shaper levels, but to still meet the benchmark (+16 BAB, 9th level spells, if you care for it), you need a single level of a full BAB class. Total levels: SBS 12 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Sand Shaper 2 / Full BAB 1. In the end, this will be a strictly worse caster than the PaS above (except for the Sand Shaper features).

I am thinking it might be more fun to play though. The Insight spells give you a strong skeleton of spells known, and you can use your sorcerer picks to fill in the gaps. However, something like SBS 12 /Sand shaper 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant champion 5 hits the benchmark. However, once you go SBS, PrCing out is painful.

[Lokiron]

I am thinking it might be more fun to play though. The Insight spells give you a strong skeleton of spells known, and you can use your sorcerer picks to fill in the gaps. However, something like SBS 12 /Sand shaper 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant champion 5 hits the benchmark. However, once you go SBS, PrCing out is painful.

I don't think you have the proficiencies to qualify for spellsword with that build.

[Lokiron]

Another way to formulate my general observation is that gishes very often use 2 levels of a non-caster class, in order to qualify for PrCs. Because the can SBS avoid this, its casting abilities, at level X, should be compared to a sorcerer of level X-2.

[Grim Reader]

I don't think you have the proficiencies to qualify for spellsword with that build.

You need the Militia regional feat, and medium and heavy armour proficiency. Three feats. Which brings the question of what the last point of BaB is worth. A Spellsword dip does give other goodies, of course.


Another way to formulate my general observation is that gishes very often use 2 levels of a non-caster class, in order to qualify for PrCs. Because the can SBS avoid this, its casting abilities, at level X, should be compared to a sorcerer of level X-2.

In general, access to spells one level higher is always flat out better. However, some builds only consider level 20, when both builds have 9th level spells anyway, so the power through the rest of the levels are not as obvious. Also, another reason the SBS is not mentioned much as a gish is, it is a perfectly serviceable 20-level build, which penalizes PrCing out. So you don't do much with it. It doesn't get a lot of attention for the same reason as 20 levels in other base classes doesn't get that much attention. You have one dimension less to build in, because the build mostly happens through feats.

[Lokiron]

You need the Militia regional feat, and medium and heavy armour proficiency. Three feats. Which brings the question of what the last point of BaB is worth. A Spellsword dip does give other goodies, of course.

Eh, too much tax for my taste, but yes, it's doable.



In general, access to spells one level higher is always flat out better. However, some builds only consider level 20, when both builds have 9th level spells anyway, so the power through the rest of the levels are not as obvious. Also, another reason the SBS is not mentioned much as a gish is, it is a perfectly serviceable 20-level build, which penalizes PrCing out. So you don't do much with it. It doesn't get a lot of attention for the same reason as 20 levels in other base classes doesn't get that much attention. You have one dimension less to build in, because the build mostly happens through feats.

The bolded I don't completely agree with, as my OP shows. I'd say Abjurant Champion, overall, improves the SBS. Likewise, I'd consider Sacred Exorcist a boost, if you can overcome the prerequisites, which are actually quite tough on any sorcerer... Still, it is not so much that SBS is good to stay in, it's that Sacred Exorcist is difficult to get into.

[Grim Reader]

Yes, it can be improved. Abjurant champion and some others. But you don't have to is what I meant, it does play perfectly adequately straight out of the box.

[Lokiron]

Yes, it can be improved. Abjurant champion and some others. But you don't have to is what I meant, it does play perfectly adequately straight out of the box.

Yes :smallsmile:

[Grod_The_Giant]

Why the second level of Sand Shaper? You only need the one level to get all your bonus spells known.

Honestly, I think the SBS' main advantage is that it IS a single-class build that does most of what you'd want out of a gish. It's much more palatable to lower-op groups then your standard heavily-multiclassing build.

[Lokiron]

Why the second level of Sand Shaper? You only need the one level to get all your bonus spells known.
The build can "afford it". I have not looked into wheter or not I'd use it. I suppose there are sandy features?


Honestly, I think the SBS' main advantage is that it IS a single-class build that does most of what you'd want out of a gish. It's much more palatable to lower-op groups then your standard heavily-multiclassing build.
Of the gish builds I've seen, it is one of the earliest to get 9th level spells. That's got to count for something, not just being easy to build.

[SirNibbles]

I did a theoretical gish build recently. It's made with Wizard but you should be able to go Sorcerer just as easily.

Warblade 1 > Fighter 1 > Wizard 4 > Spellsword 1 > Abjurant Champion 5
BAB 1 > BAB 2 > BAB 4 > BAB 5 > BAB 10

At level 7, you have caster level 5 and BAB 5. At level 12, you have caster level 10 and BAB 10. You also get the fighter bonus feat, tons of proficiencies, and stances from Warblade.


As many have mentioned, the reason Stalwart Battle Sorcerer is bad is because you get the bonuses only when you actually take Sorcerer levels but you take the penalties all the time, even if you take a prestige class. It's not worth the short-term investment. Splashing Fighter or Paladin will have short term penalties whose impacts gradually fade over time while you keep the benefits.

[Lokiron]

I did a theoretical gish build recently. It's made with Wizard but you should be able to go Sorcerer just as easily.

Warblade 1 > Fighter 1 > Wizard 4 > Spellsword 1 > Abjurant Champion 5
BAB 1 > BAB 2 > BAB 4 > BAB 5 > BAB 10

At level 7, you have caster level 5 and BAB 5. At level 12, you have caster level 10 and BAB 10. You also get the fighter bonus feat, tons of proficiencies, and stances from Warblade.


As many have mentioned, the reason Stalwart Battle Sorcerer is bad is because you get the bonuses only when you actually take Sorcerer levels but you take the penalties all the time, even if you take a prestige class. It's not worth the short-term investment. Splashing Fighter or Paladin will have short term penalties whose impacts gradually fade over time while you keep the benefits.

Did you look at the SBS minus PaS tables? By the time the MC catches up, the SBS will be further ahead. It's basically the "don't lose caster levels - ever" philosophy applied.

[Troacctid]

I mean, it might be worth the short-term investment if you're starting at level 1? Squishiness is a big problem at low levels. Plus, it is almost certainly better than duskblade, and duskblade is not exactly trash.

Personally, though, I prefer Stalwart by itself. It's much cheaper, since you don't lose spell slots and you're only down a single known spell.

[Lokiron]

What constitutes short term? The SBS is ahead of the PaS at all levels.
I grant there are better options involving wizard (although this is still behind on even levels), but this is more wizard being better than sorcerer than SBS being bad.

[Troacctid]

Short-term compared to a regular, non-battle sorcerer, who is significantly better at high levels.

[Lokiron]

Short-term compared to a regular, non-battle sorcerer, who is significantly better at high levels.

You're probably right about that. It's a different point than the premise of this thread, though.

[Mr Adventurer]

Comparing to straight sorcerer is the problem. A pure sorcerer cannot enter Abjurant Champion before level 11. The thing is, I argue that the SBS is better than a pure sorcerer of 2 levels lower, in terms of casting. That is what the Sorcadin is, after all.

Also, I don't understand why you wouldn't want to pick up Abjurant Champion on a SBS chassis. You gain full BAB and nice class features. You lose 1 HP per level and familiar progression. Nothing else.

Well, two things about the Abjurant Champion:

That comment is more about how balls-great that class is, than any vindication of SBS.

Also, by sacrificing so many spell slots you're limiting your access to some of those class features.

[Lokiron]

Well, two things about the Abjurant Champion:

That comment is more about how balls-great that class is, than any vindication of SBS.

I am talking about gishes, and AbC is core to many gishes, including the presented SBS. My only point, really, is that the SBS is under-appreciated compared to a basic Sorcadin build. One poster did not appreciate Sorcadin, and that is a fair point.


Also, by sacrificing so many spell slots you're limiting your access to some of those class features.

How many do you really sacrifice, though? Again, don't compare with the full sorcerer. The answer is, at 20th level when the sacrifice is the greatest, you go from 56 spells per day to 50 spells per day. The difference in spells per day through the levels are: 6, 8, 1, 2, 2, 1, 2, 1, 1, 0, 0, -1, -1, -2, -2, -3, -3, -4, -4, -6. Are you really saying this is "so many spell slots"? If you are, that's fair, it just seems to me you may not have the actual numbers at hand.

[Lokiron]

Also, by sacrificing so many spell slots you're limiting your access to some of those class features.

So, I want to address this once more. As I've said, the SBS has more high level spells. If you assign a weight to those higher level spells, like say the spell point system from UA, you will find that the SBS is ahead of the Sorcadin, in terms of "spell points per day", at every level except 20th. This is also the case if the weight of the spell is simply the spell level, not the required caster level (EDIT: this quite directly measures Arcane Boost and Arcane Strike potential).

So I will say that it is simply not true, that the SBS is inferior at fueling the Abjurant Champion's Arcane Boost.


Weights: 0 1 3 5 7 9 11 13 15 17

Level SBS PaS Difference
1 2 0 2
2 3 0 3
3 4 3 1
4 11 4 7
5 14 5 9
6 27 15 12
7 35 18 17
8 54 36 18
9 66 44 22
10 91 70 21
11 107 82 25
12 138 116 22
13 158 132 26
14 195 174 21
15 219 194 25
16 262 244 18
17 290 268 22
18 339 326 13
19 371 354 17
20 405 420 -15

[Grod_The_Giant]

Also, 20th level comparisons aren't the most helpful measures. I'd rather see comparisons in the 3-12 range, where most games spend the majority of their time.

[Lokiron]

Also, 20th level comparisons aren't the most helpful measures. I'd rather see comparisons in the 3-12 range, where most games spend the majority of their time.

Indeed, I am trying to present this at all levels. And I do think the SBS looks really good (still, compared to other "basic" gishes) from level 1 to about level 14-18.