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Stormcrow
2007-07-16, 04:21 AM
Trying to make a list of ways to make someone flat-footed and thus vulnerable to sneak attack.

List on?

Dhavaer
2007-07-16, 04:23 AM
Distract opponent spell (CompAdv, SC)
Balance check (grease)
Surprise

Dairun Cates
2007-07-16, 04:23 AM
Trying to make a list of ways to make someone flat-footed and thus vulnerable to sneak attack.

List on?

Let's see. Flanking, Being first in initiative, being tangled, shooting them while they're not paying attention, etc.

Armads
2007-07-16, 04:25 AM
Sapphire Nightmare Blade, a maneuver from ToB.
Death from Above, a maneuver from ToB
A lot of Tiger Claw strikes in ToB that involve you jumping over the opponent
Starting first in Init
Being tiny and using the Confound The Big Folk (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Confound_The_Big_Folk) tactical feat.
Using the Gloom Razor tactical feat from ToB.
If you want to flank the opponent, the Clarion Commander feat from ToB lets you flank your opponent for 1 minute with a successful intimidate check.
Ring of Blinking lets you strike as an invisible target
Ring of Invisibility
Grease makes your target flat-footed if they do not have 5 ranks in balance
Climbing opponents lose dex bonus to AC if they don't have 5 ranks in climb.

EDIT: Ninja'ed!

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-07-16, 05:12 AM
Level 4+ Ranger PC/cohort who's using the PHB2 variant (opponent flatfooted for allies' attacks for 1 round after a successful melee attack). He will be your *best* friend in the world :smalltongue:.

Spiryt
2007-07-16, 05:26 AM
Ranger variant from PHII. Basically counts as flanking, but works even from 300 feet. (Ninjed - but I must add that it must be WEAPON attack - doesn't have to be melee)

Not to mention Feint special attack. Maybe not very good, but Rogue can easily have high Bluff, so can use it if he need.

Low blow (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Low_Blow,all) feat. If you are halfling, works on most enemies.

And, winning initiative, attacking from ambush, snioing is always good way.

The Prince of Cats
2007-07-16, 06:00 AM
Feint in combat. It is a bluff roll which leaves your opponent flat-footed if it succeeds. Bluff is on the rogue's skill-list and, while it does take up a standard action but the bonus applies to your next attack, even if it is on the next round. Improved feint makes it a move-equivalent action, so that is worth looking into...

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-16, 06:31 AM
Trying to make a list of ways to make someone flat-footed and thus vulnerable to sneak attack.

List on?

I would like to point out that losing DEX bonus to AC is not the same as being flat-footed. However, if you are flat-footed you do lose your DEX bonus to AC.

You are only flat-footed at the beginning of combat before you have acted.


Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You canít use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which allows them to avoid losing their Dexterity bonus to AC due to being flat-footed. A flat-footed character canít make attacks of opportunity.



Also, being flanked incurs neither flat-footedness nor loss of dex to AC (You can be sneak attacked though, save for Uncanny Dodge or similar).

With that in mind, carry on. :smallsmile:

Funkyodor
2007-07-16, 06:48 AM
Ring of Blinking gives the opponent cover so RAW he can't be sneak attacked (Unless you have a weapon that can affect someone on the prime material plane from the ethereal plane).
There's a skill trick using tumble in Complete Scoundrel which lets you sneak attack or flank someone with a high tumble check DC.

Thanatos 51-50
2007-07-16, 07:02 AM
Ring of Blinking gives the opponent cover so RAW he can't be sneak attacked (Unless you have a weapon that can affect someone on the prime material plane from the ethereal plane).
There's a skill trick using tumble in Complete Scoundrel which lets you sneak attack or flank someone with a high tumble check DC.

That would be Acrobatic Backstab, all it requires is a succesful tumble check to move through his square.
It should also be noted that using Spot the Weak point, another skill trick which requires a similarly high Spot check allows you to make your next attack against that target as a touch attack, so using both, you'd just have to Sneak Attack against an AC of 10.

Keld Denar
2007-07-16, 07:41 AM
Suprised no one has said it yet, but displacement is a much superior form of blinking that doesn't incure the miss chance on the "you stabbing stuff" end. It does give the miss chance on the "stuff stabbing you" end though. You are also counted as having concelment, so you can sneak attack all day. At 20k, a cloak of minor displacement (20%) is a great buy for a rogue. The greater cloak, although it has 50% miss chance, is only active for a few rounds per day, while the lesser is continuous. Also, because it doesn't say activating the greater cloak is a free action, like boots of haste do, the cloak falls under the default rules of activating a magic item, ie a standard action. So you spend a whole round effectively of your displacement activating the cloak, when you could be gleefully shanking an opponent in the kidneys. It's dumb, but yeah, you do pay more for less.

Happy stabbing!

Irreverent Fool
2007-07-16, 07:52 AM
That would be Acrobatic Backstab, all it requires is a succesful tumble check to move through his square.
It should also be noted that using Spot the Weak point, another skill trick which requires a similarly high Spot check allows you to make your next attack against that target as a touch attack, so using both, you'd just have to Sneak Attack against an AC of 10.

Spot the Weak Point uses a standard action to allow you to make your next attack a touch attack as long as it is made before your next turn. It's almost 'True Strike'. Of course the problem is the same except you can't make Spot the Weak Point into a swift action with a metamagic.

Regardless, you'd have to use it one round and then do the Acrobatic Backstab in the next to gain to advantage you stated. Not bad for an essetially automatic sneak attack, but I feel taking 2 rounds to do it is sub-optimal.

Bosaxon
2007-07-16, 08:21 AM
Raptor School tactical feat from CW

Person_Man
2007-07-16, 08:48 AM
Armor Lock spell from Complete Scoundrel, which is a 1st level Wizard and Bard spell.

If you're playing the superior Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) (Mind Cripple FTW!) you can use Cloud Mind to gain Invisibility. Or you can use Concealing Amorphia (which grants 20% concealment) which allows you to make a Hide check whenever you want, essentially granting you the Hide in Plain Sight ability.

But at mid levels, its pretty much required that the party's arcane spellcaster cast Greater Invisibility on the party Rogue. This is the simplest and usually best method. It also means that you don't have to waste feats or class levels trying to qualify for Sneak Attack with some convoluted method.

Iku Rex
2007-07-16, 08:53 AM
Blink works just fine for sneak attacks. You strike as an invisible creature. The reason you have a miss chance is that you sometimes blink out just when you're about to hit, and that won't interfere with your ability to "see the target well enough to pick a vital spot". Strictly by the RAW, no rule says you can't sneak attack a target if you have a miss chance. (The rule is; "a rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment").

Displacement (spell or item) does not let you ignore your opponent's dexterity modifier to AC, so no sneak attack.

Naga-Darmag
2007-07-16, 09:02 AM
The Invisible Blade from Complete Warrior can at level 5 feint as a free action (that he can take 10 on) when armed with a dagger, kukri or punching dagger.

Leon
2007-07-16, 09:16 AM
Island of Blades - Shadow Stance from ToB

Douglas
2007-07-16, 12:58 PM
Island of Blades - Shadow Stance from ToB
If you read the actual text of the stance rather than the summary, it just makes it easier to flank rather than making flanking automatic. You still need an ally to flank with, he just doesn't need to be on the opposite side.

Person_Man
2007-07-16, 01:38 PM
The Invisible Blade from Complete Warrior can at level 5 feint as a free action (that he can take 10 on) when armed with a dagger, kukri or punching dagger.

They errata'd the Invisible Blade to make it pretty useless. "The invisible blade can use his uncanny feint ability once per round." Thus, Sneak Attack only applies to the first hit of each full attack action. If you have some burning desire to play a sub-optimal dagger wielding Skill Monkey, I would suggest using the writer's original version of the PrC (http://www.wakinglands.com/htm_files/prestige_classes_invisible_blade.htm). Although its still a weak PrC, it offers benefits that the five level version lacks.

bugsysservant
2007-07-16, 01:57 PM
Um... Can't you make a sucessful bluff check to make your enemy flatfooted in the next round? I thinks its called feinting, but right now I'm too lazy to look it up.

Draz74
2007-07-16, 02:03 PM
Um... Can't you make a sucessful bluff check to make your enemy flatfooted in the next round? I thinks its called feinting, but right now I'm too lazy to look it up.

Feinting makes them lose their Dodge bonus to AC, but does not make them flat-footed.

Only "hasn't taken an action yet in this encounter" actually makes people flat-footed, except for effects (such as Tome of Battle maneuvers) that actually say they treat the target as flat-footed.

mikeejimbo
2007-07-16, 02:08 PM
Feinting makes them lose their Dodge bonus to AC, but does not make them flat-footed.

Only "hasn't taken an action yet in this encounter" actually makes people flat-footed, except for effects (such as Tome of Battle maneuvers) that actually say they treat the target as flat-footed.

But you can still sneak-attack when they lose their Dex bonus to AC, right?

bugsysservant
2007-07-16, 02:21 PM
Feinting makes them lose their Dodge bonus to AC, but does not make them flat-footed.

Only "hasn't taken an action yet in this encounter" actually makes people flat-footed, except for effects (such as Tome of Battle maneuvers) that actually say they treat the target as flat-footed.

Looked it up. Straight out of the PHB- "If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it."

So, he does lose his Dex. bonus, which makes him flat footed, no?

Person_Man
2007-07-16, 02:34 PM
Here is the rule on how to Feint (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#feint).

As a STANDARD action, you can make a Bluff check opposed by your enemy's Sense Motive + BAB. If you succeed, then "the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)." Which makes him qualify for Sneak Attack.

If you're stupid enough to waste a feat on Improved Feint, then its a Move action. Either way, your Sneak Attack only applies to one attack. It's a very inefficient way to kill your enemy, since virtually every Sneak Attack build will have multiple attacks per round.

MeklorIlavator
2007-07-16, 02:54 PM
Blink works just fine for sneak attacks. You strike as an invisible creature. The reason you have a miss chance is that you sometimes blink out just when you're about to hit, and that won't interfere with your ability to "see the target well enough to pick a vital spot". Strictly by the RAW, no rule says you can't sneak attack a target if you have a miss chance. (The rule is; "a rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment").


And Greater Blink works even better. It only blinks when the opponent would be attacking you, so your attacks are done normally. Its in the complete arcane, by the way.

Zaeron
2007-07-16, 04:15 PM
Looked it up. Straight out of the PHB- "If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it."

So, he does lose his Dex. bonus, which makes him flat footed, no?

You're getting confused.

Being flat footed is a very specific state that only a limited number of spells and effects (mostly, as people have said, from the ToB) can force you into. And I'm not sure if even those abilities simply say 'treat the target AS flat footed for this attack', or actually make the target flat footed. As far as I know, under core rules, the only way to be flat footed is to have not acted yet during combat.

However, since 'being flat footed' isn't the reqiurement for sneaking attacking someone, it doesn't matter much. He loses his dex bonus to AC, but he is not flat footed. If he became flat footed, he would stay flat footed until his next action. Since he is simply losing his dexterity bonus to one of your attacks, he is not flat footed.

Since he's lost his dex bonus to AC against that attack, it is a sneak attack, even though he isn't flat footed.

That help any? :smallsmile:

AslanCross
2007-07-16, 04:28 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#flatFooted

Yep, Zaeron's correct. Although being flat-footed and being denied a DEX AC bonus have pretty much the same effect on one's AC (you lose DEX and dodge bonus), they're technically different conditions. Both situations allow an opponent to make a sneak attack, regardless.

bugsysservant
2007-07-16, 04:38 PM
You're getting confused.

Being flat footed is a very specific state that only a limited number of spells and effects (mostly, as people have said, from the ToB) can force you into. And I'm not sure if even those abilities simply say 'treat the target AS flat footed for this attack', or actually make the target flat footed. As far as I know, under core rules, the only way to be flat footed is to have not acted yet during combat.

However, since 'being flat footed' isn't the reqiurement for sneaking attacking someone, it doesn't matter much. He loses his dex bonus to AC, but he is not flat footed. If he became flat footed, he would stay flat footed until his next action. Since he is simply losing his dexterity bonus to one of your attacks, he is not flat footed.

Since he's lost his dex bonus to AC against that attack, it is a sneak attack, even though he isn't flat footed.

That help any? :smallsmile:

I had thought that the main point of the article was to determine when a character was effectively flatfooted, but I appreciate the correction. Nonetheless, the condiitons are very similar, and will generally be treated the same (although I am unsure if a character can make AoO if he has lost his Dex. bonus.)

Iku Rex
2007-07-16, 04:42 PM
As far as I know, under core rules, the only way to be flat footed is to have not acted yet during combat.It's also used in the 3.5 PH to refer to balancing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/balance.htm) and climbing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#favorableandUnfavorableConditi ons) (mentioned in table) characters.

(It could be a 3.0->3.5 mistake by someone who didn't understand the terminology.)

SolkaTruesilver
2007-07-16, 04:58 PM
Someone grappled loose their dex bonus to AC.

Or so V said in one of the Dragon Magasine. The giant crab creature dropped Roy on the spot..

Stormcrow
2007-07-17, 01:04 AM
Further. (looking to play a crossbow sniper) if the target is flanked by two of my allies can I sneak attack them? or do I need to be one of the threatening parties?

How should I best use my Crossbow Snipery?

Merlin the Tuna
2007-07-17, 01:07 AM
It's also used in the 3.5 PH to refer to balancing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/balance.htm) and climbing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#favorableandUnfavorableConditi ons) (mentioned in table) characters.

(It could be a 3.0->3.5 mistake by someone who didn't understand the terminology.)I don't think it's a mistake. One of the implications of Flatfootedness is the inability to make attacks of opportunity, which certainly fits with balancing and climbing.

AslanCross
2007-07-17, 01:12 AM
Further. (looking to play a crossbow sniper) if the target is flanked by two of my allies can I sneak attack them? or do I need to be one of the threatening parties?

How should I best use my Crossbow Snipery?


The rogueís attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

The RAW. You actually have to be one of the flankers in question when sneaking. From what I can tell you can only snipe if you're unseen (or if the target is denied his dex bonus somehow). Also, won't this be considered shooting into melee? (unless you have the Precise Shot feat of course)

Donsic
2007-07-17, 01:21 AM
Everyone is flat footed before their first turn... I noticed people saying that being first is one way... I was just clarifying the reason why.

also going swift invisiblity (assassin spell DMG)

Grrosgor
2007-07-17, 08:15 PM
There aren't too many ways to make an opponent flat footed but there are plenty of ways to make them lose their Dexterity bonus to AC. I'm no expert but here's a brief list.

You can sneak attack when:
1) You are invisible (unless your opponent can see or sense you)
2) You are flanking
3) You successfully Feint
4) The opponent is blinded
5) The opponent is helpless or paralysed
6) The opponent is grappling
7) The opponent is balancing (unless they have 5+ ranks in balance)
8) The opponent is climbing
9) The opponent is cowering
10) The opponent is stunned

11) You have concealment

No. 11 people have mentioned but I haven't found where it says in the rules you can sneak attack when concealed (can anyone point me in the right direction there?)

So sneak attack is heavily influenced by circumstances and a good rogue should be aware of what circumstances they can apply their sneak attack.

However, there are ways you can create the situation, mainly through spells though.

The classic is Grease, where everyone has to make a balance check to move. Awesome if you have a ranged weapon or even better can cast RTA spells. I'm playing with a Rogue/Sorcerer at the moment who I'm trying to get to R7/S4 with the Practiced Spellcaster Feat he will be able to cast Grease then Scorching Ray for a total of 16d6 damage. Not too bad for a rogue.

I currently do the same with 0 level rays so 1d3 + 4d6 sneak attack damage. May not be as optimal as going full Rogue or using some PrCs but it does make you a little more flexible and useful.

I'm also running around with a +1 Holy Long spear so I like to cast Grease, stand 10 feet away from the enemy and as they stand up from prone AoO sneak attack (they have to retest their balance check or fall when taking damage) and if they close with me another AoO, in which they might fall again.

It very much depends on the availability of magic items in your campaign too. I'm currently in the Worlds Largest Dungeon and can't get out so I'm stuck using whatever I find.

Other useful spells are Glitterdust to blind, Cause Fear get opponents to cower, Sound Burst for the stun, Hold Person for paralysis. It's best if you can get the other party casters to use these types of spells.

Your best friend can also be the Monk if you can convince him to use his stunning Fist or better still grapple opponents.

Anyway, just some of the ideas I'm playing with.

I'd love to hear others.

Cheers
Grrosgor

Mr. Moogle
2007-07-17, 08:18 PM
I always used the grease one and the invisibility one and they worked well enough.