Designing a Dragon

[kuhaica]

So, fairly experienced Dm but this is one thing which I've never done. Normally i use a few base states, a few basic feats and move on with my life as i adjust when needed to re-balance through the fight if the dragon is to weak or to strong. However, I've never actually truly designed a dragon using all the rules available in various books. I've begun to attempt to do so, but I'm fairly certain that I'm doing something wrong, or is just that dragons are more powerful then I give them credit for.

So, I'm working from Monster Manuals I-III as well as the Dragonnomicon and Races of the Dragon. Following the rules in the Dragonnomicon I've started off with the base stats for a Great Wyrm Red Dragon and a Wyrmling to figure out there modifier for there ability mods before doing some rolls for it. And I'm fairly certain there Ability Mod for a Great Wyrm are as follows


28 Str
16 Con
16 Wis
16 Cha
16 Int


Which for a Great Wyrm is pretty good, I then added those to my rolls. Now, pretty sure I did this right but where i begin to have problems is the amount of feats which the Dragon has, and the skill points involved. So 42 HD is 14 +1 feats but I'm unsure if dragons act the same as with standard creatures as one rule book says a feat every 4HD for a dragon (I may have read this elsewhere and got confused) while I know standard rules are 3HD for every feat. Meanwhile I'm at a lost for calculating the Skill points here, I get insane numbers ranging 300+ which just seem insane but at the same time plausible.


So, this is a two part question. One, how do i correctly create a red dragon, and Two. How do I make said dragon as difficult as possible without meta-maxing to much. Any help is appreciated.

[John Longarrow]

Skill points sound right. I'd count up the number of feats the dragon you want to change has and go from there.

With skill points, remember that all of the dragons stats change as it ages, so it should have less total that just HD x (6+int). With 42HD its max ranks are going to be 45.

Easiest way to adjust stats is by assuming even numbers as 10 and odd 11. Figure out what the "Base stats" area and add the difference. Course as DM you can give them what ever stats you really think they need.

Dragons are supposed to be really powerful. D12 HD, full bab, good skills, good saves. Everything you'd ever want, then add spell casting on top! Most of the customization tends to be in spell selection though.

[the_david]

The 1 feat/4 levels is a 3.0 thing. In 3.5 all monsters get one feat at level 1 and 1 at every third level. (1, 3, 6, etc.)

[kuhaica]

Skill points sound right. I'd count up the number of feats the dragon you want to change has and go from there.

With skill points, remember that all of the dragons stats change as it ages, so it should have less total that just HD x (6+int). With 42HD its max ranks are going to be 45.

Easiest way to adjust stats is by assuming even numbers as 10 and odd 11. Figure out what the "Base stats" area and add the difference. Course as DM you can give them what ever stats you really think they need.

Dragons are supposed to be really powerful. D12 HD, full bab, good skills, good saves. Everything you'd ever want, then add spell casting on top! Most of the customization tends to be in spell selection though.

Glad i'm close with the skill points, I was worried I was doing something wrong, anyways in regards to the Base stats I'm fairly sure I got it right, the stats I rolled up are nearly on par with that of the standard, but I have far
more HP due to better rolls.

Anyways, In regards to spells one thing I am unsure about due to this being a Red dragon, and a Dragon in general, Do I use standard rules for spells known? Or is there a special rule set. As well, Is i possible to use both Cleric and standard Spells due to the fact that Red Dragons are capable of using cleric spells. Or must i do one or the other?

Lastly, how would you go about giving class levels to a full grown dragon? Just the same as everything else and I'm over thinking it?


Also, thanks for answering the last thing. It helped.



The 1 feat/4 levels is a 3.0 thing. In 3.5 all monsters get one feat at level 1 and 1 at every third level. (1, 3, 6, etc.)

Thanks for clearing that up

[John Longarrow]

They learn spells as a sorcerer. Each spell can be off either the wizard/sorcerer list or the cleric. They are not limited to one OR the other, they can choose from both.

If you add class levels, figure out WHEN then get them. If its a young dragon who dips into class X, their max ranks in skills are based off of their racial HD WHEN they take the level + class level.

Say the dragon has 15 racial HD when it dips into Bard. It can raise bard class skills up to 19 ranks (15 racial + 1 bard +3). This is the only part that dragons have that gets really confusing to some people. There are feats they can't take early on that they can take later after they get more racial HD from age.

If you add sorcerer levels I'd have the levels stack with their racial ability. I'd also let them have the same choices for spells because... well... DRAGON.

Abjurant champion on a dragon gets pretty sick. Same with Initiate of the seven fold veil.

[DarkSoul]

Making a dragon tougher is already min-maxing, so you're out of luck there. A great wyrm red is over a thousand years old, so has likely seen more than its share of assassination attempts. Feel free to tailor its defenses to the attackers, because "You pathetic humans never learn. Your simple magical tricks didn't work against me during the Four Nights of Fire I visited upon you two centuries past, and they don't work now."

As John Longarrow mentioned, ability scores for monsters without class levels all start at 10 or 11. For a red dragon, you can safely assume its base stats are Str 11, Dex 10, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10, which would give a great red wyrm racial modifiers of +34 Str, +20 Con, +16 Int, +16 Wis, +16 Cha. Instead of rolling you could just use a modified elite array for stats: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 10. This eliminates the 8 and still gives you a good spread to work with.

For skills, just base it on the dragon's Intelligence at great wyrm. It says on MM1 pg. 69 that dragons get skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier) x (HD + 3), so they don't worry about incremental increases in Intelligence. The standard great red wyrm should have (6 + 8) x (40 + 3) = 602 skill points, with Appraise, Bluff, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (any), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, and Use Magic Device being class skills (1 point/rank) with a maximum of 43 ranks per skill.

For feats, the standard is 1 feat/3HD, plus 1 at first level. For a 40 HD great red wyrm, this is 14 feats total. Feats are where you can really start to toughen up a dragon, because fully half of the great red's feats can be epic if you want them to be. Feats are also where you're really going to start giving a custom dragon its uniqueness. Give some thought to what the dragon is known for. Does its breath weapon melt nearly anything it touches and stick like burning tar? Give it metabreath feats like maximize breath, clinging breath, and lingering breath. Is it a monster in combat, preferring to get "up close and personal" with its foes? Go down the improved rapidstrike chain, or maybe get Devastating Critical from the Epic Level Handbook (on a successful critical hit, the great red wyrm's target makes a DC 42 Fortitude save or dies).

A great red wyrm is a 19th-level sorcerer with access to the entire cleric base spell list, along with the spells from the Chaos, Evil, and Fire domains as arcane spells in addition to the entire sorcerer spell list. This means things like heal and miracle are available to it. I think every dragon able to cast it should know heal (or mass heal), personally. As a 19th-level caster, they also qualify for Epic Spellcasting and Improved Spell Capacity. Improved Metamagic is normally out of their reach, but Multispell is available. Also, Scintillating Scales from the Spell Compendium is a must-have for a dragon.

So what it comes down to is: who's fighting against this dragon, how does the dragon fight, and do you want to consider adding anything like prestige classes or templates?

[Ruethgar]

It should be noted that you can also trade out chunks of health for more Spells/day as per dragon pacts and also trade out a Spell Known for a Draconic Aura with a bonus of half the spell level.

And because they are sorcerer based, there is always that unusual spells through study or special knowledge bit that should let something as old as a great wyrm have any spell known from any list(within reason, would still veto Trapsmith for example but if it's a fire purifies and brings new life kind of dragon the druid list isn't out of the question).

You can also add one of the psychoses, Spell Hoarding is the most famous, but Ravening is always fun on a raiding destroyer sort, consuming entire herds of cattle, devouring man, mer and beast alike.

Improved Toughness is actually better than Epic Toughness with that much HD and would cover a dragon pact or two depending on strength, with versatile caster that can be quite good.

The pacts also mean you have sorcerers that have a vested interest in your survival.

[kuhaica]

They learn spells as a sorcerer. Each spell can be off either the wizard/sorcerer list or the cleric. They are not limited to one OR the other, they can choose from both.

If you add class levels, figure out WHEN then get them. If its a young dragon who dips into class X, their max ranks in skills are based off of their racial HD WHEN they take the level + class level.

Say the dragon has 15 racial HD when it dips into Bard. It can raise bard class skills up to 19 ranks (15 racial + 1 bard +3). This is the only part that dragons have that gets really confusing to some people. There are feats they can't take early on that they can take later after they get more racial HD from age.

If you add sorcerer levels I'd have the levels stack with their racial ability. I'd also let them have the same choices for spells because... well... DRAGON.

Abjurant champion on a dragon gets pretty sick. Same with Initiate of the seven fold veil.

Wonderful! This clears up a lot of my concerns and questions about this.


Making a dragon tougher is already min-maxing, so you're out of luck there. A great wyrm red is over a thousand years old, so has likely seen more than its share of assassination attempts. Feel free to tailor its defenses to the attackers, because "You pathetic humans never learn. Your simple magical tricks didn't work against me during the Four Nights of Fire I visited upon you two centuries past, and they don't work now."

As John Longarrow mentioned, ability scores for monsters without class levels all start at 10 or 11. For a red dragon, you can safely assume its base stats are Str 11, Dex 10, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10, which would give a great red wyrm racial modifiers of +34 Str, +20 Con, +16 Int, +16 Wis, +16 Cha. Instead of rolling you could just use a modified elite array for stats: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 10. This eliminates the 8 and still gives you a good spread to work with.

For skills, just base it on the dragon's Intelligence at great wyrm. It says on MM1 pg. 69 that dragons get skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier) x (HD + 3), so they don't worry about incremental increases in Intelligence. The standard great red wyrm should have (6 + 8) x (40 + 3) = 602 skill points, with Appraise, Bluff, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (any), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, and Use Magic Device being class skills (1 point/rank) with a maximum of 43 ranks per skill.

For feats, the standard is 1 feat/3HD, plus 1 at first level. For a 40 HD great red wyrm, this is 14 feats total. Feats are where you can really start to toughen up a dragon, because fully half of the great red's feats can be epic if you want them to be. Feats are also where you're really going to start giving a custom dragon its uniqueness. Give some thought to what the dragon is known for. Does its breath weapon melt nearly anything it touches and stick like burning tar? Give it metabreath feats like maximize breath, clinging breath, and lingering breath. Is it a monster in combat, preferring to get "up close and personal" with its foes? Go down the improved rapidstrike chain, or maybe get Devastating Critical from the Epic Level Handbook (on a successful critical hit, the great red wyrm's target makes a DC 42 Fortitude save or dies).

A great red wyrm is a 19th-level sorcerer with access to the entire cleric base spell list, along with the spells from the Chaos, Evil, and Fire domains as arcane spells in addition to the entire sorcerer spell list. This means things like heal and miracle are available to it. I think every dragon able to cast it should know heal (or mass heal), personally. As a 19th-level caster, they also qualify for Epic Spellcasting and Improved Spell Capacity. Improved Metamagic is normally out of their reach, but Multispell is available. Also, Scintillating Scales from the Spell Compendium is a must-have for a dragon.

So what it comes down to is: who's fighting against this dragon, how does the dragon fight, and do you want to consider adding anything like prestige classes or templates?

Thanks, alot to consider and many helpful suggestions.

[Shalist]

For skills, just base it on the dragon's Intelligence at great wyrm. It says on MM1 pg. 69 that dragons get skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier) x (HD + 3), so they don't worry about incremental increases in Intelligence.

Agreed, and if there's any doubt:


When a dragon’s Intelligence score increases due to aging, it gains additional skill points for its new Intelligence score retroactively

edit: While we're at it:


Dragons have a +2 competence bonus to the Appraise checks (or Intelligence checks made to appraise an item)

[John Longarrow]

Crap.. Now there's another change I've got to keep track of... WHY CAN'T THEY JUST PUT IT IN THE MM!! :smallyuk:

[Esprit15]

If they're a melee beast, Knowledge Devotion gets silly with all of their attacks, plus their knowledge skills eventually reaching the point where it doesn't even have to roll to reach a +5 bonus.

[kuhaica]

Thanks to everyone who answered, it helped to clear up multiple concerns that I had.

[kuhaica]

Now, a few more questions regarding building of the dragon.

In the Monster Manual II there is the Creature of Legend Template, would it be possible to apply this to the dragon as well? Going over the rules, it appears to not do much for the dragon over then giving it a few minor traits which can greatly improve the dragon. And the fluff for the template does coincide with the lore for this dragon.

Besides the template, I would like to confirm that I've calculated the senses correctly. As its the base sight multiplied by the size class according to how the vision rules work. So for the Great Wyrm that is x5 due to it being colossal.


Standard Sight 1000ft (100x2 x5) Dragons have double the vision of a standard creature already added on, but I'd assume as they grow the sight does still increase. And apparently they can see up to 200 feet in fine detail.
Low Light and Dark Vision 500ft (100x5)
Blind Vision/Sight 150ft (30x5)




Now, for several feats that I've so far chosen, I'm curious if this would be at all good for the dragon.

Draconic Knowledge - Acts like bardic knowledge for checks on items. locations or events but doesn't give the full picture but instead hints. Since the dragon isn't meant to act as a creature that shows up from time to time, but instead is almost always present. I figured this may be useful. But is it really?

Suppress Weakness and Overcome Weakness - With Overcome Weakness, the greater of the two feats the Dragons opposite energy no longer deals extra damage. Is it better to just put 2 feats of Cold Resistance instead for 20 DR? Or is this better?

Improved Multi Attack - Secondary Attacks have no penalty. I'm unsure if I'm reading this right, as Multi Attack is worded oddly. And looking around it appeared to bring up several debates on what it does.

Prehensile Tail - Tail becomes usable as an off hand, I just find i amusing to use the tail to wield weapons and be usable to grapple. But if this is just to impractical, please let me know.

Rapid Breath - Reduces time to use breath weapon again, reduces time by 1. I found this while looking about online, but I'm unsure if this is a real feat or if this is the wrong description.

Recover Breath - Reduces time to use breath weapon again, reduces time by 1. I know this one is proper, reading it the book right now.

Quicken Spell - Can cast a single spell as a bonus action

Reach Spell - Can cast touch spells up to 30ft away. Since playing a cleric, I've learned how powerful this is. Healing people from behind trees or casting various other touch spells at a distance is just powerful. But is it worth it for a dragon?


So, these are some of the feats I'm unsure of, things like great cleave, snatch and fly by attack I think are must have for a great wyrm, but these I'm unsure of.

[DarkSoul]

Quicken Spell is actually useless for a spontaneous caster, because applying metamagic feats to a spontaneous spell makes it a full-round action to cast. The Arcane Preparation feat from Complete Arcane would allow you to use it, though. Another route would be to have Arcane Spellsurge, from Dragon Magic, as a known spell. Arcane Preparation, Quicken Spell, and Multispell would all be useful, especially if you also have Arcane Spellsurge, as Multispell would allow you to cast two spells per round with Spellsurge active. Rapid Breath is from Savage Species, which is a 3.0 book so you could take both Rapid and Recover Breath if you wanted to. Overall the feats you have listed are interesting choices.

As for the template, unfortunately it can't be applied to something with the dragon type. That being said, if it makes sense for the dragon then go ahead. You're the DM.

Also, where did you find that about multiplying vision ranges?

[kuhaica]

Quicken Spell is actually useless for a spontaneous caster, because applying metamagic feats to a spontaneous spell makes it a full-round action to cast. The Arcane Preparation feat from Complete Arcane would allow you to use it, though. Another route would be to have Arcane Spellsurge, from Dragon Magic, as a known spell. Arcane Preparation, Quicken Spell, and Multispell would all be useful, especially if you also have Arcane Spellsurge, as Multispell would allow you to cast two spells per round with Spellsurge active. Rapid Breath is from Savage Species, which is a 3.0 book so you could take both Rapid and Recover Breath if you wanted to. Overall the feats you have listed are interesting choices.

As for the template, unfortunately it can't be applied to something with the dragon type. That being said, if it makes sense for the dragon then go ahead. You're the DM.

Also, where did you find that about multiplying vision ranges?

Didn't know about that mechanic with quicken spell, thanks for informing me. And for the vision, it was a quote i found while looking around. And from what I found it may be a vairent rule as another mechanic i found is vision distance is determined by 'Spot' but the rule states that a creatures range increases by its size class past medium, unless otherwise stated. I do also remember reading it in one of my books but can't find where i found it.

[Eldariel]

Quicken Spell can be made use of via. Rapid Metamagic-feat in Complete Mage. It's definitely a feat Dragons should have. I also recommend having it pick Persistent Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#persistentSpell) (Complete Arcane), which allows it to have those various low level buffs up all day without having to worry about it. Things like Scintillating Scales [Spell Compendium], Blood Wind [Spell Compendium], Resist Energy, Shield, Divine Favor, etc. It can even combine the feat with the prerequisite Extend Spell which allows for 48 hour buffs if both are applied; thus saving its slots every other day. It may be worthwhile to have it pick up Practiced Spellcaster too to make its buffs a bit harder to dispel and ensure access to +5 versions of Magic Vestment/Greater Magic Fang if it uses those spells.

Other feats of interest are particularly the breath weapon feats from Draconomicon and Races of the Dragon. Clinging Breath + Lingering Breath can do a world of hurt particularly since there's no cap with how many times both can be applied, and they can always be combined with e.g. Entangling Exhalation [Races of the Dragon]. Quicken Breath makes breathing a free action freeing up the swift and the full-round actions for spellcasting/combat. The #1 rule with high level casters is that they always have more things to do than they have actions for so it's generally worth it to have whatever resources can be used for all-day benefits active. Of course, the actual matter of spell selection for a 19th level Sorcerer-with-Cleric-access is its own ballpark; lots of amazing options (just don't bother with damage spells or the like). Metabreath Spells, Immediate Action defenses, Protection Spells, Control Spells, Utility spells (Plane Shift, Teleport, Contact Other Plane, the usual) & martial prowess spells should probably be the primary focus.

One big thing is also treasure. Dragons have lots of treasure and out of it, there's a lot they can use. Magic items to enhance their casting, protect them from various things, Contingent spells on their person (hell, you can give the Dragon herself Craft Contingent Spell [Complete Arcane], if that option is game), etc.

[TiaC]

Energy Immunity (Cold) is a good buff to have. Practiced Spellcaster is a good idea to raise CL. Look for items to protect against dispelling, because if your dragon loses its buffs, it's going to die.

[John Longarrow]

End of the day, what is your role for this dragon? It doesn't seem to be just "Big Boss to fight the party".

[kuhaica]

Quicken Spell can be made use of via. Rapid Metamagic-feat in Complete Mage. It's definitely a feat Dragons should have. I also recommend (Complete Arcane), which allows it to have those various low level buffs up all day without having to worry about it. Things like Scintillating Scales [Spell Compendium], Blood Wind [Spell Compendium], Resist Energy, Shield, Divine Favor, etc. It can even combine the feat with the prerequisite Extend Spell which allows for 48 hour buffs if both are applied; thus saving its slots every other day. It may be worthwhile to have it pick up Practiced Spellcaster too to make its buffs a bit harder to dispel and ensure access to +5 versions of Magic Vestment/Greater Magic Fang if it uses those spells.

Other feats of interest are particularly the breath weapon feats from Draconomicon and Races of the Dragon. Clinging Breath + Lingering Breath can do a world of hurt particularly since there's no cap with how many times both can be applied, and they can always be combined with e.g. Entangling Exhalation [Races of the Dragon]. Quicken Breath makes breathing a free action freeing up the swift and the full-round actions for spellcasting/combat. The #1 rule with high level casters is that they always have more things to do than they have actions for so it's generally worth it to have whatever resources can be used for all-day benefits active. Of course, the actual matter of spell selection for a 19th level Sorcerer-with-Cleric-access is its own ballpark; lots of amazing options (just don't bother with damage spells or the like). Metabreath Spells, Immediate Action defenses, Protection Spells, Control Spells, Utility spells (Plane Shift, Teleport, Contact Other Plane, the usual) & martial prowess spells should probably be the primary focus.

One big thing is also treasure. Dragons have lots of treasure and out of it, there's a lot they can use. Magic items to enhance their casting, protect them from various things, Contingent spells on their person (hell, you can give the Dragon herself Craft Contingent Spell [Complete Arcane], if that option is game), etc.

I'll keep that all on mind. Thanks a ton.


Energy Immunity (Cold) is a good buff to have. Practiced Spellcaster is a good idea to raise CL. Look for items to protect against dispelling, because if your dragon loses its buffs, it's going to die.

So you think I should got for Cold Resistance? Or is there something that actually gives me Immunity that I over looked?

[kuhaica]

End of the day, what is your role for this dragon? It doesn't seem to be just "Big Boss to fight the party".

Basically. I'm playing the dragon as a PC in a game where the DM wanted to really shock the party at the end. DM wanted me to be very powerful and gave me the "go wild but not to wild" speech and now I'm trying to create said dragon to make the final encounter interesting.

So I need to think about certain things to make th3 dragon more then just a big bad boss at the end. But instead something which is capable of campaigning around.

I've already figured out how I would due certain things of making some skills and feats working with the ploy morphed shape I've taken. Which works fairly well with what I plan to make it appear I level up with the rest of the party.

But basically. I need to be versatile and fairly adaptable. And capable of blinding in better. And unfortunately I'm not very well versed in alot of the feats out there that relate to this. And so I'm doing the best I can.

Hence why I asked here.

[TiaC]

So you think I should got for Cold Resistance? Or is there something that actually gives me Immunity that I over looked?

There is a spell called Energy Immunity. It's a 7th level spell for sorcerers, 6th for Clerics, that gives you immunity to an energy type for 24 hours. It's in Complete Arcane, Draconomicon and the Spell Compendium. Your players are likely to try using cold damage, so it would probably be smart enough to cover that weakness.

[kuhaica]

There is a spell called Energy Immunity. It's a 7th level spell for sorcerers, 6th for Clerics, that gives you immunity to an energy type for 24 hours. It's in Complete Arcane, Draconomicon and the Spell Compendium. Your players are likely to try using cold damage, so it would probably be smart enough to cover that weakness.

Ah alright. Knew about that one but I thought there was a feat for it. But I guess I could make that a permanent spell.

[TiaC]

Ah alright. Knew about that one but I thought there was a feat for it. But I guess I could make that a permanent spell.

You don't need permanency, it lasts all day.

[DarkSoul]

Also consider the Tenacious Magic epic feat. If there's a crucial magical effect (like energy immunity) you want to keep, then having it dispelled is pretty much a worst-case scenario. With tenacious magic it's only deactivated for 1d4 rounds, like a magical item.

[John Longarrow]

Basically. I'm playing the dragon as a PC in a game where the DM wanted to really shock the party at the end. DM wanted me to be very powerful and gave me the "go wild but not to wild" speech and now I'm trying to create said dragon to make the final encounter interesting.

So I need to think about certain things to make th3 dragon more then just a big bad boss at the end. But instead something which is capable of campaigning around.

I've already figured out how I would due certain things of making some skills and feats working with the ploy morphed shape I've taken. Which works fairly well with what I plan to make it appear I level up with the rest of the party.

But basically. I need to be versatile and fairly adaptable. And capable of blinding in better. And unfortunately I'm not very well versed in alot of the feats out there that relate to this. And so I'm doing the best I can.

Hence why I asked here.

If possible go for a dragon with Alternate Form. Makes it a LOT easier to blend in if you can just turn into an X rather than burning spells to do it.

[Draconium]

If possible go for a dragon with Alternate Form. Makes it a LOT easier to blend in if you can just turn into an X rather than burning spells to do it.

Dragons of Eberron has a feat that gives a dragon Alternate Form, with the prerequisite of having a sorcerer caster level of 5th or higher. So technically, any dragon with sorcerer casting can have Alternate Form.

[Eldariel]

Dragons of Eberron has a feat that gives a dragon Alternate Form, with the prerequisite of having a sorcerer caster level of 5th or higher. So technically, any dragon with sorcerer casting can have Alternate Form.

That said, for a Great Wyrm with level 19 spellcasting, he'll probably know Polymorph Any Object at the very least (of course, other Polymorph effects are also possible) and that already allows for permanent Alternate Form of basically any kind so chances are it has better feats to pick than this one.

[Vaz]

Depends what else you'd use for the feat, and the level of CharOp you were looking for.

A Persisted Strength of the True Form is a 7th level spell rather than 8th. Sure, that is a few feats deep, but if you have Metamagic Reduction, even better.

[Eldariel]

Depends what else you'd use for the feat, and the level of CharOp you were looking for.

A Persisted Strength of the True Form is a 7th level spell rather than 8th. Sure, that is a few feats deep, but if you have Metamagic Reduction, even better.

Aye, that combines great with e.g. Polymorph Any Object to add an extremely high base Dex to the whole deal. Like turn into a Kelvezu (requires a type-acquiring intermediate spell, not a real problem), cast Strength of the True Form and suddenly you're looking at base stats of 45/31/31 instead of 45/10/31 giving you a solid +21 Dex. Sadly you can't use Breath Weapon while in an alternate form so it's generally still a downgrade particularly since it prohibits the use of many powerful feats and metabreath spells.

[Draconium]

That said, for a Great Wyrm with level 19 spellcasting, he'll probably know Polymorph Any Object at the very least (of course, other Polymorph effects are also possible) and that already allows for permanent Alternate Form of basically any kind so chances are it has better feats to pick than this one.

... My last post was specifically referring to the previous poster, in regards to gaining Alternate Form without burning spell slots. And it's not exactly the worst feat for a dragon anyways. I'm not saying that you can't get more powerful with Polymorph effects - they're far stronger - but if you're just using it for a disguise, there's no real advantage to spending one of your three precious 8th-level spells known on it, rather than one of your 14 (24 with Wyrm of War) feats.

[Eldariel]

... My last post was specifically referring to the previous poster, in regards to gaining Alternate Form without burning spell slots. And it's not exactly the worst feat for a dragon anyways. I'm not saying that you can't get more powerful with Polymorph effects - they're far stronger - but if you're just using it for a disguise, there's no real advantage to spending one of your three precious 8th-level spells known on it, rather than one of your 14 (24 with Wyrm of War) feats.

Polymorph Any Object is way too useful not to know in general - there's no cost to using it for this purpose. The fact that it can be cast on self is just the icing on the cake. It can be used to create your lair, build cities, create creatures, manipulate matter, open pathways, empower allies, disable enemies, produce basically anything, and it's one of the two good Fort save-or-X effects that affects objects meaning it overcomes a number of immunities annoying creatures might otherwise have. In short, a Dragon capable of casting the spell should have PAO anyways: it alone saves like 6 other spells known (save-or-die + shape terrain + X creations + fabricate + polymorph + various type-based transmutations) plus performs some unreplicable feats. Far as Sorcerer's spell selection criteria goes (broad, versatile spells applicable in a variety of situations) it's very near the top (perhaps behind Gate and Shapechange) and certainly the top level 8 spell.

[kuhaica]

Lots of great suggestion. Thanks a ton to all of you who've pitched In, you've given me alot to think about for the next little while.

[kuhaica]

Oh, another question that I have. Are the increase to the ability scores already included in the age? Or is that just not included cause dragon? Also, would I treat the alter shape where as soon as the HP for that being is drained i turn into my true form?

I'm fairly certain that how it works but i want to make sure, as I'm the one doing all of this and I need to prove to the DM that what I'm doing is supported by the rules.

[John Longarrow]

Each age category has the "Age" modifiers in it. Yep, dragons are one of the only beings that have their STR go UP as they age.

[kuhaica]

Each age category has the "Age" modifiers in it. Yep, dragons are one of the only beings that have their STR go UP as they age.

Alright, just wanted to make sure I understood. But what about the second question?