Twin dungeons?

[heavyfuel]

First things first. If you´re on my table, get out. You know who you are :smallsmile:

So I had this idea for a dungeon or, to put in better terms, two dungeons. The main idea is that the actions you take in one dungeon affect the other dungeon. This would make them easier/harder to traverse. Like, you can have the option to flood a room, but this empties a different room in the other dungeon. Things like that.

The players have easy access to teleportation between the two.

Have you guys ever played/built/seen anything like this?

The closest thing I can think of are the Babi/Venus Lighthouse in the first Golden Sun game. Still, puzzle videogames don´t normally translate well into tabletop.

Any suggestions or references would be much appreciated.

[John Longarrow]

First question would be "Why would actions in one dungeon affect another?"

If you are talking about different parts of the same dungeon I can see some things having an impact. Different locations though make it much less likely, at least in the minds of players.

[Stealth Marmot]

This almost sounds like a video game, one of the ones where you switch between a "light world" and a "Dark World" like in Legend of Zelda games. I could see someone basing a puzzle room or part of a dungeon on such a thing, but I wouldn't do TOO much with it or your players might get a little bored or irritated or worse...clever.

[heavyfuel]

First question would be "Why would actions in one dungeon affect another?"

If you are talking about different parts of the same dungeon I can see some things having an impact. Different locations though make it much less likely, at least in the minds of players.

According to the world history, both of these places were built simultaneously because of reasons (the campaign has been going on for over 2 years, I really dont feel like explaining everything in a post)

I just though that, given these circumstances, it would be pretty cool if they had some connections between them. Yknow, so that the PCs dont have to go through just another dungeon I wanted to make these 2 different.

[OldTrees1]

I have not seen/built something like that but I have though about it. You would want some reason the two dungeons are linked. If they are close geographically (say 2 dungeons intertwined like a pair of snakes) then you could have a direct mechanical connection. Otherwise you might want to use magical(portal magic, sympathetic magic, ...) connections.

The most important thing about creating puzzles in RPGs is that you should strive to have at least 2-3 answers to each puzzle and accept other valid solutions to bypass/overcome those obstacles.

These room effects can be of the same kind or of a differing kind.
Effects of the same kind can be symmetric or mirrored.

Examples:
Flood one room rotates the other (different kind)
Flood one room drains the other (same kind, mirrored effect)
Rotate one room rotates the other the same direction (same kind, symmetric effect)

Brainstorm:
Gears(Rotating a part of a room, a room itself, or even moving rooms by rotating larger areas)
Fluids(Beyond adding/removing fluid to/from a room, fluids can also cause rooms to raise/lower)
Auras(Heat and Cold being easy to do mechanically through turning on/off a furnace)

[heavyfuel]

This almost sounds like a video game, one of the ones where you switch between a "light world" and a "Dark World" like in Legend of Zelda games. I could see someone basing a puzzle room or part of a dungeon on such a thing, but I wouldn't do TOO much with it or your players might get a little bored or irritated or worse...clever.

I wouldnt say exactly like that, as I want both dungeons accessible at the same time, and not just one OR the other. But sure, similar enough.

And yeah, I wasnt planning on having too many puzzles like these, just enough to justify the big finale that I already have planned, which involves this duality.


I have not seen/built something like that but I have though about it. You would want some reason the two dungeons are linked. If they are close geographically (say 2 dungeons intertwined like a pair of snakes) then you could have a direct mechanical connection. Otherwise you might want to use magical(portal magic, sympathetic magic, ...) connections.

The most important thing about creating puzzles in RPGs is that you should strive to have at least 2-3 answers to each puzzle and accept other valid solutions to bypass/overcome those obstacles.

These room effects can be of the same kind or of a differing kind.
Effects of the same kind can be symmetric or mirrored.

Examples:
Flood one room rotates the other (different kind)
Flood one room drains the other (same kind, mirrored effect)
Rotate one room rotates the other the same direction (same kind, symmetric effect)

Brainstorm:
Gears(Rotating a part of a room, a room itself, or even moving rooms by rotating larger areas)
Fluids(Beyond adding/removing fluid to/from a room, fluids can also cause rooms to raise/lower)
Auras(Heat and Cold being easy to do mechanically through turning on/off a furnace)

The reason exists, and while Im not sure if the players really know the why, there have been plenty of hints. So it wont catch them by total surprise. I was thinking more magical connections, as they are too far apart for mechanical connections to make sense.

I honestly have no problems with creative solutions, and my plans are that the puzzles only ease some parts, but maybe arent necessary at all.

All of you examples and brainstrom suggestions are great. If you (or anybody, really) have any other suggestions, theyd be much appreciated

[Barstro]

How aware are the characters (players) that this is possible? Even the most simple puzzle is impossible if you do not even understand the rules.

To the extent that they do not even understand what is going on, I would railroad them early on so that they understand there are two dungeons and what is done in one affects the other.

My thought is;
1. The first room in the dungeon has no exit
2. (whatever) happens and they are in the first room of the second dungeon that has a door (barricaded, but easily broken).
3. They smash that door, but it goes to a hallway that has no exit.
4. (-whatever) happens and they are back in the first dungeon, first room, but there is now a tunnel where the door was.

[finaldooms]

Not really the same thing. .but i ended up running a dungeon like a portal. .the party walked into the first room and there were 3 different colored doors. .each one went to a different area. ( my group was being rather troublesome so eventually we made it to a room with 640 different doors) ..anyways you could do something similar and have say red door go to red room in the other place and have a mini puzzle to clear the way forward?

[John Longarrow]

You can always steal a long standing trope to support this. Items in Dungeon 1 protect areas/items in dungeon 2 and vice versa. Take out the protecting ward and you drop one of the protections granted.

Think the 2nd death star and the shield generator for an example from the movies. In this case the players are popping back and forth trying to figure out what protects what and how to drop it.

[heavyfuel]

How aware are the characters (players) that this is possible? Even the most simple puzzle is impossible if you do not even understand the rules.

To the extent that they do not even understand what is going on, I would railroad them early on so that they understand there are two dungeons and what is done in one affects the other.

My thought is;
1. The first room in the dungeon has no exit
2. (whatever) happens and they are in the first room of the second dungeon that has a door (barricaded, but easily broken).
3. They smash that door, but it goes to a hallway that has no exit.
4. (-whatever) happens and they are back in the first dungeon, first room, but there is now a tunnel where the door was.

At the moment, pretty aware. I intend to make the initial puzzle pretty easy so they can understand this fully by the time they actually start the dungeon

Thats a pretty good way to start it. Thanks!


Not really the same thing. .but i ended up running a dungeon like a portal. .the party walked into the first room and there were 3 different colored doors. .each one went to a different area. ( my group was being rather troublesome so eventually we made it to a room with 640 different doors) ..anyways you could do something similar and have say red door go to red room in the other place and have a mini puzzle to clear the way forward?

Not sure if I understand your dungeon concept. Is it basically just a bunch of doors leading to mysterious places?

Regardless, I might adapt this idea. Maybe some closed doors that open to nowhere in one dungeon make similar doors open to actual passageways in the other.


You can always steal a long standing trope to support this. Items in Dungeon 1 protect areas/items in dungeon 2 and vice versa. Take out the protecting ward and you drop one of the protections granted.

Think the 2nd death star and the shield generator for an example from the movies. In this case the players are popping back and forth trying to figure out what protects what and how to drop it.

Ya! I had totaly though about something like this too! I just need more ideas :smallbiggrin:

[OldTrees1]

A long form brainstorm:

Two Dungeons of similar construction. Each was built based upon a large disc platform rotating around a vertical axle.

The first dungeon's disc is suspended upon an artificial underground lake (sourced from a nearby above ground body of water). The level of the water is controlled by the second dungeon. The axle is an overenthusiastic furnace (when turned on rooms near the center of the disc are unbearable). If the furance is turned off then the outermost rooms get a bt chilly

The second dungeon's disc is anchored into a rocky floor however the axle is threaded and will move up and down as controlled by the first dungeon.

To lower the water 20ft in the first dungeon, a room in the second is flooded. (several rooms)
To raise the axle 30ft in the second dungeon, a room in the first is flipped upside down. (several rooms)
To turn on/off the furnace in the first dungeon, a stone ring is rotated in one the rooms in the second dungeon. (several rooms)

[Ualaa]

Not so much geared towards twin dungeons, per se.
More so to dungeons in general.

I've got a fair bit of material from Frog God Games.
A lot of their stuff in 1st edition feel, but whatever edition rules.
They've had stuff with 3.x, Pathfinder, and 5.x edition rulesets.

You can get a lot of their material in PDF format, which is a lot cheaper than the books.
You can buy on their site or on Drive Thru RPG.

That is assuming you're looking for dungeon challenges.



Our group had a blast within Rappan Athuk.
There are numerous challenges or puzzles, along with a plethora of nasty traps.

Slumbering Tsar is even larger than RA.
The Blast Monastery or Tomb of Abyssthor are much smaller products, but of a similar vein.

While not geared specifically to dual-dungeons, there are ideas from these.

We had a room, where there were several ways out of the room.
But most of the doors were closed, except the one the group entered from.
The other doors were 'stuck' closed, as if barred from the other side.
Smashing the door, initially attracted wandering monsters... so that is not always viable.
However, it revealed that the doors had sockets along each of the edges, with one inch thick iron sliding into place every six inches or so, along all edges.
This made bashing through a rather slower and difficult process.
It took a while, but they eventually figured with all doors closed, the bars retract; open any door, and the bars enter the other doors making the room a strong choke point...

Lots of puzzles to solve in the FGG stuff, if you're looking for things that make the players think.

[finaldooms]

Not sure if I understand your dungeon concept. Is it basically just a bunch of doors leading to mysterious places?

Regardless, I might adapt this idea. Maybe some closed doors that open to nowhere in one dungeon make similar doors open to actual passageways in :smallbiggrin:

Sorta but that works too. .in my case it was room 1 has 3 doors. Red,blue, green. Red just put them back into the same room. Blue took them to a room with 2 doors and a window ( green and white) green took them to a "wet room" that was dark with a narrow path to the next door.. ..and so on so forth. ..one of the doors eventually warped them into hell for a little lol. ... Also this got really hard to keep track of with 12 people deciding to use 12 different doors at once since i didnt want to ruin the surprise for someone else

[Calthropstu]

Unfortunately, puzzles like this tend to fail in tabletop games.

"what? I have to travel to the other dungeon, defeat a monster, and trigger a switch to get through this door? Ok, instead of all that, I begin swinging my +2 adamantine battle axe at the door for the next 2 hours."

[OldTrees1]

Unfortunately, puzzles like this tend to fail in tabletop games.

"what? I have to travel to the other dungeon, defeat a monster, and trigger a switch to get through this door? Ok, instead of all that, I begin swinging my +2 adamantine battle axe at the door for the next 2 hours."

Try to balance the unlock and the overcome routes.

Say I have a hallway guarded by hidden bleakborn (cold damage aura) underneath the floor. A lever in a nearby room would lower the bleak born. Alternatively the PCs could come up with a plan to manage the cold damage long enough.

Another example would be the flooded room. They could either drain the room from elsewhere or have an underwater encounter.

Just don't use a door.

[Barstro]

Unfortunately, puzzles like this tend to fail in tabletop games.

"what? I have to travel to the other dungeon, defeat a monster, and trigger a switch to get through this door? Ok, instead of all that, I begin swinging my +2 adamantine battle axe at the door for the next 2 hours."

Sounds like my current game. This, of course, is preceded by 20 minutes of real time discussion convincing the DM that it will work and pouting until he concedes.

[Ualaa]

I'm not saying to buy on Amazon, but this one was a puzzle dungeon: https://www.amazon.com/Labyrinth-Madness-Fantasy-Roleplaying-Adventure/dp/0786903309

You had so much area explored.
AA-BB-CC-DD-EE

If you acquired a symbol (touched it), in Area AA.
Next time you went to DD, you'd find a new area.
So it would now be:

AA-BB-CC-DD-EE
------------KK----
------------LL-MM

Doing something in KK would reveal a symbol, which could be added to further your area...
00-AA-BB...

Just check out the errata, to change three rooms.
Without the errata, the place is impossible to finish.

But that was supposed to be the most difficult 2nd edition dungeon to finish, to commemorate the 20th year of TSR.

[Ualaa]

Unfortunately, puzzles like this tend to fail in tabletop games.

"what? I have to travel to the other dungeon, defeat a monster, and trigger a switch to get through this door? Ok, instead of all that, I begin swinging my +2 adamantine battle axe at the door for the next 2 hours."

I had a player regularly do this kind of thing, no interest in keys, no interest in letting the rogue try to lock.

The primary solution is that it takes a bit of time to bash down the door.
During that time, you automatically attract a wandering monster.
While I didn't follow it, the dungeon suggested wandering monsters were not worth any experience, never had loot, etc, were just a drain on resources... it was first edition style.

You alert everything on the far side, that you're coming through.
There might be nothing there, in which case your pre-buffs are wasted, if you do it every time.
But there might be something there, and if there is they will pre-buff and be four rounds ahead in the action turn economy.
The shaman and witch doctors are a lot tougher when they both have Shield of Faith, Mage Armor and Barkskin, along with all of those on their champion grappler monk.

If you're okay with melee having toys too...
The caster can bypass the door easily, why can't melee have the option?
In general the caster is stronger already, is this too strong for a melee to have??

But if you're not...
Or if you want to go with realism, some of the time.
You could make it a 'load bearing' point in the dungeon.
Sure smash away, until the ceiling comes down on you, in that section of the dungeon/castle.
Realistic, would be everything or nothing Reflex save, if you're buried under 11 tons of rock you died automatically, although in d20/pathfinder that might just be 20d6 damage and survivable.
Those not crushed can now climb the rubble to the next level up, but the doorway is impassable short of a week of clearing rock.

[heavyfuel]

A long form brainstorm:

Two Dungeons of similar construction. Each was built based upon a large disc platform rotating around a vertical axle.

The first dungeon's disc is suspended upon an artificial underground lake (sourced from a nearby above ground body of water). The level of the water is controlled by the second dungeon. The axle is an overenthusiastic furnace (when turned on rooms near the center of the disc are unbearable). If the furance is turned off then the outermost rooms get a bt chilly

The second dungeon's disc is anchored into a rocky floor however the axle is threaded and will move up and down as controlled by the first dungeon.

To lower the water 20ft in the first dungeon, a room in the second is flooded. (several rooms)
To raise the axle 30ft in the second dungeon, a room in the first is flipped upside down. (several rooms)
To turn on/off the furnace in the first dungeon, a stone ring is rotated in one the rooms in the second dungeon. (several rooms)

That is such a good idea! Definitely using it!


Not so much geared towards twin dungeons, per se.
More so to dungeons in general.

I've got a fair bit of material from Frog God Games.
A lot of their stuff in 1st edition feel, but whatever edition rules.
They've had stuff with 3.x, Pathfinder, and 5.x edition rulesets.

You can get a lot of their material in PDF format, which is a lot cheaper than the books.
You can buy on their site or on Drive Thru RPG.

That is assuming you're looking for dungeon challenges.



Our group had a blast within Rappan Athuk.
There are numerous challenges or puzzles, along with a plethora of nasty traps.

Slumbering Tsar is even larger than RA.
The Blast Monastery or Tomb of Abyssthor are much smaller products, but of a similar vein.

While not geared specifically to dual-dungeons, there are ideas from these.

We had a room, where there were several ways out of the room.
But most of the doors were closed, except the one the group entered from.
The other doors were 'stuck' closed, as if barred from the other side.
Smashing the door, initially attracted wandering monsters... so that is not always viable.
However, it revealed that the doors had sockets along each of the edges, with one inch thick iron sliding into place every six inches or so, along all edges.
This made bashing through a rather slower and difficult process.
It took a while, but they eventually figured with all doors closed, the bars retract; open any door, and the bars enter the other doors making the room a strong choke point...

Lots of puzzles to solve in the FGG stuff, if you're looking for things that make the players think.



I'm not saying to buy on Amazon, but this one was a puzzle dungeon: https://www.amazon.com/Labyrinth-Madness-Fantasy-Roleplaying-Adventure/dp/0786903309

You had so much area explored.
AA-BB-CC-DD-EE

If you acquired a symbol (touched it), in Area AA.
Next time you went to DD, you'd find a new area.
So it would now be:

AA-BB-CC-DD-EE
------------KK----
------------LL-MM

Doing something in KK would reveal a symbol, which could be added to further your area...
00-AA-BB...

Just check out the errata, to change three rooms.
Without the errata, the place is impossible to finish.

But that was supposed to be the most difficult 2nd edition dungeon to finish, to commemorate the 20th year of TSR.

Sure, I can adapt these suggestions to involve two dungeons instead of just one. Pretty neat


Sorta but that works too. .in my case it was room 1 has 3 doors. Red,blue, green. Red just put them back into the same room. Blue took them to a room with 2 doors and a window ( green and white) green took them to a "wet room" that was dark with a narrow path to the next door.. ..and so on so forth. ..one of the doors eventually warped them into hell for a little lol. ... Also this got really hard to keep track of with 12 people deciding to use 12 different doors at once since i didnt want to ruin the surprise for someone else

Oh, got it. I realy hadn´t understood it before.


Unfortunately, puzzles like this tend to fail in tabletop games.

"what? I have to travel to the other dungeon, defeat a monster, and trigger a switch to get through this door? Ok, instead of all that, I begin swinging my +2 adamantine battle axe at the door for the next 2 hours."



Sounds like my current game. This, of course, is preceded by 20 minutes of real time discussion convincing the DM that it will work and pouting until he concedes.



I had a player regularly do this kind of thing, no interest in keys, no interest in letting the rogue try to lock.

The primary solution is that it takes a bit of time to bash down the door.
During that time, you automatically attract a wandering monster.
While I didn't follow it, the dungeon suggested wandering monsters were not worth any experience, never had loot, etc, were just a drain on resources... it was first edition style.

You alert everything on the far side, that you're coming through.
There might be nothing there, in which case your pre-buffs are wasted, if you do it every time.
But there might be something there, and if there is they will pre-buff and be four rounds ahead in the action turn economy.
The shaman and witch doctors are a lot tougher when they both have Shield of Faith, Mage Armor and Barkskin, along with all of those on their champion grappler monk.

If you're okay with melee having toys too...
The caster can bypass the door easily, why can't melee have the option?
In general the caster is stronger already, is this too strong for a melee to have??

But if you're not...
Or if you want to go with realism, some of the time.
You could make it a 'load bearing' point in the dungeon.
Sure smash away, until the ceiling comes down on you, in that section of the dungeon/castle.
Realistic, would be everything or nothing Reflex save, if you're buried under 11 tons of rock you died automatically, although in d20/pathfinder that might just be 20d6 damage and survivable.
Those not crushed can now climb the rubble to the next level up, but the doorway is impassable short of a week of clearing rock.

I said I have no problems with alternative solutions. If they want to spend days bashing away at doors and walls, or casting stone shape after stone shape so be it. Normally I like to put time sensitive details in dungeons (oh, you have to get to the end before high noon on the summer solstice - or something like that) to discourage these behaviors though.


Try to balance the unlock and the overcome routes.

Say I have a hallway guarded by hidden bleakborn (cold damage aura) underneath the floor. A lever in a nearby room would lower the bleak born. Alternatively the PCs could come up with a plan to manage the cold damage long enough.

Another example would be the flooded room. They could either drain the room from elsewhere or have an underwater encounter.

Just don't use a door.

Or I could do something like this.