Monk Unearthed Arcana Released - Kensai & Tranquility

[jaappleton]

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/monk-monastic-traditions

I'm currently getting a 403 Forbidden Error, I think I found it a little early...

[rbstr]

It's working now!

[Sir cryosin]

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/monk-monastic-traditions

I'm currently getting a 403 Forbidden Error, I think I found it a little early...

Haha u ninja my post lol I'm getting the same error.

[MasterMercury]

No Drunken Master :(

[Nishant]

Kensei is everything I wanted it to be. Surprised they didn't make it a fighter, but I'm really happy with how it came out for monks.

[Tanarii]

Now I want to make a Str-based Longbow Kensai that attacks using Strength and pummels her targets at range for an additional 1d4 damage on each attack she makes. AC would be crap though. Obviously only good for a one-shot that will involve lots of space for ranged attacks or kiting, but it'd be awesome for the lolz

[jaappleton]

I called it in the Monk UA Speculation topic: Healer Monk.

They're putting a MAJOR emphasis on healing with these UA articles. Makes me worry about what kind of monsters they're going to put out next.

Only two Archetypes here. I'm a little disappointed in that, considering there's so much they have to play with.

At first glance, Kensai seems bland to me. Tranquility's 'Healing Hands' is strictly superior to Paladins Lay on Hands, since it can be used as part of Flurry of Blows, thus only taking a Bonus Action.

Tranquility seems to offer little in the way of expending Ki. Odd.

[jaappleton]

Wait, does Kensai allow for Strength based Longbows to be used by Barbarians?! IS THAT A THING NOW?!

[JumboWheat01]

Ah, replied to the other thread. Might as well drop what I said there over here.


Kensei's not really a surprise, though it is nice, and pretty potent.

Tranquility, on the other hand, was not quite what I was expecting. It's a bit MAD, as it's pretty much a Social Monk, with healing thrown on for good measure. The fact that it doesn't have any Ki eating abilities is interesting, though I don't know if I like that or not. At least you can use these actions and not have it taken away from your standard monk abilities. Kinda wish they got something other than Lay on Hands though.

Anger of the Gentle Soul, however, may be one of my favorite abilities. Using your reaction to get up to +20 damage for your next turn is just tasty.

[Tanarii]

Wait, does Kensai allow for Strength based Longbows to be used by Barbarians?! IS THAT A THING NOW?!And by Fighters and Paladins in Heavy Armor. It's a 3-level Monk investment for the feature though, that might be considered fairly steep by some people. OTOH if you also wanted 1d4+Str unarmed attacks with flurry of blows for tavern brawls and the like when you're unarmed/unarmored, it might be worth it in the right campaign. :)

[jaappleton]

And by Fighters and Paladins in Heavy Armor. It's a 3-level Monk investment for the feature though, that might be considered fairly steep by some people. OTOH if you also wanted 1d4+Str unarmed attacks with flurry of blows for tavern brawls and the like when you're unarmed/unarmored, it might be worth it in the right campaign. :)

It also means 2h Greatswords with Dex...

Monks with GWM? Stunning Strike + GWM on a Monk... Whoa.

[MrStabby]

Path of tranquility... if you want to play a hippy pacifist then I am not sure that D&D is the system for you.

Kensai - meh. Its ok but also a mess. Kensai weapons are not monk weapons (thankfully) so it does mean some things are still restricted and you may have difficulty using your core class abilities.

Away from book so not sure if they are martial or not - but blowpipes and nets? Could they become a thing? A solid damage die on a net is no small matter and using it with dex is a nice bonus.

[Discord]

Any three martial weapons, and your choice of Str or Dex for the attacks and damage. So a Greataxe Wielding Monk who can GWM with his attacks?

[Trum4n1208]

I was going to play a Revised Ranger/Cleric next game, but now I have to go Revised Ranger/Kensai. I absolutely love how Kensai, & the ability to use DEX for any martial weapons is fantastic.

[jaappleton]

Any three martial weapons, and your choice of Str or Dex for the attacks and damage. So a Greataxe Wielding Monk who can GWM with his attacks?

With Stunning Strike, no less.


They will have to be VERY careful about the wording when Kensai is finalized, if they want to prevent that abuse. If its left as it is, Monks have just shot RIGHT up the DPR charts.

[MrStabby]

With Stunning Strike, no less.


They will have to be VERY careful about the wording when Kensai is finalized, if they want to prevent that abuse. If its left as it is, Monks have just shot RIGHT up the DPR charts.

Doesn't stunning strike have to be a monk weapon? I don't have my book to hand.

[Tanarii]

I was going to play a Revised Ranger/Cleric next game, but now I have to go Revised Ranger/Kensai. I absolutely love that subclass, & the ability to use DEX for any martial weapons is fantastic.Any three. I'm sure you meant "any martial weapon you select". Just being pedantic.

[Hawkstar]

It also means 2h Greatswords with Dex...

Monks with GWM? Stunning Strike + GWM on a Monk... Whoa.

Try a glaive. GWP+PAM on a monk. And, fluff the glaive as a Guan-Dao, and it looks awesome as hell too.

[jaappleton]

Doesn't stunning strike have to be a monk weapon? I don't have my book to hand.

"melee weapon attack"

[Trum4n1208]

Any three. I'm sure you meant "any martial weapon you select". Just being pedantic.

You are correct, my bad.

[Sir cryosin]

Doesn't stunning strike have to be a monk weapon? I don't have my book to hand.

No it doesn't have to be a monk weapon.

[DireSickFish]

I'd still want to be doing one attack with the Greatsword then one attack with my fist to get the +2 AC boost. You're still getting a damage boost and have the benefits of a shield.

Tranquility is where it's at though. The healing costs half a bonus action and can get a fighter or barbarian to near full. Making them the beast healer on the field. And with a monks mobility they should be able to get to anyone that goes down. The other features are also super thematic.

[MrStabby]

No it doesn't have to be a monk weapon.

OK, so it looks like their efforts to balance UA have been pretty short lived.

[jaappleton]

I'd still want to be doing one attack with the Greatsword then one attack with my fist to get the +2 AC boost. You're still getting a damage boost and have the benefits of a shield.

Tranquility is where it's at though. The healing costs half a bonus action and can get a fighter or barbarian to near full. Making them the beast healer on the field. And with a monks mobility they should be able to get to anyone that goes down. The other features are also super thematic.

That capstone might be the best in the game. Better than the Open Hand, since a Legendary Action can negate it. This one? 17 (minimum) extra damage on a class that specializes in multiple attacks per round. 68 extra damage with four attacks. Be an Aasimar (Volo's) on top of it for the fun of it.

[Shining Wrath]

Sorta against the idea of another class having a better Lay On Hands than the Paladin.

Can't reach the PDF right now, but allowing Monk abilities to be used with any weapon seems like it would require some careful balancing.

[Sir cryosin]

OK, so it looks like their efforts to balance UA have been pretty short lived.

There not much you can do. That you weren't able to do before. It just allows you to use Dex in place of str. With that you are not sacrificing AC And flurry of blows. And I'm not to worry about damage because all the kensei abilitys uses up your bonus action meaning no flurry of blows.

[LudicSavant]

I'm a bit worried about the implementation of Anger of a Gentle Soul. Basically you go into rage mode when your ally gets hurt. Sound like a cool general concept. But let's look at the implications of the particular way it's implemented:

You get a considerable bonus to damage when you see a creature dropped to zero hp. Think about that. You get a large, fight-ending bonus to damage for failing to protect another creature from harm. To the astute, the conflict of interest is obvious. It potentially incentivizes the peace monk to put people in danger so that they'll get knocked out, and then get healed, and then the enemy will get wrecked. An optimizer would just acquire a pet mouse or a hireling to follow them around or something so that they could trigger their rage mode any time they're hit by an AoE.

And that's a weird disconnect. It's a mechanic that creates a conflict of interest between RP and tactics and strongly rewards metagaming, and that's not cool.

They should adjust the wording of the mechanic to eliminate the conflict of interest and metagaming shenanigans.

[Maxilian]

I really like it, Tranquility (love it) one of my favorite Monk options.

Kensai is pretty nice cause it opens up a lot of interesting options (the ability to give you +2 AC is a little strong, i would have changed it to -only can be used when you only use your UA with your Attack Action-), not sure how i feel with the Kensai weapons that allow other things to be played with STR or DEX.

Note: A part of me like it, mainly because of the interesting characters you can make with this (STR Archer? Yes please!), but i do think that Monks with 2-handed weapon with DEX may be too much

[jaappleton]

There not much you can do. That you weren't able to do before. It just allows you to use Dex in place of str. With that you are not sacrificing AC And flurry of blows. And I'm not to worry about damage because all the kensei abilitys uses up your bonus action meaning no flurry of blows.

But now you have Glaives and other 2H weapons, coupled with the Advantage-inducing mechanic of Stunning Strike, on Monks with Greatweapon Master. That's strong. That's VERY strong.

[Arkhios]

Cool ideas, but I think these are a bit all over the place this time.

That said, I guess we can have our Longsword wielding eberron monks with kensei, although their fluff isn't exactly one-to-one. And zen archers. That's not small thing for just one sub-class.

Healing Hands is like Lay on Hands x 2.5 (healing pool double the size + you can trade some unarmed strikes for using those heals). Pretty damn powerful, in comparison.

[RulesJD]

Ooookay so Kensai needs some (a lot) toning down. As is, there's not really any reason to be a Str based character outside of Barbarian Reckless Attack.

While you would lose your free Bonus Action attack if you do the Greatsword as your Kensai weapon, Flurry of Blows isn't limited. So you can still do two Greatsword/GWM attacks, then for 1 ki make two unarmed strikes. Throw in Divine Favor/Hex and you're reaching some stupid high (relatively) sustainable damage numbers. Even worse with Stunning Strike not caring.

I do love the stupid amount of diversity it gives the Monk in combat. Can forgo one attack to get +2 AC while still making 3 attacks/turn. Sharpen the Blade obviously should be rewritten to only work on non-magical weapons. Otherwise you're looking at +6 Greatswords with GWM.

The Pummel feature is fairly bland, and I can't ever see using it. The Monk will be roflstomping through enemies so GWM bonus attack will trigger fairly often, and the +2d4 damage is easily outweighed by Flurry of Blows for the bonus action.

[Maxilian]

An optimizer would just carry a mouse in their pocket or something so that they could trigger their rage mode any time they're hit by an AoE.


You need to be able to see the victim, you can't see the mouse in your pocket

[jaappleton]

Tranqulity's Healing Hands says you can replace one of your Unarmed Strikes to heal when you Flurry.

Can you use both? Can I activate Flurry, punch my Fighter friend to heal him, then run to my Wizard friend and uppercut 20 HP into his jaw?

[LudicSavant]

You need to be able to see the victim, you can't see the mouse in your pocket

That's a bit beside the point. They carry it on their shoulder, then. Or have a dog or a cat or a hireling.

I'm worried about the mechanic because it's a pretty straightforward case of creating an RP/mechanics conflict of interest. They could easily change the wording to be more reasonable.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Tranquility level 17 seems potentially seriously competitive with damage.

I like that Kensai is Zen archer. I don't like that it's a pretty broken dip. I also think the +2AC is kinda silly, and should explicitly not stack with shields. Maybe it should be a new formula. Forge 1 / Kensai 3 = 23 AC w/o any spells, 25 with Shield of Faith, 30 momentary AC with shield.

I really like the idea of a Hunter / Paladin / Kensai multiclass demonhunter. Not that it'd be particularly amazingly powerful, just that it seems cool.

[Sir cryosin]

But now you have Glaives and other 2H weapons, coupled with the Advantage-inducing mechanic of Stunning Strike, on Monks with Greatweapon Master. That's strong. That's VERY strong.

You could do that before.

[Tanarii]

The downside to using a Kensai Weapon is you no longer get unarmed attack at Monk Die + Dex damage for a bonus action. Instead it's replaced with a flat 1d4 damage. That makes the base damage the weapon does become less valuable, relatively speaking, as your Monk Die and Dex increase. Depending on what magical items you get and feats you select, that may not be particularly important of course.

However, I'm AFB, but IIRC you *can* still Flurry of Blows on a non-monk-weapon Attack Action.

[Trum4n1208]

Any three. I'm sure you meant "any martial weapon you select". Just being pedantic.

Hold up, in this particular case I might be right. As written, it says "A martial weapon is considered a kensei weapon for you if you're proficient in it." So with that build including ranger, every martial weapon is a kensei weapon.

I would personally rule it as you can only pick three martial weapons to be kensei weapons, but what do you all think?

[DireSickFish]

I really like it, Tranquility (love it) one of my favorite Monk options.

Kensai is pretty nice cause it opens up a lot of interesting options (the ability to give you +2 AC is a little strong, i would have changed it to -only can be used when you only use your UA with your Attack Action-), not sure how i feel with the Kensai weapons that allow other things to be played with STR or DEX.

Note: A part of me like it, mainly because of the interesting characters you can make with this (STR Archer? Yes please!), but i do think that Monks with 2-handed weapon with DEX may be too much

The +2AC isn't that big a deal. Barbarians can already use a shield and get the same unarmed armor as a monk.

[jaappleton]

Hold up, in this particular case I might be right. As written, it says "A martial weapon is considered a kensei weapon for you if you're proficient in it." So with that build including ranger, every martial weapon is a kensei weapon.

I would personally rule it as you can only pick three martial weapons to be kensei weapons, but what do you all think?

The wording on UA has always been written without multiclassing in mind, I believe. I think Crawford stated that specifically.

So whenever you read UA, think of 'RAI', not 'RAW'.

Although if you're trying to survive a cruel DM, go RAW if it benefits you :smallbiggrin:

[Tanarii]

Hold up, in this particular case I might be right. As written, it says "A martial weapon is considered a kensei weapon for you if you're proficient in it." So with that build including ranger, every martial weapon is a kensei weapon.

I would personally rule it as you can only pick three martial weapons to be kensei weapons, but what do you all think?
Absolutely, you're correct. I was wrong. It's any three + any others you're proficient in by other means.

[rooneg]

Hold up, in this particular case I might be right. As written, it says "A martial weapon is considered a kensei weapon for you if you're proficient in it." So with that build including ranger, every martial weapon is a kensei weapon.

I would personally rule it as you can only pick three martial weapons to be kensei weapons, but what do you all think?

The rules obviously intend for any weapon you have proficiency in to be a kensai weapon. If they wanted it to be restricted to those three weapons they'd have restricted it to those three weapons.

[Tanarii]

The wording on UA has always been written without multiclassing in mind, I believe. I think Crawford stated that specifically.

So whenever you read UA, think of 'RAI', not 'RAW'.

Although if you're trying to survive a cruel DM, go RAW if it benefits you :smallbiggrin:
Well in this case it's god-awful, since it allows use of Kensai weapons while armored. Which is thematically inappropriate, at least for D&D Kensai.

[DireSickFish]

The downside to using a Kensai Weapon is you no longer get unarmed attack at Monk Die + Dex damage for a bonus action. Instead it's replaced with a flat 1d4 damage. That makes the base damage the weapon does become less valuable, relatively speaking, as your Monk Die and Dex increase. Depending on what magical items you get and feats you select, that may not be particularly important of course.

However, I'm AFB, but IIRC you *can* still Flurry of Blows on a non-monk-weapon Attack Action.

Can't you just hit with your Kensi weapon with 1 attack, then unarmed strike for your 2nd attack, then bonus action flurry of blows for 2 more unarmed attacks to get all the attacks and +2 AC?

[jaappleton]

Well in this case it's god-awful, since it allows use of Kensai weapons while armored. Which is thematically in appropriate, at least for D&D Kensai.

It's very interesting to me that they named it 'Kensai' weapons, not 'Martial Arts' weapons or 'Monk Weapons'.

[Tanarii]

Can't you just hit with your Kensi weapon with 1 attack, then unarmed strike for your 2nd attack, then bonus action flurry of blows for 2 more unarmed attacks to get all the attacks and +2 AC?Yes but it cost you Ki to do it that way.


It's very interesting to me that they named it 'Kensai' weapons, not 'Martial Arts' weapons or 'Monk Weapons'.
Yeah, that jumped out immediately at me. Kensai Weapon != Monk Weapons, and do not function with the Martial Arts rules. They are their own thing that follow their own specified rules.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

The downside to using a Kensai Weapon is you no longer get unarmed attack at Monk Die + Dex damage for a bonus action. Instead it's replaced with a flat 1d4 damage. That makes the base damage the weapon does become less valuable, relatively speaking, as your Monk Die and Dex increase. Depending on what magical items you get and feats you select, that may not be particularly important of course.

However, I'm AFB, but IIRC you *can* still Flurry of Blows on a non-monk-weapon Attack Action.

Correct. You can also Stunning Strike, incidentally.

Kensei makes a rather nice dip for martials (and vice versa), incidentally - bear in mind that 'a martial weapon is considered a kensei weapon if you are proficient with it', i.e. not just the three weapons you pick with the subclass, so a single level in fighter kensei-ises all martial weapons. Combined with the fact that Path of the Kensei doesn't require you to be unarmoured (unlike Martial Arts), and this opens up the Full Plate wearing Str Monk as a very viable possibility.

[lunaticfringe]

Kensai doesn't seem bad. I have seen some just awful 5e updates for it that don't feel like 5e at all. A lot of people want/love a Kensai/Martial Weapon Monk so it's nice to have something to use that isn't a bunch of 3.X abilities jammed into a monk or Fighter archetype.

F the Tranquility Monk on general principle. I find people who play characters who are constantly trying to stop every combat from happening because their Snowflake is a pacifist annoying. Combat happens, you don't have to be a MurderHobo, but this D&D for the Far Realms sake. I don't allow Pacifist Characters at my table it gets old fast, can cause disharmony among the party, and can decrease the overall fun level. (Nothing personal if playing that way gets your jollies off, to each their own)

[Sir cryosin]

The downside to using a Kensai Weapon is you no longer get unarmed attack at Monk Die + Dex damage for a bonus action. Instead it's replaced with a flat 1d4 damage. That makes the base damage the weapon does become less valuable, relatively speaking, as your Monk Die and Dex increase. Depending on what magical items you get and feats you select, that may not be particularly important of course.

However, I'm AFB, but IIRC you *can* still Flurry of Blows on a non-monk-weapon Attack Action.

Yes yes you can still flurry with a non monk weapon. And other then the greatsword and the feat gwm. The kensei is not getting to much more damage in the long run. It now comparable to fighter or paladin damage. I would like for some mathematician to run the numbers for us.

[RickAllison]

Alright, I'll put up my thoughts without regard for what has been posted:

Way of Kensei:


Path of the Kensei: 1) Gain proficiency of three martial weapons and have martial weapons you are proficient with considered kensei weapons, which by the phrasing includes any martial weapons gained through other means as the only requirement is proficiency; 2) Dexterity-based greatswords and polearms, Strength-based nets, and hand crossbows get to be used with martial arts die, this could be fun; 3) Pummeling is... interesting, as it provides an interesting alternative bonus action, but also bonus damage for my ranged monks; 4) Act like a regular monk for the turn and get to effectively have a shield, and even better if you get a Defender! Notably, you do lose the bonus action attack, and correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think it gives the monk the ability to use Martial Arts die for unarmed strikes while wielding the the non-monk-but-kensei weapons, so Flurry of Blows becomes... I don't know, it is weird. I would think it just means that you are expected on a given turn to be using the kensei weapon (wielded, so no Martial Arts) or unarmed (so kensei weapon held for the +2 AC). Interesting...

One with the Blade: Magic weapon damage is always nice, and Precise Strike has some interesting ideas. It isn't something I would use often, but it is a very nice thing to have on hand.

Sharpen the Blade: Making the weapons even more magical! Interesting, and it very much seems to serve the purpose of the monk being an artist with a weapon. He can pick up a random large object that he would be considered proficient for and treat it as if it were a legendary +3 magic weapon. He is the person who could walk into a castle, grab their flag, and wield it as if it were among the most powerful weapons in the world!

Unerring Accuracy: Well dang. Pretty basic ability, but extremely useful.


Way of Tranquility: This is the combat medic. Love it. I could definitely see 3 levels of this combined with a Thief and the healer feat for rapid-fire healing.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

F the Tranquility Monk on general principle. I find people who play characters who are constantly trying to stop every combat from happening because their Snowflake is a pacifist annoying. Combat happens, you don't have to be a MurderHobo, but this D&D for the Far Realms sake. I don't allow Pacifist Characters at my table it gets old fast, can cause disharmony among the party, and can decrease the overall fun level. (Nothing personal if playing that way gets your jollies off, to each their own)

...There is absolutely nothing there that obligates you to be a pacifist. No Good Alignment requirement. Nothing preventing you fighting, killing, even coup de grace-ing. There isn't even a Paladin-style code of conduct. You could play it as an ultra-aggressive chaotic evil murderhobo if you wanted to. Might not be the most optimal choice, since most of its abilities are geared towards a fairly support-focused, defensive playstyle, but it carries no roleplaying constraints whatsoever. A Tranquility Monk must no more be a pacifist than an Assassin Rogue must be a hired killer.

[Maxilian]

That's a bit beside the point. They carry it on their shoulder, then. Or have a dog or a cat or a hireling.

Still, in the end, its a really high lvl ability so i don't think its much of a problem.

Welp at least with those other options, they expending 25 gold (at least, on the dog/cat or more if its a hireling)

[jaappleton]

Still, in the end, its a really high lvl ability so i don't think its much of a problem.

Welp at least with those other options, they expending 25 gold (at least, on the dog/cat or more if its a hireling)

Magic Initiate: Find Familiar

Whenever your Familiar goes down, beat the crap out of someone who killed your pet Owl.

[Maxilian]

F the Tranquility Monk on general principle. I find people who play characters who are constantly trying to stop every combat from happening because their Snowflake is a pacifist annoying. Combat happens, you don't have to be a MurderHobo, but this D&D for the Far Realms sake. I don't allow Pacifist Characters at my table it gets old fast, can cause disharmony among the party, and can decrease the overall fun level. (Nothing personal if playing that way gets your jollies off, to each their own)

You make me sad, mainly cause i have been looking to play a pacifist character (a Healbot), in the end, it may push combat back sometimes, but it brings even more RP opcions! (Also its not like its going to ALWAYS work) -There are many creatures that are not intelligent so its hard to... "negotiate for peace"-

[MrStabby]

There not much you can do. That you weren't able to do before. It just allows you to use Dex in place of str. With that you are not sacrificing AC And flurry of blows. And I'm not to worry about damage because all the kensei abilities uses up your bonus action meaning no flurry of blows.

I think you underrate some of this. Dexterity is a much better raw stat than strength. There are two losses, firstly slowed by heavier armours, secondly if you focus on dex over str you don't get to use weapons like greatswords and halberds that have superb feat support. Armour doesn't matter to a monk as they can replace it with their wisdom bonus. The kensei ability covers the rest.

With this you can pull cheese like pole arm mastery +sentinel by just taking pole arm mastery and stunning your enemies. You don't have to worry about that loss of damage from your bonus action - that d4 PAM bonus action attack is now with a Kensei weapon so bigger die and gets stats added to it. Likewise with greatweapon master - you have an alternative source of bonus action uses so don't need a small one.

This is all at third level (apart from the scaling martial arts die). Easy enough to dip if multiclassing is ok. Why would a ranger not take three levels? after level 5 or 6? Or indeed the other way round - I can see tables with quite a few ranger monks about if that table were to allow this and multiclassing.



Feats are an optional rule, I think if I were to allow this archetype I would do so on the condition that feats were not taken.

[Maxilian]

Magic Initiate: Find Familiar

Whenever your Familiar goes down, beat the crap out of someone who killed your pet Owl.

That's a nice way to use it (Still not like you're not sacrificing anything to get this)

Note: That may give you a reason to use any other type of familiar (Will provoke reaction, so if the enemy decide to beat the **** out of it, it will suffer)

[jaappleton]

Alright, so the Kensai Monk can do the following:

Wield Greatswords with Dex
Stun people
Run up walls
Travel at immense speed
Have supernatural accuracy with their strikes
Fall without taking damage
Dodge barrages of ranged (AoE) attacks



.....Did... Did they just make a Jedi?

[CursedRhubarb]

"A martial weapon is considered a kensei weapon for you if you’re proficient with it"

This will need some re-wording before it gets finalized. As is, a single level of fighter makes all weapons kensei weapons and some races will add some for those who stay single classed. Wood Elves and Hill Dwarves will make for very versitile Monks. Wood Elves would get any 3 + Longsword and Longbow added. Hill Dwarves would get any 3 + Battleaxe and Warhammer.

In all though, It doesn't look bad.

The "Anger of a Gentle Soul" ability woul be a great mesh with the UA Undying Light Warlock, Zealot Barbarian, and very nicely with Druids since lock hits 0hp then regains half hp, Zealot fights on when at 0hp, and druids when wildshape hit 0hp then turn back to normal.

Run a lock, barbarian, druid, and monk group and you could get the ability to proc quite often.

With a Zealot, let him hit 0hp then attack and flurry, and give him 1hp by trading a flurry attack and you could sustain the damage boost for a long while.

[BDRook]

You make me sad, mainly cause i have been looking to play a pacifist character (a Healbot), in the end, it may push combat back sometimes, but it brings even more RP opcions! (Also its not like its going to ALWAYS work) -There are many creatures that are not intelligent so its hard to... "negotiate for peace"-

Exactly! As long as the player knows that sometimes its inevitable that combat will happen they can be fun. My pacifist cleric was never one to start a fight, but damn sure keep his comrades alive long enough to finish one.

[Maxilian]

Alright, I'll put up my thoughts without regard for what has been posted:

Way of Kensei:

[LIST]
Path of the Kensei: 1) Gain proficiency of three martial weapons and have martial weapons you are proficient with considered kensei weapons, which by the phrasing includes any martial weapons gained through other means as the only requirement is proficiency; 2) Dexterity-based greatswords and polearms, Strength-based nets, and hand crossbows get to be used with martial arts die, this could be fun; 3) Pummeling is... interesting, as it provides an interesting alternative bonus action, but also bonus damage for my ranged monks; 4) Act like a regular monk for the turn and get to effectively have a shield, and even better if you get a Defender! Notably, you do lose the bonus action attack, and correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think it gives the monk the ability to use Martial Arts die for unarmed strikes while wielding the the non-monk-but-kensei weapons, so Flurry of Blows becomes... I don't know, it is weird. I would think it just means that you are expected on a given turn to be using the kensei weapon (wielded, so no Martial Arts) or unarmed (so kensei weapon held for the +2 AC). Interesting...


I think that's a good trade off, but it still make it a pretty good option for low lvl dips

[Tanarii]

4) Act like a regular monk for the turn and get to effectively have a shield, and even better if you get a Defender! Notably, you do lose the bonus action attack, and correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think it gives the monk the ability to use Martial Arts die for unarmed strikes while wielding the the non-monk-but-kensei weapons, so Flurry of Blows becomes... I don't know, it is weird. I would think it just means that you are expected on a given turn to be using the kensei weapon (wielded, so no Martial Arts) or unarmed (so kensei weapon held for the +2 AC).Once you get Extra Attack at 5th level, you get the best of both worlds. You attack once with your weapon as a Kensai Weapon using Dex, attack once with your unarmed attack as a Martial Arts weapon, trigger your bonus attack unarmed attack or spend a point for Flurry of Blows, and get +2 to AC.

Also, pretty sure your unarmed attacks are always a Martial Arts weapon as long as you don't wear armor. So you're getting Monk damage die and Dex to hit/damage.

[Flashy]

that d4 PAM bonus action attack is now with a Kensei weapon so bigger die and gets stats added to it.

It's a relatively minor quibble but Kensai weapons are not the same thing as Monk weapons and do not appear to scale with martial arts die.

[TekDragon]

I am livid about the Tranquility Lay on Hands. That is easily TRIPLE as good as the Paladin Lay on Hands. You get DOUBLE the pool AND you can use it as PART of a bonus action, where-as Paladins require the entire action.

I'm honestly surprised they didn't add a sub-class with a pet that's 3x as powerful/useful as the Ranger Beast Master, or a sub-class with raging that puts the Barbarian's rage to shame.

Absolutely ridiculous.

[MrStabby]

It's a relatively minor quibble but Kensai weapons are not the same thing as Monk weapons and do not appear to scale with martial arts die.

"Whenever you wield a kensei weapon, you
choose whether to use Dexterity or Strength
for the attack and damage rolls of the weapon,
and you choose whether to use your Martial
Arts damage die in place of the weapon’s
damage die."

[TheTeaMustFlow]

With this you can pull cheese like pole arm mastery +sentinel by just taking pole arm mastery and stunning your enemies. You don't have to worry about that loss of damage from your bonus action - that d4 PAM bonus action attack is now with a Kensei weapon so bigger die and gets stats added to it.

While you are strictly correct - Polearm master explicitly states that "the weapon's damage die for [the bonus action attack] is d4", and Path of the Kensei, like Martial Arts, lets you "use your Martial Arts damage die in place of the weapon's damage die", I think this is very clearly an oversight and not RAI.

...Though come to think of it, the same question would also apply to any Monk using Polearm Master with a Quarterstaff. I don't suppose this has ever been addressed by Sage Advice or somesuch?

[DrDinocrusher]

No drunken master, RIOT. But the kensei is pretty cool and solves a big part of the monk's issue with finding magic weapons at least. Greatsword monks are going to be a lot of fun to use with GWM. Bonus action to target an enemy, next turn wail on them and dance away with a bonus action disengage or mobility if you have it. Way of tranquility is interesting and makes for a good team healer, but I don't find the higher level abilities that intriguing. Sort of weird that their capstone is becoming a murder machine as well.

[jaappleton]

I am livid about the Tranquility Lay on Hands. That is easily TRIPLE as good as the Paladin Lay on Hands. You get DOUBLE the pool AND you can use it as PART of a bonus action, where-as Paladins require the entire action.

I'm honestly surprised they didn't add a sub-class with a pet that's 3x as powerful/useful as the Ranger Beast Master, or a sub-class with raging that puts the Barbarian's rage to shame.

Absolutely ridiculous.

Tranquility Monks are now the best single target healers in the game, and it's not even a question. I understand being livid. I think it should be SLIGHTLY superior to Paladin, since I think Paladins can do a bit more (especially Nova damage). But how it is now simply puts the Paladin to shame.

[Flashy]

I am livid about the Tranquility Lay on Hands. That is easily TRIPLE as good as the Paladin Lay on Hands. You get DOUBLE the pool AND you can use it as PART of a bonus action, where-as Paladins require the entire action.

I'm honestly surprised they didn't add a sub-class with a pet that's 3x as powerful/useful as the Ranger Beast Master, or a sub-class with raging that puts the Barbarian's rage to shame.

Absolutely ridiculous.

It has been pretty obvious throughout this last batch of Unearthed Arcana that they consider the default healing woefully inadequate at this point. EVERYTHING with new healing options makes the Paladin look like a joke.

And considering that healing is the main theme of the Tranquility monk I really don't mind it. Lay on Hands has always been something of a Paladin afterthought.

[LudicSavant]

Magic Initiate: Find Familiar

Whenever your Familiar goes down, beat the crap out of someone who killed your pet Owl.

More or less. Seems pretty obvious that's not the intent, so they ought to tweak it.

[BDRook]

I'm honestly surprised they didn't add a sub-class with a pet that's 3x as powerful/useful as the Ranger Beast Master, or a sub-class with raging that puts the Barbarian's rage to shame.

Absolutely ridiculous.

Oh yeah Paladins are absolutely worthless now. Never mind that Paladins get plate armor, shields, all weapons, spells AND are one of the best damage dealing classes in the game. No because the pacifist monk can out heal them using their ki points that makes them unplayable.

[ad_hoc]

Kensai: This is fine I suppose, maybe overpowered. It's not interesting to me because there isn't narrative power to it. It's just a Monk with a weapon. As is it is better than the Open Hand.

At level 5 you can attack for 2d6+4, 1d6+4, 1d6+4, and get +2 AC all for no Ki cost. That's pretty good.

Tranquility: I like the idea but it needs more. A Monk with disarm, shove, grappling, and other non-damaging incapacitating powers would have been cool. For example, they could have a power to attempt to disarm (while taking the weapon) in the place of an attack. They could also have a power to attempt to shove an opponent as a reaction to their opponent missing them with an attack, and if successful it ends their opponent's turn (Judo inspired).


Path of Tranquility rework - Allow shove, grapple, and disarm attempts while under sanctuary spell. Replace Healing Hands with grapple and shove abilities. The other abilities are unchanged.

Path of Tranquility:
When you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you can become an island of calm in even the most chaotic of situations. With this feature, you can cast the sanctuary spell on yourself, no material component required, it lasts up to 8 hours, and does not end if you make a grapple, shove, or disarm attempt. Its saving throw DC equals 8+ your proficiency bonus + your Wisdom modifier. A creature that succeeds on the save is immune to this effect for 1 hour.

Once you cast the spell in this way, you can’t do so again for 1 minute.

Non-Violent Opposition
You have learned how to subdue an opponent without causing injury. When you attempt to grapple or shove a creature you may make a Dexterity (Acrobatics) check instead of a Strength (Athletics) check. In addition, if you make a successful Disarm attempt and you have at least one free hand, you may choose to catch the weapon.

When an opponent misses you with a melee attack, you may spend 1 Ki and use a reaction to make a shove attempt with advantage against that creature. If successful, you may push the creature up to 15 feet in any direction after which they fall prone and their turn immediately ends.


What do you think? My guess is that it is either good enough or could use one more minor ability.

[TekDragon]

Oh yeah Paladins are absolutely worthless now. Never mind that Paladins get plate armor, shields, all weapons, spells AND are one of the best damage dealing classes in the game. No because the pacifist monk can out heal them using their ki points that makes them unplayable.

Who are you talking to? Did someone steal my name and say that the Paladin is useless now, and you accidentally quoted the real me?

No, the Paladin isn't useless because of this. Nor would Barbarian be useless if a Monk sub-class got a rage that was 3x as useful. Nor would Ranger be useless if a Monk sub-class got a pet that was 3x as useful.

The point is that Lay on Hands is one of the defining attributes of the Paladin and has been for as long as I've played D&D, which is decades. There is no reason that a Monk sub-class should get the EXACT same mechanic, double it in power, and triple it in ease of use.

[Joe the Rat]

Alright, so the Kensai Monk can do the following:

Wield Greatswords with Dex
Stun people
Run up walls
Travel at immense speed
Have supernatural accuracy with their strikes
Fall without taking damage
Dodge barrages of ranged (AoE) attacks



.....Did... Did they just make a Jedi?They neglected to say you can Deflect Arrows with your kensai weapon, and there's still the mind trick angle. But other than that, yeah.


The kensai write-up feels a little ham-handed. Clarify if they intend all martial weapons (not just the four*) to qualify. Strange interactions with missile weapons. Dex GWM was a considered issue back in the 2014 homebrews, but I will hold judgement there for now. Other than that... it's kind of boring. Now you can weapon. Now you can magic weapon. The precision features are the big add in. I suppose part of me wanted something more battle-masterish, but that's what multiclassing is for.

Tranquility would be perfect for my AL monk. but clearly not an option. I like the general idea. The healing pool is high, but defines most of the archetype, and comes on line later than their crunchy Paladin buddies. My instinct is to spend ki for heals (5pts/1ki), but that may be costing too much (4E naysayers), or be even more ridiculous than double paladin (4E apologists).

* - Shortsword qualifies as both monk and kensai - and probably still should on the southern interpretation (only the chosen martial weapons). It would give you an interesting flexibility.

[Shining Wrath]

So this was just tweeted: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/808394289898131458

The pushback must be fierce.

[jaappleton]

They neglected to say you can Deflect Arrows with your kensai weapon, and there's still the mind trick angle. But other than that, yeah.


The kensai write-up feels a little ham-handed. Clarify if they intend all martial weapons (not just the four*) to qualify. Strange interactions with missile weapons. Dex GWM was a considered issue back in the 2014 homebrews, but I will hold judgement there for now. Other than that... it's kind of boring. Now you can weapon. Now you can magic weapon. The precision features are the big add in. I suppose part of me wanted something more battle-masterish, but that's what multiclassing is for.

Tranquility would be perfect for my AL monk. but clearly not an option. I like the general idea. The healing pool is high, but defines most of the archetype, and comes on line later than their crunchy Paladin buddies. My instinct is to spend ki for heals (5pts/1ki), but that may be costing too much (4E naysayers), or be even more ridiculous than double paladin (4E apologists).

* - Shortsword qualifies as both monk and kensai - and probably still should on the southern interpretation (only the chosen martial weapons). It would give you an interesting flexibility.

It's a little strange in that EVERY archetype level for the Kensai seems to be combat oriented. 'Pick some weapons, you can hit with whatever stat you want, and use it as a shield'. 'Those weapons? Magical now, and you can be more accurate'. 'Spend some Ki to REALLY increase your accuracy & damage'.

Very few archetypes are like that.

I've no doubt that Kensai is addressing 'Monk damage doesn't scale well!' complaints.

[jaappleton]

So this was just tweeted: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/808394289898131458

The pushback must be fierce.

He's said that a few times.

I've asked him twice, to see if the 1d4 bludgeoning in Kensai is supposed to be without any modifier. No response.

He claims he doesn't want to answer questions as to not 'sway' feedback, but I want to know if its 1d4 flat or 1d4 + mod because I need to know how to play it if I'm going to playtest it. This factors into a number of things; Should I use Unarmed Strikes or my Kensai weapon? How does damage stack up compared to other archetypes? Etc.

[MrStabby]

Other than that... it's kind of boring. Now you can weapon. Now you can magic weapon. The precision features are the big add in. I suppose part of me wanted something more battle-masterish, but that's what multiclassing is for.


I think this is an important thing and I think the archetype is a bit boring, but it is on top of one of the most fun and interactive classes in the game so the end result is still going to be pretty fun.

I do think that the damage boost is a big mistake though. Monks sacrifice damage (at higher levels anyway) for much better battlefield control and manoeuvrability than any other martial class. Now they don't lose out on the control but do much closer to the other guys amount of damage.

[RickAllison]

Once you get Extra Attack at 5th level, you get the best of both worlds. You attack once with your weapon as a Kensai Weapon using Dex, attack once with your unarmed attack as a Martial Arts weapon, trigger your bonus attack unarmed attack or spend a point for Flurry of Blows, and get +2 to AC.

Also, pretty sure your unarmed attacks are always a Martial Arts weapon as long as you don't wear armor. So you're getting Monk damage die and Dex to hit/damage.

Nope, Martial Arts benefits only apply if you "are unarmed or wielding only monk weapons and you aren't wearing armor or wielding a shield." So if you are wielding a kensei weapon besides the shortsword, you cannot use the benefits of Martial Arts. So if you are wielding the kensei weapon (which is definitely required to use it for the one attack), your unarmed strikes are made with Strength and only do the base 1 damage.

The real question is what defines wielding vs just holding as described in the last part of Path of the Kensei. I would go with Merriam-Webster, that to wield is to "handle (as a tool) especially effectively". This would mean that using the kensei weapon as a tool, as a weapon, means you are wielding and this ineligible for Martial Arts. By contrast, you can simply be holding the weapon, not using it as a weapon, and take advantage of Martial Arts and that final benefit of PotK. So as soon as you use that kensei weapon AS a weapon, you are precluding effective use of unarmed strikes barring juggling shenanigans. Also, wielding means you probably are also holding the weapon, as they are not mutually exclusive.

Thus, you would have the choice between 2Xgreatsword or 1Xgreatsword+1Xunarmed and +2 AC without the unarmed strike benefiting from Martial Arts. That seems fine.

[DireSickFish]

It's a little strange in that EVERY archetype level for the Kensai seems to be combat oriented. 'Pick some weapons, you can hit with whatever stat you want, and use it as a shield'. 'Those weapons? Magical now, and you can be more accurate'. 'Spend some Ki to REALLY increase your accuracy & damage'.

Very few archetypes are like that.

I've no doubt that Kensai is addressing 'Monk damage doesn't scale well!' complaints.

That would be my 1 complaint about the archetype. Makes it easy to use, but the chassie of Monk already is strong.

[Regitnui]

I must say, I prefer the Kensai here, just because of its link to the Shaolin monks. No criticism of the mechanics, though I'm a bit leery of the "hey, pick anything you want" part... Maybe this'd be a good place for Crippling Overspecialization; choose one weapon to be your kensai weapon and gain disadvantage wielding any other kind.


.....Did... Did they just make a Jedi?

I'm playing a warforged Kensai monk, perhaps with a mage hand spell from Magic Initiate. I'll paint him black, wear a cloak and enchant the sword to glow red.

[DivisibleByZero]

The rules obviously intend for any weapon you have proficiency in to be a kensai weapon. If they wanted it to be restricted to those three weapons they'd have restricted it to those three weapons.

To me, the intent is obviously that: (1) you choose three martial weapons to gain proficiency with, (2) these three weapons are added to your list of monk weapons, and (3) this new list of Kensai Weapons replaces and become interchangeable with your previous list of Monk Weapons.
Anything that required or was usable with Monk weapons are now usable with Kensai weapons.
Any martial weapons that you have proficiency with outside of these three, you still have proficiency with, but they aren't Kensai weapons.

I realize that this isn't strictly what it says, but you have to remember that this is UA test material, written in pencil, and written with no multiclassing in mind.
To me, the intent is clear.

[DracoKnight]

However, I'm AFB, but IIRC you *can* still Flurry of Blows on a non-monk-weapon Attack Action.

You are 100% correct.

[jaappleton]

He's said that a few times.

I've asked him twice, to see if the 1d4 bludgeoning in Kensai is supposed to be without any modifier. No response.

He claims he doesn't want to answer questions as to not 'sway' feedback, but I want to know if its 1d4 flat or 1d4 + mod because I need to know how to play it if I'm going to playtest it. This factors into a number of things; Should I use Unarmed Strikes or my Kensai weapon? How does damage stack up compared to other archetypes? Etc.

UPDATE:

Crawford: "The fact that you aren't sure of our intent is the feedback I want."

.......Dude, I get that. But I'd still like the damn question answered. I want to PLAYTEST it and I'd like to know WTF I should be doing.

[DireSickFish]

To me, the intent is obviously that: (1) you choose three martial weapons to gain proficiency with, (2) these three weapons are added to your list of monk weapons, and (3) this new list of Kensai Weapons replaces and become interchangeable with your previous list of Monk Weapons.
Anything that required or was usable with Monk weapons are now usable with Kensai weapons.
Any martial weapons that you have proficiency with outside of these three, you still have proficiency with, but they aren't Kensai weapons.

I realize that this isn't strictly what it says, but you have to remember that this is UA test material, written in pencil, and written with no multiclassing in mind.
To me, the intent is clear.

I'm with you for everything except counting the weapons as monk weapons. RAW never even mentions monk weapons, so there's no RAI to imply that they should be monk weapons.

[Joe the Rat]

He's said that a few times.

I've asked him twice, to see if the 1d4 bludgeoning in Kensai is supposed to be without any modifier. No response.

He claims he doesn't want to answer questions as to not 'sway' feedback, but I want to know if its 1d4 flat or 1d4 + mod because I need to know how to play it if I'm going to playtest it. This factors into a number of things; Should I use Unarmed Strikes or my Kensai weapon? How does damage stack up compared to other archetypes? Etc.

That's the kind of stuff I jam in the comments section. I'd say try it both ways for comparison's sake.

I'm going with mod, because that's how every other bonus action rider attack feature works (as opposed to the "standard" rule two-weapon fighting)- and this looks like a copy-paste of the polearm master feature.

We're not meeting again until after Festivus, but I'm thinking about offering this up to my game's monk to try as an alternative to his current "maneuvers-and-stances-and-a-martial-weapon" homebrew tradition.

[MasterMercury]

Who are you talking to? Did someone steal my name and say that the Paladin is useless now, and you accidentally quoted the real me?

No, the Paladin isn't useless because of this. Nor would Barbarian be useless if a Monk sub-class got a rage that was 3x as useful. Nor would Ranger be useless if a Monk sub-class got a pet that was 3x as useful.

The point is that Lay on Hands is one of the defining attributes of the Paladin and has been for as long as I've played D&D, which is decades. There is no reason that a Monk sub-class should get the EXACT same mechanic, double it in power, and triple it in ease of use.

An easy solution would probably be to make it cost KI. 1 Ki = 5 or 10 hp. The paladin can heal all day without sacrificing anything, but monks have to sacrifice their main resource.

[DragonSorcererX]

Loved the Kensei! I can finally make a Dex Greatsword Wielder with no Armor!

I hope we get a Ranged Paladin next! :smalltongue:

[RickAllison]

To me, the intent is obviously that: (1) you choose three martial weapons to gain proficiency with, (2) these three weapons are added to your list of monk weapons, and (3) this new list of Kensai Weapons replaces and become interchangeable with your previous list of Monk Weapons.
Anything that required or was usable with Monk weapons are now usable with Kensai weapons.
Any martial weapons that you have proficiency with outside of these three, you still have proficiency with, but they aren't Kensai weapons.

I realize that this isn't strictly what it says, but you have to remember that this is UA test material, written in pencil, and written with no multiclassing in mind.
To me, the intent is clear.

That is a pretty major logic jump. I would argue the intent is that the kensei weapons function differently than monk weapons, else they would have simply stated "You gain proficiency in three martial weapons. These martial weapons are considered monk weapons for you." Simple and it follows usage like the Bard Magical Secrets. That has an entirely different effect on the archetype, and actually empowers the very interpretations that have been suggested as overpowered.

Maybe it was intended that the kensei weapons are restricted to those three, maybe not. That is a matter of reasonable interpretation. But there exists no evidence that they were intended to work identically to monk weapons, and ample evidence against it!

Edit: Also, I would like to point out that the pummel feature isn't a bonus action attack! It is an automatic 1d4 bludgeoning to a target hit by the kensei weapon during the Attack action, and any others you would wish. You don't roll for attack, you don't get +mod for damage, and you don't get to activate any bonuses that rely on hitting with the attack. It functions differently than Martial Arts, or Polearm Master. It basically is a Magic Missile dart. Also isnt damage from a weapon attack and so bypasses most resistance and immunity.

[jaappleton]

That's the kind of stuff I jam in the comments section. I'd say try it both ways for comparison's sake.

I'm going with mod, because that's how every other bonus action rider attack feature works (as opposed to the "standard" rule two-weapon fighting)- and this looks like a copy-paste of the polearm master feature.

We're not meeting again until after Festivus, but I'm thinking about offering this up to my game's monk to try as an alternative to his current "maneuvers-and-stances-and-a-martial-weapon" homebrew tradition.

Crawford has now answered me. And he's right... It's actually very simple, and we all overlooked it.

It's a bonus action to deal another 1d4 bonus damage.

There's no attack roll. It's just a flat 1d4 bonus. No modifier gets applied.

[Trum4n1208]

The rules obviously intend for any weapon you have proficiency in to be a kensai weapon. If they wanted it to be restricted to those three weapons they'd have restricted it to those three weapons.

You're likely correct, but my gut reaction was "that seems like a lot," so this is just my opinion. I'm thinking of it like a soldier using a weapon he had been taught to use in boot camp and in training exercises vs. the weapon he uses in battle. He's proficient with both, but he's likely much better with the latter. In this case, you're proficient with all martial weapons, but you're REALLY good with your kensei weapons.

[DivisibleByZero]

He's said that a few times.

I've asked him twice, to see if the 1d4 bludgeoning in Kensai is supposed to be without any modifier. No response.

He claims he doesn't want to answer questions as to not 'sway' feedback, but I want to know if its 1d4 flat or 1d4 + mod because I need to know how to play it if I'm going to playtest it. This factors into a number of things; Should I use Unarmed Strikes or my Kensai weapon? How does damage stack up compared to other archetypes? Etc.

As written it's a flat 1d4.
But that 1d4 applies to every target you hit with the weapon that turn, so it's basically just a different bonus option. Martial Arts attack bonus attack with potentially a lower die and a mod, or Kensai bonus attack with potentially an higher die and a flat +1d4.


I'm with you for everything except counting the weapons as monk weapons. RAW never even mentions monk weapons, so there's no RAI to imply that they should be monk weapons.

Yes there is.

"Path of the Kensei
When you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you
learn to extend your knowledge of the martial
arts beyond the standard array of monk
weapons.
You gain the following benefits:"

The fact that they never mention Monk weapons in the actual descriptions is irrelevant to me. The opening line of the subclass gives me that information. You're extending your martial arts knowledge beyond the standard monk weapons to include the three you choose.
Remember, playtest, written quickly, written in pencil, with no multiclassing in mind.
Those three are clearly intended to be Monk weapons, but since they aren't standard monk weapons the entire list becomes Kensai weapons for you.
Like I said, the intent is clear to me.

[Sir cryosin]

I think you underrate some of this. Dexterity is a much better raw stat than strength. There are two losses, firstly slowed by heavier armours, secondly if you focus on dex over str you don't get to use weapons like greatswords and halberds that have superb feat support. Armour doesn't matter to a monk as they can replace it with their wisdom bonus. The kensei ability covers the rest.

With this you can pull cheese like pole arm mastery +sentinel by just taking pole arm mastery and stunning your enemies. You don't have to worry about that loss of damage from your bonus action - that d4 PAM bonus action attack is now with a Kensei weapon so bigger die and gets stats added to it. Likewise with greatweapon master - you have an alternative source of bonus action uses so don't need a small one.

This is all at third level (apart from the scaling martial arts die). Easy enough to dip if multiclassing is ok. Why would a ranger not take three levels? after level 5 or 6? Or indeed the other way round - I can see tables with quite a few ranger monks about if that table were to allow this and multiclassing.



Feats are an optional rule, I think if I were to allow this archetype I would do so on the condition that feats were not taken.

How is any of that more op then any other builds besides have a more usefull stat? explain how it op. What multiclass is going to be a god. How is it out damaging a paladin or a fight that can to the same with the feats mentioned. Ever person can't see all angles so plz enlighten us.

P.s that last statement is not a sarcastic one. I'm just curious and would like to see from your point of view.

[ZX6Rob]

UPDATE:

Crawford: "The fact that you aren't sure of our intent is the feedback I want."

.......Dude, I get that. But I'd still like the damn question answered. I want to PLAYTEST it and I'd like to know WTF I should be doing.

Well, it's written as 1d4 without the modifier, so my suggestion would be to play it as 1d4 without a modifier, and if you feel like it needs tweaking or requires that additional oomph, provide that feedback next week on the survey.

[MrStabby]

How is any of that more op then any other builds besides have a more usefull stat? explain how it op. What multiclass is going to be a god. How is it out damaging a paladin or a fight that can to the same with the feats mentioned. Ever person can't see all angles so plz enlighten us.

P.s that last statement is not a sarcastic one. I'm just curious and would like to see from your point of view.

The problem isn't that the class is outdamaging a paladin. The issue is that it is lessening the tradeoff. It can control the battlefield much better than a paladin, which is fine - it's the monks thing. Likewise it is more mobile than the paladin. The tradeoff is that the monk gets all these awesome abilities then falls behind in damage. With this archetype it barely falls behind at all. This class can get better AC than an paladin if the paladin is using a great weapon and proficiency in all saves so it is arguably defensively better as well. Previously it had to sacrifice useful access to things like great weapon master to do this. Now it no longer does.

If it helps - look at ki. Now you can do flurry of blows amounts of damage without spending Ki to do so, which is somewhat gamebreaking at lower levels. This means more Ki for stunning or other tricks. Monk is already a very powerful class and this really stretches the envelope for monk.

[Hrugner]

Tranquility monk offers another method of using wizard abjurer's Arcane Ward, probably not as good as grabbing warlock 2 for false life or deep gnome for nondetection, but 3 levels of monk isn't bad support for any support caster and it's a bonus action. Using sanctuary to force an attack to move to someone else is also a nice way to get an enemy to pick off a familiar for your anger of the gentle soul. Combining darkness with douse the flames of war could also make it very useful, throwing this on your darkness/devil's sight warlock would give it even more potency.

I think this archetype winds hands down in the DM frustrating gimmick department.

[BRC]

The Kensai looks best to me as an option for a zen-archer bow monk. At range you're more likely to be able to reach multiple targets to hit with your Pummel attack, and when people close to melee you just switch to unarmed strikes and start punching, using your bow as a shield for +2 AC.

Combine it with 3 levels of Ranger for Horde Breaker (which, according to the SRD at least, doesn't take your bonus action), allowing you to attack/pummel up to 3 targets with one Attack action.

[Fishybugs]

Any three. I'm sure you meant "any martial weapon you select". Just being pedantic.

Revised ranger has proficiency with all martial weapons, so it may work.

[Temperjoke]

They really seem to be trying to give every class some sort of healer option, aren't they? Maybe they're trying to free up clerics from being forced into a healer role just for playing a cleric?

[Tanarii]

Remember, playtest, written quickly, written in pencil, with no multiclassing in mind.
In that context, it's entirely possible the kensai weapons are martial weapons you're proficient in rule was really written in a way to make it include the Elf and Dwarf racial weapon proficiencies.


Revised ranger has proficiency with all martial weapons, so it may work.yeah, been corrected on that. :smallwink:

[jaappleton]

So let's fully examine the Kensai here. Just the PURE Kensai. No MC for this exercise. Lets really look at it, together, and see how it interacts with the core Monk features. My thoughts and notes will be in italics.

Level 3
-Gain proficiency with any 3 martial weapons. They're now 'Kensai weapons'.

-Kensai weapons can be used with Strength or Dex (This leads to all sorts of feat shenanigans)

-You can use your martial arts damage dice in place of the Kensai weapon dice (How does this work for 2H weapons like greatsword? Does it become 2d10 eventually?)

-You can use a bonus action to deal another 1d4 bludgeoning damage to targets you hit with your Attack action (So you can't Flurry of Blows, or Martial Arts, since MA requires a MONK weapon, not a Kensai one. Though this requires no Ki, unlike Flurry)

-+2 to AC if you attack with an unarmed strike with the Attack action while holding a Kensai weapon.( Isn't this technically impossible before lv5? You need to use a Monk weapon to use Martial Arts, and MA requires Monk weapons, not Kensai. Are Kensai weapons also Monk weapons by default?)



Level 6
-Kensai weapons are magical (A reason to keep using your Kensai weapon and not Unarmed Strikes)

-Once per short rest, spend a bonus action to double your proficiency bonus on your next attack roll (Not bad, it doesn't spend a Ki. I'd still rather Stun for a Ki point and have it last longer)


Level 11
-Spend up to 3 Ki for bonuses to attack & damage? Lasts a minute? (Nothing much to not like. It doesn't change anything, doesn't alter your play style, but it makes you that much better at everything you do.)


Level 17
Reroll one attack roll per turn. (Again, not game changing. Nothing flashy. Just makes you THAT much more effective.)


So what's confusing to me, really, is the level 3 features.

NOTE: Remember that Stunning Strike requires a melee weapon. So for those saying Zen Archer, keep that in mind.

[DireSickFish]

They really seem to be trying to give every class some sort of healer option, aren't they? Maybe they're trying to free up clerics from being forced into a healer role just for playing a cleric?

As a player of a Light Cleric where I was the only "healer" in the party. You can go a long long way without doing any healing and only using hit dice. They'd beg me for heals and I'd just keep on blasting. Good times. The monks died to Strahd, but good times none the less.

[Joe the Rat]

Crawford has now answered me. And he's right... It's actually very simple, and we all overlooked it.

It's a bonus action to deal another 1d4 bonus damage.

There's no attack roll. It's just a flat 1d4 bonus. No modifier gets applied.

>headsmack<
extra damage... That's not a lot for shutting down martial arts, but it does give you the guaranteed damage when you hit.

Hmmm... greatsword, plus greatsword for 4d6+2d4+2xmod. Or Greatsword 2d6 + mod, plus kick 1 + mod, and +2 to AC (and bonus action: +1d4, or 1 ki for 2+2xmod, or 1 ki for Patient defense?)... because while your weapon can use martial arts die, your unarmed strikes cannot (as a kensai weapon is not necessarily a monk weapon).

Is turning off martial arts a balancing feature, or a breaking error?

(Though now I am tempted to do a whip-monk).

[BRC]

-+2 to AC if you attack with an unarmed strike with the Attack action while holding a Kensai weapon.( Isn't this technically impossible before lv5? You need to use a Monk weapon to use Martial Arts, and MA requires Monk weapons, not Kensai. Are Kensai weapons also Monk weapons by default?)



This point at least you're wrong about.
You get the bonus if

1) You make an Unarmed Strike as part of an Attack Action
2) You are HOLDING your Kensai weapon.
You don't need to be holding a monk weapon to use Martial Arts. You can use unarmed strikes, which don't even require any empty hands.

If your Kensai weapon is a bow, and you choose to instead attack with unarmed strikes while holding the bow, you get the +2 AC bonus.

In fact, this ability as written does NOT work with monk weapons. If you, say, had a Kensai Longsword in one hand, and a shortsword (Monk weapon) in the other, using Martial Arts to attack with the Shortsword, then make a bonus unarmed attack, wouldn't work, since you made no unarmed strikes as part of your Attack action (the unarmed strike was as a bonus action. The attack LET you take that bonus action, but the bonus action is separate).

[Ovarwa]

Tranquility Monk is maybe a Sith.

You sit there, peacefully taunting "I am unarmed," and when they strike down your apprentice you wail on your enemies with the power of the Dark Side.

[Tanarii]

This point at least you're wrong about.
You get the bonus if

1) You make an Unarmed Strike as part of an Attack Action
2) You are HOLDING your Kensai weapon.
You don't need to be holding a monk weapon to use Martial Arts. You can use unarmed strikes, which don't even require any empty hands.
But the second one shuts down Martial Arts, doesn't it? So unarmed attack must use Str and does 1 pt of damage plus modifier.

Anyone with the PHB want to post the relevant rule for when you can and cannot use it? I'm confusing myself at this point lol

[Foxhound438]

But now you have Glaives and other 2H weapons, coupled with the Advantage-inducing mechanic of Stunning Strike, on Monks with Greatweapon Master. That's strong. That's VERY strong.

I point you no further than reckless attack, that thing that gives literally anything advantage and doesn't offer the target a save to avoid.

[thepsyker]

But the second one shuts down Martial Arts, doesn't it? So unarmed attack must use Str and does 1 pt of damage plus modifier.

Anyone with the PHB want to post the relevant rule for when you can and cannot use it? I'm confusing myself at this point lol

From the SRD:

"You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only monk weapons and you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a shield:"

So I guess it depends on the definition of "wielding," does holding count as wielding.

[Maxilian]

So let's fully examine the Kensai here. Just the PURE Kensai. No MC for this exercise. Lets really look at it, together, and see how it interacts with the core Monk features. My thoughts and notes will be in italics.

Level 3
-You can use your martial arts damage dice in place of the Kensai weapon dice (How does this work for 2H weapons like greatsword? Does it become 2d10 eventually?)

No if you chose to use the MW damage, it would go 1d10 (so better keep the weapon damage) -Making it irrelevant for some weapons-



-You can use a bonus action to deal another 1d4 bludgeoning damage to targets you hit with your Attack action (So you can't Flurry of Blows, or Martial Arts, since MA requires a MONK weapon, not a Kensai one. Though this requires no Ki, unlike Flurry)


Well a good option when you don't have Ki points to spend on FB (or just want to save them to stun)



-+2 to AC if you attack with an unarmed strike with the Attack action while holding a Kensai weapon.( Isn't this technically impossible before lv5? You need to use a Monk weapon to use Martial Arts, and MA requires Monk weapons, not Kensai. Are Kensai weapons also Monk weapons by default?)


No, you can attack with just your fist and not use the Kensai weapon (In case you only have one attack), in the end, it just require you to be holding your Kensai weapon, not use it for the attack



Level 6
-Kensai weapons are magical (A reason to keep using your Kensai weapon and not Unarmed Strikes)

At lvl 6, all monks get the ability to make their US magical (so irrelevant, they just want to make sure the Kensai weapon don't become weaker)



-Once per short rest, spend a bonus action to double your proficiency bonus on your next attack roll (Not bad, it doesn't spend a Ki. I'd still rather Stun for a Ki point and have it last longer)


Well we all know that this could work great with the -5 of the GWF feat



Level 11
-Spend up to 3 Ki for bonuses to attack & damage? Lasts a minute? (Nothing much to not like. It doesn't change anything, doesn't alter your play style, but it makes you that much better at everything you do.)


and it last a whole minute (that's the whole combat), its really good!



Level 17
Reroll one attack roll per turn. (Again, not game changing. Nothing flashy. Just makes you THAT much more effective.)


Yeah, its just nice.

[BRC]

But the second one shuts down Martial Arts, doesn't it? So unarmed attack must use Str and does 1 pt of damage plus modifier.

Anyone with the PHB want to post the relevant rule for when you can and cannot use it? I'm confusing myself at this point lol



You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only monk weapons and you aren't wearing armor or wielding a shield:
(From the SRD)

Hrmmm, forgot about that bit.

Which basically just limits it to Shortswords, the only Martial Weapon that is ALSO a monk weapon (Any martial weapon a monk has proficiency with is a Kensai Weapon).

I have a feeling that the RAI is supposed to be that kensai weapons count as Monk Weapons as well, but that's not written anywhere.

Unless you want to argue that it's possible to be "Holding" a greatsword (Say, in one-hand), but not WIELDING it (Which requires two hands), since the Kensai ability requires merely "Holding", and Martial Arts specifically says "Wielding". But that's really shaky logic.

[Maxilian]

But the second one shuts down Martial Arts, doesn't it? So unarmed attack must use Str and does 1 pt of damage plus modifier.

Anyone with the PHB want to post the relevant rule for when you can and cannot use it? I'm confusing myself at this point lol

By RAW, you would be right, the monk with the Kensai weapon would do only 1 damage + modif with their UA

[Foxhound438]

Yeah, that jumped out immediately at me. Kensai Weapon != Monk Weapons, and do not function with the Martial Arts rules. They are their own thing that follow their own specified rules.

note though, martial arts can be turned back on after you've made your greatsword attacks by sheathing/dropping it as your free item interaction, meaning your flurry of blows can still use monk die and dex mod. Next round switch order, action attack, before resolving any of your attacks flurry of blows, pick up the weapon as free object interaction, then resolve action attacks.

[jaappleton]

So then, before level 5, in order to gain the +2 to AC, you can't attack with your Kensei weapon, you can only attack with your unarmed strike.

Is that correct?

So prior to lv5, if you want +2 to AC, you have a shield in the shape of a Kensei weapon that you can't use Shield Master with. Right?

[rbstr]

Seems to me the Kensai weapons are designed to not be Monk weapons intentionally.

Two main reasons:
It takes away the martial arts die on unarmed strikes (including flurry of blows) to balance the potential for bigger weapon damage die.
It replaces the usual bonus action unarmed strike with the bonus action 1d4.

And exception is that the Shortsword is a martial weapon and thus a Kensai weapon (via "A martial weapon is considered a kensei weapon for you if you’re proficient with it.") and a Monk weapon.
That option is pretty cool. At level 5, sword on one hit, punch on the other, flurry. All get martial arts die and you still get your +2 AC!

[jaappleton]

At level 5, sword on one hit, punch on the other, flurry. All get martial arts die and you still get your +2 AC!

But you have to pick, Kensai attack or Unarmed attack prior to lv5. And prior to lv5, you can't Kensai then bonus action Unarmed attack, since a Kensai weapon isn't a Monk weapon.

[Giant2005]

Why is everyone reading the Kensai's pummel differently to me?
It doesn't apply to every attack you make on your turn, it applies to whichever attack you hit with and chose to sacrifice your bonus action to enhance. The only way to get more than an additional 1d4 damage in a single round is to find some means of hitting more than one target with a single weapon attack.

Also, does anyone remember when the game came out and it was kind of impressive that a level 20 Barbarian could get 24 AC? With this, a level 4 character (1 Barb, 3 Kensei) would have everything it needs but the stats themselves to achieve that same feat. Hell if it rolled well enough, it could even have the necessary stats by level 5.

[Giant2005]

But you have to pick, Kensai attack or Unarmed attack prior to lv5. And prior to lv5, you can't Kensai then bonus action Unarmed attack, since a Kensai weapon isn't a Monk weapon.

You can by using Flurry of Blows.

[Foxhound438]

So I think one of the better interactions for kensai is to just use PAM out the gate for the better die:

The PAM feat lets you have a bonus action attack, but "the weapon's damage die is a d4..."

Kensai weapon rules say "you chose whether to use your martial arts damage die in place of the weapon's damage die"

So monk lets you, 101% RAW, upgrade the bonus action die all the way to a d10, and you can still ultimately use GWM on 3 attacks.

Note that this is really no stronger than a barbarian using GWM+PAM on the offensive side (not to mention reckless attack makes barb do better at-will damage anyway), and is notably worse than a fighter, who gets up to 6 attacks with haste active as opposed to your 3. We could argue all day as to how "op" this is because you can power attack with dex, but we've had SS this whole damn time and up until now no one has ever complained about dex power attacks, and SS is distinctly better than GWM in that you can do it from 600 feet away, with free advantage from a greater invisibility that nothing will be in range of you to dispel or try to break your concentration on.

[Foxhound438]

So then, before level 5, in order to gain the +2 to AC, you can't attack with your Kensei weapon, you can only attack with your unarmed strike.

Is that correct?

So prior to lv5, if you want +2 to AC, you have a shield in the shape of a Kensei weapon that you can't use Shield Master with. Right?

If you really want the "shield" effect, you can use a shortsword to also have martial arts active. Kind of a "choose damage or defense, up to you", and I think that's good design, personally.

[DivisibleByZero]

Seems to me the Kensai weapons are designed to not be Monk weapons intentionally.

Two main reasons:
It takes away the martial arts die on unarmed strikes (including flurry of blows) to balance the potential for bigger weapon damage die.
It replaces the usual bonus action unarmed strike with the bonus action 1d4.

And exception is that the Shortsword is a martial weapon and thus a Kensai weapon (via "A martial weapon is considered a kensei weapon for you if you’re proficient with it.") and a Monk weapon.
That option is pretty cool. At level 5, sword on one hit, punch on the other, flurry. All get martial arts die and you still get your +2 AC!

"You gain proficiency with three martial
weapons of your choice. A martial weapon is
considered a kensei weapon for you if you’re
proficient with it.
• Whenever you wield a kensei weapon, you
choose whether to use Dexterity or Strength
for the attack and damage rolls of the weapon,
and you choose whether to use your Martial
Arts damage die in place of the weapon’s
damage die."

That is telling you that your Kensai weapons work exactly the same way as your other monk weapons.
What part of that makes people think that they aren't monk weapons?
Obviously they are intended to be monk weapons.
Read between the lines, people. Come on.

[DracoKnight]

We could argue all day as to how "op" this is because you can power attack with dex, but we've had SS this whole damn time and up until now no one has ever complained about dex power attacks, and SS is distinctly better than GWM in that you can do it from 600 feet away, with free advantage from a greater invisibility that nothing will be in range of you to dispel or try to break your concentration on.

This is exactly why the Kensei isn't OP.

[Tanarii]

Why is everyone reading the Kensai's pummel differently to me?
It doesn't apply to every attack you make on your turn, it applies to whichever attack you hit with and chose to sacrifice your bonus action to enhance. The only way to get more than an additional 1d4 damage in a single round is to find some means of hitting more than one target with a single weapon attack.
When you take the Attack action on your turn and hit a target with a kensei weapon, you can use a bonus action to pummel the target, dealing an additional 1d4 bludgeoning damage to that target and to any other target you hit with the weapon as part of the Attack.

If you take the Attack Action, attack twice (due to Extra Attack), hit two different targets, and then use your bonus action to do 1d4 extra damage to any target you hit as part of the Attack [Action], it will do damage to both targets.

[Foxhound438]

When you take the Attack action on your turn and hit a target with a kensei weapon, you can use a bonus action to pummel the target, dealing an additional 1d4 bludgeoning damage to that target and to any other target you hit with the weapon as part of the Attack.

If you take the Attack Action, attack twice (due to Extra Attack), hit two different targets, and then use your bonus action to do 1d4 extra damage to any target you hit as part of the Attack [Action], it will do damage to both targets.

the condition is that you take the attack action and then hit. it triggers on one hit.

[DivisibleByZero]

This is exactly why the Kensei isn't OP.

Claiming that something isn't OP because it isn't as powerful as what is literally the most OP thing in the game is a losing argument.
SS isn't the line. SS is already over the line.

[Giant2005]

When you take the Attack action on your turn and hit a target with a kensei weapon, you can use a bonus action to pummel the target, dealing an additional 1d4 bludgeoning damage to that target and to any other target you hit with the weapon as part of the Attack.

If you take the Attack Action, attack twice (due to Extra Attack), hit two different targets, and then use your bonus action to do 1d4 extra damage to any target you hit as part of the Attack [Action], it will do damage to both targets.

But you literally added the word Action in there yourself. You even stuck it in brackets, so I am pretty sure you are aware of that.

[Tanarii]

But you literally added the word Action in there yourself. You even stuck it in brackets, so I am pretty sure you are aware of that."the Attack", with caps, at the end of a sentence, can only mean "the Attack Action" referenced earlier in the sentence. I just added in the word to make that clear what it means.


the condition is that you take the attack action and then hit. it triggers on one hit.Yes. But you need to hit two targets to do 1d4 to each of them.

[MrStabby]

Claiming that something isn't OP because it isn't as powerful as what is literally the most OP thing in the game is a losing argument.
SS isn't the line. SS is already over the line.

Although you miss out that on SS attacks you cannot additionally break the action economy by stunning your target. That you can do this is what punches this above sharpshooter.

[Giant2005]

"You gain proficiency with three martial
weapons of your choice. A martial weapon is
considered a kensei weapon for you if you’re
proficient with it.
• Whenever you wield a kensei weapon, you
choose whether to use Dexterity or Strength
for the attack and damage rolls of the weapon,
and you choose whether to use your Martial
Arts damage die in place of the weapon’s
damage die."

That is telling you that your Kensai weapons work exactly the same way as your other monk weapons.
What part of that makes people think that they aren't monk weapons?
Obviously they are intended to be monk weapons.
Read between the lines, people. Come on.

The bullet pointed paragraph isn't the evidence you think it is - it is evidence of the complete opposite position you hold. If Kensei weapons were Monk weapons, then that bullet point wouldn't exist because them being Monk weapons would already be enough for those properties to apply. They had to write that bullet point specifically because Kensei weapons aren't Monk weapons.

[BRC]

But you literally added the word Action in there yourself. You even stuck it in brackets, so I am pretty sure you are aware of that.

Attack, when capitalized, usually refers to the Attack action, rather than an individual attack.

People are inferring that the capital A was intentional, rather than a typo.

[Giant2005]

"the Attack", with caps, at the end of a sentence, can only mean Attack Action referenced earlier in the sentence. I just added in the word to make that clear what it means.

No, it can obviously also mean an Attack. I'm more inclined to believe it is referencing an Attack, because that is what it actually says.

[Xethik]

Crawford has now answered me. And he's right... It's actually very simple, and we all overlooked it.

It's a bonus action to deal another 1d4 bonus damage.

There's no attack roll. It's just a flat 1d4 bonus. No modifier gets applied.

That's how I've been reading it and it confused me that there was all this talk of 1d4 + Str per attack and whatnot.

From a strict RAW reading, I read it as 1d4 bludgeoning damage to each target hit (2 attacks on the same guy is still just 1d4).

EDIT: Wow okay I guess I hadn't refreshed in a while. I see I was quite behind and there is a lot of talk about one attack or the Attack action.

[Tanarii]

No, it can obviously also mean an Attack. I'm more inclined to believe it is referencing an Attack, because that is what it actually says.
Okay, you go on believing that. But I'm telling you why you're reading it differently than everyone else. It's because you're ignoring that "the Attack" clearly references "the Attack Action" from earlier in the sentence.

[KorvinStarmast]

Crawford has now answered me. And he's right... It's actually very simple, and we all overlooked it.

It's a bonus action to deal another 1d4 bonus damage.

There's no attack roll. It's just a flat 1d4 bonus. No modifier gets applied.Got a link? I looked at a Crawford tweet and didn't see that answer.

[Shining Wrath]

Revised ranger has proficiency with all martial weapons, so it may work.

Original Ranger as well. Rangers have always been able to use longswords and longbows and what have you.


This point at least you're wrong about.
You get the bonus if

1) You make an Unarmed Strike as part of an Attack Action
2) You are HOLDING your Kensai weapon.
You don't need to be holding a monk weapon to use Martial Arts. You can use unarmed strikes, which don't even require any empty hands.

If your Kensai weapon is a bow, and you choose to instead attack with unarmed strikes while holding the bow, you get the +2 AC bonus.

In fact, this ability as written does NOT work with monk weapons. If you, say, had a Kensai Longsword in one hand, and a shortsword (Monk weapon) in the other, using Martial Arts to attack with the Shortsword, then make a bonus unarmed attack, wouldn't work, since you made no unarmed strikes as part of your Attack action (the unarmed strike was as a bonus action. The attack LET you take that bonus action, but the bonus action is separate).

Every watch a martial artist fight with a weapon in hand? They strike with the weapon if advantageous - or kick, or use elbows, or knees, or a free hand, or .... It may not be clear in the rules, but I'd rule that a monk can have both hands full and still kick a monster's butt. Possibly literally.


"You gain proficiency with three martial
weapons of your choice. A martial weapon is
considered a kensei weapon for you if you’re
proficient with it.
• Whenever you wield a kensei weapon, you
choose whether to use Dexterity or Strength
for the attack and damage rolls of the weapon,
and you choose whether to use your Martial
Arts damage die in place of the weapon’s
damage die."

That is telling you that your Kensai weapons work exactly the same way as your other monk weapons.
What part of that makes people think that they aren't monk weapons?
Obviously they are intended to be monk weapons.
Read between the lines, people. Come on.

It's not clear to me. Why wouldn't they say "a martial weapon is considered a monk weapon for you..." if there was no distinction between a kensei weapon and a monk weapon?

[Spacehamster]

Omg the Kensai is amazeballs. :D

[CursedRhubarb]

After bouncing back and forth from the UA and PHB I think I've figured a few things out that make the kensei make a bit more sense. Though still complicated.

Monk weapons and Kensei weapons are different with one exception: the Short sword, which is both a Monk and Kensei weapon.

You already have Short sword proficiency as part of the core monk set so you don't need to pick it as one.

Using a non-shortsword kensei weapon let's you hit harder for your weapon attacks (can have weapons with larger die than Martial Arts die) and can do GWM-Monk shenanigans, but the trade off is you are unable to use Martial Arts with unarmed attacks but the other core monk abilities still apply. This makes Flurry of Blows a bad choice for these builds but I feel that's why they have the +1d4 for a bonus action ability. Your weapon can hit harder, so bonus action damage is lower to balance out.

The +2 AC boost kensei ability is not likely to be very useful with a non-shortsword kensei weapon since you'd have to go with a 1+Str attack for one of your Attack Action attacks (your only one until 5th) to get the boost.

Now, if you use a shortsword, you can combine Kensei abilities with Martial Arts ones. This becomes most useful at lvl 5 when you get Extra Attack and you can attack with the shortsword for one and unarmed for the second. Then you can use either the pummel ability for a guaranteed 1d4 damage boost if your shortsword hit, or choose to use a ki point and flurry. Then because you use an unarmed strike in the attack action (FoB does not qualify since it's in the bonus action, not the attack action itself) you get the +2 AC boost. As you level your damage die will go up since Martial Arts die get bigger than the shortsword.

It opens up options to play a combat focused monk and gives a reason to carry a few weapon types.

[Tanarii]

Now, if you use a shortsword, you can combine Kensei abilities with Martial Arts ones. This becomes most useful at lvl 5 when you get Extra Attack and you can attack with the shortsword for one and unarmed for the second. Then you can use either the pummel ability for a guaranteed 1d4 damage boost if your shortsword hit, or choose to use a ki point and flurry. Then because you use an unarmed strike in the attack action (FoB does not qualify since it's in the bonus action, not the attack action itself) you get the +2 AC boost. As you level your damage die will go up since Martial Arts die get bigger than the shortsword.As far as I can see, the only thing you missed is that if you use your shortsword to make at least one attack and it hits, you can choose between pummel (automatic 1d4 to any target(s) hit by shortsword as part of the Attack Action) or the extra Martial Arts attack (any target, attack roll, 1d4 + Dex) for your bonus action.

Edit: And if you missed, you still get the Martial Arts bonus unarmed attack regardless.

[MinotaurWarrior]

I think kensai needs most class features to only work when meeting the conditions of unarmored movement.

Does the Kensai's freak accuracy matter? I think they're now by far the most accurate class in the game, with +20 and "reroll a miss" available without magic items. But I don't think any monsters are really directly built around high AC.

It's interesting that Pummel keys off of the attack action, so it doesn't work with volley or whirlwind attack. Also strange that it's called Pummel when you'd only want to do it with reach and ranged weapons.

It's funny that Kensai are by far the best blowgunners. I still think nets do no damage with them though. Also, whip is a great choice for the third kensai weapon.

Way of Tranquility has weird synergy with Wild Magic and Bard class levels. Also, having tranquility be so spammable makes them much more reliable at getting safely to the high priority target in the back ranks, and Douse makes it easy to end easy and medium encounters without spending resources, which makes them overall very good Assassins. We're coming at the king with guns fully loaded.

[MrStabby]

I think kensai needs most class features to only work when meeting the conditions of unarmored movement.

Does the Kensai's freak accuracy matter? I think they're now by far the most accurate class in the game, with +20 and "reroll a miss" available without magic items. But I don't think any monsters are really directly built around high AC.

It's interesting that Pummel keys off of the attack action, so it doesn't work with volley or whirlwind attack. Also strange that it's called Pummel when you'd only want to do it with reach and ranged weapons.

It's funny that Kensai are by far the best blowgunners. I still think nets do no damage with them though. Also, whip is a great choice for the third kensai weapon.

Way of Tranquility has weird synergy with Wild Magic and Bard class levels. Also, having tranquility be so spammable makes them much more reliable at getting safely to the high priority target in the back ranks, and Douse makes it easy to end easy and medium encounters without spending resources, which makes them overall very good Assassins. We're coming at the king with guns fully loaded.

Helmed horrors are a bit nasty for monks. Immune to stun AC 20 but only 60 HP. I would say of the things in the MM that my party has faced, these are probably the most reliant on armour for defence. A Kensei would do much better against these than the normal monk.

[jaappleton]

Got a link? I looked at a Crawford tweet and didn't see that answer.

It's tough to link since I'm on mobile, but my Twitter name is the same as here. Go to his Tweets and Replies and look for Appleton.

[Tanarii]

Does the Kensai's freak accuracy matter? I think they're now by far the most accurate class in the game, with +20 and "reroll a miss" available without magic items. But I don't think any monsters are really directly built around high AC.It sure helps when the Kensai select Greatsword & Longbow as his Martial weapons then takes the GWM & Sharpshooter feats. Think about how ridiculously broken GWM already is on Barbarians due to Reckless Attack.

[Foxhound438]

Claiming that something isn't OP because it isn't as powerful as what is literally the most OP thing in the game is a losing argument.
SS isn't the line. SS is already over the line.

And yet the only people who ever said that SS should be nerfed are the same people who want GWM nerfed to the same degree. If you're against power attacks, ban both, and it's not a problem here.


I think kensai needs most class features to only work when meeting the conditions of unarmored movement.

Does the Kensai's freak accuracy matter? I think they're now by far the most accurate class in the game, with +20 and "reroll a miss" available without magic items. But I don't think any monsters are really directly built around high AC.


None of the existing archetypes require that you meet unarmored movement standards, so why would you here? Any existing monk can still do all of its archetype stuff in full plate, but no one ever does because it isn't even good to do so.

Remember also that your +20 to attack is only once per rest, while a war cleric can get +24 to attack three times per rest, and doesn't even have to expend them until after they roll the d20.

[Tanarii]

Remember also that your +20 to attack is only once per rest, while a war cleric can get +24 to attack three times per rest, and doesn't even have to expend them until after they roll the d20.True that. And the reroll ability is level 17.

I'm letting my totally rational and justifiable bias against GWM get the better of me. :smallbiggrin:

[jaappleton]

Did I miss something? When do they get a +20 to attack?

[MinotaurWarrior]

Helmed horrors are a bit nasty for monks. Immune to stun AC 20 but only 60 HP. I would say of the things in the MM that my party has faced, these are probably the most reliant on armour for defence. A Kensei would do much better against these than the normal monk.

Good one.


It sure helps when the Kensai select Greatsword & Longbow as his Martial weapons then takes the GWM & Sharpshooter feats. Think about how ridiculously broken GWM already is on Barbarians due to Reckless Attack.

But is it even better DPR than previous GWM builds?



None of the existing archetypes require that you meet unarmored movement standards, so why would you here? Any existing monk can still do all of its archetype stuff in full plate, but no one ever does because it isn't even good to do so.

1) Fluff
2) Pre-existing archetypes didn't subvert the monk weapon requirements
3) pre-existing archetypes didn't mess with AC


Remember also that your +20 to attack is only once per rest, while a war cleric can get +24 to attack three times per rest, and doesn't even have to expend them until after they roll the d20.

Good point. Though I guess I could then ask, "does a war cleric / kensai combo's freak accuracy break anything". My guess is that the answer would still seem to be "no".

[Eragon123]

Did I miss something? When do they get a +20 to attack?

I think hes talking total.+5(STR) +6(Prof) +10(Channel Divinity)=21 @ 20th level.

[Foxhound438]

True that. And the reroll ability is level 17.

I'm letting my totally rational and justifiable bias against GWM get the better of me. :smallbiggrin:

Don't get me wrong, I hate how they did power attacks in this edition, relegating it so heavily to specific things so that specifically dex based melee martial characters get f****d

AKA monks.

Basically, I'm saying that monks finally can, through a very strenuous and internally conflictive (kensei weap means no martial arts bonus action) subtype that does nothing else, get an actually good DPR, and as a person that likes monks I'm telling everyone blowing their lids about this not even overpowered monk archetype to STFD.

If they hate GWM that much, they can house ban the feat, and then everything is fine.

[Tanarii]

If they hate GWM that much, they can house ban the feat, and then everything is fine.Yep. GWM and SS are a huge part of why my campaign is single class and featless.

That and I was going for a grognard feel.

[Foxhound438]

But is it even better DPR than previous GWM builds?


NO!

They only ever get 2 attacks off of it, unless they get the GWM bonus action (but even then a fighter has more attacks at base and thus will get the BA more often), and unlike BM fighter they don't have a way to retractively boost their attack roll, and unlike Vengeance pally they don't get to haste themselves, get free advantage, and reaction attacks.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Did I miss something? When do they get a +20 to attack?

When benefitting from both "precise strike" and "sharpen the blade".

[Xetheral]

For those wondering how the Kensai's extra accuracy affects average damage from GWM, I suggest checking out the GWM Reference Table thread in my signature. The tables at the end of the first post show the average damage gain from GWM based on hit chance and damage.

TLDR: Without advantage, each additional +1 to hit increases the average damage gain from GWM by 0.5 points under almost all circumstances. With advantage, each additional +1 to hit increases the average damage gain from GWM by 0.5 to 1.2 points in most circumstances.

[Malifice]

Yes but it cost you Ki to do it that way.


Yeah, that jumped out immediately at me. Kensai Weapon != Monk Weapons, and do not function with the Martial Arts rules. They are their own thing that follow their own specified rules.

Which means that on any round you wield a Kensai weapon you lose access to your martial arts class feature, meaning your unarmed damage is 1 point.

This includes flurry of blows Damage

[SethoMarkus]

Which means that on any round you wield a Kensai weapon you lose access to your martial arts class feature, meaning your unarmed damage is 1 point.

This includes flurry of blows Damage

Unless using a Shortsword as the Kensai weapon (as it is still a Monk weapon).

[Twelvetrees]

Is anyone else concerned that Path of Tranquility and Healing Hands appear to be strictly better than the Open Hand monk's Wholeness of Body and Tranquility?

From what I can tell, a Tranquility monk gets better versions of an Open Hand monk's 6th and 11th level features at 3rd level.

[Eragon123]

Is anyone else concerned that Path of Tranquility and Healing Hands appear to be strictly better than the Open Hand monk's Wholeness of Body and Tranquility?

From what I can tell, a Tranquility monk gets better versions of an Open Hand monk's 6th and 11th level features at 3rd level.

Yeah this unearthed arcana is complete ****. The Tranquility cannibalizes features from open hand and paladin in a role-play package that is more restrictive than 3.5 Paladins. It's obviously inspired by the Book of Exaulted Deeds but still restrictive role-play is one thing I'm glad got cut from 3.5. Overall this archtype feels like a DNDwiki class, maybe that's a bit harsh but still.

And the Kensai is a munchkin's paradise combined with weird rule interactions that is a headache for a DM. Seriously people give the avatar monk crap because it competes for a resource that the regular monk uses whereas Kensai can easily just shut down all of the features that monks normally get. I agree that the avatar monk is too expensive (I use a homebrew, this one https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1pdYIcfHauwNDM2My1XeWFYSDA/view) but still the amount of headscratching design decisions behind kensai is making me feel like I have lice.

[Malifice]

After bouncing back and forth from the UA and PHB I think I've figured a few things out that make the kensei make a bit more sense. Though still complicated.

Monk weapons and Kensei weapons are different with one exception: the Short sword, which is both a Monk and Kensei weapon.

You already have Short sword proficiency as part of the core monk set so you don't need to pick it as one.

Using a non-shortsword kensei weapon let's you hit harder for your weapon attacks (can have weapons with larger die than Martial Arts die) and can do GWM-Monk shenanigans, but the trade off is you are unable to use Martial Arts with unarmed attacks but the other core monk abilities still apply. This makes Flurry of Blows a bad choice for these builds but I feel that's why they have the +1d4 for a bonus action ability. Your weapon can hit harder, so bonus action damage is lower to balance out.

The +2 AC boost kensei ability is not likely to be very useful with a non-shortsword kensei weapon since you'd have to go with a 1+Str attack for one of your Attack Action attacks (your only one until 5th) to get the boost.

Now, if you use a shortsword, you can combine Kensei abilities with Martial Arts ones. This becomes most useful at lvl 5 when you get Extra Attack and you can attack with the shortsword for one and unarmed for the second. Then you can use either the pummel ability for a guaranteed 1d4 damage boost if your shortsword hit, or choose to use a ki point and flurry. Then because you use an unarmed strike in the attack action (FoB does not qualify since it's in the bonus action, not the attack action itself) you get the +2 AC boost. As you level your damage die will go up since Martial Arts die get bigger than the shortsword.

It opens up options to play a combat focused monk and gives a reason to carry a few weapon types.

Yep that's pretty much it.

While wielding a Kensai weapon, your unarmed damage drops to one plus ability modifier, and is strength only. Furthermore you lose the bonus action martial arts extra attack.

You could stop wielding the weapon and go all unarmed (Regaining your martial arts damage dice, The ability to substitute dexterity for strength, And the bonus action attack with your unarmed strikes) and gain +2 to AC.

I'm not sure if that's the intent though. I think the intent is you are still able to use your martial arts class feature while wielding a Kensai weapon.

[Draco4472]

It also means 2h Greatswords with Dex...

Monks with GWM? Stunning Strike + GWM on a Monk... Whoa.

That might be one of the best builds with this archetype DPS wise. Thank god Kensai weapons aren't counted as monk weapons, or you'd have broken it.

[Malifice]

Actually the rules makes a lot more sense if you include the sentence:

'kensai weapons are also considered Monk weapons for the purpose of the martial arts class feature'

[RickAllison]

Yep that's pretty much it.

While wielding a Kensai weapon, your unarmed damage drops to one plus ability modifier, and is strength only. Furthermore you lose the bonus action martial arts extra attack.

You could stop wielding the weapon and go all unarmed (Regaining your martial arts damage dice, The ability to substitute dexterity for strength, And the bonus action attack with your unarmed strikes) and gain +2 to AC.

I'm not sure if that's the intent though. I think the intent is you are still able to use your martial arts class feature while wielding a Kensai weapon.

I figure the intent is to force a choice between being a traditional monk and getting the high number of attacks (while still getting a +2 to AC since you are presumably still holding the weapon), or to instead use the new weapon options with some changes.

I think it ties in rather well with either a Warlock or Ranger dip to get Hex or Hunter's Mark. Not being reliant on your bonus action for your damage output means you can smash/slash with your big weapon when you need to switch around your spell while being able to go full-monk when the enemy survives while benefiting from the +2 AC (and the weapon option has a decent damage boost for when the creature doesn't die as easily as you thought). I actually like the idea of encouraging a variety of styles rather than just a single one. I don't think I would want Sharpshooter or GWM cheese on such a monk because it just lends itself to switching styles often.

[Malifice]

I figure the intent is to force a choice between being a traditional monk and getting the high number of attacks (while still getting a +2 to AC since you are presumably still holding the weapon), or to instead use the new weapon options with some changes.

I think it ties in rather well with either a Warlock or Ranger dip to get Hex or Hunter's Mark. Not being reliant on your bonus action for your damage output means you can smash/slash with your big weapon when you need to switch around your spell while being able to go full-monk when the enemy survives while benefiting from the +2 AC (and the weapon option has a decent damage boost for when the creature doesn't die as easily as you thought). I actually like the idea of encouraging a variety of styles rather than just a single one. I don't think I would want Sharpshooter or GWM cheese on such a monk because it just lends itself to switching styles often.

For mine the intent is a bit murky.

As written when using a Kensai weapon you lose access to your martial arts class feature.

[jaappleton]

Actually the rules makes a lot more sense if you include the sentence:

'kensai weapons are also considered Monk weapons for the purpose of the martial arts class feature'

IF, and this is a big if... IF Kensei weapons are also Monk weapons, then Monks can seemingly get ridiculous.

Seemingly.

My question is, when compared to say, a raging Barbarian, how does it compare? Reckless Attack VS Stunning Strike. GWM.

Someone much smarter than myself can lay out the numbers, right?

[jaappleton]

For mine the intent is a bit murky.

As written when using a Kensai weapon you lose access to your martial arts class feature.

Precisely.

[MrStabby]

IF, and this is a big if... IF Kensei weapons are also Monk weapons, then Monks can seemingly get ridiculous.

Seemingly.

My question is, when compared to say, a raging Barbarian, how does it compare? Reckless Attack VS Stunning Strike. GWM.

Someone much smarter than myself can lay out the numbers, right?

I know I am repeating myself but the the monk doesn't need to be the same as the barbarian for this to be a bad move. The issue isn't high damage but moderate damage with the ability to stun attached at no great cost. If you do that now with a monk you need God Stats, a low to hit bonus or to have key stats much lower than you want. I certainly rate stunning strike as better than reckless attack.

Not that reckless attack is bad - it is a powerful ability, even considering it's drawbacks.

[Eragon123]

INot that reckless attack is bad - it is a powerful ability, even considering it's drawbacks.

The drawback is making yourself a more attractive target than your squishy wizard friend who makes you faster later on.

[Talamare]

Kensei is just a mechanical mess, and needs to be reworked at its core

Tranquility is basically "Look ma, I'ma Paladin!"

I would ban Kensei from my table, because again it's a mechanical mess. I also ban Grave Cleric.

I think Tranquility is kinda of fine, just really... uninspired

[RickAllison]

For mine the intent is a bit murky.

As written when using a Kensai weapon you lose access to your martial arts class feature.

Key word bolded. That distinction is only pertinent when you are actively fighting with the weapon which barring juggling shenanigans should be on a per round basis. Just like one can carry a greatsword in one hand, but not wield it. Or how you can hold a shield, but you aren't wielding and using it until you don it.

The best example I can think of is from the incredibly cheesy "Looney Tunes: Back in Action". Near the end, the group triggers repeating dart traps while having to solve a puzzle and one of the protagonists holds his machete with a reverse grip to deflect the darts. He was not wielding it as a weapon, but took a defensive stance instead. That is how I imagine the defensive boost working, where the Kensei is manipulating the weapon in a way that is terrible for proper use as a weapon, but functions as an improvised shield. S/he can't wield the weapon effectively while using the striking Martial Arts, but s/he has found a way to keep the weapon useful during that time.

So you only miss out on Martial Arts when you are using the kensei weapon in a way that can be construed as wielding a weapon. Otherwise, you can carry around a greatsword in one hand, a pike in the other, and kicking people's faces in with Martial Arts. Hooray!

[jaappleton]

Key word bolded. That distinction is only pertinent when you are actively fighting with the weapon which barring juggling shenanigans should be on a per round basis. Just like one can carry a greatsword in one hand, but not wield it. Or how you can hold a shield, but you aren't wielding and using it until you don it.

The best example I can think of is from the incredibly cheesy "Looney Tunes: Back in Action". Near the end, the group triggers repeating dart traps while having to solve a puzzle and one of the protagonists holds his machete with a reverse grip to deflect the darts. He was not wielding it as a weapon, but took a defensive stance instead. That is how I imagine the defensive boost working, where the Kensei is manipulating the weapon in a way that is terrible for proper use as a weapon, but functions as an improvised shield. S/he can't wield the weapon effectively while using the striking Martial Arts, but s/he has found a way to keep the weapon useful during that time.

So you only miss out on Martial Arts when you are using the kensei weapon in a way that can be construed as wielding a weapon. Otherwise, you can carry around a greatsword in one hand, a pike in the other, and kicking people's faces in with Martial Arts. Hooray!

I agree with everything you're saying, but it doesn't detract from the fact that Kensei features don't actually work with the core Monk features.

[Malifice]

IF, and this is a big if... IF Kensei weapons are also Monk weapons, then Monks can seemingly get ridiculous.

Seemingly.

My question is, when compared to say, a raging Barbarian, how does it compare? Reckless Attack VS Stunning Strike. GWM.

Someone much smarter than myself can lay out the numbers, right?

Calm down mate. You keep trying to assert a GWM monk is nuts.

Compare a core Fighter 1/ Monk 5. He can already happily make two GWM greatsword attacks per round [Greatsword + GWM + extra attack] and then use his bonus action to either [cleave with GWM] or [flurry] - albeit only dealing 1+str damage with his unarmed attacks via flurry as his martial arts feature is 'switched off'... and spam stunning fist on each strike he lands.

And thats core. You can do it as a core Monk 5 (Vuman with weapon master and GWM feats) if you really want to.

You use the attack action, make 2 GWM Greatsword attacks, and then flurry of blows as your bonus action attacking twice more (although each attack deals only 1+Str). Spam Stunning strike on each one that lands.

The Kensai doesnt change that.

My problem with the Kensai as written is that its... well poorly written and clunky.

[jaappleton]

Calm down mate. You keep trying to assert a GWM monk is nuts.

Compare a core Fighter 1/ Monk 5. He can already happily make two GWM greatsword attacks per round [Greatsword + GWM + extra attack] and then use his bonus action to either [cleave with GWM] or [flurry] - albeit only dealing 1+str damage with his unarmed attacks via flurry as his martial arts feature is 'switched off'... and spam stunning fist on each strike he lands.

And thats core. You can do it as a core Monk 5 (Vuman with weapon master and GWM feats) if you really want to.

The Kensai doesnt change that.

My problem with the Kensai as written is that its... well poorly written and clunky.

You're misunderstanding me. While I love the idea of playing a GWM using Monk, using pure Dexterity, having high Initiative, Evasion, Stunning Strike...

I'm curious to see just HOW good it is. Is it worse than I actually think? Am I missing something?

[Malifice]

You're misunderstanding me. While I love the idea of playing a GWM using Monk, using pure Dexterity, having high Initiative, Evasion, Stunning Strike...

You cant rely on pure dexterity as a Kensai.

Any time you attack with one of your Kensai weapons you lose access to martial arts class feature.

Meaning your other attacks with unarmed strikes and monk weapons lose the [switch Dex for Str] and [replace the damage with the better damage die] and [you can also make a bonus action attack].

So while a Greatsword Kensai 5 can attack with a greatsword with Dex (twice) he cant use his bonus action to make a martial arts attack, and even if he could, those unarmed strikes would be running off Strength and would deal only 1 point of damage.

He could use his bonus action to either add 1d4 damage to critters he struck that round, OR to flurry of blows (however those unarmed strikes via flurry of blows deal only 1 point of damage, and run off strength because his martial arts class feature is lost to him this turn).

Of course, a normal core Monk 5 can do exactly the same thing (presuming he took Weapon master feat) however he would have to use Str for all the attacks, and doesnt get access to the +1d4 damamge ability. Of course, he'd also be an OHM so his two flurry attacks would be knocking you prone and stuff (despite doing low damage).

Its... clunky. Youre better off as a core monk almost.

[RickAllison]

I agree with everything you're saying, but it doesn't detract from the fact that Kensei features don't actually work with the core Monk features.

In what way? Martial Arts is covered by having three different style to choose from: full-on kensei weapons (achieves similar goals as Martial Arts with significant boosts at the cost of some features), full-on normal Monk with an AC boost, and a hybrid style with the shortsword that lets you combine everything! It has no less synergy with the base monk through that ability than a Long Death monk having the fear effect, it just adds options. So what other ways does the Kensei not work with the base monk? From what I've been seeing, it has fantastic synergy as it strongly meshes with certain abilities (archery bonuses combined with the mobility of the monk and Deflect Arrows, reach weapons for even more effective hit-and-run combat, etc.) and works just as well with the others as any other archetype. Heck, Sun Soul monks don't even bother with making their abilities compatible with Martial Arts at all!

[MinotaurWarrior]

Yeah this unearthed arcana is complete ****. The Tranquility cannibalizes features from open hand and paladin in a role-play package that is more restrictive than 3.5 Paladins. It's obviously inspired by the Book of Exaulted Deeds but still restrictive role-play is one thing I'm glad got cut from 3.5. Overall this archtype feels like a DNDwiki class, maybe that's a bit harsh but still.

Nobody ever really cared about OH 6 & 11 features. They're mostly ribbons. I do hate this healing trend, though. OHT is still great, and quivering palm is still amazing.


And the Kensai is a munchkin's paradise combined with weird rule interactions that is a headache for a DM. Seriously people give the avatar monk crap because it competes for a resource that the regular monk uses whereas Kensai can easily just shut down all of the features that monks normally get. I agree that the avatar monk is too expensive (I use a homebrew, this one https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1pdYIcfHauwNDM2My1XeWFYSDA/view) but still the amount of headscratching design decisions behind kensai is making me feel like I have lice.

It's a little OP, but I wouldn't call it a munchkin's paradise. Compare these to the UA cleric domains.

[Vogonjeltz]

No Drunken Master :(

Still the Kensai seems...somewhat ok, as it adds the potential for a monk to use the more powerful kinds of magic weapons and reach weapons if they like.

And i suppose some version of the peace monk probably should have been seen coming from BoED in 3.5

[Malifice]

For mine the Kensai ability needs to be reworded:

Select one martial weapon without the Heavy quality. This weapon is now treated as a Monk weapon for you. In addition, when you attack with the weapon you chose with this ability, you may replace the weapon damage die with 1d10. At 11th level in this class, the damage die increases to 2d6. At 17th level in this class it increases to 2d8.

Remember, a 3rd level Monk is already using a Staff or Spear for [1d8 + Str or Dex damage] when he uses the Attack action. This ability just bumps that damage die to 1d10 (instead of the cool OMH status effects, so its arguably suboptimal compared to the OHM; see below). It also removes problems the Dex + Heavy weapon and with the Monk weapon/ Kensai weapon/ martial arts interaction. It also adresses a problem with the Monk by increasing mid and late level DPR.

Due to the fact this only grants a slight increase to damage, I'd also allow a Kensai at 3rd to select a Fighter F/S selected from Dueling, Great weapon style, Archery or a new F/S called 'Paired weapon Kata' that lets you add +1 to your AC when you wield two Monk weapons at once and are not wearing armor or using a shield.

Bang presto. Dual weilding Kensai (+1 AC, Damage increase from 1d8 to 1d10), single weapon one handed Kensai (+2 damage, increase from 1d8 to 1d10), two handed Kensai (1d8 to 1d10, re-roll 1 and 2 - gets better as the damage die increases with level to multiple die), and Zen archers (+2 to hit, 1d10 ranged damage, shoot and move and flurry to the face) are a thing.

[Malifice]

Importantly the above changes dont outstrip the fighter.

When your damage die increase to 2d6 at 11th level, the Fighter is getting 3 attacks per action.

Kensai Monk 11 get 2 x 2d6 attacks and 1 x 1d8 damage attack. He can flurry for an extra 1d8 attack (for 1 Ki), and lay stun smackdowns if needed (for more Ki). It all runs of Dex or Str. GWS only applies to his weapon attacks, and not to his unarmed attacks.

Freddy the GWM fighter 11 is getting 3 X 2d6 damage attacks, plus action surge 1/ short rest for 3 more attacks, and can tack on d10 sup die on top 5 times per short rest. He also has access to at will GWM damage spike (and its bonus action attack), which his Kensai Monk buddy doesnt. He's locked into Strength. GWS applies to all damage dice (and Sup dice) he rolls.

[Vogonjeltz]

For mine the Kensai ability needs to be reworded:

Select one martial weapon without the Heavy quality. This weapon is now treated as a Monk weapon for you. In addition, when you attack with the weapon you chose with this ability, you may replace the weapon damage die with 1d10. At 11th level in this class, the damage die increases to 2d6. At 17th level in this class it increases to 2d8.

Remember, a 3rd level Monk is already using a Staff or Spear for [1d8 + Str or Dex damage] when he uses the Attack action. This ability just bumps that damage die to 1d10 (instead of the cool OMH status effects, so its arguably suboptimal compared to the OHM; see below). It also removes problems the Dex + Heavy weapon and with the Monk weapon/ Kensai weapon/ martial arts interaction. It also adresses a problem with the Monk by increasing mid and late level DPR.

Due to the fact this only grants a slight increase to damage, I'd also allow a Kensai at 3rd to select a Fighter F/S selected from Dueling, Great weapon style, Archery or a new F/S called 'Paired weapon Kata' that lets you add +1 to your AC when you wield two Monk weapons at once and are not wearing armor or using a shield.

Bang presto. Dual weilding Kensai (+1 AC, Damage increase from 1d8 to 1d10), single weapon one handed Kensai (+2 damage, increase from 1d8 to 1d10), two handed Kensai (1d8 to 1d10, re-roll 1 and 2 - gets better as the damage die increases with level to multiple die), and Zen archers (+2 to hit, 1d10 ranged damage, shoot and move and flurry to the face) are a thing.

Strictly speaking, the holding of a weapon isn't the same as wielding of a weapon. So a kensai could hold a bow, or wield it. And being a Kensei would allow the Monk to deal their Monk damage die at range with, for example, a longbow, and use the bonus action to deal +1d4 damage per target hit (normally the monk has no easy bonus action for all ranged attacks) or if the monk is in close range they could just use unarmed attacks while holding but not wielding the bow and get +2 AC out of it. Very versatile.

The feature appears carefully tailored to require the use of either the kensai or unarmed strikes in a round, but not both.

[Malifice]

Strictly speaking, the holding of a weapon isn't the same as wielding of a weapon. So a kensai could hold a bow, or wield it. And being a Kensei would allow the Monk to deal their Monk damage die at range with, for example, a longbow, and use the bonus action to deal +1d4 damage per target hit (normally the monk has no easy bonus action for all ranged attacks) or if the monk is in close range they could just use unarmed attacks while holding but not wielding the bow and get +2 AC out of it. Very versatile.

I doubt it.

If youre using a weapon to get +2 to AC, you're wielding it (presumably by parrying attacks) just as much as if you were using it to deal damage.

[Pex]

Kensai Monks will love 5th level when they get Extra Attack. One attack with their weapon. One attack with their unarmed strike. +2 AC.

With bias, I'm not liking Tranquility Monks having a better "Lay On Hands" than Paladin, double the healing power.

[Malifice]

Note how the Monk/ Kensai in my proposed changes can also use a whip (Kusuri Gama/ length of chain/ bladed scarf, or whatever you want to fluff it as) for reach.

He cant use heavy weapons, but that only rules out polearms (and he can refluff his spear to be a naginata or whatever) and greatswords, mauls, and greataxes (not really striking me as martial arts weapons) and longbows (but it doesnt really matter as his shortbow damage is 1d10 and scaling up anyway).

It does make the whip strictly speaking the best weapon, and technically also allows the lance.

[Malifice]

Kensai Monks will love 5th level when they get Extra Attack. One attack with their weapon. One attack with their unarmed strike. +2 AC.

That runs off strength, and only deals 1 point of damage.

[Talamare]

Kensai Monks will love 5th level when they get Extra Attack. One attack with their weapon. One attack with their unarmed strike. +2 AC.

With bias, I'm not liking Tranquility Monks having a better "Lay On Hands" than Paladin, double the healing power.

I'm guessing because they don't get spells.

Paladin + Spells will still out heal this

Overall, it's just uninspired

[RickAllison]

I doubt it.

If youre using a weapon to get +2 to AC, you're wielding it (presumably by parrying attacks) just as much as if you were using it to deal damage.

Wielding from Merriam-Webster: "to handle (as a tool) especially effectively <wield a broom>". So for common English, wielding is specifically about using it effectively as a tool. Well if you aren't using the great sword or whatever as a weapon, you aren't wielding it in that context. You may wield it in a different way (say as a rallying tool/banner if it is a famous weapon, or as a crowbar) and that might present some difficulties, but simply holding it in your hand without using it is not using it as a tool or effectively.

You can't claim that gaining the +2 AC from it is wielding it, since the condition for getting the boost while using Martial Arts (not wielding a non-monk weapon, but holding it) is still met. The ability cannot indicate it is now being wielded because that would apply even to greatswords, which require two hands to wield. Since those cannot be wielded, and the ability allows for their use, and no mention is made of it being concerned wielding or using it, the only logical conclusion is that it doesn't count as wielding. If it did, it would have some odd combinations...

[Malifice]

Wielding from Merriam-Webster: "to handle (as a tool) especially effectively <wield a broom>". So for common English, wielding is specifically about using it effectively as a tool. Well if you aren't using the great sword or whatever as a weapon, you aren't wielding it in that context. You may wield it in a different way (say as a rallying tool/banner if it is a famous weapon, or as a crowbar) and that might present some difficulties, but simply holding it in your hand without using it is not using it as a tool or effectively.

You can't claim that gaining the +2 AC from it is wielding it, since the condition for getting the boost while using Martial Arts (not wielding a non-monk weapon, but holding it) is still met. The ability cannot indicate it is now being wielded because that would apply even to greatswords, which require two hands to wield. Since those cannot be wielded, and the ability allows for their use, and no mention is made of it being concerned wielding or using it, the only logical conclusion is that it doesn't count as wielding. If it did, it would have some odd combinations...

I get want you're saying but it amounts to getting +2 to AC for not welding a weapon, and just holding it limply.

I'm not sure I agree with that interpretation and even if I did, it'd really clunky and poorly written.

[Malifice]

Here is my take at the Kensai:

Path of the Kensei (3rd level):

When you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you learn to extend your knowledge of the martial arts beyond the standard array of monk weapons.

Select one martial or simple weapon without the Heavy quality, other than the lance. This weapon is now treated as a Monk weapon for you. In addition, when you attack with the weapon you chose with this ability, you may replace the weapon damage die with 1d10 unless the weapon also has the reach quality. At 11th level in this class, the increased damage die increases to 2d6. At 17th level in this class it increases to 2d8.

In addition chose one of the following options:

1) Fighting style: Select one of the Archery, Dueling or Great weapon fighting styles.
2) Dual weapon kata: When you are not wearing armor or using a shield, and wield two Monk weapons at the same time, you gain +1 to AC.

One with the Blade (6th level)

Retain the magic weapons ability.

Remove Precise strike, and add the ability to perform a 'Weapon Kata' or 'Stare down' as an action (or pulling your attack at the last second, however you want to fluff it) at a single target that can see you within 60' that forces a [DC 8+Wis+Prof] save that frightens the target (the target can re-roll the save at the end of each turn to end the condition, becoming immune for 24 hours on a save).

Sharpen the Blade (11th level)

Replace with a variant of the Unnerring accuracy ability:

You may spend 1 Ki point before making an attack with a monk weapon to make the attack with advantage to the attack roll.

Unnerring accuracy (17th level)

Replace with the Deadly strike ability:

When you use your Unnerring accuracy ability, and both attack rolls would hit your target, the attack is a critical hit.

Thoughts?

[Foxhound438]

Here is my take at the Kensai:

...
Thoughts?

it's just a completely different thing now. Why? why bother? what's so scary about a class that can get advantage and make things practically do nothing on their turn while dealing power attack damage?

Are you this afraid of bear barbarians too?

[longshotist]

I am livid about the Tranquility Lay on Hands. That is easily TRIPLE as good as the Paladin Lay on Hands. You get DOUBLE the pool AND you can use it as PART of a bonus action, where-as Paladins require the entire action.

I'm honestly surprised they didn't add a sub-class with a pet that's 3x as powerful/useful as the Ranger Beast Master, or a sub-class with raging that puts the Barbarian's rage to shame.

Absolutely ridiculous.

It's somewhat different though since lay on hands is an inherent paladin ability, whereas the tranquility monk is the chosen path that focuses on things like the healing. If there were a healer paladin oath, that would be comparing apples to apples.

[djreynolds]

You can hold a greatsword in two hands and "kick" someone, that still is an unarmed strike?

Your unarmed strike could be a head butt, it doesn't have to be a fist?

I think this archetype is begging to use GWM.

[Malifice]

it's just a completely different thing now. Why? why bother? what's so scary about a class that can get advantage and make things practically do nothing on their turn while dealing power attack damage?

Dude a standard OH Monk 5 can do just this via core rules, and can do it better than the Kensai.

At 1st level the OH Monk selects weapon master 9Greatsword. At 4th he selects GWM.

He makes two greatsword attacks [attack action] using GWM if he wants, spamming stunning strike on each attack.

He then uses flurry of blows, dealing [1+Str] damage per hit, and spamming OHM and Stunning strike again per hit.

Its no difference to the Kensai. The Kensai can forgo the 2 x [1+Str] damage flurry attacks, and instead spam +1d4 damage to anyone he hit with the Sword as his bonus action. He doesnt get to spam OHMs special status effects with his flurry if he chooses that option though.

Thats the only difference.

[RickAllison]

I get want you're saying but it amounts to getting +2 to AC for not welding a weapon, and just holding it limply.

I'm not sure I agree with that interpretation and even if I did, it'd really clunky and poorly written.

I don't think it is about holding it limply, and I explained how it could be done up-thread. I will clarify why it makes sense in-character:

1) The kensei monk has trained to use a halberd, a longbow, and a blowgun as his weapons. He loves using his weapons, but he acknowledges that the styles he uses for those are incompatible with those he trained with at the monastery, and his monastery's style is more effective in certain scenarios.

2) The monk first alternates between the two forms, choosing weapons or fists depending on which seemed more effective at the time. This works, but he notices that his weapon is just hanging there, dead-weight. He can compensate for it because they are natural to him, an extension of his body, but he feels like he isn't living up to his full martial potential.

3) He experiments with combining the two for attacking, but it simply was not working well, he could not adjust rapidly enough to justify it. In one sparring match, however, he habitually went to deflect a punch and noticed that he had actually used the blowgun to deflect instead of his hand.

4) He experiments with this and finds that while he can't bring the weapons to bear for attacking with his monastery's style, he can use them as an extension of his body to more fluidly defend. His blowgun acts like an extension of his arm, deflecting more efficiently by keeping central leverage. His longbow was found to be quite effective at catching the opponent's crossguards, spikes, and other protrusions. His halberd, however was his favorite for defense; he would place it where the enemy would trip and miss as they struck, or as a stand for jumping over an attack, and sometimes spin around it to catch the enemy on the recovery. The key to combining the styles wasn't to incorporate the maneuvers from his Kensei training, but to instead take what he learned of that style and use it to accentuate the striking of his monastery's forms through defense.

There, an in-character story explaining how a Kensei monk has learned to keep his/her weapon productive while not actively using it.

[djreynolds]

What's even cooler, is grabbing a level of barbarian first for his unarmored defense and leaving wisdom where-ever, max out dex and con... maybe even just grab the ancestor archetype for flavor.

This could be a very cool class to play.

Heck you could even grab 3 of Samurai archetype also.

You can kick as martial arts

[Foxhound438]

Dude a standard OH Monk 5 can do just this via core rules, and can do it better than the Kensai.

Can it though, when you need 4 high stats to be effective?

[Malifice]

Can it though, when you need 4 high stats to be effective?

Your Kensai is going to dump Str?

His flurry attacks run off Str during any round he's also attacking with his weapon.

S 15 (16) +1 Weapon master
D 13 (14) +1 Vuman
C 12
I 8
W 15 (16) +1 Vuman
Ch 8

OHM 5 Makes 4 attacks; 2 with the Greatsword (using GWM) and each spamming stunning strike, and then two with his fists (dealing 4 damage per hit and triggering OHM status effects).

The OHM deals more damage than the Kensai, plus he gets to knock his target prone or push him back.

The difference between the two is negligble, and both traditions lose access to martial arts as soon as they pick up a Katana or a Jian.

Its a poorly worded and confusing Monastic tradition. Which is a pity because I really wanted it to work.

I wanted a Wushu/ Wuxia [Jian + unarmed] or Kensai [Katana + unarmed] Monk, and instead I got a class that cant use martial arts or unarmed strikes when its using its chosen weapon.

[Malifice]

What's even cooler, is grabbing a level of barbarian first for his unarmored defense and leaving wisdom where-ever, max out dex and con... maybe even just grab the ancestor archetype for flavor.

This could be a very cool class to play.

Heck you could even grab 3 of Samurai archetype also.

You can kick as martial arts

You cant use martial arts when using your Kensai weapon.

[Foxhound438]

Your Kensai is going to dump Str?


yes.

you don't care about the flurry. You'd rather have decent AC and HP. Save ki points for other things.

[djreynolds]

You cant use martial arts when using your Kensai weapon.

Help me, I may be confused.

I have some scenarios, if you don't mind.

At 5th level I can swing with a greatsword and then punch or kick, right?

I could punch/kick, use a Ki to stun and then pummel them with a maul and... use a KI for patient defense?

And with multiple attacks, for the +2 AC, it did not state when the unarmed strike has to happen in regards to having 2 attacks, you could punch/kick and sword strike?

Very nice as it might... even out the negative aspect of reckless attack... if you took barbarian.

[Malifice]

yes.

you don't care about the flurry. You'd rather have decent AC and HP. Save ki points for other things.

Ok so you dont use flurry. Instead of 4 chances per round to stun your target, you get 2.

And as long as you wield your Kensai weapon (presuming you dumped Str) your unarmed strikes deal 0 damage.

[Malifice]

Help me, I may be confused.

I have some scenarios, if you don't mind.

At 5th level I can swing with a greatsword and then punch or kick, right?

Yes, but so can an OHM or a Shadow monk or an Elements Monk. They'd need proficiency in the Greatsword (via Weapon master if MCing isnt allowed).


I could punch/kick, use a Ki to stun and then pummel them with a maul and... use a KI for patient defense?

If you're using a greatsword as your Kensai weapon, you lose access to your martial arts class feature. The greatsword is not a monk weapon, and the Kensai class doesnt change this.

So your unarmed attacks deal 1+Str damage, you lose access to your bonus action martial arts attack, and you have to use Str to hit with your unarmed attacks.

[Malifice]

yes.

you don't care about the flurry. You'd rather have decent AC and HP. Save ki points for other things.

Every time you use the ability to gain +2 AC you have to have made an unarmed attack on your turn.

If you dump Str to 8 and Pimp Dex, your unarmed attacks deal 0 damage (if you make them while wielding your Kensai weapon).

You have to stop weilding your Kensai weapon in order for you to be able to use Dex with your unarmed strikes, and to benefit from the increased martial arts damage dice.

At which point, its arguable that you dont get the +2 to AC because you're no longer using the weapon.

At a minimum, to claim the +2 AC on a round you wield your Kensai weapon, a Kensai PC that has dumped Str to 8 also needs to make a (Str based) unarmed attack dealing 0 damage.

Which is a crap game mechanic at best.

[djreynolds]

I'm looking at the PDF, I hope this helps

I really want to be able to stun someone, and then chomp them with a great sword

Path of the Kensei
When you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you
learn to extend your knowledge of the martial
arts beyond the standard array of monk
weapons.

You gain the following benefits:
• You gain proficiency with three martial
weapons of your choice. A martial weapon is
considered a kensei weapon for you if you’re
proficient with it.

• Whenever you wield a kensei weapon, you
choose whether to use Dexterity or Strength
for the attack and damage rolls of the weapon,
and you choose whether to use your Martial
Arts damage die in place of the weapon’s
damage die.

• When you take the Attack action on your turn
and hit a target with a kensei weapon, you can
use a bonus action to pummel the target,
dealing an additional 1d4 bludgeoning damage
to that target and to any other target you hit
with the weapon as part of the Attack.

• If you make an unarmed strike as part of the
Attack action on your turn and are holding a
kensei weapon, you can use that weapon to
defend yourself. You gain a +2 bonus to AC
until the start of your next turn while you are
not incapacitated and the weapon is in your
hand.

[RickAllison]

Ok so you dont use flurry. Instead of 4 chances per round to stun your target, you get 2.

And as long as you wield your Kensai weapon (presuming you dumped Str) your unarmed strikes deal 0 damage.

Or instead, s/he just waits until he would actually want to use Stunning Strike and just chooses not to use his/her Kensai weapon that round. Don't use it for attacking and you are just as adept at using unarmed strikes as the Sun Soul, the Long Death, or the Shadow, but you then get a +2 AC. So s/he gets to use his two greatsword attacks for most rounds, but can break out the heavy stunning through four unarmed attacks just like a base monk while having a higher AC. S/he gets to conserve his/her ki or blow it when appropriate, but has a stronger base to fall back on. And gets to focus on 1 fewer ability to boot.

EDIT: Oh my gosh, Malifice, there is not a question on being able to use Martial Arts if you aren't actively using a kensei weapon, because holding != wielding. And let me show you why it doesn't work:


From the lance in the PHB, "Also, a lance requires two hands to wield when you aren't mounted." Okay, a lance specifically refers to wielding, the relevant term, has a requirement for wielding, and it is a martial weapon so it is relevant.
Kensei monk picks up the lance. He is proficient with the lance and so has it as a kensei weapon.
The +2 to AC requires holding a kensei weapon. Is the monk holding the lance? Yes, by all English language standards, he is in fact holding said lance in his one hand.
Martial Arts shuts off if the monk wields a non-monk weapon. Is the monk wielding the lance? He can't be, we know it because he is only using one hand to hold it and a lance requires two hands to wield when not mounted. We have very explicit rules now stating that he is NOT wielding the lance that is a kensei weapon he is holding.
As it has been established that the monk is holding a kensei weapon in his hand, but is not wielding it because he, by the rules, cannot wield it, the monk gets a +2 to AC when he makes his unarmed strikes that have the full benefit of the Martial Arts ability.
This chain of logic has shown that it is possible to hold a weapon, but not be wielding it.
By extension of the definitions supplied by the PHB and the English language, other potential kensei weapons can also be held, but not wielded.


There is no debate. The rules explicitly allow for a weapon to be held, but not wielded.

[djreynolds]

I think any weapon is now whatever the kensai wants in terms of dex or str, and can use which ever damage is higher.

I don't think this takes away your martial art usage, but I leave it to you learned forum members

[Malifice]

Or instead, s/he just waits until he would actually want to use Stunning Strike and just chooses not to use his/her Kensai weapon that round..

Which is a silly, overly complex, confusing and pointless mechanic.

In order to be an effective Kensai, you have to forgo using all of your archetypes abilities [and your weapon] for a round and play like a monk who doesnt use weapons?

And what about Zen archer Kensais? Shoot, Shoot (extra attack) and then... what? They cant use flurry (pointless, deal 0 damage and relies on Str even if there was something near them to punch), they cant use stunning strike at range (melee weapon attacks only), they cant use martial arts (bow is not a monk weapon) and the longbow deals more (or as much) damage as martial arts die till 17th level anyway.

Its totally useless for them.

Just make the weapon a monk weapon. Done.

[djreynolds]

I think these 3 martial weapons are just treated as monk weapons.

I'm seeing lots of pinwheels and sweeping mauls

[Malifice]

I think any weapon is now whatever the kensai wants in terms of dex or str, and can use which ever damage is higher.

I don't think this takes away your martial art usage, but I leave it to you learned forum members

Martial Arts:

At 1st level, your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use unarmed strikes and monk weapons, which are shortswords and any simple melee weapons that don’t have the two-handed or heavy property. You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only monk weapons and you aren't wearing armor or wielding a shield:

A greatsword is not a monk weapon (not even for a Kensai).

Kensais can use Dex with them, and can substitute their martial arts dice for the damage with them, but they dont become monk weapons.

Martial arts becomes unavailable the instant a Kensai starts using his Katana or Jian.

[Malifice]

I'm looking at the PDF, I hope this helps

I really want to be able to stun someone, and then chomp them with a great sword


Take 5 levels in core Monk.

Stunning strike is usable with any melee weapon attack.

Done.

[djreynolds]

Take 5 levels in core Monk.

Stunning strike is usable with any melee weapon attack.

Done.

Very true.

Path of the Kensei
When you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you
learn to extend your knowledge of the martial
arts beyond the standard array of monk
weapons.

You gain the following benefits:
• You gain proficiency with three martial
weapons of your choice. A martial weapon is
considered a kensei weapon for you if you’re
proficient with it.

I think the kensai weapon is monk weapon, I would limit it to those three

[Malifice]

Very true.

Path of the Kensei
When you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you
learn to extend your knowledge of the martial
arts beyond the standard array of monk
weapons.

You gain the following benefits:
• You gain proficiency with three martial
weapons of your choice. A martial weapon is
considered a kensei weapon for you if you’re
proficient with it.

I think the kensai weapon is monk weapon, I would limit it to those three

Nope. Kensai weapons are not Monk weapons.

If they were, the ability would just say so (this would render the next paragraph obsolete as well, as you always use your M-Arts damage die and your choice of Dex/Str with Monk weapons).

Just make them Monk weapons.

The designers were obviously wary of [greatsword + unarmed bonus action attack] each round from 3rd level.

The simple solution is to limit the damage of the weapon to 1d10 (but scaling it as the class increases in level). A 3rd level OHM monk with a spear or staff is dealing [1d8 + bonus action martial arts attack] every round in any event so its a no brainer.

Its simpler, easier to understand and rather than limiiting the Kensai, expands the number of weapons he can use (it increases the options) instead of having every monastary suddenly spitting out monks with claymores and the GWM feat.

[djreynolds]

Nope. Kensai weapons are not Monk weapons.

If they were, the ability would just say so (this would render the next paragraph obsolete as well, as you always use your M-Arts damage die and your choice of Dex/Str with Monk weapons).

Just make them Monk weapons.

The designers were obviously wary of [greatsword + unarmed bonus action attack] each round from 3rd level.

The simple solution is to limit the damage of the weapon to 1d10 (but scaling it as the class increases in level). A 3rd level OHM monk with a spear or staff is dealing [1d8 + bonus action martial arts attack] every round in any event so its a no brainer.

Its simpler, easier to understand and rather than limiiting the Kensai, expands the number of weapons he can use (it increases the options) instead of having every monastary suddenly spitting out monks with claymores and the GWM feat.

That's a fair interpretation, though I now I have an image of a monk cloaked in..... flannel robes.

I'm not sure if I should thank you for that image, it is funny though

[MeeposFire]

One thing I am noticing on this board lately is that a lot of people have a knee jerk reaction of "overpowered" for almost everything.

I am still crunching the stats but just the way the boards are talking it is reminding me more of back in the day when the 3.5 boards were saying that the favored soul was overpowered compared to the cleric when it first came out. In case you do not know the favored soul is considered to be weaker than the cleric now and has been for a while.



Take a bit to calm down and really think about this. Just because it does something new, does it in a new way, allows you to do something that could be done before but in a new way (this really applies to a kensai I had an entire thread devoted to a heavy armor monk who wielded heavy weapons which sounded a lot like the kensai except I had to stick with high str rather than dex but in the end high dex was not that big of a loss), and lastly remember that class balance is a range and you need to think of it that way.


As for the healing monk I am really surprised that so many people are so up in arms about it being a better healer than LoH with a paladin. For all the groups I have seen that ability on a paladin was always forgettable and monks previously always had a version of it (though only able to heal themselves oddly) so to me this does not seem to be a big deal. Not my type of character mind you but not a big deal.

[Malifice]

That's a fair interpretation, though I now I have an image of a monk cloaked in..... flannel robes.

I'm not sure if I should thank you for that image, it is funny though

Consider:

A Naginata [spear] using OHM Monk 3 [Str 8, Dex 16] deals [1d8+3] and [1d4+3] with martial arts. If he flurries he instead deals 2 x [1d4+3] damage attacks in addition to his [1d8+3] naginata attack. All attacks use Dex (as does AC etc).

Both flurry attacks have a chance of knocking his target prone, pushing it back or denying it reactions.

A Naginata [halberd] using Kensai Monk 3 [Str 8, Dex 16] deals [1d10+3] and cant use martial arts at all. Instead he can add 1d4 bludgeoning damage to his Naginata strike as a bonus action. If he doesnt add the +d4 bludgeoning damamge, and instead flurries as his bonus action, he deals 2 x [0] damage attacks that both use Str to hit in addition to his [1d10+3] dex based naginata attack.

The spear Naginata using Open Hand Monk is in all ways, better than the halberd Naginata using Kensai.

[Giant2005]

Although the RAI is obvious, do you think there is any wiggle-room in the RAW to have the +2 AC apply more than once if you are holding more than one Kensei weapon?

[Malifice]

Although the RAI is obvious, do you think there is any wiggle-room in the RAW to have the +2 AC apply more than once if you are holding more than one Kensei weapon?

My Marilith Kensai awaits the response with baited breath.

[RickAllison]

Although the RAI is obvious, do you think there is any wiggle-room in the RAW to have the +2 AC apply more than once if you are holding more than one Kensei weapon?

I don't think so. The way the paragraph is set up is that it sets up a dual-condition statement that seems to just care for the existence of the conditions rather than the magnitude. Actually with the way it is set up, the condition of have "a" kensei weapon held in hand could mean that holding multiple weapons would actually void the bonus entirely.

[Malifice]

Here is how I'm gonna run it:

Path of the Kensei (3rd level):

When you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you learn to extend your knowledge of the martial arts beyond the standard array of monk weapons.

Select one martial or simple weapon without the Heavy quality (other than the lance) to be your Kensai weapon. This weapon is now treated as a Monk weapon for you.

In addition, when you attack with your Kensai weapon, you may replace the weapon damage die with 1d10 unless the weapon also has the reach quality. At 11th level in this class, the increased damage die increases to 2d6. At 17th level in this class it increases to 2d8.

Finally, choose one of the following options:


1) Weapon master: Select one of the Dueling or Great weapon fighting styles. You learn this fighting style. In addition you can expend 1 point of ki to gain advantage on any checks or saves to avoid being disarmed of your weapon, or that targets your weapon.

2) Dual weapon kata: When you are not wearing armor or using a shield, and wield two Monk weapons at the same time, you gain +1 to your AC. When you use your flurry of blows attack, you can expend an additional point of ki and resolve one of the attacks with a monk weapon instead of an unarmed strike.

3) Zen archery: You must have selected a bow to use this option. You gain the Archery fighting style. In addition as a bonus action on your turn you can expend 2 points of Ki to take careful aim at a creature you can see that is within range of a ranged weapon you are weilding. Until the end of this turn, your succesful ranged attacks against this target ignore 3/4 and 1/2 cover and deals additional damage equal to 2 + half your Monk level.

One with your Weapon (6th level):

Magic weapons: Your attacks with monk weapons are treated as magical.

Stare down: As an action on your turn you can expend 1 point of Ki and attempt to stare down or otherwise seek to intimidate your target (pulling your attack at the last second, landing a close shot with a bow, staring your target down, a flourish of your blade etc). Choose a single target that can see you within 60'. That target must pass a [DC 8 + Wis + Prof] Wisdom save or be frightened of you. The target can re-roll the save at the end of each turn to end the condition, becoming immune to this ability for 24 hours on a save.

Un-erring Accuracy (11th level)

You may spend 1 Ki point before making an attack with a monk weapon to make the attack with advantage to the attack roll.

Deadly Strike (17th level)

When you use your Unnerring accuracy ability, and both attack rolls would hit your target, the attack is a critical hit.

I welcome any criticism or attempts to break it!

[Sianthus]

Honestly, RAW aside, it's very silly fluff wise for a monk to not be able to strike hard with his unarmed strikes just because he's holding a kensei weapon like some have being arguing for. (Aka 1 + Strength mod) Eg. a kensei monk holding a bow in melee range and he suddenly forgets how to punch or kick or throw properly just because he has a piece of wood/metal in his hand? That same thing he or she supposedly treats as an extension of his body and devoted his life to its study?

Imo, Kensei weapons should be just treated as monk weapons and be done with it. Sure that might open up some apparently OP combos with feats, but it's not as if other classes from official play tested materials don't have such powerful combinations as well.

I like theory crafting characters mechanically for effectiveness and all, but munchkins gonna munch. If a player is gonna use the kensei for maximum OMG damage to the detriment of the playing group's enjoyment (and only if it's a concrete detriment), then it's a local problem that is fixed by talking to the players.

Edit P. S. This is not to say we shouldn't try to clarify the awkward and unclear wording this (and all other UA) has though. That's a worthwhile endeavour!

[djreynolds]

With regards to the new Kensai UA. Are Kensei weapons considered Monk weapons as well? the wording is...weird.

Jeremy Crawford ‏@JeremyECrawford · 6 hours ago
The Martial Arts feature defines what a monk weapon is. Nothing else is a monk weapon unless a feature explicitly says otherwise. #DnD

Well this "officially" ruins my dreams of spin kicks and mauls... but so be it

Unearthed Arcana material isn't tuned for multiclassing. We make a class/subclass multiclass-ready if it's going to become official.

Really!!! 2 for 2. My dreams of a Scottish monk monastery are.... poof. No raging kensai

But still a cool archetype, IMO.

No one asked on twitter about short sword stuff, but I assume this weapon is the only weapon both kensai and monk

Thank you all for your patience, and for those of you who solved it prior to the tweet.... 250xp for beating the Sphinx's riddle.

[Giant2005]

Well this "officially" ruins my dreams of spin kicks and mauls... but so be it

You can still spin kick and maul - you don't even really need to be a Monk to do that. All it means is that you can't spin kick and maul without having enough Strength to actually hit things.

[djreynolds]

Its sad. I really wanted to be able to create some really cool combos.

Are these kensai weapons usable in armor?

[Malifice]

You can still spin kick and maul - you don't even really need to be a Monk to do that. All it means is that you can't spin kick and maul without having enough Strength to actually hit things.

And your kicks damage dice drops to 1 point.

Even if youre a 20th level Monk.

And you have to either forgo one of your two Maul attacks, or spend a point of Ki to flurry just to do it.

I mean you should just fluff the +1d4 B Kensai bonus action damage as you kicking.

It just doesnt feel right to me.

[djreynolds]

It is a good attempt from the UA.

The shortsword ends being a very good standby weapon, as it is both martial and monk.

I wonder if meshing together samurai and kensai could be worth it, more of concept than anything

[Malifice]

I mean seriously WoTC?

A 20th level Katana/ Jian (Dex based) Kensai does:

2 attacks (dealing 1d10+5) and uses his bonus action to add an extra 1d4 damage to anything he hits with either those two attacks.

Thats it.

He can 'power up' by spending Ki (and his bonus action) to get a +3 to hit and damage on round one (meaning he deals 1d10+8, and makes two attacks on that round). Then from round 2 onwards he can do +1d4. An ability only useful if your DM doesnt use magic loot.

Even worse is he only gets to make 2 stunning strikes per round.

His OHM buddy is using a [magic monk weapon] and making 3 (martial arts) or 4 (flurry) attacks each round dealing 1d10+5, knocking you around the place and prone with OHM special abilities, and having up to 4 attempts to stun you per round.

Plus for 3 Ki he gets to place a save or die/ take 10d10 damage status effect on you with one of those hits.

Youre seriously better off playing a OH Monk, and just refluffing your Spear as a Katana or Jian (and asking your DM to change the damage type to Slashing).

They were too scared of the 'Monk with heavy weapons using Dex and flurry' effect, and as a consequence the whole archetype sucks if you're trying to play 'to type'... unless you are a Monk who actually uses a heavy weapon (in which case, you're better off going a totally different class).

[ST By Night]

Looks interesting!

[diplomancer]

If kensai is a monk subset, doesnt that make kensai weapons a monk weapons subset?

[RickAllison]

If kensai is a monk subset, doesnt that make kensai weapons a monk weapons subset?

Nope. And Kensai wouldn't be a subset of a monk, but more like a bubble chart. A subset would denote that it is contained within the "set" that is the monk, but that isn't how 5e archetypes work. Even the Open Hand monk, the closest to a "subset" still has new things added that are outside of being a normal monk. It is entirely possible that we might eventually get a subset archetype, but none exist because the idea of "You're just a basic monk, but you are better at that basic stuff than the other monks" is kinda boring. Instead we get branching paths where not everything has to stack up perfectly.

Sun Soul monks don't have anything that goes with the base monk chassis, but instead gives solely new options that primarily replace the main monk abilities. Long Death adds new things as well, but it is designed to have you use your base monk abilities in conjunction with those. So far as can be told, it seems that Kensei is going the Sun Soul route of having something that replaces the primary combat method while still allowing access when desired.

[djreynolds]

Now combines with the samurai's fighting spirit, this could be flavorful and fun.

You could begin as a barbarian, who I have secretly used as my samurai chassis and had rage fluffed as Bushido, and use dex and con and just forgo much of the wisdom based stuff.

Now, does patient defense still work with the kensai weapon?

Coupled with a monk with using GWM, taking the dodge action after attacking... is potent IMO.

[Malifice]

If kensai is a monk subset, doesnt that make kensai weapons a monk weapons subset?

Not via RAW or RAI (sage advice).

Its a fantastic class idea, that has been poorly executed.

[Spiritchaser]

I know Multiclassing UA is a bit of a stretch, but after level 14 for con save a kensai can MC cleric and run sharpen AND bless. That's a persistent GWM with no ifs ands or buts.

I don't think kensai cleric is as strong as sorcadin, but looks pretty cool...

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Come to think of it, you're allowed to do stuff in between your two attacks, correct? So a Kensei could start with his greatsword sheathed, make an unarmed attack (using the attack action), use either the martial arts bonus action attack or flurry of blows (using his bonus action), then draw his sword, make an armed attack (using extra attack), and gain the +2 AC. Sure, he couldn't get both the +2 AC and the martial arts benefits on every turn (on a turn where he starts with the greatsword drawn, he must choose between them), but it's still a significant improvement. Could even be deliberate, given that IIRC there are a few Japanese schools of swordsmanship that have one sheathe during a fight.

[Zalabim]

I tried to only quote posts that needed correction, and it turns out they were all by the same person. Since I don't want to dedicate this whole post to one person, I'll just say wielding and holding are not the same thing, and it appears the wording is intentional.

I think it's interesting that Pummel encourages you to spread your attacks to two different targets, making this monk path want to fight more like a controller on the cheap, or use Flurry for striker-ing.

I think pummel could have some improvements with either higher level or Ki spending to more fully support archery or just not using unarmed strikes.

The Precise Strike feature is, maybe not a trap, but not impressive. At the most extreme end, you can spend your bonus action for +6 to hit while using great weapon master and sharpening with a greatsword and swing your disadvantaged hit chance from (.5*.5)=[.25] to (.8*.8)=[.64], for 39% of one attack's average damage, (39%*2d6+3+5+10)= 9.75 damage, once per rest. Right when you get it, if you aren't using GWM, it's worse than just using the pummel action you already have. If you are using GWM, you're giving up your chance to get an extra attack. It's a neat trick that doesn't push any envelopes.

I assume the sharpening ability at level 11 is to keep your Kensei weapons sufficiently stronger than your monk weapons and unarmed strikes, but I have to wonder if there isn't a better option.

The tranquility monk gets more lay on hands pool than the paladin, right now, because it can't also heal with spell slots like the paladin. Cast Aura of Vitality. Share a friendly chuckle with the paci-fist trying to copy you.

The way the path's sanctuary lasts and refreshes, it seems like you could start a fight with sanctuary, break it, and then recast it later on in the fight. That's something like second chances.

It leans really heavily on the "powerful level 17 feature" progression. Team up with a summoner to see it more reliably.

I have a party member who's playing a knowledge cleric like a pacifist already. He's a new player, so he probably won't see this unless I point it out.

I welcome any criticism or attempts to break it!

Ok. You've made a monk subpath that fights exactly like a normal monk but does more damage all the time at every level. This disregards the established power of monk subpath features. It looks like it misses the point of monks.

Let me demonstrate. At level 3, a monk can attack for 1d8+3 and 1d4+3 or 2d4+6 by flurrying. That's (13) or (18.5).

UA kensei can attack for 2d6+3 and 1d4 with pummel or 2d4+6 by flurrying. That's (12.5) or (21). The UA Kensei only does more damage while it spends Ki, not all the time, and that's only if you allow them to "take a hand off their greatsword and flurry" (I would, even for one-handed weapons, for the record.) It can also use Martial Arts whole holding its weapon for 2d4+6 (11) or just flurry for 3d4+9 (16.5) and enjoy the +2 AC.

Your homebrew Weapon Master does 1d10+5 and 1d4+3 or 2d4+6 by flurrying, so (16) or (21.5). It does more damage all the time. Your Dual Weapon Kata gets +1 AC all the time, but does 1d10+3 and 1d4+3 (14) or 2d4+6 flurrying (19.5) or 1d4+3 and 1d10+3 (22.5) by spending one more Ki. Your Zen Archery does 1d10+6 (11.5) by spending 2 ki, and then feels bad because you didn't make a subpath that supports archery.


All the rest of your path's features remain very Ki hungry. Unerring Accuracy overlaps with the advantage already provided by stunning strike, but you have to keep using it to benefit from the Deadly Strike final path ability. It looks like Deadly Strike+advantage is slightly more valuable than the one extra unarmed strike, so Ki priority would end up Stunning Strike > Unerring Accuracy for advantage > Flurry > Unerring Accuracy for Deadly Strike only. At some point, Zen Archery's sharpshooter knockoff becomes actually worth having, which is really the same problem as sharpshooter knockoff classic from last week's UA.

Right now, I think it's underpowered overall. You could reduce your Ki costs and bring it more in line. It's also balanced more heavily towards the low end. Normally monk paths have minor features at level 3, 6 and 11, and a stronger combat feature at level 17, while yours gets most of its benefits from its gradually improving level 3 feature with the other features being less important. That's not broken, and it's not a universal truth. Just different than the usual progression. Finally, the whole thing is uninteresting. It just does more damage. It doesn't enable different weapons, styles, tactics, or abilities than other monks. It has no identity. It does nothing new. It has no hook.

[jaappleton]

So after thoroughly reading the Kensei... I think it needs work. Not from the 'It's OP' or 'It looks OP but isn't' perspective. But from a 'This doesn't make sense' perspective.

A core Monk feature is Martial Arts, which grants unarmed strikes as bonus actions.

Kensei runs contrary to that, instead granted the ability to pummel for an additional 1d4. Which itself isn't bad, it's fine.

But the level 3 ability of the Kensei to grant +2 AC forces you to choose between utilizing your Kensei weapon... Which, y'know, is the core feature of the Archetype.... Or to utilize unarmed strikes. A core feature of the Monk. And either way, it must be done as part of the attack action. Not the martial arts unarmed strike of the bonus action.

It doesn't feel like they flow together. It seems to be the archetype and core class run contrary to eachother. At first, anyways.

So to actually fully utilize the lv3 Kensei feature of 'Hit with Kensei weapon, hit with unarmed strike, +2 to AC', you can't achieve that before lv5. Prior to lv5, it's strictly an either/or scenario.


NOTE: This assumes no Flurry of Blows
It's Kensei Weapon + 1d4 or Unarmed Strike + Bonus Action martial arts attack +2AC.
At 5th, you can Kensei Weapon x2 +1d4, or Kensei Weapon + Unarmed Strike + Unarmed Strike (bonus)

Correct?

It just seems like the lv3 feature isn't actually able to synergize with the core Monk features until lv5.

[Malifice]

lme demonstrate. At level 3, a monk can attack for 1d8+3 and 1d4+3 or 2d4+6 by flurrying. That's (13) or (18.5).

UA kensei can attack for 2d6+3 and 1d4 with pummel or 2d4+6 by flurrying.

The UA Kensai loses his martial arts dice (he loses access to his whole martial arts class feature) when using his Kensai weapon (unless its a shortsword). Those flurries only do 1 point of damage each, and only then if he didnt dump Strength (which he is forced to use for his flurry unarmed attacks, because only the martial arts feature lets him substitute dex with unarmed strikes, and he loses that ability whenever he uses his Kensai weapon).

Assuming he dumped Str and Pimped Dex, those unarmed flurries deal 0 damage each.

He could go the Strength route, but now he's much more MAD than the OH Monk above, and his AC likely suffers.


Your homebrew Weapon Master does 1d10+5 and 1d4+3 or 2d4+6 by flurrying, so (16) or (21.5). It does more damage all the time.

Its supposed to do slightly more damage than a level 3 OHM, due to the fact it doesnt get acess to the OHM [push/ trip] status effects on a flurry attack.

It sacrifices the OH Monk ability to impose status effects, for a slight (3 point) bump in damage per round (d8 to d10 and access to dueling F/S as the baseline)

[RickAllison]

So after thoroughly reading the Kensei... I think it needs work. Not from the 'It's OP' or 'It looks OP but isn't' perspective. But from a 'This doesn't make sense' perspective.

A core Monk feature is Martial Arts, which grants unarmed strikes as bonus actions.

Kensei runs contrary to that, instead granted the ability to pummel for an additional 1d4. Which itself isn't bad, it's fine.

But the level 3 ability of the Kensei to grant +2 AC forces you to choose between utilizing your Kensei weapon... Which, y'know, is the core feature of the Archetype.... Or to utilize unarmed strikes. A core feature of the Monk. And either way, it must be done as part of the attack action. Not the martial arts unarmed strike of the bonus action.

It doesn't feel like they flow together. It seems to be the archetype and core class run contrary to eachother. At first, anyways.

So to actually fully utilize the lv3 Kensei feature of 'Hit with Kensei weapon, hit with unarmed strike, +2 to AC', you can't achieve that before lv5. Prior to lv5, it's strictly an either/or scenario.


NOTE: This assumes no Flurry of Blows
It's Kensei Weapon + 1d4 or Unarmed Strike + Bonus Action martial arts attack +2AC.
At 5th, you can Kensei Weapon x2 +1d4, or Kensei Weapon + Unarmed Strike + Unarmed Strike (bonus)

Correct?

It just seems like the lv3 feature isn't actually able to synergize with the core Monk features until lv5.

Well, yeah. Sun Soul Monks literally cannot play nice with base monk features. If a Sun Soul uses their mini-blasts, they don't get to use the Martial Arts bonus action. If a Sun Soul uses unarmed strikes through Martial Arts, they don't get to use the bonus action mini-blasts. This is an archetype in an official resource that has no synergy with Martial Arts, and it is fine. That may very well be what is going on with the kensei, that you are not expected to use every part of that level 3 ability. It actually looks great now:

1) Be a kensei and use the full variety of martial weapons with all their benefits.
2) Be a monk and beat people up, but you get a bonus to defense from your skills with the unused weapon.
3) Use a shortsword and get everything. Literally. Every bonus for kensei weapons can be used with the shortsword while still functioning fine with Martial Arts.

Want to use them together? Go number three, they enabled it just for you! Want to be a full-on weapon monk? Go 1. Need to stun an NPC? The kensei can go switch between weaponmaster and striking martial artist every turn. No, you aren't supposed to be able to both use your heavy weapons with Dexterity AND get a defense bonus AND get four good attacks to stun with. But you can switch constantly!

[Carlos Barreto]

I mean seriously WoTC?

A 20th level Katana/ Jian (Dex based) Kensai does:

2 attacks (dealing 1d10+5) and uses his bonus action to add an extra 1d4 damage to anything he hits with either those two attacks.

Thats it.

He can 'power up' by spending Ki (and his bonus action) to get a +3 to hit and damage on round one (meaning he deals 1d10+8, and makes two attacks on that round). Then from round 2 onwards he can do +1d4. An ability only useful if your DM doesnt use magic loot.

Even worse is he only gets to make 2 stunning strikes per round.

His OHM buddy is using a [magic monk weapon] and making 3 (martial arts) or 4 (flurry) attacks each round dealing 1d10+5, knocking you around the place and prone with OHM special abilities, and having up to 4 attempts to stun you per round.

Plus for 3 Ki he gets to place a save or die/ take 10d10 damage status effect on you with one of those hits.

Youre seriously better off playing a OH Monk, and just refluffing your Spear as a Katana or Jian (and asking your DM to change the damage type to Slashing).

They were too scared of the 'Monk with heavy weapons using Dex and flurry' effect, and as a consequence the whole archetype sucks if you're trying to play 'to type'... unless you are a Monk who actually uses a heavy weapon (in which case, you're better off going a totally different class).

Pick the Great Weapon Master feat and you're fine. Yes, I know feats are a optional rule, but I believe it's safe to say that most tables allows it. After all, feats are core concepts since 3.X edition.

By the way, Kensai is a sort of "I use my Guan Dao (Polearm)/Masamune (Greatsword) as if it were a finess weapon, dancing around swiftly as I swing my big weapon with extra power (Great Weapon Master feat)".

Maybe some people out there think that combining Greatsword/Polearm with Dexterity for the -5/+10 is horribly broken. I don't think so. Sharpshooters allows the same damage bonus with the same stat, but it does from far away. It's a class feature from a unique monastic tradition. It's like the Open Hand monk, in the sense that both are heavily combat-oriented, but Kensai can deal more damage through Great Weapon Master while Open Hand is more tactical (Pushing, knocking down or denying his target's reaction with his Flurry of Blows).

[MrStabby]

I think a bit of synergy is good but not too much otherwise the class involves no choices. As long as you are choosing to do one thing over another depending on the circumstances you are making meaningful choices in the game. If all you do is work out the best thing to do every turn and keep spamming it then it can get pretty boring. Having to trade off offence for defence isn't a bug it is a feature.

[MrStabby]

Maybe some people out there think that combining Greatsword/Polearm with Dexterity for the -5/+10 is horribly broken. I don't think so. Sharpshooters allows the same damage bonus with the same stat, but it does from far away. It's a class feature from a unique monastic tradition. It's like the Open Hand monk, in the sense that both are heavily combat-oriented, but Kensai can deal more damage through Great Weapon Master while Open Hand is more tactical (Pushing, knocking down or denying his target's reaction with his Flurry of Blows).

The problem isn't damage, there are other classes that can do similar damage. it is the fact you can stick stunning strike at the end of it.

Also, for completeness SS doesn't give reaction attacks or bonus attacks as part of the feat.

[jaappleton]

Well, yeah. Sun Soul Monks literally cannot play nice with base monk features. If a Sun Soul uses their mini-blasts, they don't get to use the Martial Arts bonus action. If a Sun Soul uses unarmed strikes through Martial Arts, they don't get to use the bonus action mini-blasts. This is an archetype in an official resource that has no synergy with Martial Arts, and it is fine. That may very well be what is going on with the kensei, that you are not expected to use every part of that level 3 ability. It actually looks great now:

1) Be a kensei and use the full variety of martial weapons with all their benefits.
2) Be a monk and beat people up, but you get a bonus to defense from your skills with the unused weapon.
3) Use a shortsword and get everything. Literally. Every bonus for kensei weapons can be used with the shortsword while still functioning fine with Martial Arts.

Want to use them together? Go number three, they enabled it just for you! Want to be a full-on weapon monk? Go 1. Need to stun an NPC? The kensei can go switch between weaponmaster and striking martial artist every turn. No, you aren't supposed to be able to both use your heavy weapons with Dexterity AND get a defense bonus AND get four good attacks to stun with. But you can switch constantly!

But the short sword aspect doesn't actually work prior to lv5. You need to make an unarmed strike as part of the Attack action. Since you'll only have one singular attack with the attack action (Martial Arts and Flurry are both Bonus Actions), it is still an either/or choice.

And Short Sword, while it can be both a Kensei and Monk weapon, is... It doesn't seem to be taking full advantage of 'use any weapon with Dex or Strength'.

[Malifice]

So after thoroughly reading the Kensei... I think it needs work. Not from the 'It's OP' or 'It looks OP but isn't' perspective. But from a 'This doesn't make sense' perspective.

A core Monk feature is Martial Arts, which grants unarmed strikes as bonus actions.

Kensei runs contrary to that, instead granted the ability to pummel for an additional 1d4. Which itself isn't bad, it's fine.

But the level 3 ability of the Kensei to grant +2 AC forces you to choose between utilizing your Kensei weapon... Which, y'know, is the core feature of the Archetype.... Or to utilize unarmed strikes. A core feature of the Monk. And either way, it must be done as part of the attack action. Not the martial arts unarmed strike of the bonus action.

It doesn't feel like they flow together. It seems to be the archetype and core class run contrary to eachother. At first, anyways.

So to actually fully utilize the lv3 Kensei feature of 'Hit with Kensei weapon, hit with unarmed strike, +2 to AC', you can't achieve that before lv5. Prior to lv5, it's strictly an either/or scenario.


NOTE: This assumes no Flurry of Blows
It's Kensei Weapon + 1d4 or Unarmed Strike + Bonus Action martial arts attack +2AC.
At 5th, you can Kensei Weapon x2 +1d4, or Kensei Weapon + Unarmed Strike + Unarmed Strike (bonus)

Correct?

It just seems like the lv3 feature isn't actually able to synergize with the core Monk features until lv5.

The assumption is on your turn you either:

1) attack with the weapon, and use your bonus action to pummel, or
2) you fight like a normal monk, attacking with your fists and feet via the martial arts class feature and forgo using the weapon (and possibly make 1-2 extra attacks with martial arts or flurry) and the weapon just kinda... hangs at your side being 'held but not wielded' providing a +2 to AC on account of it just kind of being there (so you retain some benefit from your archetype).

Which is a really bad design choice. In order to make option 1 be in any way worthwhile, you basically have to be using a Heavy weapon and the GWM feat. It totally makes katana and jian using (or twin dragon swords or whatever) totally obsolete and suboptimal.

If your kensai isnt packing a scottish claymore, a sledgehammer or a greataxe, its a woeful archetype. And that bad class design. Both from a thematic POV (it fails to capture what we imagine when we think of the class) and from a design point of view.

I mean I see why they did it (they were worried about GWM, dex to hit and damage, plus flurries and so forth), but this isnt the way to do it. There are better ways to balance the features damage, while at the same time increasing options rather than channelling you into the one option.

All hypothetical builds to date feature a 2d6 heavy weapon. Because its self evident how crap the archetype is with any other weapon, seeing as the instant you use a weapon, your most important class feature (martial arts) gets shut down.

And of course option 2 sucks even more because the rest of your whole archetype is predicated on you attacking with your weapon nont having it hanging limply at your side. If you want to gain the +2 AC amd still do something on your turn, you basically have to forgo using your weapon, and your weapon is presumably why you took the damn archetype in the first place.

[jaappleton]

The assumption is you either:

1) attack with the weapon, and use your bonus action to pummel, or
2) you fight like a normal monk, attacking with your fists and feet via the martial arts class feature and forgo using the weapon (and possibly make 1-2 extra attacks with martial arts or flurry) and the weapon just kinda... hangs at your side being 'held but not wielded' providing a +2 to AC on account of it just kind of being there (so you retain some benefit from your archetype).

Which is a really bad design choice. In order to make option 1 be in any way worthwhile, you basically have to be using a Heavy weapon and the GWM feat. It totally makes katana and jian using (or twin dragon swords or whatever) totally obsolete and suboptimal.

If your kensai isnt packing a scottish claymore, its a woeful archetype. And that bad class design.

I mean I see why they did it (they were worried about GWM, dex to hit and damage, plus flurries and so forth), but this isnt the way to do it. There are better ways to balance the features damage, while at the same time increasing options rather than channelling you into the one option.

And of course option 2 sucks even more because the rest of your whole archetype is predicated on you attacking with your weapon nont having it hanging limply at your side. If you want to gain the +2 AC amd still do something on your turn, you basically have to forgo using your weapon, and your weapon is presumably why you took the damn archetype in the first place.

I think this is the first time in this topic we've been in total agreement with eachother. :smallbiggrin:

[Carlos Barreto]

The problem isn't damage, there are other classes that can do similar damage. it is the fact you can stick stunning strike at the end of it.

Also, for completeness SS doesn't give reaction attacks or bonus attacks as part of the feat.

Indeed. It gives you two other awesome features.
Anyway, I was talking about the +10 damage bonus with Dexterity.

About the Stunning Strike... Yes, that does make sense. You can gain advantage from up to three attacks if the first attack lands a stunning condition.

Kensai seems to be the kind of "I do big damage with big weapons" while the Open Hand is like "I do extra conditions when I go all out (Flurry)". At first glance, Kensai seems a little bit overpowered, but I'm not so convinced. I think it deserves more game test and less theorycraft.

Off-topic, I think that Open Hand Monks should have at level 3 a Fighting Style feature that boosts his Martial Art die to the next die (for example, turning a d4 into a d6), but only for unarmed strikes. It's basically a +1 (a bonus smaller than the Duelist Fighting Style), but you receive the bonus more often (up to four attacks). I think that would improve dramatically his OPEN HAND idea.

[Malifice]

Pick the Great Weapon Master feat and you're fine. Yes, I know feats are a optional rule, but I believe it's safe to say that most tables allows it. After all, feats are core concepts since 3.X edition.

Exactly. The only way to make it work is packing a polearm, claymore or great axe, and using a feat (which you dont get whole benefit from seeing as youre using your bonus action most rounds to pummel and not cleave).

Thats a bad design choice, and not what I envisage a Kensai to be.

If they instead locked the damage at 1d10 (scaling up with level), removed the heavy property and just made the thing a monk weapon then you could use any weapon. Suddenly twin dragon sword or nunchuck or bow or katana or spiked chain kensai are just as viable as tetsubo kensai.

The class could simply be an OHM that (thematically) uses a weapon in addition to fists, and (game design) does slightly higher DPR than the OH Monk (which is already on the low side), while missing out on the status effects, healing, sanctuary, and quivering palm abilities of the OHM.

It also removes a lot of unexpected interactions between martial arts, dec to hit and damage, finesse weapons, GWM and bonus action flurry attacks they were obviously so worried about when writing the class.


By the way, Kensai is a sort of "I use my Guan Dao (Polearm)/Masamune (Greatsword) as if it were a finess weapon, dancing around swiftly as I swing my big weapon with extra power (Great Weapon Master feat)".

Monk 5 / Fighter 15 already does this. And better. ****, you can action surge for six attacks, use PAM for a bonus action attack, use GWM for a damage spike, and spam 5 stunning strikes and 6 x d12 sup die on each of the first attacks that hit. Go away and short rest and do it all over again.

As for dancing around swiftly, use BM maneuvers. There are a few that let you do just his, and spam the damage even higher while youre at it. Plus take Mobile. Youre a fighter so might as well use those extra feats.

[Malifice]

Kensai seems to be the kind of "I do big damage with big weapons.

Which is as far away from what most of us wanted in the class as to not be funny.

Plus its terrible at the job. Barbarians, Paladins and Action surging Fighters leave it behind in the dust.

It should be designed as a monk that can do slightly more damage than a baseline OHM, with a core schtick of focusing on a specific weapon and unarmed attacks (like a Kensai or Wuxia from crouching tiger/ hidden dragon or similar) and without the OHMs mixed bag of [status effects/ healing/ sanctuary/ quivering palm].

A weapon using warrior-monk. Less weird mystic-fu and less focus on punching people and imposing status effects, and a focus on one (of many different) weapons and a slight bump in damage per round to compensate.

[Carlos Barreto]

It totally makes katana and jian using (or twin dragon swords or whatever) totally obsolete and suboptimal.

But since twin dragon swords means dual wielding, it's suboptimal with any monastic tradition, since you are much better using your bonus action your Martial Arts unarmed bonus attack or Flurry of Blows.


If your kensai isnt packing a scottish claymore, a sledgehammer or a greataxe, its a woeful archetype. And that bad class design. Both from a thematic POV (it fails to capture what we imagine when we think of the class) and from a design point of view.

Except it doesn't have to be these weapons.
I have no difficult to see Sephirot (from Final Fantasy VII) as a Kensai.
The same I could say for Seung Mina (from Soul Edge/Calibur series) as a female Kensai.

I think both are valid character concepts. It's a monk designed to use Martial Weapons. The fact that heavy weapons are more deadly (extra damage and/or reach) than the other weapons has nothing to do with the monastic tradition per se.


All hypothetical builds to date feature a 2d6 heavy weapon. Because its self evident how crap the archetype is with any other weapon, seeing as the instant you use a weapon, your most important class feature (martial arts) gets shut down.

While I agree that the 2d6 is the best option for damage purpose, I still think that the extra reach is better because it works nicelly with the Monk high speed.

[Malifice]

But since twin dragon swords means dual wielding, it's suboptimal with any monastic tradition, since you are much better using your bonus action your Martial Arts unarmed bonus attack or Flurry of Blows.

Exactly.

Of course, Kensai (as written) cant use bonus action for martial arts, nor can they use it for flurry (or they can flurry, but unless they have a Str of 20, its not worth it).

And Kensai as written also cant dual wield seeing as they need a feat (optional) and a fighting style they dont get access to, in order to enable a fighting style that opens up damage that is in every way worse than simply using martial arts and ditching the weapon.


Except it doesn't have to be these weapons.
I have no difficult to see Sephirot (from Final Fantasy VII) as a Kensai.
The same I could say for Seung Mina (from Soul Edge/Calibur series) as a female Kensai.

I think both are valid character concepts. It's a monk designed to use Martial Weapons. The fact that heavy weapons are more deadly (extra damage and/or reach) than the other weapons has nothing to do with the monastic tradition per se.



While I agree that the 2d6 is the best option for damage purpose, I still think that the extra reach is better because it works nicelly with the Monk high speed.

It does have to be heavy weapons. Its a totally poor choice to use anything but heavy weapons (and even then its a bad choice).

I want a Kensai using a Katana or Jian (or twin dragon swords) to be as viable as one using a Claymore.

[MrStabby]

Indeed. It gives you two other awesome features.
Anyway, I was talking about the +10 damage bonus with Dexterity.

About the Stunning Strike... Yes, that does make sense. You can gain advantage from up to three attacks if the first attack lands a stunning condition.

Kensai seems to be the kind of "I do big damage with big weapons" while the Open Hand is like "I do extra conditions when I go all out (Flurry)". At first glance, Kensai seems a little bit overpowered, but I'm not so convinced. I think it deserves more game test and less theorycraft.

Off-topic, I think that Open Hand Monks should have at level 3 a Fighting Style feature that boosts his Martial Art die to the next die (for example, turning a d4 into a d6), but only for unarmed strikes. It's basically a +1 (a bonus smaller than the Duelist Fighting Style), but you receive the bonus more often (up to four attacks). I think that would improve dramatically his OPEN HAND idea.

With the sharpshooter thing I think it is important to look at it in context. Just saying +10 to damage on a dex weapon dropping bonus attacks and accuracy boosts from either side isn't the best comparison. The issue isn't this monk doing more single target damage than classes focused on single target damage - it won't. The issue is it doing more damage than other control classes whilst only taking a negligible hit to it's control abilities.

As to how good it is - yes testing is usually better (well enough testing otherwise things degenerate into argument by anecdote). In this case though I think there is more confidence we can have in theory. We know the base class. We know how good faster movement is, we know how good stunning strikes are and we know how good getting all the saves and other monk abilities are. Those of us who have played a couple of different types of monk also know how good the different archetype abilities are and how much of the total package they make up. Extra damage isn't an exotic new abilitiy that we need to see the interaction of with other features - extra damage ins't untested. We generally know what difference it makes. I think we can see the difference that Kensei damage does above the core monk class and make a judgement as to whether it is better than the other class features.

Some of it is a big difference. At more modest levels where a monk damage die is a D4, a D10 or a D12 weapon will seriously outshine it - even ignoring feats and criticals. Even on turns where the bonus action is used for martial arts rather than dashing or disengaging the kensei is coming out well ahead (and still has a bonus action free - unless they use that for damage as well.

The other way I think of it is in terms of where a monk's weakness lies. Your base monk is good against casters and other non con heavy classes. Good against single or at least few targets. Worse vs hordes and worse vs really tough things. The kensei now keeps these strengths but eliminates a lot of the weaknesses. Things that individually you cant justify wasting resources on can be killed quickly instead of stunned or otherwise controlled. You no longer have a class that is a balance of strengths and weaknesses but something that is uniformly very good.

[jaappleton]

Let's get a little hypothetical here.

Let's say Kensei weapons ARE Monk weapons. I believe I read a tweet from Crawford that said otherwise, but again, hypothetical. This means Martial Arts as a bonus action works. Can we run some numbers?

Let's say Greatsword for a weapon with Kensei, Quarterstaff for Open Hand.

Lv3 Kensei
2d6 + 3 (Dex) +1d4 + 3 = 16

Lv3 Open Hand (Quarterstaff)
1d8 + 3 + 1d4 + 3 = 13



Lv5 Kensei
2d6 + 3 *2 + 1d6 + 3 = 27

Lv5 Open Hand
1d8 + 3 *2 + 1d6 + 3 = 22


Here's where my own math gets fuzzy... I'm not certain how to calculate GWM compared to not using GWM. Obviously the +10 damage, but the -5 to attack is where I get fuzzy, in the sense of how less accurate is the Kensei at 5th level? We can assume Stunning Strike, and therefore Advantage, but -5 is still important. I'm just not certain how to calculate it.

[Tanarii]

You need to add in hit percentage and crit percentage, so that you can account for the ability of Kensai to pummel up to two targets for automatic damage on a hit.

Edit: Um, nm. You don't if you're just calculating DPR since it's on a hit of the original attack, whereas the bonus attack happens just for attacking. So it works out the same as long as the hit chances are the same.

Effectively, pummel becomes a worthless ability. That was a pretty big hint that Kensai != Monk weapons even before JC's tweet clearly establishes the intent.

[Malifice]

Actually, my prior take on the class was a bit strong. I'm gonna gut some of the combat stuff, tone down dual weapon kata, and add in a ribbon at mid level. Like how the OHM rolls.

Damage is already spiking with the increased damage dice, so it needs more flavor and less combat oomph.


Path of the Kensei (3rd level):

When you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you learn to extend your knowledge of the martial arts beyond the standard array of monk weapons.

Select one martial or simple weapon without the Heavy quality (other than the lance) to be your Kensai weapon. This weapon is now treated as a Monk weapon for you.

In addition, when you attack with your Kensai weapon, you may replace the weapon damage die with 1d10 unless the weapon also has the reach quality. At 11th level in this class, the increased damage die increases to 2d6. At 17th level in this class it increases to 2d8.

Finally, choose one of the following options:

Weapon master: Select one of the Dueling or Great weapon fighting styles. You learn this fighting style. In addition you can expend 1 point of ki to gain advantage on any checks or save you need to make to avoid being disarmed of your weapon, or that targets your weapon.
Dual weapon kata: When you are not wearing armor or using a shield, and wield two Monk weapons at the same time, you gain +1 to your AC. When you use your flurry of blows attack, you can choose to make a single attack with one of your monk weapons [adding Str or Dex to the damage as normal] in place of making two unarmed attacks.
Zen archery: You must have selected a bow to use this option. You gain the Archery fighting style. In addition as a bonus action on your turn you can expend 2 points of Ki to take careful aim at a creature you can see that is within range of a ranged weapon you are weilding. Until the end of this turn, your succesful ranged attacks against this target ignore 3/4 and 1/2 cover and deals additional damage equal to 2 + half your Monk level.


Makes your 'snowflake' weapon deal fixed damage that scales with level (at 11th and 17th), a monk weapon (meaning its fully interchangeable with martial arts and flurry) and keeps all weapons (two handers, one handers, dual wielding and bows) equally viable and each unique in their own way.

I ripped the Zen archery ability from the sharpshooter fighter. Its stronger than the other abilities, but archery doesn't synergy as well with martial arts as melee.


One with your Weapon (6th level):

Your attacks with monk weapons are treated as magical.

Pretty standard ribbon and appropriate for this level. Now you are assured of always being able to use your snowflake weapon (you entered this class just to use) no matter the target.


Stare down (11th level)

As an action on your turn you can expend 1 point of Ki and attempt to stare down or otherwise seek to intimidate your target (pulling your attack at the last second, landing a close shot with a bow, staring your target down, a flourish of your blade, a strike that stops just short etc). Choose a single target that can see you within 60'. That target must pass a [DC 8 + Wis + Prof] Wisdom save or be frightened of you. The target can re-roll the save at the end of each turn to end the condition, becoming immune to this ability for 24 hours on a save.

In addition, stories of your skill with your weapon, and status as a dangerous killer or warrior diplomat gains renown. You gain proficiency in your choice of intimidate or persuasion, and gain advantage on the check if your weapon is visible and your target knows who you are

Ribbon with some RP and combat utility and flavor that isnt just 'deal more DPS'. Plus you get to engage in psychic duels/ stare downs/ fancy weapon twirling/ trick shots or whatever that make you a total bad-ass.


Deadly Strike (17th level)

When you attack a target and have advantage on the attack roll, and both attack rolls would hit your target, the attack is a critical hit.

Cool and potent capstone that meshes with stunning fist (or requires some set up) and a little luck to get up and running. Its competing with quivering palm (3 ki to save or die rider on an attack) so its about right.

That feels a bit more balanced. Basically if you like the monk, and want to do slightly more damage and be more bad-ass, in exchange for a bunch of status effects, and tricking death touch and healing and sanctuary, this is your class.

[jaappleton]

You need to add in hit percentage and crit percentage, so that you can account for the ability of Kensai to pummel up to two targets for automatic damage on a hit.

I... don't know how....

-stares at the much smarter people on the forum-

.....

-hands them the marker and steps away from the white board-

I'll sit down now.

[Carlos Barreto]

Exactly. The only way to make it work is packing a polearm, claymore or great axe, and using a feat (which you dont get whole benefit from seeing as youre using your bonus action most rounds to pummel and not cleave).

I'm not sure If I got your point here, but I don't think that to use heavy weapons is the only way to make Kensai work. I've seen people sharing other ideas (like using a Net as a Kensai Weapon).

But yes, if you want to play a Sephiroth/Seung Mina-like character, than GWM is too appealing to be avoided.


If they instead locked the damage at 1d10 (scaling up with level), removed the heavy property and just made the thing a monk weapon then you could use any weapon. Suddenly twin dragon sword or nunchuck or bow or katana or spiked chain kensai are just as viable as tetsubo kensai.

Just to make sure, the highlighted part means to remove the Heavy Property restriction from the Monk Weapon feature?


The class could simply be an OHM that (thematically) uses a weapon in addition to fists, and (game design) does slightly higher DPR than the OH Monk (which is already on the low side), while missing out on the status effects, healing, sanctuary, and quivering palm abilities of the OHM.

I think that Monks in general are in the "low side" of the damage chart just because they can't pump their damage with +10. Considering that they are Dex-based characters (therefore, no GWM feat), I think their damage output are really good.

I think that's the main (and maybe the only) strength of the Kensai: to allow your Monk to use GWM with Dexterity.


It also removes a lot of unexpected interactions between martial arts, dec to hit and damage, finesse weapons, GWM and bonus action flurry attacks they were obviously so worried about when writing the class.

Indeed, but I don't think that it's something unheard of in the 5e, in the sense that you can't use everything you got at the same time. One example is the Battlerage Barbarian - an official archetype - that makes the Barbarian's Unarmored Defense useless once you use the Spiked Armor.


Monk 5 / Fighter 15 already does this. And better. ****, you can action surge for six attacks use PAM for a bonus action attack, use GWM for a damage spike, and spam 5 stunning strikes and 6 x d12 sup die on each of the first attacks that hit. Go away and short rest and do it all over again.

Except that Kensai Monks makes that work at level 5, just right in the moment where he gains his beloved Extra Attack and Stunning Strike. Ok, you don't have Action Surge as a pure monk, but you can take a Fighter 2 dip and it's good enough. And honestly, I don't think that the third attack is so attractive when you considering that you have to give up so many Monk class features. If the third attack is so important, just go straight Fighter.


Plus its terrible at the job. Barbarians, Paladins and Action surging Fighters leave it behind in the dust.

It's no surprise that Barbarians (with the Brutal Critical), Paladins (with their Divine Smite) and Fighters (with their Action Surge) should cause more damage. But since you just can't use Brutal Critical, Divine Smite and Action Surge all the time, I think that the heavy weapon user Kensai being as good as these class when they don't use their best class features is the right thing to do.

And since Action Surge just requires 2 Fighter levels (which also gives you a so desired Fighting Style), I don't think that's a real concern, unless multiclass is not allowed.

[Carlos Barreto]

KENSAI MONK WITH BIG WEAPONS AND FLURRY OF BLOWS



Makes two attacks with his Big Weapon (Possibily with the -5/+10 from GWM);
Drop his Big Weapon as a free action
Use Flurry of Blows; since you are unarmed, it fulfills the Martial Arts requirement (being unarmed) in order to receive it's bonus (Martial Arts die and attack with Dex);
Use your "Object interaction" to take back the weapon;
Repeat.


RAW, is that legal?
If so, it means a level 5 Monk can cause:

ATTACK: 2d6+DEX+10
EXTRA ATTACK: 2d6+DEX+10
drop the weapon
FLURRY OF BLOWS: (1d6+DEX) + (1d6+DEX)

It looks intense.

[MinotaurWarrior]

How would people feel if the +2AC ability was replaced with "When wielding a kensai weapon in your main hand, and a monk weapon in your off hand, you can fight with both weapons even if one is not light, may add your ASM to damage rolls with the off hand weapon, and may replace the unarmed strikes in your flurry of blows with off hand weapon attacks"

So then, a kensai will have three modes - zen archer, kiai focused ultra disciplined make every strike count ancestral sword guy, and the whirling blades twin dragon sword fellow.



He can 'power up' by spending Ki (and his bonus action) to get a +3 to hit and damage on round one (meaning he deals 1d10+8, and makes two attacks on that round). Then from round 2 onwards he can do +1d4. An ability only useful if your DM doesnt use magic loot.

Sharpen the blade stacks with magical items, and with other class abilities that add static + to attack and damage rolls.