Mystic Theurge...

[Guinaur]

So, In your opinions, is the Mystic Theurge:
Very Good,
Good,
Okay,
Bad, or
Very Bad...
and reasons...

Just interested in opinions...
Thanks

[Abbott]

You sacrifice one spellcasting level and two feats and get the ability to cast almost every single spell in the book. I'd say the mystic theurge is gold.

[ClericofPhwarrr]

Bad, but not very bad. You lose out on normal spellcasting progression, and your highest-level spells are out of reach. Unless you're using Archivist/Wizard/MT, you have two different casting stats, as well.

[The Glyphstone]

I personally like the Mystic Theurge, because of all the extra spells you can cast. However, it's often considered underpowered - and I can see why. The power gap between 8th and 9th level spells is exponentially different...a non-Epic Theurge will never* cast Shapechange, Gate, Wish, Wail of the Banshee, etc. That's a serious thing to be giving up; it may just be one level of spells, but it's the 9th level of spells that makes it such a price to pay.

A Theurge, IMO, would be excellent as a 5th party member - the full divine and full arcane caster would cover their normal rolls, while the Theurge took care of all the utility/battlefield control/random things that the main casters couldn't afford spell slots/spells known to use on.


(*There are a few builds escaping this, but they are complicated, and usually involve Ur-Cheese.)

[Swooper]

On that scale? Okay. Not as good as a pure wizard or cleric, or most other full-caster PrC, nor is it as good as later dual-casting classes that followed (Cerebremancer, Psychic Theurge etc), but it certainly makes a decent character. It's main drawback is the disability to continue advancing it past 10 'till you're epic leveled.

[Dhavaer]

Eh? Wiz 7/Archivist 3/MT 10 gets 9th level Arcane, 7th level Divine spells. Why is everyone saying they don't get 9th level? The problem with the Theurge is that it gets 9th levels slowly, and its Epic progression sucks horribly (it's worse, I understand, than alternating levels of Wizard and Cleric).

[Skyserpent]

Well... according to the logic ninja:


http://www.accesswave.ca/~thomson/ackbar.jpg

Don't take it. No, really. If you get the urge to take it, go play a Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 1 for a while, in a party with a Wizard 7 and a Cleric 7.
Then cry.

Of course, honestly, it can be fun. I mean, while not as fundamentally effective as a max-caster he's still got some neat tricks that he can pull. But still, the methods to make it EFFECTIVE are quite byzantine.

[Orzel]

Very Bad to Okay for final build depending on the amount of optimization.

In a party it's Horrible to below average since you'll be a buff/utility caster 90% of the time. You'll rarely have the high DC spells to kill/disable things in more than 1 encounter unless your enemies roll bad. A bard with more spells, softer body, and no skill points.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

supposedly there is a way to get into MT fast, it has been posted on this forum too. If you use that way to enter, take 10 levels of MT, switch to another arcane/divine hybrid prestige class untill you hit level 20.
Would that work?

[Evil DM Mark3]

Bad, rising to OK in a small group. The fact is that if it had been aroun in version 3 it would have been punadge due to the version 3 haste and all. But now more spells per day is not so good compared to HIGHER LEVEL spells per day. When you could dump a fireball and a lightling bolt in the same round without meta-magic the twin progression would have been amazing (so much so that when the MT was shown as part of a 3.5 preview there was uproar to the tune of OMG DA BROKE!) Now those extra spells just get churned into healing or sometimes divination and you are forced to play a weakened Wizard in battles.

[Swooper]

Well, there's Precocious Apprentice which let's you cast a 2nd level arcane spell, but that's a silly backdoor entrance that the rules did certainly not intent.

If you're doing that and your DM lets you, why not just go all that way and do a Psion/Beholder Mage/Ur-Priest/Mindbender/Mystic Theurge/Psychic Theurge build?:smallconfused:

[new1965]

A Theurge, IMO, would be excellent as a 5th party member - the full divine and full arcane caster would cover their normal rolls, while the Theurge took care of all the utility/battlefield control/random things that the main casters couldn't afford spell slots/spells known to use on.


If it wasnt for the MT HD, a Warmage/Cleric/MT might make a good support person. Set them up as an arcane blaster and use divine buffs spells and healing for defense

[Trouvere]

What do you think would fix the MT? Currently, without dodgy fast entry, you lose 3 levels of spell progression on each side. Would it be balanced, or overpowered, or still weak, if the entry requirements were altered to require the loss of only 2 levels?

[Roderick_BR]

I don't like it. People can say that it's not good because they can't get the 9th level spells (other than some weird multi classing), but being able to cast 8th level spells from two spell lists is something I wouldn't allow in my games. Simple as that.
Same thing with the "Arcane Hierophant" that is a druid/wizard PrC.

[Kurald Galain]

It doesn't need fixing. It's a tradeoff of power for flexibility. People who like the latter can take the presclass, people who like the former won't.

For what it's worth it's not unlike a multiclass cleric/wizard in 2nd ed.

[Arbitrarity]

Two of the few builds where MT is good:
Bard 7/Ur-Priest 2/Virtuoso1/SubCh 2/MT 8

Full bard music, Ur-priest 10, Sublime chord 10.

Illumian (with Improved Krau sigil cheese) Druid 2/Wizard 1/Arcane Heirophant 10/MT 7

Druid 19 casting, wizard 18, lvl 12 wildshape/animal companion, other heirophant goodies.

[Person_Man]

If you're using a cheesy Ur-Priest or Nar Daemonbinder combo, then the Theurge is one of the most powerful PrC in the game.

If you're using standard caster classes, then its one of the weakest "full" casters in the game. (Which still puts it above many Skill Monkeys and melee classes, but below every other caster). Higher level spells are clearly more powerful then having access to more numerous lower level spells. If you need more flexibility, just mine the various supplements out there. There is virtually no tactic that a arcane caster can do that can't be done by a correctly build divine caster, or vice verses.

[Gavin Sage]

The biggest weakpoint of the Mystic Theuge in my opinion is that divine and arcane usually use different stats. If you are willing to be a twig though you can have a decent Wis to cast your spells and then just buff Int like any normal Wizard. The rest is a trade off that is not unfair, especially played as a Wizard.

[Darrin]

Well, there's Precocious Apprentice which let's you cast a 2nd level arcane spell, but that's a silly backdoor entrance that the rules did certainly not intent.


The designer didn't intend it that way, but WotC hasn't bothered to erratify it yet. The problem with Precocious Apprentice is by RAW, you lose your 2nd level arcane spell when you level up to Cleric 3 and get your normal 2nd-level divine spell slots. While it's somewhat obvious what was intended (Prec. App. should add a 2nd-level slot when you gain 2nd-level _arcane_ spells), the RAW wording is still pretty klunky.

[TheWarBlade]

If you truely want the Divine/Arcane combo caster then take a look at True Necromancer PrC in Libris Mortis. Much better than the MT.

[CASTLEMIKE]

It was the first dual progression PRC and that is what it provided dual spell casting progression.

Subsequent PRCs duplicating for other primary spellcasters have provided Specials and or better Hit Die, BAB, ietc the primary casters they have been built for so it could use an update and a few specials itself.

Consider if you could play an Ultimate Mystic based on the Ultimate Magus PRC particularly with the Ur-Lord or Ur-Priest.

It's okay and pretty good with an Ur-Lord or Ur-Priest (I usually modify the PRC so the PC is an Ur-Adept for an obscure slumbering or dormant demi-power) build for level 9 spells in both classes at level 20.

It's nice with an Archivist build for the the Int stat synergy.

[ZeroNumerous]

True Necromancer falls to the problem of Mystic Theurge. Too many levels, too little advancement. A 3/3 Wizard/Cleric is still only 17 caster levels. True Necromancer fails, unfortunately.

[CASTLEMIKE]

True Necromancer falls to the problem of Mystic Theurge. Too many levels, too little advancement. A 3/3 Wizard/Cleric is still only 17 caster levels. True Necromancer fails, unfortunately.

Amended my post:

I would have to disagree if you go Ur Lord or Ur Priest.

You should be casting around 180% or so more of the spells of a comparable level 20 single primary class spellcaster with the True Necromancer PRC granting your PC more options with Level 9 spells on both sides at Level 20(Level 9 Divine Spells like Miracle access at Level 16) probably with a bonus spell for each spell casting side due to primary ability modifier enhancements

On the Arcane side if Specializing as a Necromancer or using the variant Necromancer Domain Mage you should have 3 level 9 spells at level 20 plus two divine spells for five total not to shabby with all the other spells you have.

Mages also benefit from the 9 of 14 PRC levels with D6 hit die you would use for the build.

[ZeroNumerous]

I would have to disagree. Level 9 spells on both sides (Miracle access) probably with a bonus spell for each spell casting side due to primary ability modifier enhancements plus an extra domain spell on the divine side normally and another on the arcane side if Specializing as a Necromancer or using the variant Necromancer Domain Mage.

Cleric 17 has 8th level spells as it's maximum. Wizard 17 has 1 9th level spell. The only way to get a bonus 9th level spell would be an Int of 28, and only Int because Cleric will never break 9th level spells. To get an Int of 28, you'd need a +5 Book, a +6 Headband, and a base Int of 17. Thats ontop of your Wisdom and Con requirements.

Further, you gain an extra domain after you're required to take the Death Domain, which is incredibly weak for a domain.

Domain Wizard: Never used it, so I can't comment.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Cleric 17 has 8th level spells as it's maximum. Wizard 17 has 1 9th level spell. The only way to get a bonus 9th level spell would be an Int of 28, and only Int because Cleric will never break 9th level spells. To get an Int of 28, you'd need a +5 Book, a +6 Headband, and a base Int of 17. Thats ontop of your Wisdom and Con requirements.

Further, you gain an extra domain after you're required to take the Death Domain, which is incredibly weak for a domain.

Domain Wizard: Never used it, so I can't comment.

Amended post:

Level 20 suggested wealth is 760,000 GP. If you can't find a way to get your Int and Wisdom up to 28 for that +9 modifier on both abilities with Various Methods not limited to wealth you are suboptimizing the PC because it is permitted and encouraged by the existing rules. That is what most players do basing your arguement on the fact that they don't is a fallacy IMO.

I prefer 32 point. Most players will take a +0 template like Plane touched which will provide a +2 bonus to Int or Wis or another template with a higher LA with the LA buydown option.

[ZeroNumerous]

Oops. I was reading Favored Soul while thinking about Cleric spell advancement. Ok, so you have 1, potentionally two 9th level spells. Compared to a straight single-class caster and you're still behind him for every single level. Congratulations, it's still meaningless.

EDIT: No, I'm not saying you can't, because obviously you can. But to do so you'd need a base 17 to get the +11 from items. And if you started with 15/15 and reasonable other stats, then you'd be using all four of your HD increases to Wisdom/Int. While the single-class caster has devoted his to his primary casting stat. Further, he started +2 higher because he didn't need a second casting stat.

[Damionte]

Castle and Zero, a bit of confusion seems to have popped up around whatever you two have mentioned about 17 caster levels. What build are you guys actually quoting?

did you add another dual casting prestige class on after Myst-theurg? I think soem folks, (I know I am) are confused on where you're getting your 17 caster levels from, and what side you're gettign o 17 on.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Castle and Zero, a bit of confusion seems to have popped up around whatever you two have mentioned about 17 caster levels. What build are you guys actually quoting?

did you add another dual casting prestige class on after Myst-theurg? I think soem folks, (I know I am) are confused on where you're getting your 17 caster levels from, and what side you're gettign o 17 on.

Amended my post. We are quoting the True Necromancer PRC over 14 levels with 6 levels divided between cleric and mage. I was mistaken regarding the level 9 spells without a Ur Lord or Ur Priest for the build.

[ZeroNumerous]

did you add another dual casting prestige class on after Myst-theurg? I think soem folks, (I know I am) are confused on where you're getting your 17 caster levels from, and what side you're gettign o 17 on.

I'm using a basic Wizard 3/Cleric 3/True Necromancer 14 to base my argument on. Which works out to Wizard 17/Cleric 17 at 20th.

[Ramza00]

If you truely want the Divine/Arcane combo caster then take a look at True Necromancer PrC in Libris Mortis. Much better than the MT.

It is actually much worse than mystic theurge.

[Ramza00]

Mystic Theurge is great or horrible depending on how you enter it.

For example this build is great.

Thus another build might be Illuminan with Improved Sigil Krau

Archivist 2/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 10/Holt Warden 3/Arcane Hierophant 4

or

Archivist 2/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 2/Holt Warden 3/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 2

The 3rd lvl of Holt Warden also gives Trackless Step (the complete champion plant full caster prc, which also gives domain slots if you don't have them already with the 1st lvl). The difference between these two builds is the 2nd build is 3 caster levels behind from lvls 8 to 13, 2 lvls behind lvl 7 and lvl 14, and 1 lvl behind lvl 6 and lvl 15 the first build I listed in caster levels, you lose the better bab, hit points, and benefits of Arcane Hierophant though. Eventually the 2nd build will catch up with wizard spell levels at lvl 16.

Cast as a 19th lvl Archivist
Cast as a 15th lvl Wizard
Has domains slots so you can further mix and match spell casting classes with AnySpell and Greater AnySpell.

Note Holt Warden though is a prestige class which is very "nature prestige society based" thus not for all characters, the good news is the prc flavor wise works well with arcane hierophant.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Oops. I was reading Favored Soul while thinking about Cleric spell advancement. Ok, so you have 1, potentionally two 9th level spells. Compared to a straight single-class caster and you're still behind him for every single level. Congratulations, it's still meaningless.

EDIT: No, I'm not saying you can't, because obviously you can. But to do so you'd need a base 17 to get the +11 from items. And if you started with 15/15 and reasonable other stats, then you'd be using all four of your HD increases to Wisdom/Int. While the single-class caster has devoted his to his primary casting stat. Further, he started +2 higher because he didn't need a second casting stat.

No.

I prefer 32 point build although you could do it with less.

Choose a race that provides a bonus to intelligence or wisdom.

I prefer the +0 Plane touched template or another template with LA buydown that enhances intelligence and wisdom by + 2 to +4 each normally for +2 LA.

Amended this and earlier post it will work with Ur Lord or Ur Priest and provide level 9 divine spells at level 16 which addresses most of the spellcasting issues.

[CASTLEMIKE]

It is actually much worse than mystic theurge.

I would have to disagree with the Ur Lord or Ur Priest. Level 9 spells on the divine caster side at level 16 and on the arcane side at level 20.

[tarbrush]

MT advances both arcane and divine spellcasting on every level. True necromancer only advances arcane casting at L1 and divine a L2. So a Cleric3/Wizard3/TN14 casts as a 16th level cleric and wizard. Whereas the equivalent MT (yes I know there are only 10 MT levels) casts as cleric 17/wizard 17. MT has 9th levels spells, and all spells a level earlier than TN.

And because even MT progression is painfully slow, TN is abominably slow.

EDIT: Actually, i'm wrong. It loses 2 caster levels on each side. So, Cleric 15, Wizard 15. TN fails. Hard.

[CASTLEMIKE]

MT advances both arcane and divine spellcasting on every level. True necromancer only advances arcane casting at L1 and divine a L2. So a Cleric3/Wizard3/TN14 casts as a 16th level cleric and wizard. Whereas the equivalent MT (yes I know there are only 10 MT levels) casts as cleric 17/wizard 17. MT has 9th levels spells, and all spells a level earlier than TN.

And because even MT progression is painfully slow, TN is abominably slow.

Sure but with an Ur Lord or Ur Priest build you acquire access to level 9 spellcasting at level 16 so you do not significantly lag behind a standard primary spellcaster plus you have more spells and more spellcasting options than a single primary caster.

From what I have observed most of the players don't play builds from level 1 to 20. A reserve feat is really good at lower levels and so is Improved Initiative feats that help your PC survive to level up in play which you rarely see them as a part of a high level build.

[tarbrush]

So? You're still never gonna get 9th level spells, you only get 8th level spells at 20 and you've had to waste 2 feats on practised spellcaster. You end up 4 levels of spellcasting against the party wizard or cleric. Practised spellcasting may make up the CL, but it won't make up the horror of being so horribly behind in spells known and the level of spells you can cast.

EDIT: Oh man, wrong again. You end up 5 levels behind the normal class. That possibly means that you don't get 8th level spells.

Although, it would be much more reasonable to precocious apprentice your way into TN as you only have to be able to cast 2 specific second level spells, rather than be able to cast 2nd level spells.

[Ramza00]

I would have to disagree. Level 9 spells on both sides and relatively easy entry so you can spend your feats and skills on other things besides entering a PRC for a dip.

Are we talking about the same prc? The True Necro I know is 12/14 spellcasting plus additional caster levels lost prior to entry.

[Catharsis]

Most players will take a +0 template like Plane touched which will provide a +2 bonus to Int or Wis or another template with a higher LA with the LA buydown option.
Where is the +0 plane-touched template from? I only know the Faerûnian planetouched races, which all have a +1 LA. An air-touched human would be perfect for my planned cleric of Akadi. :smallbiggrin:

[CASTLEMIKE]

My mistake regarding straight core spellcasters and level 9 spells with True Necromancer sorry I missed that (Not a PRC I normally play or build).

Looking at it again though I believe it could be built for around the Ur Lord or Ur Priest -2 with 5 levels of wizard to taste with the feat Arcane Domain Death

9 levels of True Necromancer (Provide the +8 to both sides and level 9 spells at level 16 on the Ur Lord/ Ur Priest side before a standard single full caster which sort of addresses that delayed spellcasting arguement for several levels)

4 levels of something else for level 9 spells on both sides at level 20.

[Tellah]

Mystic Theurge sucks because it's so vanilla. It gets two casting progressions and... nothing. Give me some weird abilities, like immunity to mind-affecting spells cast by chaotic outsiders, or roll spellcraft in place of a will save against a spell 1/day. The Theurge needs something--anything--to make it more interesting.

[Keld Denar]

Go reread Libris Mortis. You don't get full casting on both sides throughout True Necro. There are at least 2 levels there (no book in front of me, but I remember that standing out) that don't have both caster sides. If it's just 2, and it might be more, then that's 16th caster on both sides = no 9th level spells. You still get Wail as a spell-like, but it's just not at the same power level as Time Stop and Gate. I dunno if True Necro has been reprinted elsewhere with full casting progression, but that's what I remember from Libris Mortis, where TN first appeared.

EDIT: Woah, I have been meganinjaed by my betters. /bow

[mostlyharmful]

this is all fine once you reach twentieth level, but wizards or clerics get that sweet sweet 9th level at 17, in other words how do you stay useful in a party for three levels? while you can beat any caster on endurance the seventeenth level single caster still outshines your seventeenth,. so unless you start the campaign at twentieth you have to get carried by the team for a LOOOOONG time.

[CASTLEMIKE]

this is all fine once you reach twentieth level, but wizards or clerics get that sweet sweet 9th level at 17, in other words how do you stay useful in a party for three levels? while you can beat any caster on endurance the seventeenth level single caster still outshines your seventeenth,. so unless you start the campaign at twentieth you have to get carried by the team for a LOOOOONG time.


Build with an Ur Priest or Ur Lord and get level 9 spells at level 16.

[Keld Denar]

I wouldn't say you get carried. Sure, you can't push the celerity-timestop-cloudkill-forcecage-iwin-button, but you CAN still forcecage, you CAN still chain GMW for all the melee types, you CAN still finger of death, quickened truestrike-disintegrate, shaped AMF, and a lot of other nasty stuff that wizards can do, plus you could even Tensor's, Divine Power, and Rightous Might, Greater Blinking, Greater Mirror Image and be a fearsome melee combat foe as well given a couple rounds to buff. 9th level spells are made of pure win, but without them, you arn't a total chump fit for hiding in the portable extra-dimensional space until the combat is over. There are some crazy combinations of arcane and divine spells that you can pull off with enough imagination.

[Ramza00]

My mistake regarding straight core spellcasters and level 9 spells with True Necromancer sorry I missed that (Not a PRC I normally play or build).

Looking at it again though I believe it could be built for around the Ur Lord or Ur Priest -2 with 5 levels of wizard to taste with the feat Arcane Domain Death

9 levels of True Necromancer (Provide the +8 to both sides and level 9 spells at level 16 on the Ur Lord/ Ur Priest side before a standard single full caster which sort of addresses that delayed spellcasting arguement for several levels)

4 levels of something else for level 9 spells on both sides at level 20.


Build with an Ur Priest or Ur Lord and get level 9 spells at level 16.
Arcane Disciple Death will not qualify you for True Necromancer. Your DM can house rule it but it still won't work.

Taking a lvl of cleric and then ur priest is debatble whether it works. You lose all your cleric abilities and most dms will include domains with that.

Thus you have only 2 options to doe a true necro ur priest. Contemplative which means not starting true necro till lvl 12 which defeats the purpose.

Or the Horned Harbinger prestige class in Faiths and Panetheons, a 3.0 Forgotten Realms book. Horned Harbinger does not progress casting and can be entered in at 5th lvl it does give you the death domain at lvl 1.

Thus you will have a build like this
Wizard 5/Horned Harbinger 1/Ur Priest 2/True Necro 12.
You will get 9th lvl Divine Spells and 8th lvl Wizard spells

problem is a

Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ur Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 10/X 2 is a better necromancer and a better caster only resulting in 2 lvls lost for Wizard and faster spells gain for Ur Priest.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Where is the +0 plane-touched template from? I only know the Faerûnian planetouched races, which all have a +1 LA. An air-touched human would be perfect for my planned cleric of Akadi. :smallbiggrin:

Players Guide to Faerun is the latest I am aware of.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Arcane Disciple Death will not qualify you for True Necromancer. Your DM can house rule it but it still won't work.

Taking a lvl of cleric and then ur priest is debatble whether it works. You lose all your cleric abilities and most dms will include domains with that.

Thus you have only 2 options to doe a true necro ur priest. Contemplative which means not starting true necro till lvl 12 which defeats the purpose.

Or the Horned Harbinger prestige class in Faiths and Panetheons, a 3.0 Forgotten Realms book. Horned Harbinger does not progress casting and can be entered in at 5th lvl it does give you the death domain at lvl 1.

Thus you will have a build like this
Wizard 5/Horned Harbinger 1/Ur Priest 2/True Necro 12.
You will get 9th lvl Divine Spells and 8th lvl Wizard spells

problem is a

Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ur Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 10/X 2 is a better necromancer and a better caster only resulting in 2 lvls lost for Wizard and faster spells gain for Ur Priest.

One of the True Necromancer PRC requirements is access to the Death Domain.

Taking an Arcane Disciple Death Domain should suffice as it grants that access. If it doesn't play another character.

My house rule amends how Ur Lords and Ur Priests receive their spells. They aren't stealing divine power from the gods they are the lone or one of a handful of clergy for a slumbering power slowly stirring to wakefulness on the Astral and they get a single domain like an Eberron Adept.

Level 2 Ur Priests can Rebuke Undead and Summon Undead 2 as a divine spell.

[Ramza00]

The requirement is access to the Death Domain.

Taking an Arcane Domain Death should suffice IMO as it grants that access.

Level 2 Ur Priests can Rebuke Undead and Summon Undead 2 as a divine spell.
Access to the spells in a Domain!=Access to the Domain itself.

First Arcane Disciple does not give the domain's granted ability so you can't argue it is giving access to the domain itself.

Second even if you are able to replicate all the abilities that access to the domain gets (via planar touchstone feat and arcane disciple) that isn't the same as saying you have the domain. That is like saying a ford mustang is the same as having a ford taurus's engine placed in a ford mustang's chasis (which should work due to size but lets say it did). Just because both cars can run and go 100 miles to nearby city and they both look like the same car does not make them the same car.

Like I said it won't work with the rules Arcane Disciple doesn't work via the rules for True Necro, like I said a DM can easily houserule it for you but it would be a houserule.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Like most I don't have all the source books but I have a lot.

There are so many variants and options available now in game some of which tend to blur as we recall them without them open in front of us.

One of the things I have noticed is that some new feats, prcs and abilities mimic other in game feat and ability mechanics in former source books.

Some PRCs in Complete Divine allow Extra Domains. Other source books like the Arcane Disciple Feat in Complete Mage allows a mage or other arcane spellcaster to gain the divine domain bonus spells with wisdom as the attribue.

There is the Divine Magician Variant in Complete Mage a cleric who can take and add a single arcane abjuration, divination or Necromancy spell at to their cleric lists at each level for forfeing a single domain.

Mechanically I do not see why you could not have the reverse as a variant particularly letting a Necromancer take the Death Domain as a Variant (Probably just need to wait for a few more source books).

As Ur Lords and Ur Priests normally have no domains I don't see why they could not spend one of their open feats (say level 6) to take an Extra Domain Death to pursue the True Necromancer PRC.

Mystic Theurge prereqs: Arcana - 6, Religion -6 able to cast level 2 arcane and divine spells.

After all they could just as easily enter into Mystic Theurge earlier for 8 vanilla levels which would provide level 9 divine spells as early as level 15 to the PC depending on the build.

[tainsouvra]

So, In your opinions, is the Mystic Theurge: Very Good, Good, Okay, Bad, or Very Bad...
and reasons... I vote for...
Mystic Theurge: Misunderstood.

It is quite serviceable just using the core books, particularly when weighted against the other core-books classes. Naturally, when you start min-maxing everything using a pile of poorly-playtested splatbooks it starts to look bad, but so does everything else. When you have every single optional rule and class included in the game without your DM checking them out to see if they fit your campaign first, pretty much everything looks bad--when was the last time a group like that even had a high-level Fighter, after all?

Cleric 3, Wizard 3, Mystic Theurge 10, last +4 in Wizard gives you the casting of a lv13 Cleric and a lv17 Wizard when you're level 20. That's 7th-level divine spells and 9th-level arcane spells. That makes sense, given that the point of the Mystic Theurge is that you're putting your knowledge of magic above all else. So, in the end, it works out beautifully.

The downside to the MT is simple--your spell progression is three levels lower. This is a tradeoff that makes a big difference at lower levels (no Fireball until level 8 instead of 5...ick) but becomes decreasingly significant afterward, and is not as bad as you'd think in terms of your overall usefulness if you're willing to adapt as your level goes up--or if you don't start at a low level in the first place.

If your DM is running a standard campaign, you have more than one or two encounters in a day. Those couple peak-firepower spells that a mid-level pure Wizard would have over a mid-level Wizard-MT may be noticed in those first two encounters, but after that point an MT actually has more to work with, not less...and at the highest levels, it's really no contest who has more raw magical power to fling around.

I would honestly have to recommend trying it out for yourself, because the Mystic Theurge really is a misunderstood class. You don't outwizard Wizards, you don't outcleric Clerics, but you outmagic both of them handily.

[Missing Shoe]

I personally didn't like the MT that much. Great character concept, but as it's been stated, you don't get your high level spells. Plus you have so many spells and never will be able to use them all.

I played one in a party with a full cleric...I was feeling envious. He had stronger spells, higher almost everything. All I had was a wide variety of ok spells (we were EL 10).

But in a party of multiclassers or gishes I could see them being ok.

[Jack Mann]

The problem with mystic theurge isn't the late game. Indeed, if you go high enough, it becomes very good (say, epic levels). But unless you're using ur-priest or some other method rapid caster progression or early entry, you end up having to play most of the game one or two spell levels behind on both sides. Only having third level spells when your buddies are all getting their fifth level spells sucks. You've got lots of spell slots, but you can't do a whole lot with them, compared with what your companions can do. Remember, the most valuable currency (especially in late game) is in actions. Your buddies can quicken their spells a lot easier than you do (since they have more high-level spell slots than you do), and they get a lot more bang for their buck when they use a high-level spell.

Once you get to high level, it's not so bad, and you may even overtake the other players. But from fourth to, say, 15th level, you're going to be hurting.

[tainsouvra]

as it's been stated, you don't get your high level spells. I believe that statement was in error, as has been previously noted, as you do eventually get access to the highest level of spells.

While levelling in the midrange, though, you usually have one spell level less than a pure Wizard would at the same level. If that's what you mean, then yes, there is some truth to that, as long as you're comparing only his wizardry to a pure Wizard and neither is level 20...but frankly, that's a pretty biased comparison if you stop to think about it :smallsmile:


Plus you have so many spells and never will be able to use them all. Sure you can...in fact throwing ridiculous amounts of magic around is the whole point of the class. Buff everyone to the gills and still have most of your nukes available, save your cleric with your own healing power, use one of your spell slots just to heat your own bath at the end of the day just to show off, it doesn't matter...you have spells to spare!


I played one in a party with a full cleric...I was feeling envious. He had stronger spells, higher almost everything. All I had was a wide variety of ok spells (we were EL 10). I think you were comparing your cleric ability to an actual cleric's...of course you didn't look as good.

If he had been in charge of the big-bang divine magic, and you had been in charge of every other magic effect possible, I think you would have been happy with your performance :smallbiggrin:

[Golthur]

Having played a MT up to around 14th level, I'd say it's good-ish, but only with certain caveats. I certainly had fun, but you need to watch out for:
Other single-class casters in the party. If there's a straight wizard or straight cleric in the party along with you, you are going to be second string. If you're the only caster, you are the man, since you finally have enough staying power to last as long as the fighters do - and even longer in most cases. Near the end of the campaign, I was never the one who called for rest, it was always one of the fighter-types.
Multiple casting stats. This does suck, you have to address it with items as soon as possible. I used the Spellcasting Prodigy feat to supplement my weakish casting stats.
No feats or other cool abilities. This also sucks. You end up being very vanilla, and you need to blow all your feats on metamagic (see below).
The best part about playing a MT, though, is that you can be a spendthrift with magic. Quicken spell (or some other variant) is a must. You have nigh unlimited numbers of spells compared to other casters, so you need to throw as many in the air as you possibly can, as quickly as you can. Spells that operate on their own each round are gold. If you opt for the magic item path, you can make nearly anything.

All in all, I'd say it was fun, and not as bad as everyone says it is. And, because casters are generally overpowered anyway, capping my higher level spells didn't have a detrimental effect on anything. I might have felt differently, though, if I were constantly being shown up by the wizard. :wink:

[Jack_Simth]

Good? Bad? It depends.

If you do 4 or more meaningful encounters per day, then even with a traditional entry (Wiz-3/Cleric-3/MT-X) it's only painful for a couple of levels, after which, the extra endurance is very handy - sure, your spells aren't very "big" compared to the pure-classed Wizard or Cleric, but you can spend them like water.

Throw too many sources at it and it gets downright crazy (e.g., Unearthed Arcana Savage Bard-5/Complete Divine Ur-Priest-2/Dungeon Master's Guide Mystic Theurge-3 (Savage Bard/Ur-Priest)/Complete Arcane Sublime Chord-1/Mystic Theurge-(levels 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8)(Ur-Priest/Sublime Chord)/Dungeon Master's Guide Archmage-4(Sublime Chord) - gets 9th level Divine spells at level 15 or so, 9th level Arcane spells not too long after)

Originally, though, I believe it was a fix for multi-classed spellcasters. A Wiz-3/Clr-3/MT-10 is a viable 16th level character (if a bit behind on spell progression). A Wiz-8/Clr-8 is a baggage handler (if not baggage).

[Gavin Sage]

this is all fine once you reach twentieth level, but wizards or clerics get that sweet sweet 9th level at 17, in other words how do you stay useful in a party for three levels? while you can beat any caster on endurance the seventeenth level single caster still outshines your seventeenth,. so unless you start the campaign at twentieth you have to get carried by the team for a LOOOOONG time.

I decry the notion that you are carried or otherwise a drag on the party. An MT is still a caster, and casters dominate other classes in later levels period. So you can't hit an dickish broken combo of doom button, big deal. If the games a bit harder then well you are still a perfectly functional healbot to patch the party up from that bigger challenge.

[tarbrush]

In regard to True Necromancer. Yes, you can make viable TN builds with Ur priest, beholder mage and so forth. But they work because Ur priest is so good, not because TN is good. Losing two spell levels on either side of your progression is an enormous cost for little advantage over Mystic Theurge.

And on the subject of the mystic theurge, it also suffers hideously in comparison to a single string guy, because the single string guy can PrC. It seems wrong to compare a MT to a Wizard 20, when really he should be compared to a wizard11/fatespinner4/archmage5. MT hurts because you lose out on all the funk and flavour of the PrCs that do so much for making casting (more) interesting and powerful

[Golthur]

I decry the notion that you are carried or otherwise a drag on the party. An MT is still a caster, and casters dominate other classes in later levels period. So you can't hit an dickish broken combo of doom button, big deal. If the games a bit harder then well you are still a perfectly functional healbot to patch the party up from that bigger challenge.

Actually, MTs are pretty good at the "broken combo of doom", since they can pull off of both arcane and divine casting. It gives them more combo options. :amused:

[DiscipleofBob]

I'm trying to make one right now to replace my old character in a level 15 Eberron campaign. We needed a healer really badly, and I figure with the Mystic Theurge I won't need to save ALL my spells just to heal the tank.

[Anxe]

Compare spellcasters to a bunch of guys working out in a gym. The Mystic Theurge is that ripped guy on the Stairmaster lifting 50 pound dumbells in each hand. When I played one and the rest of the party was out of spells he was out of half of one of his classes. All prestige classes that give 2 spellcasting progressions are good. Just throw in Practiced Spellcaster to make it perfect.

EDIT: Jesus! Someone stole my avatar! Or something! Right above me!

[DiscipleofBob]

Compare spellcasters to a bunch of guys working out in a gym. The Mystic Theurge is that ripped guy on the Stairmaster lifting 50 pound dumbells in each hand. When I played one and the rest of the party was out of spells he was out of half of one of his classes. All prestige classes that give 2 spellcasting progressions are good. Just throw in Practiced Spellcaster to make it perfect.

EDIT: Jesus! Someone stole my avatar! Or something! Right above me!

lol. I only picked this avatar because I'm playing a swashbuckler in one game and didn't feel like going through the trouble for a custom avatar just yet.

[Ramza00]

lol. I only picked this avatar because I'm playing a swashbuckler in one game and didn't feel like going through the trouble for a custom avatar just yet.

Well you can always do some cheap editing of it (such as my avatar) to make it different :smallsmile: Changing the color of the boots is a place to start :smallwink:

[Aquillion]

The key thing to note about the Mystic Theurge is that they basically have one (and only one) useful bonus: They get many, many slots of lower-level spells. How much this is worth depends a lot on your DM and playstyle.

That is the sole reason to play a mystic theurge, though, unless you like the fluff. Some people talk about "having spells from two lists"; that is completely and utterly bunk. Arcane spells are drastically superior to divine ones; that is why clerics and druids get lots of other significant bonuses (decent BAB, turning, wild shape, domain bonuses/spells, some armor, access to all spells on their lists, etc) that wizards and sorcerers don't. Adding divine spells to an arcane caster is like giving them extra weapon proficiencies--totally pointless. You have better things to do with your actions. Likewise, if you want to make a divine caster and turn to MT instead, you're giving up all of those important divine-caster-class bonuses in exchange for becoming a sharply weakened weakened wizard.

(The one exception to the above is if there's one combo you want to make using spells from both domains; but there's almost always better ways to do that than to use MT. If you just want one particular arcane spell, you're better off taking a domain that grants it, or one with Anyspell or Limited Wish; if you think you can get the necessary spells, make an archivist; or you could make a wizard with that feat that lets you take a domain.)

This leads to the other key issue, and the real thing that kills the usefulness of a MT 90% of the time. In combat, you still only get one action per turn. Having lots of slots doesn't help you when you can still only cast one spell per turn. Having lots of spells to choose from doesn't help you when you can only cast one at once. Quicken? Sure, but that makes your lack of high-level slots to hurt you even more.

Finally, regarding the one thing the MT does well, the lots of slots low-level slots...

We needed a healer really badly, and I figure with the Mystic Theurge I won't need to save ALL my spells just to heal the tank.If that's your only concern, and you aren't really interested in the theme of a MT, consider just being a cleric or whatever, and buying a wand of CLW. It'll cover all your outside-of-combat healing (which should be all you need aside from the occasional screw-up); you'll be able to spontaneously convert spells if it's necessary to heal quickly in a fight, but hopefully you won't usually have to. The cost of CLW wands is negligible later on, while the cost of levels invested in MT is decidedly higher. Or play a wizard, and give the CLW wand to your bard, paladin, or whatever... heck, a rogue with a few ranks in UMD should have no trouble making it work reliably.

Seriously, if you only care about the mechanics, skip MT. Wands can get you the exact same effect as the extra low-level spell slots, and in the long run they'll be much, much cheaper at doing it.


Well you can always do some cheap editing of it (such as my avatar) to make it different :smallsmile: Changing the color of the boots is a place to start :smallwink:
I thought we weren't supposed to make edited versions of the default avatars?

[Guinaur]

Thanks for all the replies...

I am playing a Wizard 7/Cleric 3/ MT 10 build in my girlfriend's campaign. The reason is:
We dont have a REAL Divine or Arcane spellcaster in the group. My friend is playing a Sorcerer/Dragon Disiple/Fighter, My brother is playing a Barbarian/Berserker(I think), and my girlfriend's sister is playing a cowardly bard (she's new). My friend is using his character as a blaster-fighter with a huge-greatsword (we are using the old 3rd Ed Dragon-Disiple where he goes up a size catagory after a while) and fireballs. My girlfriend's sister is to new to really understand the magic of the game, so we dont rely on her spallcasting too much. We are about lvl 13 now, which is a first for us because I am our usual DM, and I lose interest in my own campaigns after about lvl 5 (shame on me, i know).

So, in this situation, do ya'all think my char is falid?

[RedScholarGypsy]

In a small group where you're the best source of arcane and divine spells, that's where the MT is at its best, though best probably should be in quotes in any other situation. It looks like a smart choice here.

[tainsouvra]

The key thing to note about the Mystic Theurge is that they basically have one (and only one) useful bonus: They get many, many slots of lower-level spells. Except that, as a small reminder, they are no more than one level lower under normal conditions, with equal or (usually) greater numbers from that point on.
How much this is worth depends a lot on your DM and playstyle. In this, though, I completely agree. I've seen DM's who honestly do let the players face so few encounters per day that a Wizard can count on having his highest-level spell available practically every time...and in such a scenario, a Mystic Theurge is simply inferior, no question.

When I DM, and with the groups I prefer, 4-5 encounters per day is a good baseline--sometimes more, sometimes less, you know how it goes. In that situation, believe it or not, a Mystic Theurge actually throws out the same average spell levels...and in situations where it's harder to rest, which is fun to throw at the players once in a while, a MT will actually have higher average spell levels being used due to others running dry nearly twice as fast.


Quicken? Sure, but that makes your lack of high-level slots to hurt you even more. I disagree completely. That is only the case in the "couple encounters per day" situation. Metamagic is no different from regular magic when it comes down to casts per day--a level 4 spell metaed up to level 6 is still a 6th-level spell, and should be compared like any other level 6 spell. It hurts exactly the same, assuming you're being hurt at all--which is not a given, it depends on your level range and party.

[Aquillion]

Except that, as a small reminder, they are no more than one level lower under normal conditions, with equal or (usually) greater numbers from that point on.???

You either got your math wrong or are talking about abusing early entrance tricks (which don't generally apply for advice in an actual game).

Assuming normal progression, a level 7 MT has 2nd level spells, while a pure wizard 7 would get 4th level spells. At level 8 the MT gets 3rd level spells, while at level 9 the wizard gets 5th level spells, and so on--at even levels the MT is one spell level behind, but at odd levels they're two levels behind. Being two spell levels behind is huge. Don't forget, too, that without wasting one of there extremely limited feats on practiced caster or something similar, they'll be casting those lower-level spells at a significant penalty to their CL, making it difficult to get past the SR or saves of anything of apporpriate CR.

And at higher levels, things get even worse for the MT. Unless they do something trickly like Archivist / Wizard, they're likely to end up losing bonus spells in one of their two progressions due to MAD--are they going to go for 20 in two stats to get 5th level bonus spells? 22, for sixth level spells? No matter how they divide it up, they're losing spells somewhere--at the highest level, where it hurts the most.

At very high levels it gets even worse--suddenly, your MT progression stops, and you're still behind in the one side you choose to continue. At level 20, you get one ninth level spell slot (to the normal wizard's four.) You've lost the other side's progression, so you are definitely behind in 8th level spells as well. Unless you wasted a precious feat, half of your progression is casting at a useless CL 13, while the other is casting at a limited CL 17.

As if that isn't enough, don't forget that arcane and divine spells are inequal in power. A wizard / cleric MT is always going to have fewer arcane spells than their full wizard counterpart. Do the extra spells from the weaker divine list make up for this? Especially when they've already given up most of the normal benefits divine casters get to make up for this? I don't think so.


When I DM, and with the groups I prefer, 4-5 encounters per day is a good baseline--sometimes more, sometimes less, you know how it goes. In that situation, believe it or not, a Mystic Theurge actually throws out the same average spell levels...and in situations where it's harder to rest, which is fun to throw at the players once in a while, a MT will actually have higher average spell levels being used due to others running dry nearly twice as fast.But 'average spell levels' doesn't mean anything when the growth of spell power is exponential. Two castings of Glitterdust from your level 7 MT does not equal one casting of Confusion, Fear, or Polymorph; no number of lower level spells can ever add up to enough to make up for not access to Teleport when you need it. A smart wizard can wrap a typical encounter up completely with one of their highest-level spells--sure, if you calculate the averages you'll find the wizard casts one level 4 spell and then a bunch of magic missiles, while the MT is casting their level 2 spells all day long, but the wizard switches down to magic missiles because that one level 4 shot won the battle, and everything else is just mopping up.


I disagree completely. That is only the case in the "couple encounters per day" situation. Metamagic is no different from regular magic when it comes down to casts per day--a level 4 spell metaed up to level 6 is still a 6th-level spell, and should be compared like any other level 6 spell. It hurts exactly the same, assuming you're being hurt at all--which is not a given, it depends on your level range and party.Oh really? Let's use our level 7 example again--the wizard is casting level 4 spells, while the MT... oh, wait, the MT can't quicken anything yet, since you need at least 5th level slots. All right, we'll advance a bit, to level 13. The MT can now quicken 1st level spells, casting grease or magic missiles fast. Let's say they cast grease + cloudkill; not a bad trick, although things will tend to save easily and at that level many things won't be affected by cloudkill anyway. Does that combo compare to, say, Limited Wish? Forcecage? Banishment? I think no.

Now, I don't want to give the wrong impression with all this--if someone wants to play a MT, sure, go ahead. Despite all the above, they're not an unplayable class by any means; they're still casters, after all. But people who play one should know what they're getting into; if you're taking MT and expect to be on even footing with other casters, forget it. If your character concept is a 'hedge wizard' or something that other casters don't take seriously, it's fine... but if you think the extra spell slots will give you some sort of mechanical advantage, the answer is no, 90% of the time they won't; and if your character concept is some sort of knowledgable magical generalist or a bookish, well-learned sage, the MT is not the class to look at (straight Archivist would fit that theme better, although you should talk with your DM to hammer out some sort of agreement on what scrolls will be available first.)

[DiscipleofBob]

Well you can always do some cheap editing of it (such as my avatar) to make it different :smallsmile: Changing the color of the boots is a place to start :smallwink:

Nah... If I do a custom avatar, I'll just make a stick version of my Ninja/Master Thrower who was a combination of Spider-Man and Batman... :smalltongue:



But back on topic, 2 feat slots for Practiced Spellcaster (one for each class) will take care of most of the problems that an MT'll face with power, so instead of one powerful arcane caster or one good healer, you have one slightly less powerful caster who can do both. Granted, this is pretty expensive, but I think the rewards are balanced and worth it (or at least I hope so when I start playing mine.)

[tainsouvra]

You either got your math wrong or are talking about abusing early entrance tricks (which don't generally apply for advice in an actual game). Neither. I just disagree with many of your assumptions about the power of magic.

I do not believe Divine spells are across-the-board in-every-way inferior as you appear to, they simply serve a different purpose. Using them the way you would Arcane is using a hammer to drive a screw, of course it doesn't work very well...but that doesn't make the hammer an inferior tool, either.

I also do not believe that lower level spells are without use. I find them exceptionally useful for utility and clever tricks--the non-sorcerer caster's strong suit--and honestly can't fathom how someone else wouldn't. We play very different campaigns it seems.

I would also like to reiterate my earlier point that, if you are only facing as many encounters as you have slots of your highest-level spell, then the DM is creating a situation that artificially inflates the power of a Wizard. Be sure to thank him for throwing 1-4 encounters per day, rather than 5, after your next adventure.

I also believe you are not being unbiased in that you compare the Mystic Theurge directly to a Wizard...of course the Wizard makes a better Wizard, that's the whole point of the class. That does not make him better across the board, though. You may be convinced, but I just don't buy it, my experience disagrees with yours.

[Jayabalard]

Well you can always do some cheap editing of it (such as my avatar) to make it different :smallsmile: Changing the color of the boots is a place to start :smallwink:Actually, Rich has asked that people not do that... it's in the rules:
Using copyrighted artwork as an avatar is technically illegal unless you have the permission of the copyright holder. Even if the art is modified in some way, the original copyright still stands and you can't use it as an avatar. Rich Burlew has specifically requested that people NOT use his OOTS art as avatar image, other than those he has specifically provided as the default message board avatars. If you want an OOTS-style avatar, there are many burgeoning avatar artists hanging around the Arts and Crafts forum who might make one for you.

[horseboy]

A buddy of mine plays a MT of We Jas in an LG campaign. He's everything you'd expect of the bastard offspring of Batman and CODzilla. I've seen him break at least one mod, and heard stories of several more. For the sneaky, this is a dangerous tool.

[Ramza00]

Actually, Rich has asked that people not do that... it's in the rules:
Oops I missed that, sorry, I will take it down in 24 hours, but first I am going to do a request in the Arts and Crafts forum to see if someone is willing to make me a new one.

I didn't mean any malice, yet at the same time rules are rules.

[Aquillion]

Neither. I just disagree with many of your assumptions about the power of magic.I was talking about your assertion that the MT is at most one spell level behind. A lot of the rest of this is opinion, but that was simply incorrect; on odd levels, a full caster will be two spell levels ahead of the MT, not one, and after entering MT, they are always going to be at least one spell level behind for every level below 20. Being two spell levels behind is a much more serious problem than being one spell level behind. For most builds (if you were worried about things like that) it would be considered a crippling flaw, something you would need massive bonuses to offset.


I do not believe Divine spells are across-the-board in-every-way inferior as you appear to, they simply serve a different purpose. Using them the way you would Arcane is using a hammer to drive a screw, of course it doesn't work very well...but that doesn't make the hammer an inferior tool, either.Oh, I do agree that Divine caster spells have their uses. They let you buff yourself, for going into combat in the armor and using the decent BAB you get from being a member of a divine class. They let you heal. When it comes to spending your precious combat actions, though, someone without the advantages of armored casting and decent BAB is always going to want divine spells over arcane ones when given the option. Always. Divine spells are generally meant to be used by sturdy partial-fighter-types near the front lines, while arcane spells are meant to be used from the back rows to keep control of combat; combining them in a build is like welding your screwdriver to your hammer. Sure, you can do it, but why?


I also do not believe that lower level spells are without use. I find them exceptionally useful for utility and clever tricks--the non-sorcerer caster's strong suit--and honestly can't fathom how someone else wouldn't. We play very different campaigns it seems.You are dodging the issue. Nobody would say that lower level spells are totally without use; but the gap between "has its uses" and "worth centering your build around" is extremely wide. Two second-level spells are not anywhere near a fourth-level spell in power; they're not even playing in the same universe, power-wise. A quickened first-level spell is not equivilant in power to a seventh-level spell.


I would also like to reiterate my earlier point that, if you are only facing as many encounters as you have slots of your highest-level spell, then the DM is creating a situation that artificially inflates the power of a Wizard. Be sure to thank him for throwing 1-4 encounters per day, rather than 5, after your next adventure.I think you have a typo there; you meant to type "slots of your two highest-level spells", didn't you? That's what the MT is losing out on, half the time; and even the other half of the time, the wizard will get two extra spells on the second-highest level, enough to put them ahead of the MT if the MT failed to get bonus spells, or to put them even at that level if the MT only got one (quite likely with two casting stats to focus on).

A high-level wizard who uses one of those spells thoughtfully can essentially resolve the majority of encounters, or at least give their side an insurmountable advantage. On an odd level, with bonus spells? Why, yes, that's 3 + 2 = enough to handle five encounters a day using entirely spells the MT doesn't get. A caster shouldn't have to pull out the big guns on every single fight, of course (throwing around spells on an encounter you're winning anyway is silly), but by your own numbers they could if they wanted to.

You complained about the fact that I was comparing the MT to the wizard; that was me being nice. In comparison to the cleric, they lose out even worse, since they're giving up important advantages beyond those 1.5 levels of spells.

Now... like I said above, there's nothing wrong with playing a MT if you feel like it. If your group doesn't like optimizing (and from the sound of it, yours doesn't), I'm sure it could be a lot of fun. But if you want to talk crunch and argue over which class has a power rating of over NINE THOUSAAAAND?! No, the MT doesn't cut it. Giving up the a large chunk of your capabilities as a wizard so you can sometimes be an underpowered cleric is a bad move; giving up basically all your important capabilities as a cleric so you can sometimes play an underpowered wizard is even worse.

[tainsouvra]

I was talking about your assertion that the MT is at most one spell level behind. Ah, then you are correct. Sorry for the confusion.
Oh, I do agree that Divine caster spells have their uses. They let you buff yourself, for going into combat in the armor and using the decent BAB you get from being a member of a divine class. They let you heal. I was more thinking about buffing others rather than buffing myself, though. The only self-buffs I've bothered with on characters like this are defensive and evasive in nature...but you can arrange a pretty impressive degree of party-buffing, much of which will last a long time, with a Mystic Theurge who uses most of his lower-level slots this way. It's really one of the better uses for those extra casts per day, too.
When it comes to spending your precious combat actions, though, someone without the advantages of armored casting and decent BAB is always going to want divine spells over arcane ones when given the option. Always. I agree. I usually don't use Divine magic in combat that way, Arcane does the disruption/offensive casting better in most cases.
Divine spells are generally meant to be used by sturdy fighter-types near the front lines, while arcane spells are meant to be used from the back rows to keep control of combat; combining them in a build is like welding your screwdriver to your hammer. Sure, you can do it, but why? I disagree a bit. I would rephrase that as...
Divine spells are generally meant to be used ON sturdy partial-fighter-types near the front lines, while arcane spells are meant to be used from the back rows to keep control of combat

Additionally, I'm surprised you get the option of a front and back line, unless you were being figurative here. Opponents in my campaigns don't let those arcane casters stand out of the fight, they need to be ready to defend and elude.
You are dodging the issue. Nobody would say that lower level spells are totally without use; but the gap between "has its uses" and "worth centering your build around" is extremely wide. Two second-level spells are not anywhere near a fourth-level spell in power I'm not dodging the issue so much as being (unintentionally, I'm sure) misinterpreted. I agree that lv2+lv2!=lv4, but would argue that they are approximately worth a third-level spell, and sometimes more depending on what you're doing with them. Different in application during a given combat round, to be sure, but in terms of overall usefulness to the character.
You complained about the fact that I was comparing the MT to the wizard; that was me being nice. In comparison to the cleric, they lose out even worse, since they're giving up important advantages beyond those 1.5 levels of spells. This is the same mistake as you made with the Wizard, though. You are comparing part of one class against the entirety of another class. Of course it comes out behind...that isn't the point of the class in the first place.
If your group doesn't like optimizing (and from the sound of it, yours doesn't), I'm sure it could be a lot of fun. [bravado posturing] My group could take on your group!

Really, though, that was a silly thing to say. :smalltongue:
But if you want to talk crunch and argue over which class has a power rating of over NINE THOUSAAAAND?! No, the MT doesn't cut it. Giving up the a large chunk of your capabilities as a wizard so you can sometimes be an underpowered cleric is a bad move; giving up basically all your important capabilities as a cleric so you can sometimes play an underpowered wizard is even worse. If you play a Mystic Theurge as a Wizard, he will be underpowered.

If you play a Mystic Theurge as a Cleric, he will be underpowered.

If you play a Mystic Theurge as a Mystic Theurge, you might be surprised.