Questionable Situation

[Armyman2287]

Hey everyone,

So recently my DM hinted we might be getting shot at by cannons soon in our game. And I started to wonder, could if i had the right character and items and such stop a cannon ball in midflight with pure force or spells or items, or something. I discussed this with him a lot, but I thought I'd ask is anyone has any plausible ideas.

My character is a Gnome Rogue, with a pretty high strenth score.

Thanks

[Ninja_Prawn]

Hey everyone,

So recently my DM hinted we might be getting shot at by cannons soon in our game. And I started to wonder, could if i had the right character and items and such stop a cannon ball in midflight with pure force or spells or items, or something. I discussed this with him a lot, but I thought I'd ask is anyone has any plausible ideas.

My character is a Gnome Rogue, with a pretty high strenth score.

Thanks

Spells like Wall of Stone and Wall of Force ought to stop a couple of cannonballs. Or go all Portal on them with Arcane Gate! Reverse Gravity could also cause the gunners some trouble... As a rogue, your options are more limited; you shouldn't have much trouble dodging cannonballs, but that won't protect your allies.

To some extent, it also depends on how your DM is implementing cannons. Are they an area-effect Dex save or an attack roll? If it's an attack roll, a monk could potentially use Deflect Missiles, which would be epic.

[MrStabby]

Do you need to stop the cannonball in mid flight? Or are you better off using a firebolt to set off their gunpowder reserves?

[Asmotherion]

-Wall of Force stops everything.
-Shield Spell might or might not work, depending on whether he makes them be an attack roll or a line effect.
-Arcane Gate to have the cannon ball go right back at them.
-Bear Totem Barbarian to tank it like a pro, and look awesome because you took a canon ball like it was nothing.
-Stoneskin is effective if you're going to be targeted more than once.
-If it gets to be a save, you should not be worried: It's probably going to be a Dexterity Save, and nobody passes Dexterity Saves better than a Rogue. You can also sneak in the foe's camp and use their gunpowder reserves to blow them up as you leave the place like a boss.

[Knaight]

Cannons generally don't make sense as something used to target just one person, so not standing in battle formations is probably the best defense. Absent that there's always hiding. If the context is naval (or airship related) that's less of an option, in which case I'll just point out that ranged weapons are a thing and that cannons need to be fired. Readied actions to take people out when they approach a cannon could help - particularly if your DM takes corpses getting in the way of things into consideration.

[Hrugner]

All of these require the DM being on board with the idea of interacting with objects in flight, and most require you readying your action in anticipation of the cannonball.

A monk could deflect arrows the cannon ball and throw it back if you were large enough to hold the cannonball in one hand. With a willing DM you could use telekinesis to stop the ball midair, but the DM would need to be flexible on the rules for a ready action. If your DM treats enlarged objects as retaining the same amount of force rather than speed, you should be able to slow a cannon ball down considerably by enlarging it thus shortening its distance traveled. Disintegrate would word as well. You could animate object the cannonball and instruct it to hover where it is or drop to the ground. You could stop it with a well timed tiny hut, but that seems impractical. You could use mold earth to raise a 5 foot barricade in the way of the cannonball. A well placed rope trick could also block a shot if the balls were being arched at a high enough angle. Thunderwave could deflect the ball as well. The wall spells should all work as well, mostly anyway.

Really though, if your DM is letting you attack or cast on a projectile, then you should be able to shove the ball right before it hits you and drop it to the ground in front of you. It would be a silly game.

[Knaight]

All of these require the DM being on board with the idea of interacting with objects in flight, and most require you readying your action in anticipation of the cannonball.

Readying an action to shoot anyone who tries to use the cannon doesn't require that.

[Hrugner]

Readying an action to shoot anyone who tries to use the cannon doesn't require that.

That was meant as a forward for my list of actions that could be used to stop a cannon shot in flight, which I think is what the poster asked.

[Laserlight]

Historically, it wasn't uncommon for someone to see a cannonball rolling along the ground and try to stop it...and lose their foot. Might want to find out what effect the cannonball will have. As a DM, I'd think about making it a line "Save or Die".

[Mith]

Really though, if your DM is letting you attack or cast on a projectile, then you should be able to shove the ball right before it hits you and drop it to the ground in front of you. It would be a silly game

That Shove would be an Athletics check You would be sure to lose.


Historically, it wasn't uncommon for someone to see a cannonball rolling along the ground and try to stop it...and lose their foot. Might want to find out what effect the cannonball will have. As a DM, I'd think about making it a line "Save or Die".

While I agree that a cannonball would be a Save or Die, I would potentially allow a character to who is has Deflect Missiles in some form or another make serious Athletics to deflect the cannonball at the risk of lose of limb and Disadvantage on all Saving Throws. So they won't be making the next Deflect either.

Yes it's unrealistic in the extreme, but a high level character can have an Epic Moment of Awesome if they are willing to take the risks IMO.

[Talamare]

Historically, People died when they were stabbed with Swords

Yet here is my Barbarian who has been stabbed literally 200x and is still standing up just fine

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Beware, they may be firing grape shot

[Alejandro]

Beware, they may be firing grape shot

This. Or chain shot. I'd much rather take the chance with a simple round cannonball.

[lunaticfringe]

Historically, it wasn't uncommon for someone to see a cannonball rolling along the ground and try to stop it...and lose their foot. Might want to find out what effect the cannonball will have. As a DM, I'd think about making it a line "Save or Die".

I'm pretty sure it was uncommon. Cannonballs or Solid Shot are solid projectiles that don't contain explosive charges. Shells explode.

[Vogonjeltz]

Hey everyone,

So recently my DM hinted we might be getting shot at by cannons soon in our game. And I started to wonder, could if i had the right character and items and such stop a cannon ball in midflight with pure force or spells or items, or something. I discussed this with him a lot, but I thought I'd ask is anyone has any plausible ideas.

My character is a Gnome Rogue, with a pretty high strenth score.

Thanks

For your gnome rogue? No, I don't think you have any options in that regard, better to use stealth and avoid being a target in the first place.

Now, for a Monk, yes possibly.
I direct you to the Deflect Missiles ability, PHB page 78; "when you are hit by a ranged weapon attack".

Cannons are ranged weapons, so the ability would work on it. The only question for catching (and then returning fire if so desired) would be if the missile is small enough to fit in one hand. Most cannonballs aren't bigger than a bowling ball, so I'd say yes.

[Asmotherion]

Historically, People died when they were stabbed with Swords

Yet here is my Barbarian who has been stabbed literally 200x and is still standing up just fine

Exactly. If we were to bring Exact physics as a mechanic, the game would turn into an initiative roll-die game. Most attacks, if used in real life would be lethal, or at least cripling to a point of being a one-hit KO. The only thing that would matter is AC for dodging attacks and Initiative, making Dex the only really important ability score (Which is kinda already over-buffed in 5e)

Let's suppose you get stabbed or slashed by a sword. Realism would imply that you'd either die, or at least need severe medical attention to survive, and in the case of slashing, you'd most likely loose a limb. And a 6 second treatment with a first aid kit would definitelly not put you out of danger from dieing.

If you were to take a Firebolt (or a molotov, if you want a realistic counterpart), you'd either die, or become heavily deformed by the fire, and go to the hospital carryed in an ambulance.

People have survived being struck by lightning, true... but that's a 1 in a thousand case, and it's probably not a good idea to test it.

An eldritch blast, disintegrade or force effect in general could be the counterpart of a real-life direct-energy weapon... You know, the new military technology that can down aircrafts with one hit. Imagine what it could potentially do to a human being. My bet is on complete disintegration, and you wouldn't be allowed the Dexterity save either. Why? Because the thing is fast enough to perciesly target a flying-at-full-speed supersonic aircraft and destroy it.

And how much cold do you think the body can handle? I'm sure an effect like Frostbite, that creates ice on the target should at least force a constitution save were you would have a heart attack and die if you failed, in realistic Physics.

The point is that, wile all this is true, adventurers are people who have overcome the human(oid) limits, and trancended to something superior: classed individuals. Thus, the amound of damage listed is translated in a number of Dice, and it's accuracy is calculated on a D20 roll, providing the random factor that not 2 bullets for example will do the same amound of dammage; One might do a flesh wound, and continue it's way, one may hit a muscle, wile an other might hit a vital organ (witch would be the case on a critical hit). A Villager, with only one HD would probably be killed by such an effect in a single hit. A classed character however, due to his training has developed a super-humanoid tolerance to damage, wich is translated in more HD.

On Slashing Dammage: Wile you do take damage, it's always assumed that you partially dodge the slashing, even if it hits you. The damage you take is always a flesh wound, and does not amputate you, unless otherwise noted.

Similarly, Bludgeoning damage will bruise you, but will rarelly break a bone for the same reason.

Wile piercing damage does indeed stab you, it's assumed to do so at non-vital points, and not deeper than 3-4 inches... enoigh to leave a scar, but not to kill you outright.

Fire, Lightning, Acid, Radiant and Ice may leave a burn, but won't deform you unless it's RP intended (witch some DMs do, generally out of battle, as a save or suck effect). Force may leave a bruce, or even a flesh wound, but won't make your body or limb explode in a gorry visual effect unless the DM intends it this way. Necrotic damage won't cause necrossis to your limbs... perhaps to a hit spot on your skin only, till you regain some hp... then it will probably only leave a scar. Thunder won't make you deaf permanently, or cause you internal bleeding, but you will feel the pain in your body, and your hearing will likelly be fuzzy for a wile, even if you save the deafening effect. Psychic should not drive your Character mad, or anything (unless if you play with the variant ability score: sanity I suppose), but should at least have you feel crappy, and wile recovering you may suffer of a shattered morality and perhaps a minor depression. Massive damage might mentally scar you, such as subconsiously developing an appropriate phobia, but as always, that's DM dependant.

[Mith]

I'm pretty sure it was uncommon. Cannonballs or Solid Shot are solid projectiles that don't contain explosive charges. Shells explode.

It doesn't have to explode. Solid shot moving through the same space as your leg will generally keep moving through the same space that your leg occupies. There is enough momentum that your leg will not survive impact.

[Arkhios]

Cannons are ranged weapons

But are they, really? You aim and ignite the fuse, but an actual attack with you controlling the flight path is questionable. When a cannon fires, if you're in physical contact with it, you'll be injured by the sheer force of recoil.

I would argue that aiming a cannon is more like aiming a fireball or lightning bolt. In fact, lightning bolt would make effectively more sense as the cannonball doesn't explode but instead hits anything in its path until its momentum is gone. If a cannon isn't already designed in DMG (I'm AFB), I would make it deal bludgeoning damage equivalent to at least a 3rd level lightning bolt, with perhaps equal range, or double that.

[Finback]

A monk could deflect arrows the cannon ball and throw it back if you were large enough to hold the cannonball in one hand.

I cannot think whether it was in animation or a book, but I remember a battle where a monk was able to *deflect* the cannonball; as it came into contact, they cradled it in their arm, simply shifting the direction of the ball around them, until it was heading back in the direction it came from. OK, might require a damn good Acrobatics check, but for a high enough level character, I could see this being something a monk could do.



... well, I just googled up "deflected cannonball". It was Kung Fu Panda 2.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMf-QDjirlU

[Alejandro]

But are they, really? You aim and ignite the fuse, but an actual attack with you controlling the flight path is questionable. When a cannon fires, if you're in physical contact with it, you'll be injured by the sheer force of recoil.

I would argue that aiming a cannon is more like aiming a fireball or lightning bolt. In fact, lightning bolt would make effectively more sense as the cannonball doesn't explode but instead hits anything in its path until its momentum is gone. If a cannon isn't already designed in DMG (I'm AFB), I would make it deal bludgeoning damage equivalent to at least a 3rd level lightning bolt, with perhaps equal range, or double that.

It's a good debate. Against general, man sized targets, you don't aim at anyone specific. It's an area effect weapon, just like (as you said) Lightning Bolt. And like Lightning Bolt, the cannon shot works best against grouped up foes.

If you were trying to hit a very large target, like an enemy sailing ship, a fortress wall, or (for D&D) an approaching giant or hobgoblin siege tower, then I'd probably do an actual attack roll to hit, but I would not have the PC firing the cannon apply Dex, but rather Intelligence.

[Arkhios]

It's a good debate. Against general, man sized targets, you don't aim at anyone specific. It's an area effect weapon, just like (as you said) Lightning Bolt. And like Lightning Bolt, the cannon shot works best against grouped up foes.

If you were trying to hit a very large target, like an enemy sailing ship, a fortress wall, or (for D&D) an approaching giant or hobgoblin siege tower, then I'd probably do an actual attack roll to hit, but I would not have the PC firing the cannon apply Dex, but rather Intelligence.

You, too, make a compelling argument. Indeed, an attack against a very large target (such as enemy ship) could be more appropriate than a save. But since you could do both with a cannon, it doesn't qualify as a Ranged Weapon. Instead I would say it falls into a new weapon category (e.g. Siege Weapon) and I agree, the attack roll would make a lot of sense if made by using Intelligence.
In fact, I would say that the Saving Throw DC for such an effect would be equal to 8 + your Proficiency Bonus + Your Intelligence Modifier

[Alejandro]

As far as stopping a cannonball in mid flight, Wall of Force is your best bet, as is any other spell that can take the hit for you or create or summon something big enough to get in the way. You'd be better off attacking the cannon itself to make it stop firing.

[Vogonjeltz]

But are they, really?

Yes, they are, really.

DMG 255, Siege Equipment, Cannon: "Cannon Ball. Ranged Weapon Attack:"

Feel free to change it for your game, but my answer was.......wait for it....Canon. ;)

[Arkhios]

Yes, they are, really.

DMG 255, Siege Equipment, Cannon: "Cannon Ball. Ranged Weapon Attack:"

Feel free to change it for your game, but my answer was.......wait for it....Canon. ;)

Yeah, for some reason, when I looked it up from DMG I couldn't find it at first.

Anyway, DMG version makes little sense... How would a cannon ball just stop after a first hit? The force is just so great that it would more likely just pass through.