So I was told I'm playing a level 16druid/2monk

[Ofmossandmoose]

This is for a home pathfinder game.

So help me out here, I've been assigned a character, either 10 lvl monk with 68000gp or a druid 16/monk 2 with little to no gear. And probably only memorized spells available(at least for now).

Stats
str 15
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 13
Wiz 18
Cha 8

Half-orc

Will get a tomb that raises 1 stat of my choosing by +5

No level 9 spells

Campaign is on an island, terrain is very rocky and mountainous.

...and fighting invading paladins

Thinking add racial+2 to Str. and tomb +5 to Wis, any added points from levels to either Dex or Str.

[JNAProductions]

I'd probably go Druid. You'll kick more ass than as a Monk.

[Malroth]

only physical stat that matters for a druid is Con, everything else can be replaced with a well chosen wildshape form.



unless this is pathfinder then yes your racial floating stat bonus should go to STR or WIS .

[gorfnab]

First some handbooks
The Druid Hanbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=940.0)
Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?439991-Being-Everything-Eggynack-s-Comprehensive-Druid-Handbook)

Wildshape will be a great asset to you defending an island, especially with 16 levels of Druid. You'll have a wide arrange of forms that can fly, swim, and grapple. With the right Wildshape feats you can gain even more utility and other options.

If you're good aligned and getting little to no gear you could almost consider Vow of Poverty, it depends on the campaign though.

[Ualaa]

I'm a lot more familiar with Pathfinder than 3.5.
You didn't specify which you were playing, so I will assume 3.5.

Monk is going to give you evasion.
And three good saves, for their two levels.
And Wisdom to AC.

Druid is the chasis.
You'll be making natural attacks, not unarmed strikes/flurry of blows, so the Monk contribution effectively stops with the above three.
If you're playing 3.5, then you retain your mental stats but get the physical stats of your wildshape.
Your hit points are set, I believe, so you'll not want to have dumped CON.

If you're playing Pathfinder, you get a bonus to your attributes based on the form you take.
But you use your own attributes.
In this case, you could go with a lot of STR or a lot of DEX.
STR would be for melee forms, but you can go with small forms and DEX in conjunction with Weapon Finesse.

Either system, take the equivalent of Magical Knack.
So your Druid level counts as two levels higher, for durations/area/caster level vs spell resistance etc.
It won't get you the higher level spells, as opposed to being a Druid 18 would.
But it still helps a lot.

You have the option of being a pure caster, just play as a Druid 16... not 18.
Your armor is increased, as a Dodge bonus, by your WIS mod.
WIS is your casting stat.
As an Air Elemental, you are effectively an orbital bombardment station.
You can cast while Wildshaped, and be 80 ft. in the air, with a very good armor class against touch based attacks.
The Druid list isn't as good as the Wizard's, but it is still a decent list.
You have heals, nukes and buffs.
You can summon like crazy, for a form of battlefield control.
You can place walls, pits and such for more battlefield control, along with effects that block line of sight.
If you're playing Pathfinder, the Eagle Domain will get your Improved Evasion while flying (long before Druid 16).

[animewatcha]

Why would paladins be invading would be a good question. If shenanigans reasons ( blatent disregard of their code, etc. while still keeping paladin abilities ), then this has simple solution. Pick druid. Go into flying form. Choose a different island to inhabit. Wildshape lasts hour a level right?

[Psyren]

only physical stat that matters for a druid is Con, everything else can be replaced with a well chosen wildshape form.



unless this is pathfinder then yes your racial floating stat bonus should go to STR or WIS .


I'm a lot more familiar with Pathfinder than 3.5.
You didn't specify which you were playing, so I will assume 3.5.


I'm guessing he's playing PF because he said:



Thinking add racial+2 to Str.

Only in PF is this a choice, half-orcs in 3.5 get a mandatory +2 Str.

[Korahir]

Why would paladins be invading would be a good question. If shenanigans reasons ( blatent disregard of their code, etc. while still keeping paladin abilities ), then this has simple solution. Pick druid. Go into flying form. Choose a different island to inhabit. Wildshape lasts hour a level right?

How exactly is overthrowing a presumably evil leadership or extinguishing a route of evil violating a paladin's code of conduct? If the invaded island is inhabited by peaceloving NG commoners forget what i said, in many other case there might be a reason (CN pirates i.e.),.

On topic:
Druid every time. More fun to play all around.

[Eisfalken]

Actually, druid/monk is pretty viable. Evasion is nothing at all to sneeze at (especially since it may save you from a save-or-get-screwed spell), and if he can't wild shape for some reason his spells can still be applied to his fists. As monk, take Improved Grapple and Combat Reflexes; you can use those in wild shape form, too. Natural Spell lets you cast in wild shape form. Normal useful metamagic like Extend and Persist applies here.

As for the lack of gear, you shouldn't need it with the right feats, spells, and wild shape form. You need to look for good takedown combos, take out isolated stragglers, just play it smart and you'll acquire your gear the old fashioned way: by beating up other things and taking their lunch money.

[Knaight]

Druid. Playing a way underleveled character trying to catch up with gear is just going to get frustrating.

[Ofmossandmoose]

I figured, go with the druid... I was planning on trying to be more melee based then spells since the rest of the party are wizards or straight druids.

The reason we are fighting paladins is we are in a religious war.

[Ofmossandmoose]

PS I can move the numbers around if a different stat spread is needed bit that's the numbers.

[Ofmossandmoose]

If I'm a wildshaping melee person... There's probably no benifits to something like the toothy orc trait since if I want to bite I got better options?

[Ualaa]

Assuming this is Pathfinder.
As a Druid 16 / Monk 2...

You can be a wildshape melee, either Dex based (small forms) or Str based (larger forms).
Monk will help with the AC.
As would Barkskin or the like.

You could also be an orbital damage station.
Whether you focus on control effects and summons (I personally would prefer this).
Or blast effects from space (above the field of battle, anyway).

If you're pathfinder, for the control guy.
Spell Focus Conjuration (Not bad, on it's own meh) > Augment Summoning (+4 STR & CON, for summons) > Superior Summoning (+1 summoned creature, when you summon SNA rank or two back so are rolling for multiples... doesn't apply to your highest SNA where you always get one summoned creature).
The sweet spot will be (D3 base) D3+1 (one SNA rank back) generally over the (D4+1 base) D4+2 options.

Magical Knack: Druid, is full caster level, for any calculation based off of caster level.
That is not spell progression, because you're not Druid 18.
But if your spell is +1 per 3 caster levels, you count as 18th not 16th, so would be +6 not +5 with magical knack.

Shaping Focus - not getting full bang for buck here, but it will still add +2 to your wildshape ability. You count as a druid four levels higher, for wildshape purposes (need Knowledge Nature 5 ranks, should be maxed anyway)... to a maximum of your actual character level.
As a Druid 5, who had four levels in non-Wildshape classes, you could assume Huge Forms (gained at Druid 8) if you had Shaping Focus... or as a Druid 8, with Shaping Focus, and being at least a 12th level character, you could take an Elemental Form... you get the idea.
That's going to add two hours to your Wildshape duration, and give one extra use per day, if you find you're limited in that regard.

[Eldariel]

Wisdom is obviously the ur-stat either way, particularly since you can even use it in combat. The more spells and the higher save DCs, the better. Even given your melee focus, against an army employing some area spells should be the first move. For instance, you have the caster level to create a tornado with Control Winds (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/control-winds), and the ramifications of an Earthquake (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/earthquake) should not be underestimated either - note that the pinning effects can't be avoided via. save so cliffs or caverns are convenient. There's also Control Weather (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/control-weather). You also have more local spells like Reverse Gravity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/r/reverse-gravity), Antilife Shell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/antilife-shell), Greater Black Tentacles (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/black-tentacles), Ice Storm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/ice-storm), Wall of Stone (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/wall-of-stone), Plant Growth (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/plant-growth), etc.

Sadly Giant Vermin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/giant-vermin) got hit with a huge nerfbat; instead of this beast (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monstrousScorpion.htm#MonstrousScorpionColossal) you just get a bunch of these (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/scorpion/scorpion-giant). Not worth the effort unless the Paladins are level 0s. Some of the Summon Nature's Ally (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/summon-natures-ally)-options meanwhile are quite impressive, if not nearly as good as their Summon Monster counterparts (a weird change in Pathfinder all things considered).


For your martial prowess, don't forget Greater Magic Fang (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/magic-fang) on all your natural weapons nor Barkskin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/barkskin) and the various buff spells on yourself and your allies. Also don't forget Air Walk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/air-walk), Animal Growth (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/animal-growth), Freedom of Movement (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/freedom-of-movement), Legendary Proportions (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/legendary-proportions) or the like. Buff up to high heavens before delving in and be prepared to not engage martially if it seems like a losing proposition; your greatest strength are always your spells no matter how good you are in melee (mostly because no amount of melee prowess is as good as spellcasting).

If you have preparatory time, you can do stuff like Awaken (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/awaken) some defenders for the area, Entice Fey (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/entice-fey-lesser) for some useful underlings (Pixies (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/pixie) with Irresistible Dance for instance), Liveoak (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/liveoak) for some muscle, etc. You can also shape the terrain as you see fit; create ditches, walls or whatever you feel would be convenient in the coming battles.


Far as your choices go, I'd have:
18 Wis, +2 Racial, +5 Tome, +3 levels for a total of 28 before buff spells (Owl's Wisdom puts you at 32 for ~18 mins).
16 Str, 15 Con (+1 level for 16), 12 Dex, 13 Int, 8 Cha

This puts you at 16 Str/12 Dex/16 Con/13 Int/28 Wis/8 Cha, which is pretty good all things considered. +9 to spell save DCs, lots of slots and of course, great perception/will-saves/etc. Sufficient martial prowess once you add spells and shapeshifting to it. And you can fly, burrow or earth glide as you see fit giving you lots of options for combat forms. Remember your spontaneous Summon Nature's Ally conversions - they're not always amazing, but should be kept in mind for when the circumstances call for a Purple Worm or something.

[Ofmossandmoose]

It's pathfinder, I edited first post to reflect this

[Stealth Marmot]

18th level character or a 10th level character with 68k in goods.

Sorry, but 8 levels wins out here. Especially since 2 levels in monk can turn your wild shape into a much more literal Beast Mode.

[Eisfalken]

If I'm a wildshaping melee person... There's probably no benifits to something like the toothy orc trait since if I want to bite I got better options?

Yeah, you won't really need a bite attack since your real power comes from alternate forms and spells.

You need Wis 18 to cast 8th-level spells, everything else goes to Con, Dex, Str, and Int in that order. Dump Cha hard; you will probably never ever need it (presuming someone else is pulling "face" duty). Max out Concentration, Listen and Spot, grab 5 ranks of Survival (which should make it relatively easy to survive in the wild on your own), then grab whatever looks good (few ranks of Spellcraft just so you know what other casters are doing, Knowledge (geography) to navigate, etc.).

If you want melee combat, I'd go with the feats Improved Initiative, Natural Spell, Powerful Charge, Greater Powerful Charge, then consider going Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Shock Trooper (presuming you didn't dump Str too hard). This is a basic charging build which works great with a lot of your animal options. Scan through Spell Compendium for some tasty spells to help you in combat; I think you'll find crabwalk and lion's charge particularly useful. The best animal form at your level for a charging build is probably triceratops, assuming you have enough room to maneuver with it. If not, at the very least you can go dire tiger.

If your DM allows it, you might consider going druidic avenger from UA, trading in animal companion and spontaneous casting for fast movement and rage 3/day. But a lot of folks swear by both that animal companion (which can be pretty spiffy at your level) and being able to call up djinn and all kinds of other nasty SNA stuff. I just noted that you wanted to focus entirely on melee it seemed, so maybe you don't mind ditching all the extras for a little boost here and there.

After that, everything should be good. You can slam into targets either with fists or claws or whatever, and you should have plenty of magic to get you close to targets so they can't just get away. One good trick is, just before you do your "rapid charge attack" above, you or someone else throw out entangle and some other battlefield control to tie up targets so they can't get away. This also helps hold them down so your buddies can get ranged attacks on them easier, and allows you to slam into new foes each turn you have a clear line to charge in.

Talk to the other players, make sure they know what you do, how you do it, how they can help you, and how you can help them. The good news is, at that level, you can stay wild shaped for your entire time awake; only time you really have to be a half-orc is when you're asleep, and technically not even then if you save a wild shape attempt for when you rest (maybe a dire tortoise or something else heavily armored).

[Korahir]

Yeah, you won't really need a bite attack since your real power comes from alternate forms and spells.

You need Wis 18 to cast 8th-level spells, everything else goes to Con, Dex, Str, and Int in that order. Dump Cha hard; you will probably never ever need it (presuming someone else is pulling "face" duty). Max out Concentration, Listen and Spot, grab 5 ranks of Survival (which should make it relatively easy to survive in the wild on your own), then grab whatever looks good (few ranks of Spellcraft just so you know what other casters are doing, Knowledge (geography) to navigate, etc.).

If you want melee combat, I'd go with the feats Improved Initiative, Natural Spell, Powerful Charge, Greater Powerful Charge, then consider going Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Shock Trooper (presuming you didn't dump Str too hard). This is a basic charging build which works great with a lot of your animal options. Scan through Spell Compendium for some tasty spells to help you in combat; I think you'll find crabwalk and lion's charge particularly useful. The best animal form at your level for a charging build is probably triceratops, assuming you have enough room to maneuver with it. If not, at the very least you can go dire tiger.

If your DM allows it, you might consider going druidic avenger from UA, trading in animal companion and spontaneous casting for fast movement and rage 3/day. But a lot of folks swear by both that animal companion (which can be pretty spiffy at your level) and being able to call up djinn and all kinds of other nasty SNA stuff. I just noted that you wanted to focus entirely on melee it seemed, so maybe you don't mind ditching all the extras for a little boost here and there.

After that, everything should be good. You can slam into targets either with fists or claws or whatever, and you should have plenty of magic to get you close to targets so they can't just get away. One good trick is, just before you do your "rapid charge attack" above, you or someone else throw out entangle and some other battlefield control to tie up targets so they can't get away. This also helps hold them down so your buddies can get ranged attacks on them easier, and allows you to slam into new foes each turn you have a clear line to charge in.

Talk to the other players, make sure they know what you do, how you do it, how they can help you, and how you can help them. The good news is, at that level, you can stay wild shaped for your entire time awake; only time you really have to be a half-orc is when you're asleep, and technically not even then if you save a wild shape attempt for when you rest (maybe a dire tortoise or something else heavily armored).



This is for a home pathfinder game.

Thread isn't tagged PF. OP inserted that later on I think. Still a lot of good advice in your post, Eisfalken, just some things that aren't PF.

[Ofmossandmoose]

So I have to have this build by tonight, I'm going in blind to a highly customized GM's campaign.

So other characters are either druid or wizards around level 16... I'm also a noob at of. So I'm trying to learn mechanics and build all at once.

[Ofmossandmoose]

Reading the druid build guides i see for a wildshaping melee character in order of priority, str, dex, con, Wis, int, cha... Would that change because of the Wis to Ac of the monk?

Maybe, Wis, str, con,dex,int, cha?

[Eldariel]

Reading the druid build guides i see for a wildshaping melee character in order of priority, str, dex, con, Wis, int, cha... Would that change because of the Wis to Ac of the monk?

Maybe, Wis, str, con,dex,int, cha?

I recommend always prioritising casting stat on full casters, even if you also fight. Doubly so if you can also use it for AC. Without capped Wisdom, you'll have fewer spells per day which has direct implications on your combat prowess. It also makes your offensive spells far less impressive. You can buff your martial abilities with spells, but you can't get more spells or higher save DCs with martial abilities. Thus, in character creation, prioritise spells, spell slots, spell save DCs, etc. (conveniently all off Wis)

As such, I'll repeat my suggestion from the earlier:
28 Wis = 18 Wis + 2 Racial + 3 Levels + 5 Tome
16 Str = 16 Str
16 Con = 15 Con + 1 Level (though if you plan on a longer campaign, put this in Wis too; you'll want to be able to bump to 30 Wis in 2 levels)
12 Dex = 12 Dex
13 Int = 13 Int (if you ever get a chance to age yourself, you can get to 16 Int this way; thanks to Timeless Body you'll suffer no negative consequences but you'll get +3 to all mental stats)
8 Cha = 8 Cha

[Eisfalken]

I recommend always prioritising casting stat on full casters, even if you also fight. Doubly so if you can also use it for AC. Without capped Wisdom, you'll have fewer spells per day which has direct implications on your combat prowess. It also makes your offensive spells far less impressive. You can buff your martial abilities with spells, but you can't get more spells or higher save DCs with martial abilities. Thus, in character creation, prioritise spells, spell slots, spell save DCs, etc. (conveniently all off Wis)

As such, I'll repeat my suggestion from the earlier:
28 Wis = 18 Wis + 2 Racial + 3 Levels + 5 Tome
16 Str = 16 Str
16 Con = 15 Con + 1 Level (though if you plan on a longer campaign, put this in Wis too; you'll want to be able to bump to 30 Wis in 2 levels)
12 Dex = 12 Dex
13 Int = 13 Int (if you ever get a chance to age yourself, you can get to 16 Int this way; thanks to Timeless Body you'll suffer no negative consequences but you'll get +3 to all mental stats)
8 Cha = 8 Cha

I second these sentiments. You HAVE to get Wis high here based on this build. It controls too much in this build to set it aside, and as if all that wasn't enough it also determines Perception, which is absolutely important if you don't want to get ambushed before you can either attack or cast a spell to keep from getting ganked.

If I may disagree, though, I think I'd swap Str and Dex around. Str isn't going to do him a hell of a lot of good once he grabs a bigger wild shape form (unless there's something funky in PF about it that gives some of your base Str to the animal form), but Dex is much more vital if he's still in normal form because it controls initiative, AC, and ranged attacks with his spells. I'm not comfortable putting him in melee if he is not in wild shape, since he has no gear.

But that is merely personal preference. I err on the side of caution when I'm "naked" (i.e. no gear).

[Eldariel]

If I may disagree, though, I think I'd swap Str and Dex around. Str isn't going to do him a hell of a lot of good once he grabs a bigger wild shape form (unless there's something funky in PF about it that gives some of your base Str to the animal form), but Dex is much more vital if he's still in normal form because it controls initiative, AC, and ranged attacks with his spells. I'm not comfortable putting him in melee if he is not in wild shape, since he has no gear.

But that is merely personal preference. I err on the side of caution when I'm "naked" (i.e. no gear).

PF Wildshape does actually change precisely that: it works off your base stats so your physicals matter (in essence, shapeshifting is a bunch of big Size-modifiers to your physicals). Thus if he wants to punch things, high Strength is convenient. That said, given the duration of his Wildshape (16 hours each, 7 times per day; two shifts is over a full day leaving 5 for utility shifting), the lack of gear and the existence of Natural Spell, he'd need a very good reason to be in a non-Wildshaped form pretty much ever.