Succubus Bard?

[danielxcutter]

Thought exercise.

I think that a Succubus Bard, with Snowflake Wardance and a few items and feats that benefit from a high Charisma modifier, but no PrCs or multiclassing would be good as either an NPC or a PC in a Evil party. I forget just how high their racial bonus to Charisma is, but I think it was pretty insane.

Is this a valid idea, and if it is, how would you make one? Maybe it's not a really powerful one, but it seems worth a shot in most campaigns, and absolutely awesome in social-focused games.

[John Longarrow]

Thought exercise.

I think that a Succubus Bard, with Snowflake Wardance and a few items and feats that benefit from a high Charisma modifier, but no PrCs or multiclassing would be good as either an NPC or a PC in a Evil party. I forget just how high their racial bonus to Charisma is, but I think it was pretty insane.

Is this a valid idea, and if it is, how would you make one? Maybe it's not a really powerful one, but it seems worth a shot in most campaigns, and absolutely awesome in social-focused games.

6 racial HD and ECL of 7 means with one level in Bard you'd be playing in a 14th level group.

Not a front liner by any stretch. Marshal + Bard though means you'd have a fantastic negotiator (motivate Charisma for a double dip on CHA) who is still able to pull off a few support roles for a party.

UMD also gets insane.

[Telonius]

The main problem with a Succubus Bard (as a PC) would be the shortage of levels to work with. Yes, they do get a +16 to Charisma, which is very nice; but 6 racial hit dice and a +6 LA means that first level of Bard, they're going to count as a 13th level character. You'll be pumping out high-DC saves, but the saves will all be on low-level spells. The character will only ever get spellcasting up to an 8th level character by EL 20. You'd have to do something like qualify for Ur Priest using your racial hit dice in order to get any kind of decent spellcasting, and that would make your charisma not very useful. You'd be very vulnerable to things like Holy Word and Dictum. (You can get into some seriously cheesy shenanigans like draining racial hit dice and replacing them with class levels, but at that point it's kind of off the rails for what's possible).

As an NPC, you'd have a bit more room to work with. They're only CR 7, so you could add 13 class levels.

[Rebel7284]

+16 Charisma and all those SLAs are nice, but with 6HD + 6LA you need to wait until level 13 just to take your first level in bard!

It can certainly work in an intrigue focused game, but it's pretty suboptimal since the charisma bonus barely makes up for the 6 blank levels.

If you wanted to play a powerful monster bard, I feel like the Gloura is a LOT better: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e
Only 2LA! Casting as a 7th Level bard is nice too! You can even finagle entry into Sublime Chord to get level-appropriate casting (after one level in Bard or Musical Paladin or something)! The charisma is only +6, but you get it to AC and Saves! Also, +10 Dex is VERY nice.

[Troacctid]

Seconding gloura instead. It's much more workable. Succubus bard is only really going to work on an NPC, where you run off of CR instead of ECL.

[AlmaPenzare]

I think played well a succubus can be a very fun character to play, especially in a game with good and evil aligned characters and a moral ambiguity to the succubus

[Eisfalken]

If you aren't totally married to the idea of a succubus chassis, but just want the "demonic seductress" concept, consider comings at this from the opposite angle: build out a normal human or elf bard with Abyssal Heritor and other feats to make yourself a quasi-succubus.

Alternately, consider a succubus with beguiler (from PH2). You get a really decent number of spells of the right kind for a sort of "magic diplomancer" build, plenty of skill points, etc.

[Telonius]

If you're going for a quasi-succubus, I put together a build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19121436&postcount=65) that tied for first in the Villainous Competition a while back. They work on CR, not ECL, so that throws it off a bit.

[Âmesang]

I took a succubus enemy from Shackled City and tossed some bard levels on her to help pass her off as a celestial (combining the Disguise skill with disguise self) so as to serve as a benevolent NPC, more than happy to help the PCs… until they eventually bring her to the final Test of the Smoking Eye and claim its prize for her own.

Liuvash, 9th-level bard succubus (https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/dnd/3e%20npc%20liuvash.pdf)

I thought the original treatment was poor (just another monster encounter) and wanted to play up the succubi's preference for deception, plus the party lacked a cleric so having her juicy Use Magic Device skill helped to keep them alive with regards to curative scrolls. I hoped that her skills and spells would be enough to hide her true form and abilities while roleplaying her as sweetly as I could to throw off suspicion (especially since they liked her more than Kaurophon), having her greater teleport away during the party's rest period to "watch over the area" (really to recover her own abilities in relative safety).

…but, as an inexperienced referee, I wasn't sure if asking for Spot or Sense Motive checks "at random," even if everyone in the party failed, would bring too much metagame suspicion to their minds (unless, I figured, I asked them to make such checks against every NPC they came across; the same worry came to mind in the event I'd have to ask for caster level checks against spell resistance).

[KillianHawkeye]

Alternatively, there's always the half-succubus.

The web enhancement for the 3.5 Monster Manual talks about customizing the Half-Fiend template based on exactly what type of fiend is the parent (since there are so many different kinds). For a half-succubus, you still get +8 to Charisma (among other things) and you're only dealing with a +4 Level Adjustment. That's still pretty high, but much less of a setback than the full succubus has.

[Telonius]

I took a succubus enemy from Shackled City and tossed some bard levels on her to help pass her off as a celestial (combining the Disguise skill with disguise self) so as to serve as a benevolent NPC, more than happy to help the PCs… until they eventually bring her to the final Test of the Smoking Eye and claim its prize for her own.

Liuvash, 9th-level bard succubus (http://dnd.schadenfreudestudios.com/npc%20liuvash.pdf)

I thought the original treatment was poor (just another monster encounter) and wanted to play up the succubi's preference for deception, plus the party lacked a cleric so having her juicy Use Magic Device skill helped to keep them alive with regards to curative scrolls. I hoped that her skills and spells would be enough to hide her true form and abilities while roleplaying her as sweetly as I could to throw off suspicion (especially since they liked her more than Kaurophon), having her greater teleport away during the party's rest period to "watch over the area" (really to recover her own abilities in relative safety).

…but, as an inexperienced referee, I wasn't sure if asking for Spot or Sense Motive checks "at random," even if everyone in the party failed, would bring too much metagame suspicion to their minds (unless, I figured, I asked them to make such checks against every NPC they came across; the same worry came to mind in the event I'd have to ask for caster level checks against spell resistance).



:smallbiggrin: I remember Liuvash! Actually had to re-stat her as well, when something similar happened. She successfully bluffed the party into thinking she'd been in the cathedral because she was curious, and had been detained by the other monsters there. The team entered as she was looking at one of the celestial songbooks upside-down. The Cleric proceeded to roll a 1 on his sense motive, and was sure she wanted to convert...

Eventually she started working with the depressed angel they encountered later; the two ruled the plane on behalf of the players when they had to go back to the Material.

[Nifft]

Her name might be Hummer.

[stanprollyright]

Thought exercise.

I think that a Succubus Bard, with Snowflake Wardance and a few items and feats that benefit from a high Charisma modifier, but no PrCs or multiclassing would be good as either an NPC or a PC in a Evil party. I forget just how high their racial bonus to Charisma is, but I think it was pretty insane.

Is this a valid idea, and if it is, how would you make one? Maybe it's not a really powerful one, but it seems worth a shot in most campaigns, and absolutely awesome in social-focused games.

It would definitely work for an NPC with insane saves. It would be really hard to make it work as an effective PC, but if you gestalt and use LA buyoff...


Alternatively, there's always the half-succubus.

The web enhancement for the 3.5 Monster Manual talks about customizing the Half-Fiend template based on exactly what type of fiend is the parent (since there are so many different kinds). For a half-succubus, you still get +8 to Charisma (among other things) and you're only dealing with a +4 Level Adjustment. That's still pretty high, but much less of a setback than the full succubus has.

This would be fantastic with LA buyoff. Can you swap vanilla half-fiend SLAs for Succubus ones?

[Frosty]

Her name might be Hummer.heh. Phrasing.

[danielxcutter]

It would definitely work for an NPC with insane saves. It would be really hard to make it work as an effective PC, but if you gestalt and use LA buyoff...

Hmmm... I'm hooked. Elaborate, please.


This would be fantastic with LA buyoff. Can you swap vanilla half-fiend SLAs for Succubus ones?

This is a good idea too.


Her name might be Hummer.

Sorry, didn't get it... What am I missing? :smallconfused:

[Frosty]

Sorry, didn't get it... What am I missing? :smallconfused:It's dirty joke. Don't worry about it :smalltongue:

[Crake]

If you want to talk about taking advantage of insane charisma, I made a yakuza succubus once, a level of battledancer (for cha to AC), 2 levels of paladin of slaughter (for cha to saves), and 5 levels in iaijutsu master for cha to each bonus dice from iaijutsu focus, cha to initiative, and also, because why not, int to AC

And because they're all unassociated classes for a succubus, the CR only went up 4 (1/2 for each level) so you have a CR11 with saves all in the mid 20s, an unarmored AC of 39, in the particular build I had it was 12 cha, 3 dex, 5 int and 9 natural.

Without an item boosting iaijutsu focus, you're getting on average 6-7d6 +6-7*12 damage on an iaijutsu strike. Add in a +15 iaijutsu focus item, you get it up to a guarenteed 8d6+96 minimum, getting the max 9d6+108 if you roll a 5 or higher. If you want to sqeeze in another level, I'd suggest taking warblade for emerald razor, or just taking martial study (you shouldn't need it more than once per encounter :smalltongue:)

Of course, this is much more from an NPC perspective, since as a PC she would be "level 20"

[stanprollyright]

Hmmm... I'm hooked. Elaborate, please.

Well...You get lots of spells per day with good DCs, nigh-irressitable bardic music, insane diplomacy, etc. All the stuff a succubus normally has, just way more of it. But you're so low level that you wouldn't last 10 mins against any appropriate CR encounter. It's a trick build, one that would work as an interesting NPC to throw at your unsuspecting party. It's pretty easily countered by immunity, Mindblank, Protection from Evil, etc., not to mention you're a 1st level character at ECL 13.

[danielxcutter]

Well...You get lots of spells per day with good DCs, nigh-irressitable bardic music, insane diplomacy, etc. All the stuff a succubus normally has, just way more of it. But you're so low level that you wouldn't last 10 mins against any appropriate CR encounter. It's a trick build, one that would work as an interesting NPC to throw at your unsuspecting party. It's pretty easily countered by immunity, Mindblank, Protection from Evil, etc., not to mention you're a 1st level character at ECL 13.

Oh... You meant save DCs, not save throws. Sorry. :smallredface:

How would a half-succubus be, then. I think that would be a lot better.

[Khedrac]

So much of this depends on the player.

We had our bard replaced by a succubus bard whilst playing the adventure path that ends up with fighting Demogorgon (forget the name).
Due to the player being a very good player (not necessarily optimizer but a good player) the rest of us did not know (he kept casting inspirational boost, rolling dice and telling us the spell had failed)...
We had some laughs - he got his hands on a vorpal whip and in one fight rolled 3 natural 20s to attack, but failed all three confirmation rolls...
We only discovered what had happened when, err,
he successfully claimed Demogorgon's crown after we killed him (I guessed why Iggwilv was hanging around not attacking and managed to beat her kill-steal with a nicely timed power word kill).
So our succubus bard ended up the prince of demons.
So yes, succubus bards can be very powerful...