Kensai weapons: Sneak intended?

[The Shadowdove]

Hey folks,

Just wondering whether or not kensai proficient strength weapons would also apply to sneak attacks?

Seeing as dex now determines damage, are they intended to be allowed in that regard?

Does being able to use a strength weapon as a dexterity weapon technically make it a finesse weapon?

Rules as intended vs rules as written?

Thank you in advance,

Dove

[Malifice]

Hey folks,

Just wondering whether or not kensai proficient strength weapons would also apply to sneak attacks?

Seeing as dex now determines damage, are they intended to be allowed in that regard?

Does being able to use a strength weapon as a dexterity weapon technically make it a finesse weapon?

Rules as intended vs rules as written?

Thank you in advance,

Dove

No.

Unless you pick a finesse weapon as your Kensai weapon of course.

[Giant2005]

Nope, that isn't RAW nor RAI.
The RAW is obvious - it doesn't make any mention of adding the necessary Finesse quality to the weapon.
As for the RAI, Crawford has responded to this query regarding Monks at least once, way back when 5e first came out.

[Greeniron]

kensai does not give weapons the finesse tag, so they do not get sneak attack from being kensai weapons.

[RickAllison]

No.

Unless you pick a finesse weapon as your Kensai weapon of course.

Indeed. Monk weapons didn't count as finesse, and neither do kensei weapons. Pick up a whip for some additional Sneak Attack capabilities if you like, OP.

[Coyote81]

However, you can use your Strength with a longbow/crossbow and still sneak attack with it since it is a ranged weapon.

[RSP]

Just expound upon the previous comment:

You can use Strength with Finesse weapons as well, and still get SA damage.

The only pertinent qualities for a weapon to determine if it is SA eligible, is whether it is Finesse or a ranged weapon; whether you use Str, Dex or something else as your modifier is immaterial.

[Arkhios]

As was said, just because an ability allows you to substitute Dexterity for Strength with a melee weapon, the ability does not in and of itself make the weapon as a finesse weapon. For the same reason unarmed strike - even as a monk - doesn't qualify for sneak attack. Only weapons that are inherently either finesse melee weapons or ranged weapons qualify for sneak attack. Nothing else, unless stated otherwise.

[Spacehamster]

However, you can use your Strength with a longbow/crossbow and still sneak attack with it since it is a ranged weapon.

Ranged weapon´s are not Kensai weapons, they clarified that later on that they did not intend for bow´s and such to be kensai weapons but rather melee weapons only.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Rules as written? Definitely not-- no finesse tag.
Rules as intended? Probably not-- Crawford said it doesn't work with Monk weapons.
Rules as make sense? Entirely reasonable; it's a relatively small damage boost that requires multi-classing.

[Socratov]

Rules as written? Definitely not-- no finesse tag.
Rules as intended? Probably not-- Crawford said it doesn't work with Monk weapons.
Rules as make sense? Entirely reasonable; it's a relatively small damage boost that requires multi-classing.

you lose 3 lvls of rogue (thus 2d6) to gain back the ability to use a 2d6 weapon instead of 1d8. You effectively lose 7 dmg on average to get back 2.5 dmg. However, it does open up the GWM feat (even if you stand to lose a feat to begin with) for that juicy +10. Which could potentially net a +5.5 dmg/round as soon as lvl 7 rolls around.

[Grod_The_Giant]

you lose 3 lvls of rogue (thus 2d6) to gain back the ability to use a 2d6 weapon instead of 1d8. You effectively lose 7 dmg on average to get back 2.5 dmg. However, it does open up the GWM feat (even if you stand to lose a feat to begin with) for that juicy +10. Which could potentially net a +5.5 dmg/round as soon as lvl 7 rolls around.
You can already get that by using Sharpshooter, and the consensus there seems to be that it's not worth risking all your sneak attack dice. <Shrug> And hey, three levels of main class progression for +5.5 damage seems alright to me, honestly. "Dealing slightly more damage" is about the least broken thing you can do in any edition of D&D.

Mind, I'm generally in favor of "sneak attack with anything but heavy weapons," so eh.

[Socratov]

You can already get that by using Sharpshooter, and the consensus there seems to be that it's not worth risking all your sneak attack dice. <Shrug> And hey, three levels of main class progression for +5.5 damage seems alright to me, honestly. "Dealing slightly more damage" is about the least broken thing you can do in any edition of D&D.

Mind, I'm generally in favor of "sneak attack with anything but heavy weapons," so eh.

I meant that in a way that I don't consider it world shattering, especially if it only comes online at either lvl 1 for variant human, or at lvl 7 for your rogue ASI. Especially if it takes a 3 lvl 'dip' in a generally not considered to be OP class.

AS for sharpshooter, it is kinda restricted to ranged weapons, which edge out at 1d10 (which benefits the thief most as he can bonus action reload the thing). And the kensai would enable that for rogues for melee weapons (which go up to 2d6). In addition to that the crit/kill effect gives a bonus action attack which is kinda neat.

I consider it like the expanded critical for the champion: RAW says that only a nat 20 can be an automatic hit and that the expanded critical is not an exception to that; I think that it's a load of bollocks and that this rule should get the same treatment: go for it and be a greatsword wielding rogue like Cloud.